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Snake has gotten aggressive...help!

littleangel77007 May 06, 2010 03:47 AM

My friend is a middle school teacher, and at the beginning of the school year, he bought a Desert King as a classroom pet. I also have a Desert King that is thriving, so I helped him pick out a healthy, tame, approx 6 mo old female. I set up the cage to match mine, and he let her get acclimated and used to be handled for about 3 weeks before school started.

For the first semester, everything went well. He let the kids handle her for about 15 minutes once a week. He fed her once a week or so, kept the cage clean, and everything was fine. She was tame and growing steadily.

At winter break, he brought her home and put her in a slightly smaller (not by much) cage that was not as elaborately decorated as hers, but had all the necessities. She was there for about 1 month. Right before he was going to take her back to school, he was cleaning her cage, and she bit him. Figuring she was disturbed, he returned her to school (and her regular cage) a few days before the kids came back to let her settle down. Ever since then, she has been aggressive, and bites every time he reaches into the cage. And when she bites, she holds on; she doesn't just strike and release. He tried increasing her feedings. He tried leaving her alone and only entering her cage to clean it, feed her, and change the water. Then he tried handling her for about 5 minutes 3 times a week, but nothing has made any difference. He now wears gloves when he works with her cage, and of course the kids haven't touched her since winter break.

What else can he do to get his snake to settle down? He's ready to get rid of it, which I think would be a shame. And the snake is still thriving. The conditions in her tank are perfect, and she keeps growing and shedding. I've looked at her, and she's the picture of snake health. Any advice?

Replies (61)

Br8knitOFF May 06, 2010 06:50 AM

How old is the snake? Do you know the gender? What are you guys feeding it?

Sounds like it might be hungry and/or need larger prey items with more nutritional value. (again, depending on what you're feeding it- pinkies/fuzzies/adult mice)

Haven't seen this before, but if it's a male, he might be trying to copulate with some human fingers...

//Todd

JKruse May 06, 2010 06:51 AM

At first my thought was lack of contact during that month while in a smaller tank, but seemingly this person has made additional attempts at behavior modifiction with this king but to no avail. My thinking is three-fold at this point. 1) daily on-going attention and a vliant effort at holding the snake -- and i don't mean allowing the snake to continue its stance and gingerly trying to pick it up. It senses apprehension. My intervention would be to approach the snake with an open palm and quickly try to cover the snake with both hands and then gently pick it up. It's one of those "dog whisperer" techniques. 2) some king "person"alities are just tough, and a desert king (L. g. splendida) is no exception. I have a pair myself, and I wouldnt recommend them necessarily as a classroom pet for kids. My initial thought would be the ol' corn snake as a beginner pet/classroom mascot for kids. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for this as I usd to help lead the zoology club way back in high school. But the element of experience sounds like it's beginner at best, so maybe re-thinking the captive subject might be the best option at this point if the behavior mod can not be successfully done.

Best wishes...
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

JKruse May 06, 2010 06:54 AM

Oh yes, my "3rd fold" in thinking was the switching of captive subject....should always proof-read before hitting "post message".....LOL.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Bluerosy May 06, 2010 08:33 AM

And when she bites, she holds on; she doesn't just strike and release. He tried increasing her feedings

not feeding her enough. Increase feedings by giving more mice until she doesn't want to eat. then feed more often.

Sounds like when she was in the classroom she was fed sparingly, stressed and weak. After giving her a bit of security (smaller encloser) she is becoming more aggressive with a feeding response. The way to solve this is feed the snake. Always listen to what the snake is telling you and forget feeding schedules or what "we" think is enough food.

If it is a female she may need the calories to support her reproduction sysytem (which she may already be doiing) and this also causes agreesive feeding tactics on her part. basically she is trying to beef up to reproduce beause she produced follicles and is ovulating. She would be going through the same process as if she is going to lay eggs. Now she just needs more food and you could even add a male king to fertilize her eggs.
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www.Bluerosy.com

BobS May 06, 2010 09:57 AM

unfortunately I have found Kings to be a "Gamble". I have/had many that I would trust with letting kids hold them and others that do the "chew/strangle" thing no matter how much I fed them or tried to handle them. All good suggestions from experienced folks above and hope they work for you. I have usually had this experience with California Kings alot, but they are beautiful!

if the above suggestions don't work, I agree with your friend. Send it down the road. You can't have a snake attacking little kids and freaking them out. Corns are a MUCH better choice and there are lots of "designer" paint jobs to interest kids.

Good luck.

varanid May 06, 2010 10:51 AM

I'd just view it as an education about wild animals. It's not like a king's gonna maim a kid for life. Let them observe that wild animals will defend themselves if they feel threatened. Potentially good for kids to internalize.
My high school biology teacher had a huge, spastic honduran milk that sometimes drew blood. No big deal.
-----
We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

DMong May 06, 2010 12:37 PM

"My high school biology teacher had a huge, spastic honduran milk that sometimes drew blood. No big deal"

You are right about a bite normally being no big deal at all, especially to people that understand snake behavior. But all it takes is someone in the class to tell their idiotic parents that they got bitten by a snake at school, and this could send the world crashing down on the school with law suites, and open a "Pandora's box".

