Reptile & Amphibian Forums

LATEST HERPDIGEST:

1) Interior Department Exempted BP Drilling From Environmental Review:
In Rush to Expand Offshore Oil Drilling, Interior Secretary Salazar Abandoned Pledge to Reform Industry-dominated Mineral Management Service

(Editor’s Note : The general accusation of this press release that the Interior Dept. Exempted BP from Environmental Review has been shown to be true in articles in Washington Post and New York Times. Their articles weren’t as detailed as this release so I printed the release.)

Press Release TUCSON, Ariz.— 5/10/10 Ken Salazar’s first pledge as secretary of the interior was to reform the scandal plagued Mineral Management Service (MMS), which had been found by the U.S. inspector general to have traded sex, drugs, and financial favors with oil-company executives. In a January 29, 2009 press release on the scandal, Salazar stated:

“President Obama's and my goal is to restore the public's trust, to enact meaningful reform…to uphold the law, and to ensure that all of us -- career public servants and political appointees -- do our jobs with the highest level of integrity."

Yet just three months later, Secretary Salazar allowed the MMS to approve — with no environmental review — the BP drilling operation that exploded on April 20, 2010, killing 11 workers and pouring millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf of Mexico. The disaster will soon be, if it is not already, the worst oil spill in American history.

BP submitted its drilling plan to the MMS on March 10, 2009. Rather than subject the plan to a detailed environmental review before approving it as required by the National Environmental Policy Act, the agency declared the plan to be “categorically excluded” from environmental analysis because it posed virtually no chance of harming the environment. As BP itself pointed out in its April 9, 2010, letter to the Council on Environmental Quality, categorical exclusions are only to be used when a project will have “minimal or nonexistent” environmental impacts.

MMS issued its one-page approval letter to BP on April 6, 2009.

“Secretary Salazar has utterly failed to reform the Mineral Management Service,” said Kierán Suckling, executive director of the Center for Biological Diversity. “Instead of protecting the public interest by conducting environmental reviews, his agency rubber stamped BP’s drilling plan, just as it does hundreds of others every year in the Gulf of Mexico. The Minerals Management Service has gotten worse, not better, under Salazar’s watch.”

As a senator, Salazar sponsored the “Gulf of Mexico Energy Security Act of 2006,” which opened up large swaths of the Gulf of Mexico to offshore oil drilling and criticized the MMS for not issuing enough offshore oil leases. As interior secretary, he has pushed the agency to speed offshore oil drilling and was the architect of the White House’s March, 2010, proposal to expand offshore oil drilling in Alaska, the eastern Gulf of Mexico, and the Atlantic Coast from Maryland to Florida.

After meeting with Gulf oil executives early this week, Rep. Edward Markey (D-Mass.) told the Washington Post: “I’m of the opinion that boosterism breeds complacency and complacency breeds disaster. That, in my opinion, is what happened.” The boosterism started at the top, with Interior Secretary Ken Salazar.

Excerpts from the BP drilling plan that was categorically excluded from
environmental review by the Department of the Interior:

“2.7 Blowout Scenario - A scenario for a potential blowout of the well from which BP would expect to have the highest volume of liquid hydrocarbons is not required for the operations proposed in this EP.”

“14.5 Alternatives - No alternatives to the proposed activities were considered to reduce environmental impacts.”

“14.6 Mitigation Measures - No mitigation measures other than those required by regulation and BP policy will be employed to avoid, diminish or eliminate potential impacts on environmental resources.”

“14.7 Consultation - No agencies or persons were consulted regarding potential impacts associated with the proposed activities.”

“14.3 Impacts on Proposed Activities - The site-specific environmental conditions have been taken into account for the proposed activities and no impacts are expected as a result of these conditions.”

“14.2.3.2 Wetlands - An accidental oil spill from the proposed activities could cause impacts to wetlands. However, due to the distance to shore (48 miles) and the response capabilities that would be implemented, no significant adverse impacts are expected.” (p. 45)

“14.2.2.1 Essential Fish Habitat - …In the event of an unanticipated blowout resulting in an oil spill, it is unlikely to have an impact based on the industry wide standards for using proven equipment and technology for such responses, implementation of BP's Regional Oil Spill Response Plan which address available equipment and removal of the oil spill.”

Contact: Kierán Suckling, (520) 275-5960

Visit the Center’s new Gulf Disaster website for more details: www.biologicaldiversity.org/gulf_disaster
_________________________________________________________________
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I guess Ken is too busy banning boas and pythons to concern himself with oil drilling stuff!

