Reptile & Amphibian Forums

so I'm one year into my experiment and I have the following to report on providing animals with choices and communal caging.

When it comes to growth and weight gain I give this method a grade of 100%. Given a wider selection of temps to operate in, the animals made better use of the energy I gave them and were able to take more food, more often, and over an extended season.

When it comes to breeding I give the method a resound F. There is a lot that can go wrong any given year. This is the first season so there is time to bring the grade up but that EVERY snake I did this with threw slugs is just weird. I'm tempted to think that the biggest issue this season is that the change just threw my animals off their cycles but I just don't know. I honestly did not expect a bad result let alone one this bad.

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I did something very similar this season - starting with housing pairs together and allowing them to 'cool if they wanted to'

I will be reporting in much detail when I get more eggs on the ground. I have a bunch of gravid snakes but I want to wait to see if I get good eggs.

byron.d

Hope you have better luck. I think my mistake was turning it into a game to see how long I could get them to feed which inturn to shortened their hibernation period.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Cool info and observations. I wonder if it was the stress of the communal living that may have affected their fertility. Still, since they obviously ate and grew well, the stress factor seems less likely. I would think stress would have let to poor feeding as well. Maybe the stress aggitated that aspect of their biology more than growth?

SO sorry about the flop Tony.....it sounds 50/50 to me (glass half-full approach) and I like your open-mindedness about it all. And you may very well be correct in that your charges were really thrown off. Why not take half of them and bring them back to the original recipe (control group) and the other half continue with modifications? Just my thinking out loud....
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Well I didn't really think the change was that dramatic. In talking through this I do think the biggest mistake was to adjust feed to keep them eating as long as I could. It became a game to me and I think that this too severely impacted their hibernation period. There are those who say that you can get by quite fine without hibernating your animals but in my experience it kind of resets the biologic clock on the collection. Its just easier! Had I stopped feeding when the collection no longer wanted weanling I think I would have had a better result.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Wow great job. Too bad on the slugs, but it is just the beginning. Now you have established a community which for me would be very difficult, now you keep it going and get to work out all the bugs as you go.

This brings up so many questions.

Size of cage or area?

What type of nest was available?

How often did they feed? Copulate?

I hope that you continue this project..It sounds like it coudl be a very rewarding one. Keep us up to date.

Thanks
Scott
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Scott
"The most powerful person never has to use it"

I'm sorry to hear fo your problems this season. Were/are your females much heavier than in previous years?
I know lots of people get their females as well fed and fat as they can but I have always had better luck with leaner females...mammals too.
Anyway, was just wondering if the choices they made helped them to use up their fuel in a more economical way or if they gained weight over previous years?
Keep us posted.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

"I know lots of people get their females as well fed and fat as they can but I have always had better luck with leaner females"

Me too. The idea to change things up was not so much to get them fat but to extend and better utilize their feeding season enough so that they would recover from the summer's breeding effort. Generally a second clutch could be handled, as long as they didn't go off feed too early, but a third clutch, though rare, always proved devistating to the female. In many cases they never recovered fully.

To me the big question is how do you or would you STOP the female from ovulating and laying a second or third clutch. That however is an avenue of inquiry that few "breeder" even care to follow. More is always better right? Maybe so but IMHO more is not better when you're tease feeding neonates for 6 weeks!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, that last point is a great one! I lost an amazing Monster island milk because the thing just wouldnt stop throwing eggs! She triple clutched and went off feed and passed. Whats to gain particularly with hard to feed NA milks from such efforts? Finding the middle ground is important. Infertile eggs are such a waste of time. By the way those Blaze only dropped me 3 fertile eggs surrounded by a pile of slop too. Tis the season!

I used to do the whole seperate container thing. The results were quite drastic as i knew my groups and previous years prodcution. I got higher fertility and even some unexpected triple clutches.

One thing i noticed that is weird with the Floridana group of kingsnakes. My larger older females (4-5 years) throw more infertile eggs than younger females. My smaller younger females (2-3 yrs) always seem to throw 99% fertile eggs and larger eggs. The larger females throw lots of small eggs and some are always not fertilized. I would guess 75% fertile egg masses.