This sort of thing is absolutely ridiculous, and sucks big-time!, but these are extremely sad times we now live in, this is a fact!. Everybody seems to be looking for ways to get money and blame someone for everything that happens except the the "REAL" responsible party. The TV media is a HUGE perpetuator of this assinine behavior.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Bluerosy May 06, 2010 01:18 PM

but these are extremely sad times we now live in, this is a fact!. Everybody seems to be looking for ways to get money and blame someone for everything that happens except the the "REAL" responsible party. The TV media is a HUGE perpetuator of this assinine behavior.

You said a mouthful and I agree. I wish we were still back in the 60's, 70's or even 80's. People just didn't act like they do today.
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www.Bluerosy.com

DMong May 06, 2010 01:28 PM

Yes, that is so very true man!, and so very sad!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

varanid May 06, 2010 02:28 PM

80's?!? I'm turning 26 next week; I graduated in 2002!
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Bluerosy May 06, 2010 03:08 PM

Well I'm 51 and graduated HS in'77.

I think Dmong "Selleck" is pushing the same age.LOL!

Hey I wonder what these old ferraris are worth now?


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www.Bluerosy.com

Peters May 06, 2010 03:26 PM

Well I'm 72 you youngsters. Snakes are still in my blood. theOLD-OLDherper

DMong May 06, 2010 04:03 PM

Yeah..LOL!, I'm the big 5-0 as of May 10th...ARRRGH!!

I remember when I thought that was so far off in the future, it wasn't even possible, but here we are on a snake forum as the years actually DID progress to that "impossible" point in time..LMAO!

I am really happy to see "peters, the OLD OLD herper" at 72 on the forums still enjoying snakes!

KEEP ROCKIN' ON WITH THE COOL REPTILES EVERYONE!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

ChristopherD May 06, 2010 03:15 PM

Getting bit by an exotic should be the norm in possibiles , At the media "HOLY Crap" stop yhe presses Child bitten by Snake while in class at school ..parent feel compensation is due

But a pet snake takes the heat
I think its cause they're slimmy/lol

DMong May 06, 2010 03:47 PM

"Child bitten by Snake while in class at school ..parent feel compensation is due"

Yeah, unfortunately, that is exactly how it would pan-out Chris!

Pure insanity man!

Whereas it SHOULD be more like...... "school classroom learns about nature and it's interesting animal behavior"

But who the hell are we kidding?, that wouldn't get the negative attention that the media is constantly seeking, would it?

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

BobS May 06, 2010 11:07 AM

Good point but most folks already fear snakes and a display like that,while dramatic but largely harmless can feed that inate fear. Older kids could probably process it like you said but I tend to think it will negatively affect little kids.

Just my opinion.

jodscovry May 06, 2010 09:47 PM

Bob's post was the only one to mention the most obvious problem which is that cal kings and splendida too are biters and chewers and their moody as well. Get a big choc/butter fl. king

Ameron May 06, 2010 11:54 AM

I've had several Kings, of at least 4 species, and have not personally seen this behavior. I've seen it in Cal King hatchlings I was examining for purchase, however.

I've not experienced "changed" behavior in terms of aggression. I have experienced the dilemma of my snake suddenly refusing to feed on a certain color of mouse, however. They can even switch the "offending" color later and begin feeding on it, refusing another color instead!

Generally - animals respond aggressively when they feel threatened or insecure. Maybe something is different that has been overlooked. Using any new lotions or creams which may offend the snake?

I've found that enough gentle handling by an experienced person calms almost all animals. I've had a 6-foot Texas Rat Snake that I could carry around comfortably.

However - some animals are not suited for handling and never tame. Just like some people never stop being mean or nasty. (They don't necessarily need to have a prior "bad incident", sometimes it's just their nature.)

If all the logical steps have been taken and your snake continues to strike, hold on and chew when you've clearly shown that it's not feeding time, it's best to replace it with another snake.

Also, you may have much better luck with the same species, just a different gender or specimen. Most herpers have found from long years of experience that the *INDIVIDUAL* matters much more than the species. (There are amiable Tex Rats, and Corn Snakes from hell. I've known people who have them.)

Ameron

1.0 Lampropeltis getula californiae (Carlsbad Wide-banded morph)
0.1 Lampropeltis getula californiae (Los Angeles County Coastal Banded morph)

www.flickr.com/photos/ameron08/

FR May 06, 2010 03:47 PM

Then this is a perfect example of what a reptile is. Use the behavior and test different conditions.

The original poster stated, fed once a week. There is no special formula or reptilian need to be fed once a week. That is a man made generalization.

Reptiles are ectotherms and their body temps directly relates to metabolism, and rate of metabolism relates to caloric need.

The classroom would be the perfect place to teach what it is to be a reptile and be controlled by temps and other conditions(humidity)

an example would be, if you gradually lower the temps, the snake would feed less and less and go longer times between feeding, if you gradually heat a cage up, it will feed more and more, until it gets to hot and it will fail. Normally failure is the snake regurgitating. If the temps are increased slowing, a degree or two a day, not harm will come to the snake.

Of course there is individual reaction to how fast they change behavior, but if other conditions are right, they all will follow a similar pattern.

In any case, there are many many experiments that can be very educational using this snake.

As usual, if a snake has its own ability to choose the temps and conditions it wants, WHICH IS WHAT THEY DO IN NATURE. Then you have a different animal altogether.

At certain times of the year, summer, they can and do feed daily, If they can get to the temps and conditions they want. Cheers

Bluerosy May 06, 2010 04:48 PM

Right on FR!