This unfortunate situation and the winter of '09 -'10 have both proven that our government regulators, the ones we count on to do the real work in protecting us from real threats have once again outsourced the thought process to the money interests they are there to protect us from. They let the money talk for them and they completely dropped the ball.

Wall Street is but another sad example of Government failure. The tail wagging the dog.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The push for deregulation over the last 30 years is the REAL culprit behind these fiascos...

Ahhh yes. I believe it was Senator Phil Graham from my home state, then Chairman of the Senate Banking Committee that dismantled Wall Street regulation and neutered the Government's oversight and enforcement abilities. While his wife sat on the Board of Directors over at Enron. His good friend John McCain did a good job assisting him on that, as well.
Remember when Presidential candidate McCain made Phil Graham his financial/economic advisor. That lasted until Phil opened his mouth. lol On a side note, does anyone remember way back when, John McCain's involvement in the Gibraltar S&L scandal from the 1980's?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yup...Gramm-Leach-Bliley killed Glass-Steagall.

And I do remember the S&L crisis, but some here might require a time-machine for that one. Or at least Google.

I saw this as well-absolutely reprehensible, and illustrates in a graphic manner what is wrong with our regulatory system.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Our issue can and should very well be the tipping point to end Government interference into individual's lives. While at the same time the Government allows the foxes to rob the hen house. They're all asleep at the switch just like Casey Jones. Doing the People's work does NOT mean lining one's pockets.

The American Public should be made aware! This isn't just a snake or no snake issue, it is a personal freedom or no personal freedom issue. It applies to all.

Simply because serpents are the subject, what would normally an easy take-away, they have pushed the wrong crowd into a corner one time too many. Let this be their Waterloo. Let this be the straw that broke the Camel's back. Let the tide turn and turn hard NOW!

As I've said many times, we get the Government we deserve. Isn't America sick and tired of the fear peddlers, hypocrites, demagogues, and robber barons by now? Haven't we had our fill? Don't we deserve better? God, I sure hope so, for all our sake and for all our descendent's sake.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The flip side here is that we need to be more responsible as citizens.

It seems to me that the non-native animal problem can be traced to irresponsible owners, who, in turn may be able to lay *some* of the responsibility for their ignorance at the feet of unscrupulous or ignorant vendors.

Rational egoism (‘I’) is problematic. The paradox wherein acting in your best interest isn’t always in your best interest.

An apropos example:

Dumping a python in the Everglades when it outgrows it's cage or becomes too expensive to feed may not be a big deal, but when enough misinformed irresponsible snake owners dump multiple pythons, voila: native ecosystem becomes taxed. Ecological failure in the making.

Ecological failures could be exemplified by polluters acting in their own interest create aggregate environmental conditions with other polluters which in turn creates collective consequences to shared resources.

So, the fact remains that unless citizens decide to do a better job of governing themselves, we'll have Government trying to do it for us.

"Dumping a python in the Everglades when it outgrows it's cage or becomes too expensive to feed may not be a big deal, but when enough misinformed irresponsible snake owners dump multiple pythons, voila: native ecosystem becomes taxed. Ecological failure in the making."

Steph, this has been proven to be nothing more than urban legend hearsay propaganda, intentionally placed rumor mill fear mongering, strategically placed into the media by the AR crowd in order to further their own agenda. Nothing but pure speculation. Not a shred of truth to it.
You of all people should know better than to repeat this fantasy, thereby insinuating that this garbage has a kernel of truth to it!

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Clarify please...you don't think that any of the snakes were dumped or you don't think that they represent a problem in FL ecosystems? Or any other option...

The python population in S. Florida, if there is one left, was NOT there from snakes being dumped one at a time by individuals tired of their pets.

That is PURE speculation, here-say and urban myth intentionally planted in the media by the AR crowd. Even their scientists have backed away from that BIG LIE.

I'm honestly shocked that you do not know that, as much of a stickler for documentation, fact, and evidence as you are.

I'm not kidding. It would seem you are demonstrating a credibility bias relative to sources, here.

The scientists/biologists have been real quiet on that other point, as well. Probably not as much to it as originally speculated.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

So they got there how, in your opinion? And can that be proved over any other supposed method of release (for lack of a better term)?

Steph,
you need to go over to the bermese python forum. there is a mountain of info about where they came from.
Rob

OK I found a post from wall to wall that included the following statement

"The Burmese Pythons which inhabit the Everglades National Park
were introduced as hatchling imports. A group of 900 babies that were not yet imprinted to human care or captive conditions.
During Hurricane Andrew these snakes escaped because of the destruction of a wholesale facility near the Everglades National Park. It was the result of a natural disaster which introduced these snakes to the Everglades....It was not the act of irresponsible pet owners or reptile keepers."

