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I'm really interested in finding some information about this morph. I've done searches and have found nothing but this: www.generalexotics.com/snakes-milk-snakes-c-6_14/sinaloan-clown-milk-snake-p-969 and it's not really helpful.

The reason I ask is that I got an adult male for next to nothing a couple of months back and was wondering what one should expect when plugging him into a couple of normal females next season? Is this a simple recessive or a line bred trait? If this is just recessive why aren't there more of these?

Any information given would be greatly appreciated.

Can you post a photo of your animal? Does it resemble the one in the link you posted? The animal in the link is slightly unusual for a sinaloae, but not overly. The pattern aberrancies could be due to incubation conditions, genetics, or crossing some other species or subspecies into the mix (generally frowned upon around here).

-Cole

here's a couple of pics of him:

img641.imageshack.us/i/p4270064n.jpg/

img404.imageshack.us/i/p4270063.jpg/

img42.imageshack.us/i/p4270062.jpg/

img25.imageshack.us/i/p4270061.jpg/

As you can see he's definitely a bit weird, but still a sinaloan. I'm also pretty sure he's not a hybrid or 'intergrade' as Nathan Wells had a thread on Faunaclassifieds two years back with a 'clown'/splotched sinaloan for sale.

From what can be seen visually, my 'clown' has excessive white around the mouth (like a clowns lip makeup) and red leeching into the white bands dorsally and ventrally with the black banding fading and being very grainy.

So, again, anyone who knows something about this phase/morph please respond with any information you have.

the term "clown" has been placed on many snakes and yes,its usually beacause of the amount of white on the lips and face and or the tail.
Its really hard to say if your snake is in fact just a siniloan or not without some photos of the parents that produced it.

Bottom line is if you are looking to match it up you would be better off just finding a abeerant female or just plain normal and seeing what you get.I wouldn't call the offspring siniloans unless you do some homework and kind find out if it has no other ssp. in it.

L8r Shannon

I'm planning on plugging him into an albino "sinaloan" and a female of questionable genetics (pretty sure she's nelsoni/campbelli).

As far as records go, although I keep extensive notes, pics, charts, etc. on all my snakes, the seller I got this guy from told me that I was at least the third person to own him this year and that he had received him in trade and had no other information other than age/sex.

It would have been nice to know more about him, but for what was paid, how well he tolerates handling, and how well he feeds he's been worth it. At least for what I got him for.

Still, no one has answered my main question: is 'clown' a typical recessive or the result of extensive selective 'line' breeding?

To answer your question.........its yes and no.LOL.....
You could call the Applegate splotched siniloans "clown" and yes, they are simple recessive but there is no way to say if what you have is or isn't cause we don't even know anything about it.

You could breed him to a normal and hold back some babies breed them together and some females back to him and if you get the same look then you could consider it recessive.If its a "line bred trait" you would need another one from that line to re-produce that look.

L8r Shannon

Very well said Shannon...perfect.

The name "Clown morph" is sending up a red flag to me regarding the purity of the animal for some reason. The snake in question could be a hybrid and just het for something recessive, like amelanism. The name just reminds me of animals that are known hybrids like Imperial kings, Jungle corns, etc. Try a google search on clown kings and see what you get.

KevinM

To be quite honest, I see several things about these that make me highly suspicious as to their actually being genuine sinaloae. And I'm not talking about nelsoni being in the mix in this case either.

The fact that Nathan had some very aberrant "clown" sinaloans really doesn't necessarily mean that these are anything close to being the same thing as his at all, just that they are called "clown" phase by someone, which is not unheard of in this hobby to give something different an already familiar off-beat name to help it out with public acceptance a bit.

The extremely wide temporal band on this thing, and the way the white inner triad rings flair out at the base are just a couple characteristics that are highly questionable to me here. The huge light snout seems a bit out of place too, but there are some genuine lines of sinaloae that do indeed have fairly similar characteristics, namely animals from Cosala, Mexico are well-known for this. So that alone doesn't necessarily mean the weird snout absolutely cannot be a very exaggerated trait of sinaloae. Don't misunderstand this though, yours is DEFINITELY in no way a Cosala Sinaloan either to say the very least, as they are some of the most perfect, text-book examples of real-deal sinaloae there are with extremely wide red body rings, and very low ring counts due to this this. But when all this is considered and put together, it just doesn't look right to me.

The other familiar lines of splotched, striped, and crazy-patterned aberrant "clown" type sinaloans are extremely whacked out, but this one simply looks like a cross of some kind to be honest. Not trying to sound nasty here or anything, but the animal just looks much more like a cross to me, rather than an aberrant genuine Sinaloan is all.

regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I'm fine with him being a triangulum mutt, as he'll be plugged into two other mutts next year (an albino 'sinaloan' and a female I'm pretty sure is a nelsoni/campbelli cross).