Thanks for slapping some sanity into these threads.
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www.Bluerosy.com

JKruse May 06, 2010 09:34 PM

...........kiss ass........... LOL.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Bluerosy May 06, 2010 09:58 PM

...........kiss ass........... LOL.

Actually it is not about "kiss ass'. When someone is right they are right. You just don't like him because he stepped on your toes. I would be to. And he has. I GOT OVER IT.

I have always been like that. i see past the personalities and look at the content. FR has done more thought provoking posts than anyone else on here. THAT IS HIS INTENT! Most people just post a pic and say "look at what I got" and then everone pats them on the back for showing a pic.

What a boring life this would be if everyone had the same outlook and personality. While I do admire certain belief systems and core values. In this case, as with FR, he has a lot of knowledge and info. You know it and so does everyone else. It does not mean i agree with FR on other things or what tune he (or whomever) may play on their instrument. But the lyrics do send the message.

So if "kiss ass" to you means. i am like a begger who is trying to absorb any informational crumbs falling from the table. i am guilty. There are not many people i can say that about.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Jeff Schofield May 07, 2010 02:34 PM

I agree with most of that. There are too many back slappers but the "HMMMMMMMMMMMMM" rambles, the pointed barbs, his view of the scientific community and the general amount of disinformation make FR almost non-educational. I'm not saying he doesnt mean well, but we all know too often he cant make a point on purpose.

JKruse May 07, 2010 11:39 PM

I'm just being playful Rainer...that's all. But i really liked this line you threw out there:

"It does not mean i agree with FR on other things or what tune he (or whomever) may play on their instrument. But the lyrics do send the message."

I agree with that. Frank sends a message.......indeed. and if i can be metaphorical as well:

"All people love a great meal, especially when it's presented on fine dinnerware....take the same food and present it on a trash can lid.....that same food will take on a whole different meaning and likely be turned away. Presentation counts for alot."

So it's not Frank that I dislike per-se, on the contrary, it's his all-too-often condescending and sarcasic delivery that makes me want to tweak his little nose. It's a personality flaw that you either dislike and either challenge/ignore, or, accept and flow with. Since i tend to like people almost as much as herps, I often defend people as well from unnecessary treatment. So try to give me some modicum of credit as well in trying to promote quality of life on these forums my friend.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

BobS May 08, 2010 09:36 AM

"All people love a great meal, especially when it's presented on fine dinnerware....take the same food and present it on a trash can lid.....that same food will take on a whole different meaning and likely be turned away. Presentation counts for alot."

So it's not Frank that I dislike per-se, on the contrary, it's his all-too-often condescending and sarcasic delivery that makes me want to tweak his little nose. It's a personality flaw that you either dislike and either challenge/ignore, or, accept and flow with. Since i tend to like people almost as much as herps, I often defend people as well from unnecessary treatment. So try to give me some modicum of credit as well in trying to promote quality of life on these forums my friend.

Jerry I think that was so well put. I kind of like Frank and respect folks like him that have a lot of knowledge and experience. I think somebody else once said that if somone talks down to you and treats you like crap you could have all the knowledge in the world but thanks anyway, I'll figure it out on my own. I also think Bluerosy makes a good point too. Frank has stepped on me and I shouln't take it so personally. It's his way. Oscar the grouch was a favorite Sesame Street character of mine! The garbage can lid meataphor was awesome. Thank you

Bluerosy May 08, 2010 09:39 AM

So much talk about nothing to do with snakes. At least FR talks snakes.
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www.Bluerosy.com

BobS May 08, 2010 09:45 AM

And at this point constructive not destuctive. And how would guns and Obama rants be about snakes? This is only a little off topic and somewhat relevant

BobS May 08, 2010 09:56 AM

Bluerosy You don't have to jump in and defend the man. He's going to come on and do the one , two punch and knock us all out anyway LOL He doesn't care if folks like him or respect him and his delivery method. It's all about the snakes. It's not likely he's going to say. " Your right, I've been kind of a jerk to you guys. I don't have to be such an attitude the way I impart my know how. I realize a lot of you are listening and trying to do the right things, sorry guys"

I don't know about Ya"ll But I'm going to take my advil now so it's kicked in before he pounds me! LOL

In his own way he's kind of like that cranky, always right uncle at family pic nics. It's not the end of the world to listen to him. Especially when he's right most of the time!

Bill

JKruse May 08, 2010 01:11 PM

Its so sad when humanity gets taken away from things. Remember, it's people talking here...some just might have feelings. You're a dad now.....PLEASE don't take human relationship out of things, even if it has to do with snakes. Let's all be decent role models too for everyone.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

BobS May 08, 2010 04:33 PM

Good point...

BobS May 08, 2010 04:41 PM

LOL

FR May 07, 2010 11:21 AM

That statement really shows what kind of person you are Jerry. To bad, too.

The points I try to make here are normally based on the appreciation of snakes as a whole. Not merely the morph or color pattern or how well they do in conditions forced upon them

In your case, why do you have Zonatas? Do you like them for the snake they are and what THEY DO? or do you like them because you can seperate yourself from the pack and work with a group thats not commonly specialized with?