However this statement was not bolstered with citations of any hard evidence, just an old lecture about the imprinting problem with another species.

can you direct me to the literature that proves that they came from another source or sources? Right now all I can find are articles generated by people in the herp business but no credible source material seems to be cited.

Thanks

WHERE IS THE CREDIBLE SOURCE THAT PROVES THEY WERE RELEASED BY OWNERS? THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A SINGLE ARREST HERE IN FLORIDA OF ANYONE CHARGED IN RELEASING PYTHONS EVER. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? IF YOU HAD A SHRED OF SENSE ABOUT NUMBERS IT TAKES TO ESTABLISH A SPECIES YOU WOULDN'T SAY THINGS THAT MAKE YOU LOOK UNEDUCATED. PUBLISHED DNA DATA POINTS TOWARD THE SAME CONCLUSION OF THE HURRICANE.....IF YOU ACTUALLY LEARN MORE ABOUT THE SUBJECT IT WOULD BE HELPFUL TO YOU...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

There is absolutely no need to resort to the Ugly-American-Tourist tactic of shouting in order to make oneself understood.

If you refer to this paper:

http://www.usark.org/uploads/FloridaBurmGenetics.pdf

really, it's inconclusive. The sample is very small and merely hints at supporting what amounts to conjecture.

Then stop being an UGLY AMERICAN and an uneducated one as well on this subject matter you continually make conclusions about based on "0" knowledge...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

John, their being real quiet because soon the RODDA-REED PAPER will be exposed for all the world to see that is was all pure fabrication and speculation when it was written. No one wants to be the last guy on a ship that springs a leak far out to sea with only limited life rafts. In the coming weeks it will become abundantly clear this whole thing had nothing to do with any real threat [we all knew that anyway] but was motivated by AR nut's and politics. The problem is we were underestimated in our proffessionalism and determination. HAT'S OFF TO USARK ON THIS ONE. I SPOKE TO ANDREW THIS MORNING AND ALTHOUGH WE CAN'T LET UP THINGS ARE LOOKING BETTER...I want to personally thank everyone for their help during this crisis and we still must prepare to continue the war. We must all stand as one...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>Clarify please...you don't think that any of the snakes were dumped or you don't think that they represent a problem in FL ecosystems? Or any other option...

Nice tap dance. You are the one making both claims/implications (ie, that pythons are causing an ecological disaster and that irresponsible owners caused the python breeding population to come about.) Present your reasoning and evidence to support those claims/implications.

No, I'm trying to obtain a clarification. If you think that asking someone to be more specific is tap dancing then we don't have much to discuss.

Honestly, no one is trying to be cute or clever here. All that stuff was discussed at length maybe a month or so ago with Amazondoc and all the rest of us here, on the Burmese forum.
There is also some input from Mike Rochford, a Florida biologist working in the field.
Other forums -- Ball Python and Reticulated Python forums also have reference to their origin.
There is substantial genetic evidence they originated from a single source during Hurricane Andrew.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Steff you seem very intelligent .The question I wish to ask you is do you keep any reptile pets.While I agree that a small few snakes have been released by hobbiests in some places.The everglades population has been genetic tested and proven to be of one origin.What purpose does it serve to keep repeating that they were released by the public.It seems you are very interested in this subject as you have posts in almost every thread about this.What is your interest or agenda for the outcome of this.I am anti big government in any form.I do not keep pythons but was at one time long ago.The one thing I can say for sure is .I know no herper who would let loose a python as even now they are easy to sell.What I do not want to see is Americans loosing more rights than we already have.What is your view on our American rights we continue to loose every year.Should our children be able to own a captive bred python or not.The truth is I am all for the stopping of importing burms as we have plenty to do just fine.On the other hand many people have invested big money in burms and will loose everything they have if this ban goes through.What is your personal view on this issue.
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Archie Bottoms

I keep box turtles. And obviously I missed the discussion and the paper on genetic testing having been done on the pythons in question. Has that data been published somewhere that I may be able to access and read in it's complete form?

