Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Getting back to my comments that helped open this latest string of venom. I am not anti-Hybrid, but my problem with Hybrids has to do with all the times I have been at shows where they are sold to the general public...and then sold to the local petshop or reptile wholesaler...Misidentified. And from there they are passed on as pure to people who buy them to breed. I have spent many years advising petshops on ID ( ID being my particular passion in this hobby)and can speak with authority when I say the majority (not all) of the people in this Hobby/business from the grass roots up, lack the training to tell the difference.
A classic example was at Daytona where I bought a lovely female B.rosaliae (Baja ratsnake). No one since I bought it has supplied the correct ID. Instead I have heard some quite authorative accounts of what kind of Hybrid it is. I wish that was the only example I could site...but amongst others L.t.gaigae (juv)-thought to be Black king (though there was still some red and white) and a designer intergrade bull/pine being sold as a pure pine (southern). And that's only from the last two months!
I prefer "pure species" but I have also experimented...Crossing a Fla king with a Eastern Black (None of the babies made it to the market). Hybrids can be exciting and it is a business...I am not against the sale and breeding. but there must be some attention paid to preservation of pure species...That is what keeps us legitimate. As hobbiests and in the eyes of the law makers.
There is a lot of worry about this hobby being taken away from us. This ridiculous display of testosterone fuels the fire and benifits NO ONE!
Frank

There in lies the problem . While you arent against Hybrids but being more responsible. Thats never ever gonna happen because it only takes one irresponsible person to mess it up. So thats why Hybrids should be done away with completely but thats not going to happen either. The best thing is to not buy them and for others not to buy them then they become valueless and then folks will breed them in fewer numbers. So I say boycott buying Hybrids but not the breeders themselves so dont misunderstand my thoughts on this.

Keith

Sadly my friend...It is way too late for that.
Frank

but at least maybe the flow can be stemmed. There are too many newbies who are captivated by the weird stuff. I think anybody who is going to get a snake should read Carl Kauffeld's books and at least look through the Audobon Field Guide at all the naturally beautiful snakes. I know of course in the world of internet, books are a thing of the past.

Keith

Don't get me started....I recently began a program at my local herp society entittled "Florida snake of the month". I did this after walking into a meeting with a common (eastern mud) snake and no one one(which included a few breeders)could (except for one person) ID it correctly. Sadly I had also brought in Glossys and several other common snakes to the same result. I love Kaufield....Might I recommend SUN, SAND, AND SNAKES by Stephen Spawls?
Frank

Most major breeders create hybrids. Personally as long as we have stable natural populations i don't think hybrids are a bad thing. Snakes that look better than the normal sell much better, and have a larger market. You have to admit some of the hybrids do look very cool. And of course some of them sell for a lot of money, which i think is very good for snake owners, and other reptile owners.

Most major breeders create hybrids.

Do you have data to back that up, or are just making an assumption? Why do you say that? Please, clue us in on which ones do this, and which animals are involved. Since it's most of them, I expect it will be a fairly lengthy list..

Im confused by your post please clarify.

Keith

It's for Curious. He was the one that said most major breeders produce hybrids, and I'm not too sure I agree with that...

I know yours was for curious I was wondering if his was meant for me LOL.

Keith

n/p

.

!

I thought it was a TOS violation?

If it's true, it's not slanderous or libelous. You aren't advertising for them. You are just answering a question.

Before I do, do you mean hybrids of just different spieces, or different localities/sub spieces?

I'll post a few that do hybrids of sub spieces and total hybrids.

AAA reptiles, they even have a slogan "cherry pick your designer hybrid.

Absolute Reptile

Ball Python.com

Ball Python Morphs.com

Prehistoric Pets

NERD

keep in mind these are just a few of the bigger companies, look through every link in the Breeders/Dealers/Stores section and many of the breeders have hybrid animals.

How do you think you get those designer california kings? By taking the best patterned animals from the spieces and breeding them, one snakes parents could have came from California and the other in Arizona or Oregon or Utah etc.. Different localities carry different color pattern.

Crossing locales and sub-species of the same species is not a hybrid. Crossing sub-species is an intergrade, crossing locales is just..well...crossing locales and lowering the value of your animals.

A hybrid is when you cross snakes of different species or genus. Say, for instance, you cross a Corn Snake with a San Diego Gopher Snake. Or an Eastern Kingsnake with a Honduran Milk Snake...or a Corn Snake with a Sinaloan Milk Snake. THAT'S a hybrid. When you cross California King Snakes from two different locales, what you end up with is a California King Snake. Maybe a mutt California Kingsnake, maybe a nice one, but a California Kingsnake just the same.

That list certainly doesn't look to me like "most of the big name breeders", either. I didn't see Robert Applegate in there or John Cherry...actually it was a pretty short list when you consider the number of large-scale breeders out there. My guess would be that there are fewer than 10% of large-scale breeders producing hybrids.

Oldeherper,
I thought we covered this a while back but on an oler thread but this is just to much to take. Every week someone new comes on and assumes the same thing. Since this week you brought it up I guess I will lay out the same challenge.

I made this challenge a while back with Terry Dunham and he did not take me up on this.

List all the large breeders that do not sell hybrids and I will list all those that do. The larger breeders would probly be 100% hybrid breeders. Not 10%. I proposed a number of 99% but we can all see the exact percentages .

SO here is the criteria:
A large breeder would not be someone that specializes in just one type of animal. Also having web site does not constitute being a "large scale breeder". List breeders who are well known and offer a variety like BHB, Professional Breeders, Mark Bell, Bob Clark ect.