You appear to have super pretty individuals of many types. Which is very unnatural. The colors are, not you. hahahahahaha

On occasion we field herpers wonder why folks keep all these goofy(to a field herper) morphs(exceptionally pretty ones are also a morph) Then keep them in drawers where you cannot "SEE" the beauty of the snake. You cannot observe its prettiness and you cannot observe its behavior(the real beauty of a species)

Then it becomes apparent, folks keep them that way, like they would other collectibles. Like baseball cards. They have a set, working on a better set of cards. You take them out to show others(take pics then show them here) then put them away. But do you watch them. And if so, watch them do what?

Well, to me this baseball card mentality has taken away what is unique about snakes, their behavior. And only cares about looks and how easy it is to keep them. Husbandry is taken to the most basic simplest form. Also everything is taken away from the animals your suppose to love/admire/appreciate. They are not allowed to behave in anyway other then mate, with whom you choose, lay eggs, recoup and do it again(with another mate of your choice)

What is odd to me is, what the frog beans do you think they do in nature. How do they set about feeding, growing, fighting off disease, finding mates, finding nests, avoiding predators(no laws out there to protect them) How do they find and use the conditions that support their lives?

I really do not mind if YOU JERRY take all that away from your animals, after all, their are yours. But it seems that appreciation of the animal is becoming a thing of the past. All anyone cares about is the next color phase or morph.

So Jerry, I come here and attempt to allow some folks(not you) to think, to wonder, to dream, about what these wonderful animals really are.

Whats funny is, in the field, these snakes are ALWAYS picking something, they are picking temps, which includes a range of temps during one day, they move to here, to there, and then to another place based on temps and task. This changes as the year goes by and the years go by. They are pairing up, sometimes staying with the same male for many years. Then at times finding a new mate if conditions change(the mate dies)

They have behavioral systems, and subsystems, and sub-subsystems as life and conditions change. Yet, in a cage, we give them, winter and summer and put a male in when its "TIME".

What's funny is, most here do not know when or how to tell what that "TIME" is.

So much of that is "overlooked" that it does allow me to understand why morphs and fantastic color patterns are what is sought after. And please, there is nothing wrong with that, but it seems so much of each snake is overlooked. The part that is overlooked is what is SPECIAL about those snakes, its what makes them, THEM. In fact, all of that is what allowed for your pretty snakes, that pretty was in their genotype, even if its not a normal phenotype.

I guess your problem with Bluerosy on this thread is, he didn't kiss your bum. Well he didn't kiss mine either, he simply appreciated my approach on this single thread.Cheers

BobS May 07, 2010 11:55 AM

Please don't take this disrespectfully.

Everyone here brings something to the table even when we mull over why this?, why that? It's how we learn. I have saved many photos and good posts to my favorites and documents over the years and have benefitted from the regulars over the years like yourself.

That being said, While I envy you to be able to observe all these things long term in nature Most of us rarely have the oppurtunity to do so and have to settle with having the "bug" for these animals and interacting with them in less than a "wild" manner(hence easily maintained cages) Not everyone is blessed to be able to look out their window and see wild horses. Most of us that enjoy horses for example have to come to grips that we have them in captivity and keep them in barns, turn them out, put them in stalls(hopefully large box stalls)and appreciate being able to share some good things in being around them. They will never combat to lead the herd, pick their own mates or choose to graze where they want. It is what it is. Same with Dogs. Pack animals we don't allow for pack mentality, hunting and group behaviours. Heck some folks just have cats.

Always appreciate hearing from folks that observe the real wild deal and am open to treating my animals better but feel like sometimes we need to make peace with their existance in captivity. Heck, sometimes I feel bad that I keep them as pets, other times I realize it makes my life more interesting.

I'd appreciate if you wouldn't nuke me. Just trying to respectfully express an opinion. My hairs just beginning to grow back from the last time.

Bob.

Bluerosy May 07, 2010 12:15 PM

Most of us that enjoy horses for example have to come to grips that we have them in captivity and keep them in barns, turn them out, put them in stalls(hopefully large box stalls)and appreciate being able to share some good things in being around them. They will never combat to lead the herd, pick their own mates or choose to graze where they want. It is what it is. Same with Dogs. Pack animals we don't allow for pack mentality, hunting and group behaviours. Heck some folks just have cats

When i was a kid i wanted a monkey. Maybe even a chimpanzee. I mean they are cute and I can play with them, right?...WRONG! There is a lot more to a chimp than a cat or dog. problem is people end up egtting snakes and learning afterwards or in most cases NEVER learning anything except what to feed them and how often.

Dogs, horses, cats. They are on a different evolutionary scale. Or intelligence level. They form bonds with the keeper and actually learn things.

Snakes are fossorial. They are what they are and we cannot change them with methods like we use for more domesticated animals. What the mistake us humans do is put them on the same level as pets of a different nature. That is the mistake that needs to be corrected.

I just had friend call me yesterday who wanted to get their 15 yrs old son a snake. The first thing they said was i need to feed them once per week, right?

That sort of information from pet shops and THF books is what we need to change. This misinformation has been around a long time. People will not learn anything by keeping a snake that way. The facination should be well past that to keep them. Anyone with interest SHOULD be told these things. if they get turned off , then their heart was in the wrong place for keeping snakes in the first place.

What just people want to hear in less than 1 minute is how to care for a snake. Nothing more. Next stop Walmart for the newest DS game and some aspen shavings.
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www.Bluerosy.com

BobS May 07, 2010 12:55 PM

Well I agree and disagree with with you.....you're entitled to your opinion too.

