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I have a pair of ball pythons that were possible het for albinos when I got them. I have bred them together a few times and have not gotten any albinos, but they keep producing paradox albinos. These paradox albinos don't look like your typical paradox, they are less albino and more washed with splotches of albino. I finally got my paradox female up to breeder size and bred her to an albino this year. She produced 5 eggs. The results are 3 eggs contained 1 albino in each egg. 1 egg contained 2 albinos in it and 1 egg contained something other than an albino. Only one has come out of the egg so far so I can't yet tell if the non albino is a paradox or not. At any rate, this is the first time I have ever heard of breeding a paradox albino to an albino and getting anything other than all albinos. I may breed a male paradox to the female paradox next year, just to see what happens.

Do you have a camera...Some pics would be really cool.

Bill
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2.1 Tripple Het Caramel, Orange Ghost, Genetic Stripe
1.0 Honeybee
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
0.1 Het Pied
1,1 Pastel Het for Orange Ghost
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
1.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
1.0 Pied 50 percent White
0.1 Clown
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids (9) and (16)
0.1 Spouse (22 Years Married)
1.0 Chocolate Lab

paradox are often a chimaera, resulting by the early fusion on 2 different embryos with 2 different DNA, so even the ovaries/testicles can contain either albino's cells or het albino's cells, that's why you can have both visuals and hets
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www.qualitysnakes.it

I am not exactly sure of what you are saying here. But there are no paradox hets. Either it is a paradox (showing two traits) or not paradox. Of every paradox bred to an albino to date all of produced all albinos with no hets and no paradoxs coming out of the breeding. That is the case for ball pythons, at least. My paradoxs are different in the fact that they show much less albino than most paradoxs and now they have produced something other than all albinos. And to top it off, they have certainly screwed up the odds. If this paradox had genetics for het then 50% of the litter should have been albino and 50% should have been hets. I got 5 albinos and one non albino out of 5 eggs.

What he is saying is that a paradox is often formed from two embryos, one albino and one not. If that blending of the two embryos also occurs in the germline cells (which produce either eggs in a female or sperm in a male) then some gametes produced will carry the gene for albinism and some will not. So even a visual albino could possibly produce gametes as though it were only Het for albino.

Also, the statistics you quoted are for *each egg*, not for the entire clutch. For instance, a Het Albino to Albino breeding will give EACH EGG a 50% chance of producing an albino and a 50% chance of producing a normal (het. albino). It does not mean that clutches will produce 50% Albinos and 50% Hets.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

The premise, then, would be that she is either het albino or albino. And the odds of *an egg* having a 50% chance of being a het and a 50% of being an albino talleys out to 50 out of 100 eggs containing albino and 50 out of 100 containing hets. That is how you come to the 50%. But when 5 eggs contain 5 albinos and 1 egg contains a het, out of a 5 egg clutch, odds were certainly defied, if not downright squashed. Your 50% chance per egg still translates to 50% of eggs produced being half homozygous and half het. I may just breed her to an albino again next year, just to see how the odds fall again.

No, the 50% chance of Albino or Het does not come from the number of hets or albinos in a clutch. Those percentages are derived statistically from a punnet square. An Albino parent (aa) bred to a Heterozygous parent (Aa) produces a punnet square that looks like this:

a a
A Aa Aa
a aa aa

Therefore, the gametes sort so that each egg has a 50% chance of receiving the "aa" combination (Albino) and 50% chance of receiving the "Aa" combination (Heterozygous). Whether you get all Albinos or all Hets is simply luck of the draw. Even breeding two Hets together could produce all Albinos, if you are really lucky. It has very little to do with the per egg gamete sorting.

To put this into perspective: My brother in law has four daughters. This doesn't mean that he has special gametes. Each pregnancy (IE, each "egg" has a 50% chance of being male and 50% chance of being female. His luck was to produce 4 females. According to the statistical method you propose, he should have produced 2 males and 2 females, but the percentages are actually based on a "per pregnancy" basis. What you are describing is closely related to the "gambler's fallacy" in statistics.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Here is a better image of a Homozygous to Heterozygous breeding:

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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Sorry, I am flooding the forum. Not sure why that code brought up the wrong image. That punnet square is actually of a Heterozygous to a Heterozygous breeding. Which still shows the per egg chance of receiving those gamete combinations.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Actually, with your theory, the punnet square is useless and pointless. It is just luck of the draw. And every egg does have a 50% chance of being male and female unless termperature manipulation is used which does work with some reptiles thus completely rendering your theory useless once again. The fact that me and thousands of other breeders have bred albinos and paradoxs to hets and have gotten the same results time after time is the kind of PROOF that I rely on, not hypotheticals and theories. You use your punnet square to prove a point and you ignore another point. Your punnet of a het to a homozyogous shows that an egg has a 50% chance of being an albino or a het. It also is used to show that 2 out of 4 or 50 out of 100 should appear. Any other results would mean that the gene is working in something other than a recessive way. If I breed a hypo to a normal and get all hypos, my hypo is called a super hypo. Or with your theroy, a very lucky luck of the draw. I do follow what you are saying, but I still say these were more than just really good odds. Either way, I have plenty of time to work it all out.
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cdreptiles.com/

What I was explaining to you isn't theory and isn't limited to Ball Pythons. It is basic genetic statistics you will learn in any Intro to Genetics college course. This was all established by Gregor Mendel and those who followed him, not by me.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

I agree with the above, I demand pictures!
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Most of the recent photos are either not on an online album or are way to large. Anyone who wants pics can email me and I will be glad to email you pics of the female, the parents, the babies in the eggs, and the male that I will be breeding to the female next time. Email me at duggincl@aol.com

i would like to see the pics as well...

1. right click on the file(pic) open with "Microsoft Picture Manager" assuming you use Windows.
2. click "edit pictures" up top...re-size pic "right side" to "web small or large"
3. save pic as "copy"
4. upload to kingsnake pics
5. post pic in thread...

to easy!

Pitoon

>>Most of the recent photos are either not on an online album or are way to large. Anyone who wants pics can email me and I will be glad to email you pics of the female, the parents, the babies in the eggs, and the male that I will be breeding to the female next time. Email me at duggincl@aol.com
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Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

It is not an issue of not knowing how to post the pics, just a lack of time to sit down and fool with it. I generally answer emails about snakes or other things from my cell phone or while ducking in and out between the many other things I am doing or working out in the reptile building. It is baby season and as you can imagine, I am very busy right now.

send to me and i'll put them up...

Pitoon

>>It is not an issue of not knowing how to post the pics, just a lack of time to sit down and fool with it. I generally answer emails about snakes or other things from my cell phone or while ducking in and out between the many other things I am doing or working out in the reptile building. It is baby season and as you can imagine, I am very busy right now.
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Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

>>send to me and i'll put them up...
>>
>>Pitoon
>>
>>>>It is not an issue of not knowing how to post the pics, just a lack of time to sit down and fool with it. I generally answer emails about snakes or other things from my cell phone or while ducking in and out between the many other things I am doing or working out in the reptile building. It is baby season and as you can imagine, I am very busy right now.
>>-----
>> Homepage
>> My BLOG
>> 2010 European Shows

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Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

Thanks for posting those for me. If I ever get some free time, I will try and upload some photos on here. I still have work to do on my own website.
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cdreptiles.com/

pics didn't come through!!!!

Thank you for the pictures !

I never believed in chimera, and these things... Never been proved in any species (as far as I know) and too complicated to happen so often. Other than it would be "cool", there is nothing to back it up I think.

What I believe is that Paradox (at least in the albinos) is a multi-recessive phenomen.

What I believe and what the picture and description try to explain IMO, there is at least one more gene involved, but there could be way more than that.

So the female that laid the eggs, is an albino but there is another gene involved that change it's appearance to look more "normalish". Meaning, when you breed it to an albino, you actually breed an albino to an albino "combo". So all the babies are at least albinos, but some might even have the combo gene(s).

Well, that's at least my opinion.
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love this world, don't hate it.

Chimeras haven't been proven in BPs as far as I know, but several other species have proven out to produce chimeras, including ones that have chimera germline cells. There have been two mules that had germline cells of the horse embryo they bonded with. Several humans have been proven as chimeras, including one woman who had large patches of skin and hair that were genetically male from the male twin she bonded with in the womb. Male calico cats are sometimes chimeras, which would be the closest example to this situation since it effects their coat pattern phenotype.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Are you saying that Mules are the result of a chimeric event and not a hybrid? Since mules are the result of breeding a male Donkey to a female horse, that would be a hybrid.