I don't know if this means anything significant as larger females just need better sperm to get to all the eggs in time. So it could be that i match up young males to older females. usually breeding son back to mother.

So i guess my question is to Tony is, are you using the smae females you have for a number of years? Are you doing any back breeding from smaller males to older females??
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www.Bluerosy.com

Blue all the failures result from the exact pairings that have breed succesfully for several years. On top of that I have hibernated pairs together for years and have long suspected that they bred while down becasue I rarely ever observe copulation.

I still think its the change in their schedule that induced the failure. Time on the same schedule may yeild better results.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

The first most obvious reason is the range or area of temps was not great enough. Like too large an area of heat. This will not allow a large enough cooler area.

Consider, snakes WORK from cool to heat, so cool is very important.

We all know that exposure to too much heat will indeed render males infertile. It will also allow for the sperm to die in the female while its being stored before fertilization.

Also a common cause it adding or upping the heat in the spring(bringing them up tooooo sooon).

ALso, when they are infertile early, they can indeed be fertile for the second or third clutches.

Early in the development of allowing them choices. I commonly experienced first clutch infertility. Then later clutches were perfect. The reason was, early on I did not use a cooler or air conditioner, later in the year I did.

Again the cause was tooooooo much heat.

Also like any method, you must learn what is important, not what you think is important.

I am glad you have patience, as many here think they can try something new once and it should work. That is not very likely is it. Like with anything, you need to work the bugs out. Cheers.

FR, in your "choice theory", you are ASSUMING that individuals make choices to procreate! Sex is a choice, procreation is an instinct, a VERY big difference. If you give snakes choices they DONT have in nature(such as temps over 60 in winter)you cause or remove stress that could be the trigger for sexual reproduction. Just because they like jelly donuts doesnt mean you should feed em jelly donuts!! Individuals will whole heartedly make individual decisions that affect long term changes in the cause and effect relationships that have made them into the animals they are today. You either change the animals or you change their environment and let that environment change the animal! Either way--same result. Captive, domesticated strains of wild animals. You CHOOSE to like to observe choices animals make, but these choices are no more productive than age old breeding methods. I assure you that in nature the first clutches arent infertile, it has to be their first/BEST attempt. The fact that you can manipulate them eventually to be fertile.....I can do that in a box without any observational effort.
So, with bit in teeth, besides your own personal preference to spend time WATCHING snakes and to be different, what good does it do to give our captives choices as snake breeders??

much of the USA get temps over 60 in the winter at some point for some amount of time and wild snakes do lay infertile eggs.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I think you missed my points. Broken clocks are right twice a day.

>>I think you missed my points. Broken clocks are right twice a day.

Oh no I got your point, it was in the subject line of your post. I just thought your post was funny.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

First off, its not a theory. And your so confused its silly.

What do you mean they do not have the ability to reach 60F in the winter, All but a very few do have that choice and much more.

This is what is funny, some folks who live up north and they think all snakes are like yours. Yours are the exception, 99% of snakes and snake species are EQUATORIAL.

To achieve surface temps in the 60's all you need is a sunny day with air temps around 30F. You really should get out more and actually look at whats around you. Buy a temp gun you cheap bandaid and use it.

I do remember your previous posts, your said, I don't give snakes choices, because they don't make them. Well sir, that statement is true, only because you make all the choices and Force all the conditions on them.

There is another truth(no f-in theory) if your do not give them conditions they understand, they cannot make choices, just like you. If you were zapped up by aliens and kept in a box without anything you recognize, what kind of decisions would you make? Cheers

As usual, FR got to the personal but not the question. My point was that you ASSUME snakes want to reproduce given choices. Now Tony's snakes are CHOOSING for growth at the expense of reproducing thats pretty clear. Individual success is based on size, species success is based on reproduction, CORRECT?? If you were a breeder why would you give the snake the choice to reproduce or not?? Makes NO SENSE.
Now I know you think Texas is equatorial and you are the center of the herp universe but let me assure you, you're not. People on the forum are from every state(except maybe Hawaii)so things work differently in different places for different species and different individuals. Observing individual variation in specimens and environment may make you an expert on those individuals. Not much more.

I am from Hawaii. At least, i used to live there.