In Franks post he was clear that there is nothing wrong with keeping stuff in captivity. I guess I'm just expressing my opinion on what is realisticly possible in captivity while appreciating Franks opinions.

For example let's take Franks Buddy ( a nice guy by the way)
King snake set up is an elaborate 100 -150 gal Stock Tank filled with dirt for tunneling, Glass box on top for viewing above ground behaviours basking light,plants,water bowland bark.

0700 - snake underground "somewhere"
0800 - " "
1000 - " "
1302 - snake basking.
1315 snake underground
1400 - " "
1600 - " "
1820 - head stuck out of hole looking for food?
1826 - snake underground

2100 - snake cruising cage.
2105 - snake saw me and raced into hole.
2400 - I'm going to bed, can't take the excitement and I noticed my wooden floor is buckling from the weight.

Just kidding ,but well sometimes snakes are a bit boring and if they spend MOST of their time underground any way, WHAT ARE YOU OBSERVING! Tropical fish make more sense? LOL

BobS May 07, 2010 03:40 PM

Snakes are fossorial. They are what they are and we cannot change them with methods like we use for more domesticated animals. What the mistake us humans do is put them on the same level as pets of a different nature. That is the mistake that needs to be corrected.

Feral horses,dogs an cats return to their natural ways very quickly. They are largely the same animal and you always need to keep that in mind because they are ANIMALS that sometime react to things from instinct. They are not little people.

Habituating a snake to captivity in many, not ALL ways, is VERY similar on certain levels.

The definition of Fossorial too has the meaning of one that burrows, lives life underground, is equipped to burrow. Like water for fish you can see them and observe behaviours through glass but just by definition, unless you had a house size ant farm type of cage for fossorial snakes how can a person really "observe" all these "natural" behaviours? It is not necessarily practical or neccessary. I'm all for large clean cages but throwing in a few plants,some rocks and bark just does not cut it for people to say they have a "natural" set up.

I figure you have to challenge yourself when we mull over these things. It's just the questions that come to mind for me when we discuss these things.

Bluerosy May 07, 2010 04:09 PM

What i meant by being "fossorial" is that snakes are very different from horses, dogs or cats. People look at them as some sort of "pet". Which I think is a mistake. They think snakes like attention, being held and given some sort of companionship . This could not be further from the truth and the types of people i am appealing to are thoese that care enough about their snakes to learn from us.

The challenge is educating people, that even though snakes have eyes, a nose and breath air. They are not liken to treated as a "pet". Even fish and antfarms do better in captivity than a snake. Snakes really require better husbandry and until the owner has a better understanding of what its needs are, will they aquire a "green thumb" in keeping them. IMO that is where the true fun and values are in keeping a snake in a box.
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www.Bluerosy.com

FR May 07, 2010 12:40 PM

Hi Bill, a couple of things. First, All I hope for is for you and others to think. I hope that is not painful for you. I really enjoy thinking. I sit and watch wild snakes and think, I also sit and watch captives and think. To me that's fun.

Also, these are not wild horses(thank god) They are snakes. I think you know what a horse is, but do you or others know what a snake is? other then something pretty to play with?

I have nothing against pretty, but it does not have to exclude what the snake really is. The appreciation of the whole snake is nice too.

As I mentioned many times, wild snakes have the ability to "take care of themselves" yet captives cannot do anything without YOU or a vet doing it. How odd is that and why is that? (oh know that painful thinking thing again)

Snakes in nature consume parasites with most every meal and are fine and can live very long lives if something does not eat them. Yet a captive has one worm and off to the vet it goes. odd I tell you.

Wild snakes have huge scares, broken backs, etc etc and heal, yet a captive has to have an antibotic for a pin prick????????

WIld snakes go through reproduction with ease and without drama. Yet with captives, its not like that.(for the most part, some keepers get it, not many) Heck, with most wild females, you cannot even tell they laid the next day.

As you know, they are many common problems here, mostly with newbies, but also with the most experienced here. These are not the problems wild snakes endure.

Wild snakes avoid these common problems by picking their own basic needs and these needs are simple to meet and can be done in captivity with EASE. If fact, its been done for decades.

Sadly, it appears most of you treat these beautiful animals like they are complete idiots. How respectful is that. Bill, these animals are not idiots, in fact they are very much the opposite. They are expertly qualified to take care of themselves. Even when large mammal predators are constantly after them. They live in places that get really hot, really cold, really wet, really dry, full of dirt, hahahahahahahaha dirt and stuff and bacteria and stuff, yet they thrive to a point we cannot match in captivity. Funny hey!

Why on earth do you think these animals are helpless in captivity? Yet supremely aware and intelligent in nature?????????.

Also, why does it bother you that I speak of this "otherside" of the coin? You do not have to listen, but maybe someone else will? does that bother you?

Why did you have to post to me anyway? do you want me not to mention this stuff? I never ask you not to say something, do I?

Or is this forum only for fluff? Cheers

BobS May 07, 2010 01:08 PM

Not sure I'm disagreeing with anything you said or giving you a hard time. Maybe you should re-read it with a an open mind to see what a regular hobbyist is thinking and processing? Nobody wants to get nuked but if you can simply reply as someone bantering about a common interest, yahoo! it's all good!