You know what Steff I love box turtles so much I will not collect one ever.I have had them but they were given to me by idiots who picked them up and did not know there care.My son is one of the idiots.The biggest fight I have ever had with my son was him selling box turtles, to me a big no no.The information came to me from some one here and I would like to read it all myself.This would be a good time to present it I would think.In Texas I am glad that the boxies have been black listed.Its this exotic thing that has me puzzled why now why so much .A national ban will make out laws out of good Americans and that to me is a crime in its self.
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Archie Bottoms

And you will probably loose the right to keep box turtles too.

I know in PA we can't keep them anymore, just a few years back they decided that. We were never allowed to breed & sell them, but we used to be allowed to have 2 of each native species who were not endangered/protected. Now we are allowed one of each of only a small number of native species by comparison.

We can only currently keep the exotics and ones not found native here, like the ornate or 3 toes.

More stupid "window dressing" laws. Elementally useless, but they sound good to the people making the laws. None of it stops the habitat destruction, or real poachers.

Steph, your not even qualified to make any conclusion of any kind regarding Burmese Pythons or any other herps. You can't establish a population of Pythons without a release of substantial numbers in the same area at the same time. That should just be good common sense on the subject of populations of alien herps...thanks...The point is NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE BUT THE EVIDENCE POINTS AT THE HURRICANE...The only other way would be a deliberate release of many hundreds which would be an expensive proposition as a Burmese at it's cheapest still cost $35-$40 each. Do the math....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Right. So nobody knows for sure. Thanks!

YOU'RE FINALLY RIGHT. Why then do you consistently blame it on relleased pets by disgruntled owners. "I know you didn't" even though the only reason I finally said anything was because of your blatent disregard of evidence and jumping on the "blame herper's releasing them" bandwagon....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

If you think that having spent $35-$40 on an animal represents a deterrent to dumping then you're either naive or you're being disingenuous.

People divest themselves of possessions all the time, in order to cut their losses.

I think you've missed the point. What Tom is saying is --- why would one choose to loose everything in order "to cut their losses" when they could just as easily take their no longer wanted pet to the local exotic store for a meaningful reduction to their loss.

This shows how little you truly know about the subject.
And why is OK for you to use your flawed logic for points you support and at the same time dismiss others reasoning that comes to a different conclusion.

Not sure if you just cannot accept defeat, of if you are truly such a great Python hater. Of course, if you were a true environmentalist, you would no doubt release your artificially confined Box Turtles to take their own chances in the wild, as Mother Nature intended. Or quite possibly you are just another Herpocrite.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Psssst. Your myopia is showing....

Are you being realistic in assuming that any exotic shop will take in unwanted snakes?

And back at ya with this one:

"And why is OK for you to use your flawed logic for points you support and at the same time dismiss others reasoning that comes to a different conclusion."

Pot, meet Kettle...

As for the turtles in my care, speculate all you want: by doing so you simply demonstrate your natural bias and narrow mindedness with regards to real or perceived 'opponents'.

Fact remains that you're a victim of the same mindset that you so abhor in others by whom you feel threatened.

"As for the turtles in my care, speculate all you want: by doing so you simply demonstrate your natural bias and narrow mindedness with regards to real or perceived 'opponents'."

If you're not worried, then I'd say your statement most likely puts you in league those select few that are indeed the cronies of authority...that I can, you can't elitist mentality...the self justification...the inflated ego...the Naturalista Intelligencia.

jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Wrong again. You continue to demonstrate yourself to be extraordinarily unimaginative.

But that's so easy for you, isn't it?

No Steph.

You are clearly the unimaginative one here.

You are the one with that Ban Baby Ban manta ringing in your head and echoing from your finger tips.

We are the ones with the comprehensive thoughtful alternatives.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Steph you have no real knowledge to base any of you're assumptions on. You're talking to advanced Herpetoculturist who have forgot more about the subject matter than you know. Basically I think your an argumentive kid on a little league team trying to play ball with the Major league. Your outmatched and you'd look better telling your friends how enlightened you are but all your doing here is providing myself and others cheap entertainment. I believe your Box Turtles would do far better released. Box Turtles in situ [look up meaning] roam large areas in their home range which is something you can't provide. Also Box Turtles have a very low reproduction rate and most should NOT be placed in captivity except for breeding programs. There is a plethora of U.S. c.b. turtles that are similar to keep and pose no threat in reducing already diminishing populations of native Terrapene ssp. For instance for fun we hatch Rhinoclemmys p. manni [look up indentification] here like chickens. They're prettier than most Box Turtles and have similar needs. Why do you want to put pressure on poor Box Turtles already under pressure for many reasons but yet "know that Pythons are injurious" and that us releasing them is why their here [even though NO hunter I know has seen a wild one for months now post freeze]? Do you know why most Box Turtles now are protected in almost every state they occur? It's because numbers are dwindling in nature. Yet you by your own admission are a beginning hobbiest. That's like a kid who gets his first firearm. Most kids get a BB gun but you getting a fully automatic weapon...Yup, I believe your a Herpocrit like John says and worse without a whit of real life experience or ability...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Like Tom said do the math based on the premise that the initial population started from a group of 900 burms that sold for at that time $35 to $40 each that comes to about $31,500 to $36,000.
I realize that people have been known to gamble away that much money and more or blow that much money up their nose but somehow I think the thrill of deliberately turning a bunch of snakes loose in the everglades to see what they do has quite the same thrill of gambling or doing coke.
Since I don't do any of the three I can't give you that hard documented evidence you seem to want. But I can take a wild guess that I'm right and I can do the math that you seem unable to do and without a calculator no less (woohoo!!!)

