Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My female hypo stillwater bull snake laid infertile eggs three years in a row using two different males, i spoke to the guy i got the original pair from as babies and he told me that i didn't cool them at low enough temps during bromation, what temps do you guys cool your males to have success? i cooled them and bred them pretty much the same way i breed my corn snakes, my temps were anywhere from 57 on cool days to 65 only for a few days, because i used two different males I'm starting to believe that the female is at fault.
thanks
Greg

Sounds like your temps were fine during brumation. A few minor fluctuations here and there should not have any ill affects. Some Stillwater hypo bulls have physical and/or neurological abnormalities from being such an inbred morph and infertility could be one possibility. The chance of two infertile males is slim. Try her again next year leaving her in brumation an extra month or so. Rich

Thanks for your reply Rich.

With all due respect I have to disagree or at very least request back up proof regarding your statement that "Some Stillwater hypo bulls have physical and/or neurological abnormalities from being such an inbred morph". It is a relatively young morp and I would venture that many of the "stillwaters" out there are mixed.....

I am not buying it... I have talked many stillwater owners who have not experienced any issues with inbreeding or loss of vitality and vigor. I have noted two owners who floated this idea and in both cases I am fairly convinced that the issues with the individual snakes were the result of disease pathogens and not genetic in nature based on the presentation of the said conditions. In both case they were f2 and f3 animals. That is a fairly small sample size, N=2. I think that there may be a tendency for keepers to rush to such conclusions in the absence of solid diagnostic information....

At any rate that is a broad statement and as of yet I am not aware of any heritable abnormalities..... what is your experience and what have you heard?

I am open to getting "schooled" regarding this topic so please share any info you are privy to.

The big danger of making such a seemingly unsubstantiated statement is that you start the undercurrents of a false rumor that gets perpetuated.......

With regards to a female that seems infertile could there any other reasons this might occur? Of course.....

I am relieved to hear that. Another species, knoblochi kingsnakes, have been prone to have kinks in their spines due to the original gene pool of captive animals being very small, and the kink tendency seemed to be endemic to that group.

Here is an interesting thread about hypo bulls:
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1696049,1696049
From reading that one could possibly assume that the original gene pool was very small, but if the snakes were out bred since then, maybe there would not be much tendency towards defects.

If I had an infertile female I would obtain another female, and keep the first one just as a pet. There might be more wrong with her than just the infertility.

Here is a pic of her, nothing else wrong with her other than i had no luck breeding her, to bad she would have made some awesome babies, might just sell her as a pet.

Man, that is too bad she seems to be infertile as she is stunning! She will be a great pet, though.

Thanks, it just sucks to be starting out with hatchlings again, i know i will never get one that looks as nice as she does.

Maybe give her one more chance with the egg thing, as well as raising up another female. I feel your pain on how long it takes to get a breedable female! And to get such a beauty again...maybe the third time will be a charm.

Some snakes (species from areas with overall cooler average temps) benefit from a longer cool period, but not necessarily cooler than what you are doing now.

Also there is the question of timing when the pair is introduced. Try cooling the snakes together all Winter if you do not do that now, and keep them together into the Spring.
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Mark

Thanks Mark, I've tried cooling them down together and this year i even left the male in with the female the whole time after brumation, he bred her at least 5 times and still nothing, i have decided to just start out fresh with some 2010 hatchlings when they become available, just stinks to have to wait 3 or more years again before i could even attempt to breed them but stillwaters are my favorite snake and worth the wait.
Greg

Sorry about that, must be frustrating. Oh well, you'll have new animals to look forward to, and a big ole female pet. They are awesome to behold.
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Mark

What size were your specimens when you received them? Were they wild caught or captive bred? There is a chance your female might simply be burnt out. Old specimens sometimes get to a point where they stop producing fertile clutches.

I got her as a baby in 05 and tried to breed her in 08, and 09 to the first male that i bought with her as a pair, when the first breeding did not work out i bought an 07 male in 08 and raised him up and bred him to her this year and still nothing, i checked the first males sperm on a microscope and it pretty good, i didn't get to check the second male but at this point it's 3 years of trying to breed her with two different males, i think it's the female at fault.
Greg