FR May 09, 2010 10:11 AM

Its not about being nuked, is it? its about the understanding of the animals we on this forum love, or suppose to love, or like, or admire, or whatever reason we keep them.

In your post, you bring up, what they DO in the wild. This is the point I keep trying to make, what they do in the wild is a Direct reflection of what they ARE, both in the wild and in captivity.

They are the same snake, only with a different set of conditions. In nature, they are born(hatched) in an area, if they can find remember conditions that support them, use those conditions and make the right decisions, they will survive to recruit, if they keep making the right decisions, they live for a very long time. On my study site, I have individuals that are so old, they have totally lost their pattern, and with rattlesnakes, that could be many decades. I have wild individual gilas that I have watched for 32 years, and they have not aged. In both cases, they are still recruiting.

Their lives are all about making choices. Even simple choices like temps and humidity. These are made every single day of their lives.

Yet, once brought into captivity, we treat them like they are stupid and cannot do anything on their own.

The truth is, we give them things they have no way of understanding and they do not react in any way, so we call/treat them as stupid. In fact, we are speaking a different "language" and they simply do not understand. Therefore cannot make a decision. The reality is, we think we are smarter and force them to do what we want.

What is confusing to me is, you folks who complain about my approach, are the ones that often are pure this and local that. Yet, "WHAT" they do is what makes them pure this and local that. They look different, because they do something a little different, because the local IS a little different. They are not different so you can collect them and call them different.

What is important here is THIS, snakes have a wonderful superior immune system. They can and do survive from injuries that would kill a human many times over. And in nature, have not shown to be susceptible to disease, particularly common gram-negative bacteria that is so common in captivity.

In captivity, most of the health problems lead to two things, a suppressed immune system from improper conditions/choices. And all manner of behavioral problems.

These things are so easily cured its insane. If fact, its far easier to "do it right" then fix all the problems from doing it wrong.

Once you get the physical problems fixed, you can then turn your attention to what these animals are behaviorally. Then keeping snakes becomes FUN, EDUCATIONAL(they will teach you what they are) and very very interesting. All the while, you can keep the colors and morphs to your liking(eye candy).

You stated, you don't have the ability to do these things. But you do, you just don't understand what to do. Also many say, I have to many animals to do that to all of them. No one every said, anyone HAS to do something to all of them. How about start with one and learn, then decide from there. No need for A to Z.

As an older fella who has kept and bred KINGS, since 1964, I find the problem is interest, that is, keeping yourself interested in what your doing.

Another example is, you folks that keep pretty snakes, the truth is, they will all get old, lose their color and be UGLY for over half their lifespan. or do you plan on getting rid of them as they age?

As I have mentioned, this IS NOT REQUIRED, but some folks really want more out of their captives and want more FOR their captives. My rants are for them, maybe not you or Jerry.

I think your a good person, and surely the above paragraph may interest you, getting more out of your captives and wanting more for your captives. Consider, keeping a snake in a sweater box is about like burying one in a small section of its burrow, then giving it food and water enough to keep it alive and maybe have babies. Cheers

BobS May 09, 2010 10:35 AM

Have a good Sunday. Hope you get to see a lot of your "friends" if you get out in the field today.

Thanks again,

Bob.

JKruse May 09, 2010 01:41 PM

are they field pics of a light box of sorts.....very nice pics......
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

BobS May 09, 2010 02:30 PM

Thanks. No . Just some lucky pics taken in my backyard of some Montgomery County Easterns I got from Scott Kootns over at Uwharrie. They are favorites of mine. I have been feeding them as much as they want and often as has been the general theme here these days and they are well over 3' and 09's!

JKruse May 09, 2010 02:32 PM

2009's?????? MY GOD. That's incredible. You're doing great with them Bob. Now lets see some babies eventually. Can we see a pic of the pair in the same post please?? Very nice snakes indeed.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

BobS May 09, 2010 02:40 PM

Thanks, I'll give it a try soon. It's a trio I got from Scott. One always seem to be in shed at the wrong time when trying for pics. LOL

I am jealous of Frank and folks like him that can step outside and see wild ones and I'm jealous of folks like CrimsonKing who take such great pics!

Have a good day.

JKruse May 09, 2010 01:39 PM

FRANK RETES.......LISTEN TO ME FOR ONCE........

I LIKE YOU........I DO NOT LIKE HOW YOU DELIVER INFORMATION SOMETIMES.

THAT'S ALL. I'M SURE YOU AND I COULD HANG FOR A DAY AND BE FINE IN PERSON, BUT WHEN YOU WRITE IT IS SOMETIMES VERY VERY CONDESCENDING. MYSLEF AND MANY OTHERS DO NOT APPRECIATE THAT REGARDLESS OF HOW GREAT THE INFORMATION IS.

THE ONLY ISSUE I HAVE HAD, NAD WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE, IS HOW YOU TREAT PEOPLE SOMETIMES. THAT'S ALL.

I would apreciate ONLY Frank in replying to this....not Rainer, not Davis, not CDarwin, and now not "peters"......JUST FRANK, as it is intended for ONLY Frank whom I DO LIKE but DO NOT like how he talks to others many-a-times. Thank you.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

FR May 09, 2010 02:15 PM

Did I spell that right. You can find it anywhere if you look. Like Cindy said above, why not look for the meat of the subject and not worry about what you feel is condescending.

