Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone,

I've been very fortunate to not have dealt with RI in any of my 2 dozen snakes since I picked up on the hobby 4 years ago.

Sadly, I discovered my newest member looks like she has a RI last night with some bubbles forming around the mouth and wheezing this morning. (... why does it have to the pied female... why?) I've only had her for a week. I think the RI might be the result her peeing in her bag when she was shipped accompanied by the lack of a heat pack and of course stress. I've contacted the breeder already and am just waiting for a response to see if he is aware of any RI issues in his collection. Since I don't know what caused it, I'm not blaming anyone.

I've hunted through forums and googled everything. The vet appointment is later this afternoon with a reptile specialist. Very fortunate to have one so close to home. She is quarantined in a 20g long tank with newspaper, a hide spot and a water bowl (on the cool end). The hot spot is in the low 90s. I'm reading that lower humidity and high heat helps. Upon further reading, there also seems to be a number of people saying that the antibiotics aren't really useful. Of course, now I'm a bit confused... she's still going to the vet... but can anyone give me some first hand experience with dealing with RI? Do the antibiotics work?

In my experience they do not. Symptoms will go away only to return later, maybe next year with a little cooling. That was my experience with burmese. I've only had one RI with balls, years ago. The adult male was still in quarantine when he showed signs, after treatment he seemed fine. The next winter just as we were starting to cool it returned. I put him in another room and raised the heat, in a week or so he died. If there is another with RI they will be removed and never return. Better safe than sorry, Mike

>> In my experience they do not. Symptoms will go away only to return later, maybe next year with a little cooling. That was my experience with burmese. I've only had one RI with balls, years ago. The adult male was still in quarantine when he showed signs, after treatment he seemed fine. The next winter just as we were starting to cool it returned. I put him in another room and raised the heat, in a week or so he died. If there is another with RI they will be removed and never return. Better safe than sorry, Mike

Thanks for the input. I am sorry to hear about the male. The hobby has many ups... but definitely some big downs. Would you happen to know how contagious RI is? Does it require direct contact for it to transfer? I only ask this because the day after I received her, I asked my bf to check on her while I did something else. He stupidly decides to take her out of the quarantine room and carry her into the same room as my collection. What worries me is that I don't know what he's touched.

Years ago I was told to raise the temps and put tetracycline tablets in the drinking water. You have to change the water out every day. You can find the tetracycline tablets at a local pet store.

Craig Ost
Ocean Gallery

Hello,

I have had good experiences with some antibiotics.
(Including use for treating respiratory infections in Burmese Pythons and Ball Pythons.)

However, I have found that I prefer certain antibiotic over others.

For example I do not generally care for antibiotics which must be injected. (Avoiding stress to the animal usually improves your success.) I prefer to utilize antibiotics that can be administered orally.
I also try to avoid those medications which are associated with nephrotoxicity (toxic damage to the kidneys, usually caused by chemical crystallization within the nephretic tubules within the glomerulus of the kidney...eventually leading to kidney failure).

One of the most important things to consider when dealing with a respiratory infection is the fact that different pathogens can cause similar symptoms. It is therefore, important to first determine exactly what pathogen(s) you are fighting.
Take the snake in to a reputable reptile vet for a culture. Find out exactly what you are up against. Find out what antibiotics are most effective for that specific pathogen. Bacteria are often more susceptible to one antibiotic than to another antibiotic. When dealing with more than one cultured pathogen, do not mix antibiotics....rather, try using a single broad spectrum antibiotic which was recommended by your qualified vet.

The most important concept to keep in mind is that you do not want to "educate" the bacteria.
By this I mean, that you need to follow through with the treatment...EVEN AFTER SYMPTOMS DISAPPEAR.
For example: If the vet says to dose the animal every 2 days for 10 treatments...make sure that you continue the prescribed dosages even if the snake seems better after dose # 6,7,8 or 9.
Follow the prescribed treatment dosage and the schedule.
This reduces the chance of a few resistant bacteria surviving and dividing to create more resistant "educated" bacteria.
It is impossible to fight an infection using antibiotics to which the pathogens have become resistant.

Stay in touch with your vet. If the animal is not showing any improvement after several treatments...do NOT just discontinue using the antibiotic....consult your vet.

I have had great luck using a method I describe as the "first punch technique" we administer heavier (yet safe) dosages of suitable antibiotic in the first (1-2) initial treatments and then lower the subsequent dosages to more normally acceptable treatment levels. This can be effective with certain types of antibiotics and specific pathogens. Again, always follow the advice of your vet.

Keep your animal well hydrated when administering any antibiotics. This is especially important if you decide to use an antibiotic which is associated with nephrotoxicity.

Ask your vet about the use of a nebulizor for treating the subject. With some medications this can be a safer, more suitable (and less stressful) way to treat them. (With the right antibiotics, it works great for gravid females!!!)

