Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've tried a couple of well-known downloadable progency calculators, but these programs, though pretty slick, focus on morphs and genetic makeups far more exotic than the project I have in the works. Specifically, following her shed today, my banded Miami female corn should be laying her eggs within the next two weeks; these eggs were sired by an Okeetee male with very dark, defined saddle borders. I was told by a corn snake breeder that this combination has been bred previously, but I cannot, alas, remember what he said about the offspring.

It is beyond the scope of my limited knowledge of genetics to know whether the banded aspect of the Miami locale is a known genetic trait or simply another locale-specific variation. Assuming it is the latter, neither snake is heterzygous for any other trait (I have the paperwork on one but not the other).

It's also worth noting that, since snakes are a passion and not a business in my life, the ultimate outcome isn't of any great financial significance to me. (Indeed, I'll post the offspring for sale in the KingSnake.com classifieds in an attempt only to recoup the expenses I incurred breeding the snakes, so stay tuned.)

I am guessing--and I stress this word--that a significant number of the offspring will resemble normal corn snakes from the Okeetee region. Whether any of the group are born with features resembling either the normal or (less likely) banded Miami locale corn snake is what I'm most curious to know.

Thanks for your help!
-----
"Arnold Elvis"

1.0 Abbott Okeetee corn snake - "Shane"
0.1 Banded Miami corn snake - "Miami"
1.0 Hypomelanistic red-tailed boa constrictor - "Escobar"
2.1 Wandering garter snakes - "McFly," "Lorraine," "Hunter"
1.0 Kankakee bull snake - Choosing to remain nameless at present

>>I've tried a couple of well-known downloadable progency calculators, but these programs, though pretty slick, focus on morphs and genetic makeups far more exotic than the project I have in the works. Specifically, following her shed today, my banded Miami female corn should be laying her eggs within the next two weeks; these eggs were sired by an Okeetee male with very dark, defined saddle borders. I was told by a corn snake breeder that this combination has been bred previously, but I cannot, alas, remember what he said about the offspring.
>>
>>It is beyond the scope of my limited knowledge of genetics to know whether the banded aspect of the Miami locale is a known genetic trait or simply another locale-specific variation. Assuming it is the latter, neither snake is heterzygous for any other trait (I have the paperwork on one but not the other).
>>
>>It's also worth noting that, since snakes are a passion and not a business in my life, the ultimate outcome isn't of any great financial significance to me. (Indeed, I'll post the offspring for sale in the KingSnake.com classifieds in an attempt only to recoup the expenses I incurred breeding the snakes, so stay tuned.)
>>
>>I am guessing--and I stress this word--that a significant number of the offspring will resemble normal corn snakes from the Okeetee region. Whether any of the group are born with features resembling either the normal or (less likely) banded Miami locale corn snake is what I'm most curious to know.
>>
>>Thanks for your help!
>>-----
>>"Arnold Elvis"
>>

well, they will all be normals unless there are hidden hets you are not aware of. Now as for looks....it's hard to say but what I think you will have are basic looking normals with a few leaning a little more towards the grey end of the spectrum and a few more towrds the reder end. Or a rather normal inbetween The banded look is selectively bred so when you breed it to a normal pattern you are basically starting over. it's possible there will be a few expanded saddles but I wouldn't expect anything significant
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

>>>>I've tried a couple of well-known downloadable progency calculators, but these programs, though pretty slick, focus on morphs and genetic makeups far more exotic than the project I have in the works.

the reason you don't think you are getting anything on a predictor is because they are built to recognize normal (okeetee) to normal (Miami) gives you normal
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Mr. Johnson,

Thanks for both of your replies. I was pretty sure both of my corn snakes were "normal" as far as genetics were concerned, but I figured I'd ask, just to be safe. Also, I had been secretly hoping an enthusiast like yourself would speculate as to the looks of what I hope will be the clutch that hatches later this year, so thanks, too, for giving me your take. Unless nature surprises me, it sounds like I'll have a more or less ordinary-looking litter of corns on my hands, which, given the snake's dominance of the CBB trade, may make it impossible for me to even give them away. Perhaps one or two unusual babies will take me by surprise.