When ever two people come together to discuss different views, something has to be "condescending" or taken as lack of knowledge.

You live in New York don't you. Well, that makes me wonder, folks in your area are the kings of fluff. That is, they make a point, but its very hard to find between derogatory adjectives.

Truely, I do not mean to be condescending or rude. I do mean to be STRAITFORWARD and direct. Which is something I like. If there is something you do not understand, please ask me about it, do not assume its something against you, or condescending.

Also, I come from a foundation that we ALL suck as keepers. So I do not have that I am better then you thing, that is normally assigned by people who do not understand what I am saying. As you should know, I have been doing this for a very long time, and oddly enough, I have worked with reptiles in the field for just as long. Also oddly enough, everything I brought into the hobby for husbandry, has come from the field and tested with captives.

Even more odd, I was one of the original pioneers of "hibernation" and such folks as Erine Wagner was an original supporters of photoperiod. We got along very well.

Of course, I now do not support either. Those were merely primitive tools to gain some manner of captive success.

I already understand we all have our own unique approach. And I hope we are all welcome to them. But that should not stop me from hopefully some folks to see that these is MORE to these snakes. Most folks WANT to understand the animals they are keeping, some only want instant success. Then theres anything and everything inbetween.

What gets me is, why do you care what I say. You seem to be doing very well. I should be of no threat to you. But you treat me like one, why is that?

Does it bother you that I use you as an example? It shouldn't, its a compliment. People use me all the time. hahahahahahahahahahahaha for good and bad, I do not really care which one.

Anyway, have a great mothers day and keep up the good work. Cheers

p.s. I did not read any of the other posts that caused the grief.

JKruse May 09, 2010 02:29 PM

and I appreciate your response, but Frank what you're failing to acknowledge is that amny folks have said directly to you how they felt sleighted or spoken down to, and instead of acknowledging it and apologizing, you further downplayed it. I'm not fabricating that, as I'd never target someone just to be a pr*ck. It has been my numerous observations.

I believe ALL keepers are not perfect either, and we NEVER will be. That's a clear fact. We can NEVER duplicate nature no matter what we do. And I accept that (painful) reality, and I think you do too. Frank I want to get along with you, really i do. But it's your manner of delivery to "get people to think" that just is so bitter and tweaked that it just turns some off. I have no reason to not like you, although I don't believe in and will never endorse the practice of intentional hybridization and vehemnetly disagree with you on it, it doesnt mean I'm targeting you personally. Maybe some past arguments have gotten heated, but simple, direct, and kind information is best received....AND you can still make people think at the same time.

Why not try that on for size, is all I'm asking. You ask me to think about my captives, and indeed i have. You've encouraged me to make a few changes. And I have. And they're working. So for that thank you Frank. But in turn I ask you to think about how you approach others in your attempt to teach. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with that, and why that's not more widely accepted (although it already is by the majority as evidenced by past support both via posts and personal emials I've received after our prior arguments) is beyond me.

Bottom line is that we need each other as much as our captives need us. Never take humanity out of the hobby that we all cherish, as it makes it all that much more enjoyable.

Be well, and have a Happy Mother's Day as well. I hope going forward we can both "think" in ways that we wish for each other.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

peters May 09, 2010 01:30 AM

I'm with you. Great post. I love what nature created, not what man created. the OLDherper

JKruse May 08, 2010 12:06 AM

No one said I didnt appreciate your post.....but since you're not "allowing me to think" as you'd mentioned (and just WHO has a control issue here? LOL), I guess you shouldnt have even responded to my response to RAINER, now should you have? I think not my friend.

Also, since when did I get lumped into the "morph group"....Frank I typically don't like morphs at all......actually, anery and hypo genetics are kinda neat, but I make no efforts at tinkering with making peanut butter and jelly snakewiches either!!! LMAO. So please don't go there buddy -- that's not me. I specifically breed for locality and select for pretty snakes, period. And you know this.

Lastly, THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN EVER, EVER REPLICATE OR DUPLICATE WHAT NATURE CAN OFFER. So just stop it already. 99.8% of the folks that are in the hobby (for some an industry) will not create a 10x10 outdoor, escape-proof pen for their pair of snakes complete with misting system and ranges of temps of 50 through 120F, underground lairs and rock formations. And neither do we do this in our homes which is even more remotely possible despite Mike russo's on-going efforts to get one end of the 55 gallon into the fridge with the other end in the stove (LOL)......we just don't do this, and I've seen some try almost at the expense of melting their tubs or creating a hazardous condition. WE DO THE BEST WE CAN, some more than others given individual efforts of creativity, desire, monetary means, etc etc.

Your views are often great, and it IS very thought provoking. But replicating this entirely in such restrictive conditions just is not entirely possible -- maybe to SOME degree, but not entirely. So given that PAINFUL reality for you Frank, does that mean we should all not keep herps in captivity if we can not provide as you preach?

And are you saying that you provide more for your colubrids than just a tub laden with aspen shavings, clean water dish, a hide spot or two, and a basic temp gradient? I've been asking you to post a photo for years on this matter, and you've refused. You've "ousted" me from your abusive learning brigade, and that's fine. I can get information easily with only a fraction of the sarcasm you heartily dish out. But I still can't help but feel you keep your colubrids pretty much the same as the average Joe yet flaunt a mysterious fool-proof system that you want us to "figure out". But you won't dare to completely share it because you want us to "figure it out".....how sadistic in some ways that is! LOL. It's like you want us to believe you have a 45 Magnum pointing from under your cloak, but what you REALLY have under there is nothing more than a banana. LMAO! Why not just be more transparent? You might have more comrades other than those hungry coachwhips you've also seemed to brainwash with a hot mouse.