Go first and then I will list mine. This is much more of a chore for me since I am the one having to write a list a mile long so the least you could do is write your list first. Make sure these are not closet hybrid breeders as I know a lot of these breeders and I will let the cat out of the bag.

Rainer

np

If you breed a corn snake from miami with one from oklahoma its offspring isnt going to be pure of either variety, it's a hybrid. Different genetic traits make hybrids, forget about what speices or genus. Genetic hybrids are taking two snakes with different traits and mixing them together.

Oh and if he lists first youre basically muting his whole point.

You have zero idea what you are talking about. You need to go read some books or scan the net but get some shred knowledge . You are coming off looking incredibly stupid so please either ask a question (if you don't know for sure) or have some pertinent knowledge to bring to the debate. I realize you are new here and I wouldn't normally attack a newbie but you posts are stated as fact when you really have none and you are embarrassing yourself.

Keith

p.s. Also Curiousity is the wrong spelling for your "forum
name". Its Curiosity.

1. Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

Genetic dissimilar parents, can be animals from different localities of the same spieces. Granted it does say "especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races." And what are you bringing to this discussion keith? your opinion is just about all. I may be new to this forum but I am not new to these boards or to the "debate" over hybridizing animals.

Just in case youre not sure what a variety, species or race is let me define them for you, ok?

variety Biology.
A taxonomic subdivision of a species consisting of naturally occurring or selectively bred populations or individuals that differ from the remainder of the species in certain minor characteristics.
An organism, especially a plant, belonging to such a subdivision.

speciesBiology.
A fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus and consisting of related organisms capable of interbreeding. See table at taxonomy.
An organism belonging to such a category, represented in binomial nomenclature by an uncapitalized Latin adjective or noun following a capitalized genus name, as in Ananas comosus, the pineapple, and Equus caballus, the horse.

race Biology.
An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.

Call me a newb just because I'm proving my point?

p.s. Curiosity was already taken, and my biggest snake is named curiosity, so i changed the spelling a bit. As if everyone's name on this site is spelled correctly.

since you profess to be into herps then that is stupid and not ignorant. Two different locales do not make a hybrid. Are you a newbie? Why hide? Tell us who you are?

Kerby...

...except that there technically are no Corn snakes in Oklahoma. There are Great Plains Rat snakes, Elaphe (er, Pantherophis) guttata emoryi, a separate and recognized subspecies from E. (or P.) g. guttata. So crossing a Miami Corn with an Oklahoma Great Plains Rat is more than a matter of crossing locality. It is a crossing of recognized subspecies, commonly known in the field as an intergrade (which occurs naturally in parts of Arkansas, Louisiana, and far eastern Texas.)

But all of that's really beside the point. I think what we have here is a matter of semantics. At what point does the crossing of snakes of differing traits constitute a "Hybrid?" I agree with Oldherper that the crossing of two snakes of the same subspecies from different locales (with or without different locality-specific characteristics) would NOT constitute a hybrid. OTOH, the crossing of two subspecies, i.e., an intergrade, COULD be considered a hybrid by the definitions provided. In which case the list of breeders that do hybrids should begin with Mother Nature. The crossing of two separate species, or separate genera, to me would result in a hybrid.

So there's the rub. The number of breeders dealing in hybrids depends a bunch on how one defines "hybrid." So I pose this simple question to the breeders and experts: Is an intergrade a hybrid?
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MichaelB

Breeding 2 California Kings from different locales DOES NOT make a hybrid. Here in Arizona we have both Sonoran gopher snakes and Great Basin gopher snakes. There is obvious natural crossing of the two where their boundaries meet in the wild. Hybrid?? Nature would disagree.

Kerby...

I'm not sure if you meant that he does or does not make hybrids.

>>"Crossing locales and sub-species of the same species is not a hybrid. "

What about an eastern king x a cal king. You can't treally call that an integrade can you. I think crosses like this are even more detrimental to the hobby. Nobody has proven to me yet that the albino eastern is pure.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

Actually a cross between sub species that don't naturally intergrade are "Unnatural Intergrades" and not Hybrids. I agree these are just as bad as Hybrids and probably happen more often than hybridization itself.

Keith

***How do you think you get those designer california kings? By taking the best patterned animals from the spieces and breeding them, one snakes parents could have came from California and the other in Arizona or Oregon or Utah etc.. Different localities carry different color pattern.***

Breeding a California Kingsnake to a California Kingsnake DOES NOT make a hybrid!

Kerby...

n/p

about what the "Industry" (herpetologists to you) say and accept. And THEY say that your definition of "hybrid" is hokie-pokie" LOL If YOU read this whole intire thread, IT IS YOU that is coming off as ignorant and as stupid in most cases. Remember a lot of people are reading these threads and YOU need to choose your words a little wiser. So what is your name, ya know just to add credibility to your post, or are you hiding?? Yep hiding LOL

So who are you (name that is)? Otherwise you will be just labeled as a troll?

p.s. It is funny that you and another poster have "signature" style posts LOL

Not fooling anyone, are we? LOL

Anyways, check out the wide====striper that I posted at the top

Kerby...

I agree with both sides. Incorrectly identified animals being sold is a bad thing. People who are going to hybridize should be resposible in their actions.
On the other hand, there are some gorgeous designers (hybrids) around. And in my opinion, anything that creates a love for the animals and the hobby is a good thing. As long as it is done RESPONSIBLY.
just my .01 cents worth