The entire point of this thread has apparently been missed by all responders. I'm just wondering if "clown" is a simple recessive or the result of line breeding for a specific look.

I can, of course, just wait 16 months to find out when any little buggers hatch out - but was hoping that someone here may have worked with similar genetics before and may know if his odd pattern may pop up in a f1 generation.

AWESOME!!.......

For sure dude!,......can never have too many mutts being produced and randomly scattered about in this hobby....LMFAO!

Can't wait to see more!!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You forgot to add the [sarcasm][/sarcasm] brackets.

Since sarcasm is more easily read through vocal inflections you may want to try to do that to avoid any confusion next time.

[sarcasm] Yes, I will make a point to do that next time[/sarcasm]

LOL!!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

LOL!!!

I personally have no problem with the Hybrids and Mutts, many are very cool looking...its when they get sold as pure that things get messed up!
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

agreed. and anything that comes from this pairing, or from me in general, will have as detailed of records as i can provide.

>>The entire point of this thread has apparently been missed by all responders. I'm just wondering if "clown" is a simple recessive or the result of line breeding for a specific look.

Brian, I think some of the vague responses here are because there's uncertainty about WHAT a "clown" sinaloan is. Since people aren't sure what it is, they can't characterize the pattern of inheritance. But there's a very, very high likelihood it's not a simple recessive. Almost none of the pattern morphs are (striped red rats are an exception, for example, if i recall correctly).

Yeah, you're probably right.

Thanks to all who thoughtfully replied.

Hey Brian, I have to agree with Terry on this point as well. I believe most of the abherant patterned milks like the crazy hondurans and oreo pueblans are line bred animals with hit or miss results showing up in the babies. Not a simple recessive trait with known results occurring like striped corns, or amelanistic animals.

i was told by kim bell that the clown phase morph originated from their lines. just popped up one generation.

in addition to the white 'lips' they typically have reddish tongues instead of black.

http://www.reptmart.com/p-2225-clown-phase-sinaloan-milk-snake-for-sale.aspx

The problem with your question is that the term "Clown" is not widely used for Sinaloans, in fact I personally have never heard of a Clown Sinaloan...ever.

I breed Vanishing Pattern, Splotched/Striped, Hypo E, T Positive Albino, and normal Albino Sinaloans...I would call any of them clowns.

Yours, if it is in fact all Sinaloan, looks like it has a small hint of VP in it to me, as that sometimes makes the bellies striated like yours.

As far as it being pure, I will leave that to the experts on here. I only buy from the best like Shannon Brown, and then I know what I am getting.

I also admit, that a cheap snake that looks cool is hard to pass up!!
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

Sorry, I meant to say that I would NOT call any of my morphs "CLOWN"...
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

may actually be.....

A few years back Justin Mitcham, of Fort Worth, produced a few odd animals from Applegate Splotched sinaloans that were quite unique in their patterning and coloration. With this incredible yet exaggerated look these particular splotched animals visually had, he coined them "clown" sinaloans.
A short time later, while focusing on producing splotched albinos, I also hatched out a few animals from double het breedings (splotched X albino) that somewhat shared the look of these weird snakes Justin had produced.
Duplicating the look has been hit or miss for me personally but I do know that in the animals Justin was working with, the uniqueness of the babies was visually more enhanced than that of the adults. A gentlemen up in the northeast is now working with Justin's group and I still continue to work in hopes of producing more of these snakes.
Most are unaware of these or have never heard the name given because the genetics, like many other things we see in this hobby, are not cut and dry. No one wants to simply throw a name on a mutation unless it is known for certain what can and cannot be done with it. It could even be that nothing really strange is floating around in these and they are simply as aberrant as aberrant looking Applegate splotched sinaloans can get. Refining these overtime may help to get a better insight into what they really are. But regardless, no matter what they could be considered, they are still pretty spectacular.
Nathan Wells

Pictured below are of a few nice looking adults and of some of the unique offspring

WOW...looks like you snuck into my Snake room and took pictures of my Splotched Sinaloan project! With the various Pied portions that appear on these snakes Heads and Tails, there are SO many different looks form the same clutch.

Still, never heard anybody call a Sinaloan a "Clown"...but I am not a frequenter of the larger shows.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

I couldn't agree more with you Scott. The unusual patterns and markings along with the variability within a given clutch really make these guys fun to work with.

Thank you Nathan.

Much obliged for taking the time to educate and dazzle us with those pictures.

I purchased the snake in question from Marc Papiernik who told me that it was a pet snake that he had gotten in trade last fall and really didn't know much more than that about it.

All I know is that he's calm and a decent eater. Well, that and I'm looking forward to seeing what he throws out next season.

And thanks again to all who've taken the time to reply.