In all likelihood the dealer had some insurance coverage.

Insurance for what? Intentionally releasing the Python colony?
You are lost. Barking up the wrong tree again. You are arguing points that are truly irrelevant to the discussion, while at the same time avoiding answers.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Loss of inventory due to 'hurricane'. Doh!

I thought you were talking about intentionally releasing unwanted snakes?

So, the guy saw that the hurricane was coming and he intentionally released his unwanted snakes prior to the hurricane coming, in order to clean up on the insurance money?

Is that what you're saying?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Well in that case I guess it wouldn't have been a deliberate release then would it ? If they were attempting insurance fraud they would not have released them either they most likely would have hidden them somewhere and sold them off later in addition to keeping the insurance money.
You seem to talk in circles like my (as of later today.) former drummer who has a thing for eating funny mushrooms. Perhaps you have been spending too much time with him. We are canning him for a reason perhaps you should take note and not eat such mushrooms.

ROFL. Or they grossly inflated their claim, like so many people do.

Now I finally realize your problem. You don't go "cow tipping" do you? Is that where you got your Box Turtles from?...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

ARE YOU KIDDING? You can't insure herps except by underwriting by Lloyds of London and then you have "to pick your perils". I know as I tried many years ago. The price is so much because they're living things that it's better to assume the risk yourself. Again shows what you lack and that is any real info or knowledge....If this were a SATS test you would be in the low one percent of students....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Was math NOT a strong subject in addition to reading comprehension. I SAID HUNDREDS RELEASED AT THE SAME TIME WOULD BE NECESSARY MULTIPLIED BY $35-$40...If you can just multiply only 100 x $35 = $3,500...GET THE PICTURE....You didn't the first time....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>No, I'm trying to obtain a clarification. If you think that asking someone to be more specific is tap dancing then we don't have much to discuss.

More tap dancing. What is it you wish to "discuss"? You made the claims, now back them up or stop repeating them. That's all I'm asking. Isn't that what you require from others??

Regarding the DNA study, here's a hint - do a Google search on "GENETIC CHARACTERIZATION OF POPULATIONS OF THE NONINDIGENOUS BURMESE PYTHON IN EVERGLADES NATIONAL".

Are you referring to this study (FINAL REPORT
GENETIC CHARACTERIZATION OF POPULATIONS OF THE
NONINDIGENOUS BURMESE PYTHON IN EVERGLADES NATIONAL
PARK
Prepared by:
Timothy M. Collins and Barbie Freeman
Department of Biological Sciences
Florida International University
University Park
Miami Florida, FL 33199
And
Skip Snow
U.S. National Park Service
Everglades National Park
400l SR 9336
Homestead, FL 33034
Prepared for the South Florida Water Management District)

which sampled fewer than 200 specimens and concluded the following:

"The lack of genetic differentiation of
most Burmese Pythons in ENP may indicate either a panmictic freely interbreeding
population in the Park, or alternatively, limited genetic variation in the captive bred
populations that are the likely source of these snakes."

MAY being the operative word.

I would not regard this as definitive. Pretty inconclusive actually.

When a person sees only one side of an issue and approach there posts from a one sided view .I know that I can not change your thinking.I will not try.Just remember you are next.
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Archie Bottoms

Look in the mirror when you say that.

HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!! LOL

There is not going to be absolute proof just like evolution you look at many factors and come to an educated conclusion. 200 is a pretty large number of tested animals considering there is a core area where the animals are found and the lack of genetic variation is consistent with very little new animals being added to the gene pool and from possibly from a large release at one time. There was a wholesaler that was completely destroyed in hurricane Andrew in the homestead area that had 900 baby berms in stock and were never found. Everyone agrees that from time to time people do release animals but often times released animals are not in great health that is why they are not sold and they are very likely to die in a wild environment. They may not have any “natural” (as in native to their country of origin) predators here but there are a bunch of native predators here for all size classes. The noticeable numbers were around 1995 when they sold in stores $100 or more so why would hundreds of people drive them all the way to the everglades to let them go if they could sell them for 100 bucks. This is a subject that been discussed for a 100 links in the berm forum and there are a lot more details there.
One point is you seem pick apart the papers looking for proof but it seems like you except the idea that people have been letting them with no proof what so ever just your gut feeling about people. No one has ever been caught or admitted to letting any go now that does not mean anything either but with the thousands that it might take to get them established may a few might get caught or come forward.
Rob

It makes no sense to me how you can totally dismiss this report as well as the personal conversations of knowledgeable lifelong stakeholder witnesses over some undocumented anonymous anecdotal rumor printed in some rag with an agenda?

That is why I put the apples and oranges analogy up. Makes no sense. Speaking a different language. You are beginning to sound like one of those pretentious idealist dreamers with a desire for something that will never be. Finding fault and castigating blame. Blame yourself...you drive a car, I'm sure and you buy produce from the grocery store to feed the family and I'll bet you've got kids. It's about people. Too many people. Too many people consuming too many natural resources and creating too much waste and pollution.
That "If only they'd this and only they'd that..." has a psychological term for that personality, but I can't think of it.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Of course the study is not 100% conclusive. Nothing is 100% conclusive. But when taken along with all the other circumstantial evidence and common sense, it's pretty obvious that "irresponsible pet owners" were not the cause of the Everglades burm population.

And of course your are STILL AVOIDING providing any evidence to back up your claims. You are like a Creationist or defense lawyer. All you can do is handpick individual pieces and nitpick at the theories of others, you provide nothing to back up your beliefs.

Interestingly enough, what little "evidence" the "experts" provide to show that:

1) pet owners are irresponsibly releasing pythons, and
2) the pythons are ecologically "wreaking havoc"

are fuly of "may"'s,"might be"'s, "could be"'s and hand-picked anecdotes from a small sample size. Actually, I don't think there really is any evidence at all to support number one, at least I haven't seen any.

Stop tap dancing, Steph. Back up your claims. Or continue to look like a trolling hypocrite. It's your choice.

There is one thing I know for sure.Turtles are not snakes and invoke the love and not the fear of most people.Turtle people in general do not even care we are loosing rights but let them face the lose of there turtles and they will join our cause that is a shame as we are all the same.What people do not seem to realize is this is more about OUR RIGHTS AS AMERICAN CITIZENS than about a few snake species.When or if the ban is complete more species will be added.This will continue until we have no hobby at all.If all importation of exotic species stopped we would still have a good strong hobby.Blood lines would be allot more important and prices would rise.Yet we would survive.It is this act of stopping inter state trade that will damage it all.If given the chance to ban the sale and keeping of all snakes came up ,these same people would do it that are doing the python ban now.Fear mongering is nothing new.The fear of snakes is not new.Even the limitation of our rights is not new.The problem is that so much has been limited that they are running out of rights to take and get away with it.So lets save our people from ourselves this has gone farther than I thought it could.
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Archie Bottoms

Archie, I'm a turtle person in Texas and I know for a fact what the authorities can do with the stroke of a pen. I write about it on here all the time. Not fair to the people that truly appreciate them and not fair to the turtles' future survival, either.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John I hope I did not offend you if I did I apologize.There are some turtle people that do care.You live here in Texas you do know for a fact the outcome of a few that overwhelemed the system here in Texas .Now we all have sufford.Even tho I never liked people catching thousands of box turtles for market.I never minded people who knew how to care for them catching them and keeping them.The money got in the way of proper care for a few of them and it hurt the whole reptile community in Texas.I am glad that some of the other reptile lovers do see this for what it is .It is a shake down ram job deep penatration dry with no kiss or even a reach around.Sorry maybe to graphic.I keep venomous reptiles and a caimen and a couple of toads in my collection.In a day or 2 I have to go pick up a desert box turtle that is only 2 inches long and it will be a keeper,no pythons.I see this as a stepping stone to many more bans.If this goes thru we are at there mercy and they know it .Every one needs to comment by tuesday and we all need to stand togather.This Steff person seems to have an agenda anti herp is all I can say.There is a group of box turtle elitests here in Texas that pushed for the ban here yet they want to continue haveing 35 box turtles in there back yard but do not want you to own anything its crazy we are all in the same boat ..
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Archie Bottoms