Mules and Hinnies have 63 chromosomes, a mixture of the horse's 64 and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos, rendering most mules infertile.

There are no recorded cases of fertile mule stallions.[citation needed] A few female mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse or donkey.[9] Since 1527 there have been more than 60 documented cases of foals born to female mules around the world.[9] There are reports that a mule in China produced a foal in 1984.[10][11] In Morocco, in early 2002, a mare mule produced a rare foal.[9] In 2007 a mule named Kate gave birth to a mule son in Colorado.[12][13] Blood and hair samples were tested verifying that the mother was a mule and the colt was indeed her offspring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule

This is the "theory" I spoke of above. This would render the punnet square useless. But this has never been seen in balls. Your example was a non existent one. No one to date has had a visual albino that, as you said, was actually only a het. It simply has not happened. And while I agree with you that the punnet square represents a per egg chance, it cannot be denied that it also can be used, with somewhat reliability, to determine a clutchs statistical numbers prior to hatching. And using this, which 99.9% of breeders do, my clutch here was one of those that has defied the odds if not onto something different altogether. I don't think anyone here is willing to by the Chimera bit, especially with such a complete lack of evidence.
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cdreptiles.com/

I have been following this thread and your arguement is based in a presumption that your paradox is an albino wich it clearly is not.

Your snake is a het albino, just because it shows aq small amount of poaradoxing you assume the most beneficial scenario for yourself, that it is genetically an albino which your own clutch results disprove, its a het.

The chimera theory is based on sound science and i have championed that theory for years, and its finally gaining acceptance. Why do you think that paradoxes NEVER prove to be predictably genetic, and never will?

There is another genetic explanation for what you animal is but you seem to be dismissive of any explanation that does not seem to be magical.

Nick

There seem to be two disticnt types of paradoxes, one is the roughly 50/50 looking animals that are almost certain to be Chimeras, the other is what you have , an animal with only a small patch of dissimilar pigmentation.

These animals always proven to be what the dominant phenotype is.

This second type of paradox is most likely whats known as a mosaic monosomy. In this proven genetic phenomeneon, some cells, receive only one copy of a given gene instead of the two that should be present. For some reason an error occurs leaving patches of tissue with a missing copy of a gene. In your case your snake received one copy of the gene for albinism from one parent , making it a het, and in certain patches it failed to recieve a second copy at all.

The result is that with only one copy of the amel gene and no normal copy to offset it in these affected areas, the animal displays albinism in those areas.

People make all sorts of mistaken assumptions about these things. One big one is that having two copies of the albino gene makes you an albino, in reality its the LACK of having a properly functioning copy of that allele that results in albinism, hence an animal with only a single copy of that gene and no second copy at all ,will have the albino phenotype.

You can also have a complete monosomy, where an animal is mising one copy of a given gene in every cell of its body. A perfect example of this is a friend of mine who bred a black pastel male to a normal female and produced a "super" which I have seen myself.

Nick

>>There seem to be two disticnt types of paradoxes, one is the roughly 50/50 looking animals that are almost certain to be Chimeras, the other is what you have , an animal with only a small patch of dissimilar pigmentation.
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>>These animals always proven to be what the dominant phenotype is.
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>>This second type of paradox is most likely whats known as a mosaic monosomy. In this proven genetic phenomeneon, some cells, receive only one copy of a given gene instead of the two that should be present. For some reason an error occurs leaving patches of tissue with a missing copy of a gene. In your case your snake received one copy of the gene for albinism from one parent , making it a het, and in certain patches it failed to recieve a second copy at all.
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>>The result is that with only one copy of the amel gene and no normal copy to offset it in these affected areas, the animal displays albinism in those areas.
>>
>>People make all sorts of mistaken assumptions about these things. One big one is that having two copies of the albino gene makes you an albino, in reality its the LACK of having a properly functioning copy of that allele that results in albinism, hence an animal with only a single copy of that gene and no second copy at all ,will have the albino phenotype.
>>
>>
>>You can also have a complete monosomy, where an animal is mising one copy of a given gene in every cell of its body. A perfect example of this is a friend of mine who bred a black pastel male to a normal female and produced a "super" which I have seen myself.
>>
>>Nick

I agree,those clutch results are not conclusive enough to say that both parents are homozygous albinos..However,i've wondered if perhaps the missing allele condition that a paradox probably has is or isn't inheritable in its own right? (Which would be really long and difficult to prove out either way.)
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Charles Glaspie
picasaweb.google.com/coldthumb

>I agree,those clutch results are not conclusive enough to say that both parents are homozygous albinos..However,i've wondered if perhaps the missing allele condition that a paradox probably has is or isn't inheritable in its own right? (Which would be really long and difficult to prove out either way.)