Also. i think what FR meant by EQUATORIAL, is most snakes live near the earth's equator.
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www.Bluerosy.com

np, LMAO

Something is completely wrong with you, that is personal. I offered tips from experience. I seem to be the one promoting a "different" method, so if others are willing to test that, I should be willing to voice my experience with allowing the animals choices.

Also, your coming from a control issue standpoint. Or so it seems. If you allow snakes the choices they need, their goal is to recruit, Period, same in nature, same in captivity. Also if you place roadblocks in front of them and that hinder their abilities, they will fail.

In captivity, we wall them into a set of conditions, those are not the conditions they are evolved to fit into. Then recipe keepers tell them what to do, this temp, this food, this winter, this spring, this fall, etc. Only problem is, we/you are telling them WHAT THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY NEED. What you receive is marginal and average results.

In nature, roadblocks that hinder their success are there, only the animals have abilities to make the most of what nature provides. In good years, plenty of food and water, they EXCEL they can reach their genetic potential in growth and reproduction. In medium years, they produce average or spotty growth and reproduction. In poor years, populations decline.

Back to captivity. Telling them what to do is ALL ABOUT YOU. Allowing them to make their own choices tells you what they are and what they can do(by natural design)

In short and how it effects this forum. In captivity, you cannot make them grow to fast or breed to much. That is limited by genetics, you can only explore their genetic potential. But you can make them grow less and recruit less. You can also interfere with their ability to withstand disease and the impact of reproduction(to suppress their natural abilities)

We all know that in nature, they are tough as nails and can withstand massive injuries, they also naturally carry huge parasite loads without problem. Yet in captivity they are fragile and weak and succumb to any parasite load.

In short, because you are afraid to admit you do not understand these wonderful reptiles and you have to treat them in a very controlled way. You do not want others to gain any insight into these animals. These animals can and do thrive in very extreme conditions, they do so because they know what conditions to seek out and utilize in nature. And your comfortable taking that away from them.

The truth is, I am happy for you. But sir, there are others who really care about the animals and understand there is more to them then a shoebox, newspaper, waterbowl and a mouse once a week. Oh and not allowed to be a reptile(the use of many body temps)

Oh and sir, about personal, yes, I am talking to YOU the person, and your talking to me the PERSON. and we are talking about our different aspects of captive husbandry. So yes, its very personal, I have hoping your not the BORG. or this is not a borg ship. It is futile to resist, you will be absorbed. You will be one with the forum. Nope, this place is full of persons and it is personal. I am not the Borg.(star trek, look it up)

OK, enough about Borg. Frank what you are saying might very well be true IN NATURE. But a "natural cage" is way more cage than nature and you cannot reproduce nature. What we have proved is that 1 plus 1 equals 2. Now I'm sure that you can get 2 another way....but it wont be as neat and clean. Manipulating 1 little thing will affect other things, and you cant change that. For those on here trying to keep pretty cages and watch individual animals "your way" may be appropriate. And if the stars align and you have a good year you might get For those that like the cycle of life, that enjoy the change of seasons, that may even attempt to sell offspring to offset the increasing cost of the hobby....use or modify existing examples without reinventing the wheel.

To borrow a line from Frank AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA. You say his methods are Reinventing the wheel, Frank invented the wheel...in this sense anyway.

Sure "your" methods work. That's not the point. There is more to these animals than the recipe book.

To doubt that the "choices" method is not a viable way to breed reptiles is hilarious, especially since the one touting the method is responsible for more world first breeders than probably anyone else on here. Wouldn't that make you think twice about doubting how he got those breedings? Oh no I get it, He goes on about this choices things so we will try to use it when in fact it's a ploy. He knows the method sucks but doesn't want us to succeed.