Again, thanks very much for your reply.
-----
"Arnold Elvis"

0.1 Trans-Pecos rat snake - "Demi"
1.0 Abbott Okeetee corn snake - "Shane"
0.1 Banded Miami corn snake - "Miami"
1.0 Hypomelanistic red-tailed boa constrictor - "Escobar"
2.1 Wandering garter snakes - "McFly," "Lorraine," "Hunter"
1.0 Kankakee bull snake - "Nelson"
1.0 Eastern (chain) kingsnake - "Winston"

Why did you decide to breed these two in the first place? Were you hoping to get a Miami with broader borders? Or perhaps an Okeetee with the banding pattern? If either was the case you may actually see something like that appear. However here is the problem with these breedings. 1) it is really no longer an Okeetee or a Miami since these are supposed to be locality snakes which have been line bred. Though I'm sure there are a lot of things floating around in many lines. 2) you will have to keep all the babies and raise them up for at least 6 months to a year untill their true colors start comung thru. 3)You will end up with a lot of snakes that don't show the traits you are looking for and will be very hard to sell or give away.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Well, I can't say there really was a reason other than the fact that I've loved both snakes for years and decided to give breeding a shot this year. (I know there are those out there that think people like me should stay out of the breeding hobby, and I'm not saying I entirely disagree.) However, before I made the decision, I did the most research I could, including speaking to someone who had crossed these two locales in the past. In a nutshell, I am hoping to get a few specimens with the broader bands you mentioned, as this was the trait deemed most appealing by the individual I spoke to who'd bred the aforementioned locales in the past.

I do realize the possibility of being "stuck" with a bunch of more or less normal-looking babies, and I'm not really sure what to do about that other than to try an expo or two and list the most exceptional offspring through this site. At this point, eggs will be laid any day now, and I'm not going to let them die (or mistreat the youngsters) because of my lack of knowledge, or, more accurately, the so-called "average" appearance of the offspring.
-----
"Arnold Elvis"

0.1 Trans-Pecos rat snake - "Demi"
1.0 Abbott Okeetee corn snake - "Shane"
0.1 Banded Miami corn snake - "Miami"
1.0 Hypomelanistic red-tailed boa constrictor - "Escobar"
2.1 Wandering garter snakes - "McFly," "Lorraine," "Hunter"
1.0 Kankakee bull snake - "Nelson"
1.0 Eastern (chain) kingsnake - "Winston"

Hey that's cool I just wanted to let you know all that was involved. I think people get irritated because the markets are floode right now and the economy sucks so they don't want to see anymore snakes competing with theirs. It's a learning experience from start to finnish.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yeah, sometimes I wonder what someone as novice as me could do to take profits from a mid- to large-scale commercial breeder. I've told friends and family from the outset I'd only sell the offspring to cover the costs incurred to breed the parents and feed the young; as mentioned, snakes are a passion and not a source of income for me, though I also don't look down on anyone that does derive income from their sale (provided the sale is ethical, of course).

I also hope you didn't think I was reacting negatively to your message, as that was not my intention at all. Although I've been field-herping for about the past 20 years, this is my first year as "private snake breeder," and there is lots for me to learn. Back in the day, a good morning was seeing a dozen Nerodia sipedon; now, I spend my nights obsessing about feeding schedules and temperatures. Oh, and I have a two-year-old son, too.
-----
"Arnold Elvis"

0.1 Trans-Pecos rat snake - "Demi"
1.0 Abbott Okeetee corn snake - "Shane"
0.1 Banded Miami corn snake - "Miami"
1.0 Hypomelanistic red-tailed boa constrictor - "Escobar"
2.1 Wandering garter snakes - "McFly," "Lorraine," "Hunter"
1.0 Kankakee bull snake - "Nelson"
1.0 Eastern (chain) kingsnake - "Winston"

Breeding is usually the next step when involved in the hobby. The question of "can I do this?" pops up and its almost like a test of your husbandry skills and understanding of the animals you are keeping. Its exciting to watch the eggs incubate and see the babies pip out of the eggs. Its another level or aspect of the hobby many want to experience. Don't feel bad because you took the plunge to breed and test your skills. Don't feel bad because you will produce a clutch of normal corns either. Some folks want plain old vanilla normal corns! I sold more $10 and $15 normals at local shows than I did my more expensive morphs. However, heres the reality on the money making thing. Keep it in perspective that it may actually cost you MORE money to sell off your clutch. With the cost of ad space here on kingsnake.com, or table space at a local show, money you make on one clutch may not justify the cost. In other words, you could spend over say over $100 in ad or table costs, to sell $50 worth of animals!! I would get the babies feeding, then shop them around the local pet shops to see if you can make a few bucks, or trade for other supplies. Good luck, and by all means, have fun!!