And by the way, the next time my wife gets pissed off catching me just "watching" my snakes (as I sometimes do), I'm just gonna tell her it's Frank Retes' fault -- YOU can deal with her. LOL!
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Jeff Schofield May 08, 2010 01:01 AM

Jerry, you are a mirror that shines buddy! Opinions are great but they are not fact. But you do have to admit now that most of us havent taken him on head on that his posts are at least comprehensive. He is getting better, has that to do with us or him?

thomas davis May 08, 2010 07:07 PM

just bravo,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

markg May 06, 2010 04:42 PM

Feeding response can change with the age and season. For example, this snake might want more food right now and might taper off a month or two later.

I don't know how much he is feeding the snake, but sounds like the snake wants more. Worth looking into anyway.

And BobS is correct, not all kingsnakes are completely predictable in this regard.

Some parents freak out about this stuff. I brought a milksnake for share day in my son's 1st grade class. The teachers thanked me for not letting the kids hold it, because they were worried about bites, how the kids would react and how the parents would react. So I held it and walked around so each kid could see it up close. Worked out much better for everyone and the snake.
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Mark

KINGBOA May 06, 2010 05:13 PM

I have a male MBK that was tame as hell when I got him. I started holding him while I fed him and after he ate he would try to eat me which was cute at the time, him being so small but as he got bigger he would attack me as soon as he saw my hand. Not so fun. He would bite on constrict and try to eat my finger relentlessly! This year I brumated him and breed him to my female and his eating me mode STOPPED COMPLETELY! He eats 2 mice a week, I used to feed him way more hoping his attack mode would subside but it didn't. Now after brumation/breeding, I have a snake I feel comfortable if anybody held him without the fear of him biting. I don't know if my experience with mine helps you but I hope so. Steve

KINGBOA May 06, 2010 07:08 PM

Anyone else have this happen (My previous post about biting). Just curious. Steve

markg May 06, 2010 07:51 PM

But also, the male's caloric needs probably changed too from back when he was a biter.
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Mark

littleangel77007 May 07, 2010 01:19 AM

She's probably a little over 1 year old now, I'm not sure exactly how much he's feeding her now. I know he's feeding once to twice a week, and he's increased the size of the mice. (Feed more often was the first thing I suggested since biting and holding on is more of a feeding response than an agressive response.) I'm wondering if maybe the classroom activity is just overwhelming. I'm thinking that if he brings the snake (cage and all) home and puts it in a quiet spot, feeds frequently, and works on gradual reacclimation to handling, she may calm down. That's my theory anyway. Thanks for all the great advice!

And in response to a question I was asked by a herper I was talking to, my friend uses long tongs to feed, so the snake shouldn't be associating his hands with food.

BobS May 07, 2010 10:41 AM

But my personal experience has been that on many occassions a snake in a high traffic area can get bomb proof (used to lots of goings on). You often see it in petshops with high traffic. An ordinarily nervous species acting calm as a kitten. For sure not for all snakes and I'm sure it can push some individuals over the edge but something I have observed over the years.

I have at times put snakes in very large planted cages with lots of hides and they were so stressed when I went in to service the cage or feed them that I found myself feeling bad for the trauma simple tasks caused where prior they were kept in moderate size enclosures and were calm compliant well adjusted individuals. All snakes are individuals but a common trend I've observed.

Good luck with whatever you both decide to do .

varanid May 07, 2010 11:22 AM

Watching 24 doesn't equate to cognitive function

I've seen it go both ways; I had a rescue cal king that was spastic but settled down pretty well in a large planted tank. I think it's just each snake being different.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Bluerosy May 07, 2010 11:40 AM

But my personal experience has been that on many occassions a snake in a high traffic area can get bomb proof (used to lots of goings on). You often see it in petshops with high traffic. An ordinarily nervous species acting calm as a kitten. For sure not for all snakes and I'm sure it can push some individuals over the edge but something I have observed over the years.

I have at times put snakes in very large planted cages with lots of hides and they were so stressed when I went in to service the cage or feed them that I found myself feeling bad for the trauma simple tasks caused where prior they were kept in moderate size enclosures and were calm compliant well adjusted individuals. All snakes are individuals but a common trend I've observed.

That is a very good and valid observation. Reminds me of when i used to go into pet shops and reptile speciality stores.

I was still a kid when I bought my last snake in a pet shop. I noticed the snakes were real calm while in the shop. Then I would set them up in a 'terrrariaum/ habitat" and and the snake changed their personality. Sometimes I thought it would be better to leave the snake in plain view with nothing to hide in. Just to make them more tame and calm them down. But I knew better and i didn't. I alway opted for privacy for my snakes and other reptiles. I remember when feeding my banded geckos and other more secretive animals i would yell at people to make sure nobody stepped into my room unanounced. lol! I was a terrible prebubesent teen.
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www.Bluerosy.com

varanid May 07, 2010 11:44 AM

Glad I'm not the only one that's done that :-D "No, don't come in, the ball python might eat!"
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

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