Not offended at all. There are always too many knuckleheads in anything. Just don't punish the responsible along with the irresponsible. The new "Hands Off" regs don't do anything positive. Prohibition doesn't work. Vilifying those that don't deserve it and sitting on your hands is no way to go. The professors can study the subject until they earn a nice fat retirement, the only thing they'll accomplish is produce more "Hands off" advocates with tunnel vision and an over inflated ego.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Ironically enough if this staph guy were to move here to florida, depending on how many box turtles he had he would quite likely be in violation of Fl. law. You are allowed 2 per person per household of any subspecies of T. carolina. Breeding is not outlawed but strongly discouraged and you need to get rid of the babies quickly however you cannot sell them.
The box turtle scenario here in Fl is a good example of the REAL environmental threat in this state. I have a male fl. box turtle that I have had for about 12 or 13 yrs now. I found it while working on a construction site in sanford fl. at sr46 and rhinehart rd. just off of I-4. In fact I found it where the race track gas station is now at the time it was a semi-wooded area and I was "watering some trees". As I said that piece of land is now a gas station and most of the surrounding forrest is gone. The rest will go when the building starts again. It may take 4 or 5 years which in the lifespan of a box turtle is nothing but even still this turtle would most likely be an urban fossil right now had I not grabbed it.
The python thing is a classic case of misdirection habitat destruction is the worst environmental problem in this state and construction companies rule here. I wouldn't be surprised if the roc legislation is intended to drive herpers out of the state because the developers know we are a potential problem for them being able to bulldoze down gopher tortoises box turtles indigos and everything else in their path.

This is a pretty well done paper. I think we have to be careful though to not be hypocritical when we defend our side of the argument. From what I could tell (based on a quick google search), this has not been published in a peer-reviewed journal. If I missed this, I'm sorry.

I would be interested to hear what some of the scientific community has to say about the methods and the markers chosen. I'm not an expert in genetics, but I find the use of mitochondrial DNA markers to be a little interesting when it's known that mitochondrial DNA is more highly conserved than nuclear DNA from generation to generation. This has the potential to influence the results in our favor.

Like I said, I think this generally supports our argument, but we should be careful to consider it gospel, lest we end up no better than the people who assume the Rodda paper is fact without questioning it.

>>Like I said, I think this generally supports our argument, but we should be careful to consider it gospel, lest we end up no better than the people who assume the Rodda paper is fact without questioning it.

I agree with you. Noting is gospel. But it is consistent with all the other circumstantial evidence.

Having said that, the overall attitude is what I object to. It's not up to me or you or anyone else to disprove a totally unsupported belief or claim that others put forth, much less base laws oppressive laws on. People like Steph should be criticizing those who are causing and making laws based on baseless speculation, not those who are trying to fight the baseless speculation. It's a$$ backwards.

Steph, FWC themselves in a statement they made public said and I quote"THE BURMESE INVASION IS LIKELY BECAUSE OF HURRICANE ANDREW RELEASING ABOUT 900 BABY BURMESE AT ONE TIME". Those are not the exact words but close. Right on either this forum or the Herp Law Forum a FWC official said that. WHY DO YOU INSIST THAT THEIR THE RESULT OF PET OWNERS DUMPING THEM WHEN EVEN FL. STATE OFFICIALS DON'T THINK SO?.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, nothing will change her mind. She likes to argue. We both now that a substantial amount of baby Burms were being held in captivity for sale by at least one wholesaler.

Biut since we don't have the receipts from that long ago, we can't prove it. There are more than one theory out there that can't be proved....like gravity, for instance.

The fact is that nobody knows for sure.

And while we can all speculate as to the origins, and may indeed arrive at the conclusion that the majority are probably the result of negligent dealers failing to properly secure (or better yet remove) their merchandise in the face of a Cat. 5 hurricane, the fact remains that, without a doubt, pet owners dump their animals on a regular basis and most importantly, the python (and exotic animal or plant) problem can be directly traced back to human actions, negligence or inaction.

Scrambling to look for "proof" as to who specifically the culprit merely obfuscates the ultimate fact of human responsibility, and is a childish time-wasting blame-game that serves no real purpose.

And blaming responsible exotic aficionados is OK?

And punishing them with no evidence they are responsible is OK?

And blanket prohibition is OK? That will solve the problem?

You ARE a mighty fine dancer. Now waltz on out of here.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Who is blaming anyone?