A missing gene condition is called a deletion. And yes, it can be inherited.

I will be very interested to see pictures of the babies.

Seems to me that there could be chimeras with all skin cells from one member of the chimera while testis/ovary cells could be a mixture. If 80% of the sperm/eggs had an albino mutant gene and only 20% had a normal gene, then that would explain the 4 albino/1 not albino clutch. Or the proportion could be 50:50 and the luck of the draw.

By the way, either the mother or the father could be the albino-looking chimera.

The luck of the draw explains why a gambler can walk out of a casino dripping money one evening. Playing the odds explains why the casino posts a profit at the end of the year.

Paul Hollander

Had I started a thread on why my normal looking possible hets keep throwing paradoxs all of these theories might be better taken, but I really only posted the results of the project as there were many who wanted to know the results and this was simpler than emailing them all or waiting until Daytona to discuss it. I am open to any and all possible outcomes, but I will get that through breeding, not from forum genetic guesswork. I have kept all of the paradoxs, so I will KNOW my results, no guessing neccessary.
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cdreptiles.com/

I have never said the snake was an albino nor have I assumed such. I simply stated that to date, every known breeding of a paradox ball python to an albino has produced all albinos. I have been working with and enjoying this project for years and have had NO expectations! Those who know me and have watched this project for more than just these three nights on this forum know this, I am sorry a few theory pushers do not realize this. If you have any paradox breeding data in ball pythons to show us, by all means, let's see it. If you just want to push your chimera theory, start your own thread. I am not calling these anything other than paradoxs, I have not said they are albino or het. I have only said what we can visually see and said that future breeding will tell us the rest. I and the rest of the people who have commented on this thread could continue to make assumptions just like yours, however, I choose to continue to work with this project and leave the guess work to you. I'll just get what I get. To insinuate that I am just trying to make it out to be a magical snake is just plain stupid being as that albinos are worth almost nothing now and the het could only be sold as a het.
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cdreptiles.com/

All anyone has done is try to give a rational ,science based explanation for what is a very common phenomeneon, one which I have followed for years. In EVERY case that I have looked at the evidence fits the theory perfectly.

You have a completley scientific explanation for whats happening and every shred of evidence supports it. In fact I would encourage you to present even one shred of evidence that contradicts the hypothesis.

There is a reason why paradoxes never prove to be predictably inheritable. If you want to ignore science and choose to believe otherwise thats fine.

For the record I have hatched one paradox animal myself.

Nick

I didn't "choose to ignore science". I simply produced some paradox balls that looked different than any I had ever seen. I then chose to breed one of them to an albino to see if I could get something other than all albinos, as that was the result of every paradox x albino breeding that I have heard of to date. I bred them and and I got my result. One snake was not an albino. I am not ignoring science nor am I questioning it. You guys can analyze germlines and sperm all you want. At the end of the day, I am sitting on a pair of ball pythons that in back to back breedings have produced paradoxs and I now have bred one of those paradoxs to an albino and got something other than all albinos. This was nothing more than a dinking project for me and if I had taken it nearly as serious as you guys, I suppose I could have tried to have DNA testing done. But that would be pointless with snakes that are not worth that much money. Maybe if I was curious as to why I keep getting the paradoxs, your discussion might interest me. But as I see it, this was a simple "here are the results" thread, hijacked by forum geneticists, using my animals to describe their theroy. None of it matters to me, as they are not for sale anyway.
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cdreptiles.com/

I will say a couple more things and then bow out of this thread as you clearly are being antagonistic.

You claim that you are not curious as to why this happens, but this is obviously not true, as you have done repeat breedings and held back animals, even if its a "dinker" project, you wouldnt persue it unless you were at least curious.

Some of us then simply tried to explain what is almost certainly going on and get hostile. I am sorry if the likley expalanation is less than magical or somehow dissapoints you. These things are not as mysterious as poeple tend to make them.

You obviously want to understand whats going on, so your hostility is a little baffling here.

