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Cliff notes, please

54podge Apr 26, 2010 08:25 AM

doing a search brought up waaaaaaay too many unrelated topics, so I will ask for you to add whatever info you can. I have one clutch of brooks eggs, and I want to incubate them properly. I have them in a shoebox (plastic), with the sphagum mass they were laid in. The moss is damp, but not wet. I sealed the holes in the shoebox. The eggs are atop the moss, with a sprinkling of moss over the top of them. I have the shoebox on the top shelf of a closet where temps should be fine for Brooks. My questions are as such:

1) I have perlite. should I remove the moss and use perlite instead, or a mix of both, or leave them as is?

2)do I cover them at all?

3) can anyone supply a pic of their incubation setup?
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender Brooks
0.1 C/B Snow Brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King (RIP)
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

Replies (17)

tspuckler Apr 26, 2010 08:32 AM

I half-bury eggs in damp perlite. I've have many eggs go bad in sphagnum moss. I've even seperated clutches and put half in sphagnum and half in perlite - sphagnum eggs fared poorly. I use airholes in some of the Tupperware containers that I incubate eggs in, in others, there are no airholes - but I open the containers once a week to allow for air circulation.

Northern Pines that I hatched out last year:
Third Eye
Third Eye

Bluerosy Apr 26, 2010 10:54 AM

1) I have perlite. should I remove the moss and use perlite instead, or a mix of both, or leave them as is?

Move them to perliet asap.

2)do I cover them at all?

Yes! the cool thing about perlite it allows lots of airflow to the eggs. Just make sure when you add water that it is not to wet. DO NOT add water and squeeze the perlite like people do with vermiculite. Just add water and stir. if it is to wet just add a bit of dry perlite ontop of the wet. as long as the eggs don't come in contact with water.

3) can anyone supply a pic of their incubation setup?

no pics, but temperature is important. I never used a incubator. no need for colubrid eggs and perlite. The perlite is magical as i used other mediums in the past and since the perlite was around it made a big difference in mold, hatch rate etc. I can't say enought about it.

Peanut butter male :

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www.Bluerosy.com

DMong Apr 26, 2010 11:42 AM

Yeah, I would get them onto vermiculite, and/or perlite ASAP!

I have always used vermiculite with great success, but in the past few years, I have been mixing some perlite in with the vermiculite(about a 1:4 ratio of perlite to vermiculite), as I believe the large perlite chunks help with keeping the medium loamy and fluffed and allows for better air circulation around the entire egg.

The key to using vermiculite is to JUST add enough water to it gradually so that it just clumps together when squeezed with your fist. Doing this gradually allows this to be achieved very well. You definitely don't want it too moist, or the eggs will absorb it and swell like a sponge, killing the embryo inside.

I always melt a few air holes in the plastic containers a couple of inches apart, just to make sure the air doesn't get too stagnant, or doesn't get enough oxygen to the eggs even though some seal the containers and only open them now and then to achieve this. I figure that were a snake lays it's eggs, they are never completely sealed from the air anyway. The only real reason that many don't add some air holes is to keep more of the moisture in the container longer. With just a few 1/8th inch holes every melted in with a small soldering gun, this still does quite a good job of letting the eggs "breathe", while still retaining lots of humidity too.

I would shoot for a target temp of 80-81 degrees, and put a thermometer inside on the medium too. This way there is NO guessing as to what the temp is, and allows a bit of a "buffer" if the temp should rise a bit for a number of reasons during the long incubation.

When I have a HUGE pile of eggs that are in one large clump, I often ring out real well a bit of sphagnum moss, fluff it up some, and drape it over the pile of eggs to help ensure the eggs get enough moisture to them. Of course, some of these shots were after the moss was removed from over them for the photo. But again, Ionly do this with tall piles of eggs. Most other times, low piles of eggs will absorb enough moisture from the neighboring eggs, so it is really not needed in these situations, sort of like a sponge would gradually absorb water if left next to something moist.

The key to all this is to watch the eggs, and make sure they don't start to dimple in(too dry), or swell too much(too moist). The eggs themselves really are a great indicator as to how they are doing during their development.

Oh, BTW, you will notice some ink pen lines on top of some of these eggs too. This is so if they are taken out once in a great while to re-moisten the medium, I will ALWAYS be able to keep them oriented in the exact same position they were in before so the embryo isn't killed inside. Snake eggs are way different than some other types of eggs where it is a GOOD idea to turn them. You definitely do NOT want this to happen with any looose snake eggs..LOL!

good luck with things!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

54podge Apr 26, 2010 12:18 PM

Thanks everyone. This is EXACTLY the info I was looking for!
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender Brooks
0.1 C/B Snow Brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King (RIP)
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

rtdunham Apr 26, 2010 12:58 PM

you're fine. I hatched all my rare stuff back in the day using exactly that method. I'd cover them just loosely but don't think that's necessary. after a few days some condensation should form on the insides of the container. if that dries up lightly mist the moss again to return to that state.

open the box every two-three days and use the lid to fan in some fresh air, then re-seal.

btw I'm assuming you're using the stringy kind of peat, not the flaky stuff.

td

ps: liked the wild-caught wife reference.