Nate, FR doesnt need you or anyone else HA HAing for him, I'll make sure he gets enough. I hear all the time about him doing this or that for the first time. Just because he was smarter than those that came before him doesnt mean he's automatically smarter than those that came after. I mean I do respect my elders but I didnt get into reptiles because anyone named Frank and my successes have occured without reading anything he has written and I've never heard him speak.
I know, WOOOW, big deal. But there is room enough for new discoveries all the time on both sides. Its not a CONTEST. In many ways I speak for many who wish FR were more forthcoming and personal so we could gleen more info from him. I dont think FR understands that knowledge is only valuable if its shared. Maybe he shares with the few of you that defend him. FR is like an essay test that you never get a grade from..... so you have no idea if the knowledge is valuable or not. Scientists dont take things on "faith" well, LMAO.
I'm an idealist. I say share all info, treat people equally with respect and have intelligent arguements. My responses were as if you all were my best friend, and where I'm from(Boston) the better friends you are the more MAMA jokes you get! Not perfect but open and honest, thats me.

"Now Tony's snakes are CHOOSING for growth at the expense of reproducing thats pretty clear."

I wouldn't say that. If they chose growth over reproduction there would have been no eggs. I got infertile eggs which still took energy to produce and lay, energy that could have gone to growth.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

OK, so technically only the male CHOSE for growth over reproduction? Sounds about right for the rest of us! LOL

did you scope the males to see if they had good swimmers?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

No I did not, but i assume that the issue is with the males either not having good swimmers or being out of synch with the females. It could also be that being couped up in the same cage with a lone female for months has driven the males insane!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

It could also be that being couped up in the same cage with a lone female for months has driven the males insane!

Try 2 or 3 females. That way they drive each other crazy and leave the male alone.
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www.Bluerosy.com

- infertility problems not always the males fault.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

"The first most obvious reason is the range or area of temps was not great enough. Like too large an area of heat. This will not allow a large enough cooler area.

Also a common cause it adding or upping the heat in the spring(bringing them up tooooo sooon)."

Without going completely into the setup I don't think any of this was the case. The prime way I was able to increase the gradient was to reduce the area of heat. In doing this I was able to create a nice, though small, "hot" spot without overheating the rest of the cage. Also, temp wise it has been a below average spring. My room has heating and cooling but is controlled off the house thermostat and is more susceptible to outside conditions. In the summer I actually have to run an exhaust fan (bathroom ceiling type) to draw out hot air and draw in more cool from the main system to keep the room cool enough.

"Also, when they are infertile early, they can indeed be fertile for the second or third clutches."

Agreed. I will say however that they lost much if not all the weight gain from last year during this first lay. I have an idea of why this "appears" to be the case but don't have the time to articulate it here.

"Early in the development of allowing them choices. I commonly experienced first clutch infertility. Then later clutches were perfect. The reason was, early on I did not use a cooler or air conditioner, later in the year I did.

Again the cause was tooooooo much heat."

Interesting but again, I don't think this was the case in my collection.

"Also like any method, you must learn what is important, not what you think is important."

At 50 years of age, finding a different path to the same or better results does require a certain amount of un-learning. My old system worked great though had a flaw that sometimes adversely effected a few of my females. I think that problem has been solved and that given time they'll cycle in to this new regime. I intend a minor change however. Last year I allowed the animals to go along feeding for as long as I could by offering them more and more choice foods (weanlings to crawlers, to fuzzies to.....) as they became reluctant to feed. This year I'm going to allow them to go down as soon as they stop feeding on weanling.

"I am glad you have patience, as many here think they can try something new once and it should work. That is not very likely is it. Like with anything, you need to work the bugs out. Cheers."

Thanks.

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

While some on here rail on letting snakes make their own choices. If snakes were really smart, had full time jobs and saved money dont you think they would go to Disney World?? Well, assuredly, birth control is a choice. The truth is they arent smart enough to migrate, but they are resourceful enough to survive. FORCED brumation is certainly a stress on animals, and I'm sure many dont survive each season because of it. Providing less stress alters their habitat more than anything else and your experiment only emphasizes this. Now I am sure that given the same circumstances some snakes could eventually express fertility, but the issue comes full circle. WHY?? Why do YOU keep snakes? If you want to keep them as pets keep them warm and feed them heavy year round. If you want to breed them keep them within the same temp ranges they occur in nature.
I couldnt let it go without a bad joke though Tony! Maybe their choice is be like their owner....slowing down, get fat and happy practicing safe sex?! But maybe its MONOGAMY that is bringing on added stresses!! LMAO!!

Good stuff there jeff!
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www.Bluerosy.com