Laslty you this phenomenon occurs in every species and not just in albinos. Paradoxes tend to breed as what the dominant phenotype is, wich in your case is HET albino.

I have a paradox pastel I hatched last year and I have seen and examined probably 2 dozen of them, including examples in other species that incliuded a few colubrids and even a tree boa.

This is not even a particularily rare occurrence.

Nick

I apologize for seeming hostile or antagonisitc as I am clearly not trying to be either. What I was baffled at, is how quick some are to say that this is a very simple explanation. In order to believe that, I would have to "assume" a couple of things. First, I just had amazing luck with the odds on this clutch. The paradox is just a het and I just had really great luck with this clutch producing so many albinos. Secondly, I would have to once again"assume" that with all of the clutches from the het albinos that keep producing the paradoxs, that I have just had amazingly bad luck with those cluthces in that they have not produced a single albino. I then would have to further "assume" that for no other reason than the easily explained scientific explanation that you have given that every time my hets breed, I get one egg with two embryos that join together to form a paradox. Pardon me, if I find those odds a bit difficult to comprehend using your explanation. I do still believe that there could be something going on that we don't know about and only further breeding would tell us that. Obviously, my curiosity was peaked, which is why I work with this project. I actually do not prefer to work with ball pythons which is why this project makes up my entier collection of ball pythons. I do not rule out your theory, I just feel it is too early to except it based on one result. If I appeared hostile, it might be due to the fact that I was accused of not excepting "your theory" because I somehow wanted my snake to be some magical and profitable snake when that was a completely false accustation being as I have not sold any of the paradoxs and have sold all of the siblings, even those with highly impressive patterns for $35 each. Again, this thread was simply a "here is the result of this breeding" thread, not a " I have got to have all of my answers now" thread as I feel that your theory might be underestimating the fact that the hets continuously produce paradoxs and no albinos.
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cdreptiles.com/

I think your getting too hung up on the chimera thing. I really think there are two types of paradoxes: the chimeric paradoxes, wich seem to be the ones that are roughly 50/50.
these animals are more extreme, and also never prove inheritable as the reproductive tissues are all that matters in terms of breeding and they can only be from one twin, not both simultansously.

Your animals seem to be the second type, those with a much smaller region of atypical pigmentation. I really think the mosaic monosomy explains this perfectly, it also exlains why your animal breeds as a het and not as an albino, as proven by the one normal offspring.

What I dont know and have not been able to figure out thus far is what happens when you breed an animal that is missing one copy of a gene.

Normally an animal passes one copy of each gene to its offspring, and as each parent has 2 copies of each gene the odds are 50/50 as to which copy of the given gene the offsping will recieve.

What I dont know is in this condition, with an adult possesing only one copy of a given gene and an empty spot where the other copy should be is this: Will all the offspring inherit the one functional copy of that gene, or is it possible that the parent can in fact pass along the empty spot, essentially passing no copy at all 50% of the time.
If its possible for an animal with this monosomic condition to pass along the empty spot then its explains why you have produced paradoxes more than once.

This mechanism is entirely different from a chimeric paradox, wich could never be inherited.

Nick

I am not hung up on the Chimera thing. I believe that I made it clear several times in this thread that I did not believe that explained what I have going on here. I do believe that the mosaic monosomy is much more of a possibility. I am not willing to totally discount any other possiblities, though. I still find it hard to explain why the pair continue to throw paradoxs. It seems the genes in the parents are working strange. To get all the answers, I would need to seperate the paradox producing parents and breed each one of them to an albino. But in truth, I really like getting a paradox in every clutch, so it is hard to seperate the parents and breed them to something else. But, as I said, this is just a really cool dinking project. I am a boa guy and my primary focus has been and will continue to be with boas. No offense intended to you ball python people.
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cdreptiles.com/

>What I dont know is in this condition, with an adult possessing only one copy of a given gene and an empty spot where the other copy should be is this: Will all the offspring inherit the one functional copy of that gene, or is it possible that the parent can in fact pass along the empty spot, essentially passing no copy at all 50% of the time.

In Genetic Strains and Variants of the Laboratory Mouse, they list several deletions at the c (albino) locus that are passed along.

Trouble is, I would expect a cell with a normal gene and a deletion to produce melanin like a cell with a normal gene and an albino mutant gene. And a cell with a pair of deletions to not produce any melanin.

Paul Hollander