KevinM

Very true about the costs of advertising and renting a table at a show. A table at a show can range anywhere between $40 to $150 or more for really big shows. The reptile shows around me rent tables for $90 for a one day event (or at least the last time I checked that was the cost). I live in Canada so the prices often are fairly different for things like herps. At shows I don't see many normal corn snakes, sometimes there are adult normals usually around $100-$150 depending on sex and whether they are het for anything.

Pet stores around here sell normals, aneries and amels for close to $200 (way over priced if you ask me, about three times as much as seen at reptile shows. I bought a ghost corn years ago for $65 at a show, then a few years later I paid I think $35 or $45 for a snow corn.

I was selling the babies of my two normal het anery corn snakes for $20 each, unsexed and the anery babies for $40. I mostly wanted to sell them quickly than make any money. However, my costs to keep the babies and feed them till they sold, wasn't very high so I did make money. Having a good source of live and frozen pinky mice is where most of the cost of having baby corns will come from. That and setting up the first incubator though you can typically order a basic hovabator incubator online for about $50 (haven't priced these in awhile..so they may be more or less).

To house the baby corns I just used sandwich containers. I can get about 5 of these for a dollar at any dollar store and they work well for hatchling corn snakes. I just arranged them around the edges of a heating pad. Not the most efficient way as a hatchling rack would be more space saving but it worked for me as I didn't have a huge clutch from my corns (I don't think I kept the male in with the female long enough as more than half of her eggs were infertile but all the good looking eggs hatched fine.)

For substrate and water, I used a folded piece of paper towel and a bottle cap for water. More times than not the bottle cap gets knocked over but this could be prevented by just gluing the cap to the bottom of the container. Or using double sided tape.
-----
PHLdyPayne

miami x okee = normals.....

some greyish some orangish some with and some without big black borders......all different shades of normals....

sorry....

good luck....
-----
.......
.......
......JY

First I want to point out I am no expert on corn snake genetics...but from what I understand Miami's and Okeetees are just variations of the normal/wildtype pattern based on locales. Blending the two together is likely to result in a mix of both the parent's appearances as most indicated in the replies.

As for finding good homes for the babies, you may not have as much trouble as you think...all depends on your area. Corn snakes make great beginner pets and are still very popular. I bred my two normal corn snakes (and neither were any particular locale in appearance either, though one did have an Okeetee'ish look to him). Like you the main reason I decided to do it was to see what the offspring will look like (previous owner of the two snakes had indicated they had a clutch which produced 'interesting' offspring'. He didn't incubate the eggs himself so couldn't give me more details at the time). It turned out both normal corns were het for anery.) I was able to sell all of the babies though it did take some time to do so. I kept one of the normal offspring and one anery.

Wait till the eggs hatch and see what you get. Normal coloration seems to be rather random in how it comes out in offspring though I expect most will be a diluted form of the parents but always possible some will more strongly favor the mother or father. And you never know, maybe both parents are carriers for a morph.

Good luck and post pic when they hatch.
-----
PHLdyPayne

>>First I want to point out I am no expert on corn snake genetics...but from what I understand Miami's and Okeetees are just variations of the normal/wildtype pattern based on locales. Blending the two together is likely to result in a mix of both the parent's appearances as most indicated in the replies.
>>
>>As for finding good homes for the babies, you may not have as much trouble as you think...all depends on your area. Corn snakes make great beginner pets and are still very popular. I bred my two normal corn snakes (and neither were any particular locale in appearance either, though one did have an Okeetee'ish look to him). Like you the main reason I decided to do it was to see what the offspring will look like (previous owner of the two snakes had indicated they had a clutch which produced 'interesting' offspring'. He didn't incubate the eggs himself so couldn't give me more details at the time). It turned out both normal corns were het for anery.) I was able to sell all of the babies though it did take some time to do so. I kept one of the normal offspring and one anery.
>>
>>Wait till the eggs hatch and see what you get. Normal coloration seems to be rather random in how it comes out in offspring though I expect most will be a diluted form of the parents but always possible some will more strongly favor the mother or father. And you never know, maybe both parents are carriers for a morph.
>>
>>Good luck and post pic when they hatch.
>>-----
>>PHLdyPayne

along these lines
It can still be a lot easier to get rid of normals at a nice cheap price then the higher end stuff.
A lot of beginners to the hobby want something cheap (price wise) to start with.
Nothing wrong with that.
keeps an outlet for the normals, anerys and amels going
good luck

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____