Hmm..."Serves them right" regarding us and big snakes sure sounds like blame, doesn't it?

"Please do not feed the animals".

"the fact remains that, without a doubt, pet owners dump their animals on a regular basis..."

Last chance, Steph. You've been directly asked at least half a dozen times to back up your claims, so far nothing but tap dancing. Actually, you haven't even tap danced regarding the claim that the pythons are some type of horrible ecological threat, you are simply avoiding it completely.

Why are you unable to come up with supporting evidence for something that is occurring "without a doubt" and is a "fact?"

Either provide evidence for the following or admit you are a troll who is intentionally wasting forum members' time. :

1) "..without a doubt, pet owners dump their" pythons "on a regular basis"

2) Feral pythons in the Everglades present some sort of horrible ecological "problem."

Steph,
This whole topic started because you stated you feel pet owners were the ones responsible here is your post:
____________________________________________________
--The flip side here is that we need to be more responsible as citizens.

It seems to me that the non-native animal problem can be traced to irresponsible owners, who, in turn may be able to lay *some* of the responsibility for their ignorance at the feet of unscrupulous or ignorant vendors.

Rational egoism (‘I’) is problematic. The paradox wherein acting in your best interest isn’t always in your best interest.

An apropos example:

Dumping a python in the Everglades when it outgrows it's cage or becomes too expensive to feed may not be a big deal, but when enough misinformed irresponsible snake owners dump multiple pythons, voila: native ecosystem becomes taxed. Ecological failure in the making.

Ecological failures could be exemplified by polluters acting in their own interest create aggregate environmental conditions with other polluters which in turn creates collective consequences to shared resources.

So, the fact remains that unless citizens decide to do a better job of governing themselves, we'll have Government trying to do it for us.--
_______________________________________________________

There is at least some evidence for our claim yours it based completely on your personal feeling or that of others who have said it. IF YOU SAY SOMETHING ENOUGH IT BECOMES THE TRUTH!!
That is what most of us thought when you first said it that you were just passing on info you thought was the truth because you heard it so many times. Now you are defending your possition and saying "well no one knows for sure!!" We will never know with absloute certainty about any of it so you go where there is at least some evidence.
The next thing people say when facing the evidence is well it was still neglagence by a dealer that caused it. I guess you have never been in a hurricane (You will probobly say Yes I have) but in the 1992 it was not certain where it was comming ashore oe how strong it would be. If this hrricane had been 25 miles north or south it everything would have been fine and you only knew exactly where it was going to hit and its strenth about 4 hours prior and even then there are alot of factors as to how much distruction is done alot of it is building codes which now have been improved. If you had 8 hours to get everything in your life secured ane had 50,000 animals would you have thought in 1992 I better get the berms secured better than everything else because if they get out they might survive in the everglades? No you you do the best to secure your building and hope it survives. An additional consern is where to go to be safe north south? Its a lesson we all learned about at Daytona a few years ago when we all left our safe houses and went to the reptile convention and it got hit that night by a hurricane.
As far as florida regulating the problem florida did by starting the ROC which includes an evacuation plan for your animals but this is not a ban like the AR's want so they move on as if there was nothing done.
___________________________________________________--
--the fact remains that, without a doubt, pet owners dump their animals on a regular basis and most importantly, the python (and exotic animal or plant) problem can be directly traced back to human actions, negligence or inaction.--
_________________________________________________
This is a rediculas statement. how can you even feel you have any point if you are going to throw out such a general statement almost any problem on earth can be directly traced back to human actions, negligence or inaction.
And the dumping issue, if you renove dogs and cat from the equasion dumping is not that common.
this is enough for now I am sure you will have a big defence of your point.
Rob

Snake owners and reptile owners are not cat and dog dumping type people.Dogs and cats are dumped all the time not snakes.Most educate them selves quite well.There may be a small few who are idiots but most are good keepers.I do not know any one who would dump a python.There was a mistake on the part of the wholesaler who did not secure the baby pythons during the storm.If we are going to ban an animal because of dumping dogs and cats should go first. Feral Cats are the number 1 predator on wild doves and other migrating birds in the united states of america.Cats are wild every where and successful in there ability to stay wild.I personally think that Steff loves to fight and that is how it is any more answering to her posts is only an attack on our selves .I will only answer educated people who are interested in the truth and not in spreading the lies already exposed .
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Archie Bottoms

I'm still not sure how anyone can secure a group of neonate Burms from a Cat 5 hurricane that had winds strong enough to peel the asphalt off the road.....which it did.