54podge Apr 26, 2010 03:15 PM

you caught the (ex)wife reference, eh? It was her or the snakes, and man do I REALLY like snakes!
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender Brooks
0.1 C/B Snow Brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King (RIP)
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab (RIP)
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife (recently returned to the wild!)

54podge Apr 26, 2010 03:14 PM

I was wrong, it was vermiculite. Anyway, I moistened it to a point where I can barely squeeze drops out if I really squeeze it. Am now thinking I may have covered them too much, but thought I'd ask the pro's. If you can't tell, I am a little neurotic about it because these will be my first egg-born babies ever! Would hate to lose even one because of my lack of experience. Thanks again to all of you.



-----
1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender Brooks
0.1 C/B Snow Brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King (RIP)
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab (RIP)
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife (recently returned to the wild!)

54podge Apr 26, 2010 03:37 PM

I hope my husbandry is better than my speeling!
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender Brooks
0.1 C/B Snow Brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King (RIP)
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab (RIP)
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife (recently returned to the wild!)

a153fish Apr 26, 2010 04:03 PM

Yeah I wouldn't cover the eggs so much. About halfway is good. If you dont have Perlite don't go nuts I've used Vermiculite both Coarse and fine over the years and had good results. Temps and moisture is the two key factors. I just use a plastic shoe box and keep them in a warm room with a digital Thermometer and just pay attention that it doesn't get too hot or too cool. I personally don't drill holes just because if you get a bad egg and it spoils flies may lay eggs on it and they could spread to the good eggs. But I do make one small hole. Just for my nerves, lol. I guess the bugs could get in thru that one small hole too! My point is there are variations and all work pretty good. But the two key points are Temps and humidity. Good luck!
Image
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

a153fish Apr 26, 2010 04:07 PM

I forgot to mention and I didn't see anyone else mention it either. (I don't think) Make sure there are no additives in the Perlite or Vermiculite! Lately it's getting harder and harder to find either one without additives and fertilizers like Miracle Grow.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

DMong Apr 26, 2010 06:07 PM

Absolutely!!,....I was thinking about me not mentioning about the fertilizer additives earlier too!. A DEFINITE avoid situation!!

BTW,....yes,.the eggs are FARRRR too burried!. Just put a little dimpled "cradle" in the vermiculite to nestle each egg into then push it around a bit if needed so that most of the egg is exposed. I have a feeling that your medium is probably way too wet too. The idea is to add the water a tiny bit at a time while mixing it, so that it JUST barely clumps together in one wad when you squeeze it together, NOT so much that you see water dripping out when you squeeze it.

Add some more dry vermiculite if this is the case until it barely mashes together and stays that way without falling apart. The LAST thing you want to do is drown the things before they even get going!..LOL!

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

KINGBOA Apr 26, 2010 07:20 PM

Thanks for all of this precious info. I was probably going to be asking these same questions in about 3 weeks. My female MBK is swollen like a tick! You guys might remember me driving all of you guys nuts asking questions about breeding behavior.

DMong Apr 26, 2010 08:51 PM

"You guys might remember me driving all of you guys nuts asking questions about breeding behavior"

How could we possibly forget??

messin' with ya of course!..LOL!

Good luck with the eggs man!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

kingsnake1 Apr 28, 2010 12:18 PM

I use sealing tupperware containers and cut 1" holes in the lid. I then use a gluestick and cover the hole with fine screen to keep out any fruitflies, etc. but allow a little airflow. It has worked great for me. A little airflow, no insects and it keeps the humidity in a proper range.

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Greg Jackson

bluerosy Apr 26, 2010 07:20 PM

To wet and too covered up. Vermiculite should just be hardly damp.

I still highly reccomend perlite over vermiculite. I used vermiculite for decades before Perlite came out. Perlite is more forgiving with the wet dry mixture. I also find that vermiculite attracts insects and mold much easier.

The main thing is the eggs are in a humid enviroment (showbox). I see far to many people think the eggs must be touching wet substrate and really it just has to have some humidity in the box.
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www.Bluerosy.com

54podge Apr 26, 2010 08:09 PM

Thanks again, everyone. Last year on my first attempt, it was brought to my attention about the additives so we are good there. Double checked the moisture after it set for a few hours and I think it is fine because it barely held together and no way was I getting any moisture from it. set the eggs on top of the medium and "packed" in a little around the sides. I think we're good.

Again, thanks!
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender Brooks
0.1 C/B Snow Brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King (RIP)
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab (RIP)
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife (recently returned to the wild!)

BassSnatcher34 Apr 26, 2010 05:13 PM

Just from my experience of hatching out kingsnake eggs, I just left them in the damp moss with a lid and a couple holes for ventalation. Key is to make sure the moss is damp but not wet. Misting a couple times a week and putting them in the top of a closet where it stays kinda warm. Checking them often throughout the process. This is my personal experiences only...

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