Ask about any possible side effects the medication might have.
Is it carcinogenic? (causes cancer)
It is teratogenic? (causes birth defects during embryonic development.)

Medicine is always making new advancements. I have been very pleased with the results of some of the newer antibiotics.
For antibiotics to remain useful...they must be used responsibly. Using antibiotics without actually culturing the the subject is one of the worst things you can do. Not using them exactly as prescribed by your vet is another.

I hope this info will be helpful.
Good luck with your snake.

Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611

Harlin, that was a very informative post.
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This is courage.. to bear unflinching what heaven sends. -unknown

1.0 Basset Hound (Capone)
1.1 cats (San Quinton and Gracie)

Hey thanks.

I love the name you have given to your dog and cats.
Cute.

Take care,
Harlin

Hey Harlin. I agree with Christina (Shadow) . . . great post.

After getting a culture done, what have you seen as the most common bacteria of RI and therefore what is your most often used oral antibiotic?

Also, do you find that RIs are contagious?
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Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room

I have been lucky to not have to deal with RI's. So that being said, what is the most likely cause for them? Low temps?
-----
This is courage.. to bear unflinching what heaven sends. -unknown

1.0 Basset Hound (Capone)
1.1 cats (San Quinton and Gracie)

(I accidentally posted this as a new thread above.)

Hello Alice,
Nice to hear from you.
Please feel welcome to call me.

Pseudomonas is the most commonly cultured bacteria that I have seen in reptiles with respiratory infections.
This bacteria is so commonly present, that it can even be cultured from a HEALTHY snake (or other subject).

There are a large number of different species of bacteria which have been lumped into the classing of Pseudomonas. They are rather vaguely described as single cell, rod-shaped, gram negative bacteria with polar-flagella. There are many different strains of this bacteria.

A very common strain is Pseudomonas aeruginosa.
This particular strain has shown an increasing tendency for antibiotic resistance in several clinical studies.
P. aeruginosa has been called an emerging opportunistic pathogen with clinical significance.
This bacteria is a common pathogen of many other animals including human subjects. It seems to thrive in hospital environments. The ability of Pseudomonas species to rapidly mutate and form resistance to antibiotics is of great concern.

Interestingly enough...this bacteria is actually so very common that it's utmost importance is it's role in the formation of snow and rain around the world! (In the atmosphere these bacteria are thought to be the most common nucleator of ice crystals which form within clouds....thank you wikipedia.)
As such, this bacteria is widespread in water worldwide.

Certainly, I could imagine that a snake could contract a Pseudomonas infection which could lead to a respiratory infection from aerosolized water vapor or dust particles laden with the bacteria. ( I am not fond of any dusty cage substrates.)
However, I think that the more common avenue of introduction would be from direct contact with another infected subject or a bacteria contaminated implement...such as a water bowl, cage, hook or even the keepers fingers.

In Tracy and Dave Barkers Ball Python Book they covered the "Dirty Thumb" scenario. Often keepers will change their water bowls and their thumb will accidentally enter a contaminated water bowl. The water bowl is refilled or replaced. Then, they move to the next cage...again if the thumb enters that next water bowl...and it is merely refilled...that next healthy snake is now in jeopardy from drinking (potentially) bacteria contaminated water.

Obviously, utilizing somewhat sterile procedures while keeping your snakes is very important.

The efficiency of a snake's immune system is directly dependent on several factors such as captive stress levels, basking and non-basking site temperatures, humidity levels etc. Providing the optimum, stress free, appropriate living conditions will go a long way to help protect your animals from becoming infected.

As a keeper, a snake with a bacterial infection is nothing to be ashamed of...it is VERY commonplace...regardless of the keeper's level of experience. It is however a serious matter that should be handled quickly and properly, with the help of a good vet who will ALWAYS do the culture.

In a nutshell...consider that these bacteria are ALWAYS present....even in the best husbandry conditions. It is our job to try to keep the concentration of the bacteria low enough that the immune systems of our snakes can provide good defenses.
To keep the bacteria counts low...we keep things clean. We provide our snakes with appropriate accommodations with hide structures for added security.

If you find a snake in the early stages of what appears to be an infection...quickly isolate it from the rest of the population. And treat it accordingly.

I would rather not give out the names of any specific antibiotics on a public forum. The reason behind this is that I fear that not everyone will utilize the information in a responsible manner.
Often people will just use the old shotgun approach.
You know...shoot first...ask questions later. lol.
In my opinion this is often unwitting antibiotic abuse, masked by someone who only had good intentions.

Anyone who reads this posting is welcome to contact me by phone, should they have specific antibiotic questions. I will do my best to provide answers....and I will gladly go over the names of antibiotics which have worked in the past for me.
A relationship with a qualified Veterinarian is one of the best investments you can make in this business! It has certainly been beneficial for me.

Take care.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611