Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In reading back over old posts I realise there are two sides to acceptance of hybreds. My question is, are there many wild caught hybreds recorded?

Yes there are.
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www.Bluerosy.com

They would probably be more itergrades than hybrids.

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

No I meant HYBRIDS. They happen all the time. When one usually happens in nature it aborbs back into one or the other.

This topic has been discussed here to death. The anti hybrids folks will say, well how do you know it is a natural hybrid or a release. It is a topic that just round and round because of some folks who think this does not happen and think their snakes are "pure".

here is a pic of a gopher x Calif Kingsnake. It was found by Brian Hubbs on a ranch in central calif. The ranch was private owned, remote and large. So no way someone released it there.

As i said in the thread below. We have to many divisions in herpetoculture. I like all snakes. I used to be a Rosy Bopa nut and kept all the localities back before anyone knew what localities there where. I like morphs, hybrids, natural and unatural intergrades. I like ratsnakes, sandsnakes, hognose, lomgnose,patchnose, kingsnakes, milksnakes, rubber boas, large boids, small boids, pythons etc etc.

They all have something to offer and are neat. It all becomes unatural when you put it in a box and selectivly breed. And since snakes hybridize in the wild, what does that tell you? FR has chimed in recently with several hybrids he observed in nature on remote land as well.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I had never heard of a natural hybrid. Yet I am not too surprised.

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

There are even some known alterna hybrids that have been found in the wild..... Alterna x anulatta and alterna x cealanops.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

and now alterna x thayeri
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>and now alterna x thayeri

Yep......I think I have that picture saved that you posted some time back.......

And the web looks like a ruthveni x pyro to me......
I know a person who bred a ruthveni to a Mex Mex and produced a thayeri like offspring........ Just a tiny example of the south to north genetic drift in lampropeltis.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I meant webbi not web...this dang iPad changed it for me....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

It was just found late last year.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Send it to me then so I can have it......lol
I have a pic of one I thought was from you....maybe it's another one......I will email it to you in a bit.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

the cerro de la silla snake from 1990. yeah that is (IMO) a definite intermediate between mexicana and alterna.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Yeah that one Joe...... I think......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Doesn't that make abberant thayeri lol

I've seen some of those posted.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

>>Doesn't that make abberant thayeri lol

I don't think there's any question that there was some alterna in those thayeri that were posted.

More strange though, was the length of the tail on some of those animals!! Did you happen to notice that? Bob H. has one of those posted in his thayeri gallery if you want to see what I'm talking about.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Thank you. The reason I asked was that back in the early 70s I had a wild caught baby snake that I puzzled over for a long time. We finaly figured out that it was like the one you posted - a cross between a cal. king and a gopher snake.I have a slide of it and it looks the same. It was caught in Ventura, Ca. Anywhere near the one pictured was caught? It ended up at the San Diego Zoo via Western Zoological. theOLDherper

I actually saw that animal at the zoo. Also Barney T is a friend of mine and I still see him from time to time.

Also, another friend of mine told me of an undiscribed snake in that area that was between a king and a gopher. He tried to have it discribed, I do not know whatever became of it.

As mentioned, hybrids in nature are not common, but do occur on a very regular basis. There are many many many hybrid combinations that have been found. Then consider, we herpers only sample a very very very small percentage of snake populations.

Then consider, how many folks would know a hybrid from a normal, when the vast majority of people cannot even id any snake. Most herpers discount hybrids as just ODD really weird normals. When now we know that captive hybrids are also just odd really weird normals. There is no tag or sign on them that tells you they are hybrids, They just tend to look different then the rest of the population. And buddy, we see that all the time.

Also consider, that 90% or more, of all snake offspring, perish within a year. The survivors, must FIT in the ecosystem. By definition a hybrid has not proven to fit and in all but very rare cases be amoung the 90% of the failures. So its not that it is rare to occur, what is rare is that WE SEE it occur. We actually don't see to much of what occurs with reptiles.

Consider, millions upon millions of snakes are breeding and gravid RIGHT NOW IN NATURE. Yet that is rarely seen. I have observed and filmed several this year. How many here have seen copulation this year in nature? how many have seen it in captivity? How many snakes are in captivity compared to how many are all around us in nature?

You see, most of what we see in nature is under AC or on the road. Sad but true. Cheers

Glad to hear that someone remembers that snake. It sure had me puzzled for while. Next time you talk to Barney say hello for me. He may remember me from 35 years ago. On one of my trips to Mexico he tried to get me to collect tarantulas - snakes OK - spiders no way| [please excuse the long paragraph, I haven't figured out where the carraige return is on this thing]. Do you live in the so. Cal area? theOLDherper

Good post Frank.

People have to realize nature is always trying something new, shuffling the deck if you will. Most times it fails but sometimes an advantage is found and exployed.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Amen brother, I couldn't have said it any better.

I want to hear you explain this, expand on that please.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Well as I said it was caught near Ventura in a euceliptus tree windbreak at the border of an orange grove. As I remember it was about 10 to 12" long. I had no idea what it was. I kind of ignored it for quite a while except to feed it quite a bit. After it grew a bit I started examining the sheds and counting scales [keeled].The count was right between king and gopher. I sent sheds to couple of friends and they agreed. I took it to San Diego Zoo and the curator, Jim Bacon just glanced in the bag and said it was an abherant cal king. On the way home I stoped at Western Zoological. They agreed with me and said they would put it on their price list at $200 and split it with me.I After Jim Bacon saw it on the list he thought that it might deserve a closer look. They took a blood sample and it too fell right between king and gopher. So they ended up purchasing it. Funny part was that I was going to ask Jim $75 for it [extra 25 for me].Years later I asked Jim about what had happened. He told me that they had bred it to a king or a gopher, I can't remember which, but had lost eggs. They were going to try again the following year but the hybrid died. I presume that is in the pickle collection at the zoo. I will try to find out if anyone feels it's important. After moving to the S.D. area in '84 I was going to renew my aquaintance with Jim at the zoo but he passed away before I had the chance. Hope this info is what you want. theOLDherper

..in Monrovia/

Man I used to hang out there back in the 70's. I rememeber all the cool stuff they would bring in from mexico. back then the Mtn King was my favorite snake. Imagine what it was like to lay my eyes (and hands) on the first Sinaloans they brought in. I remember them coming back from a trip and I helped them open the cloth bags to put the snakes away. It was unbelevable, all the new stuff they caught.

Most of it is just a blur now. But back then i wanted one of each. I could not get enough of that place. Way cooler than hermosa reptile. It was also light years ahead of trhe east coast market back then. All these NEW snakes came right up from South America and mexico stright to to calif and people there purchased them.

On the gopher x king i can find out from Hubbs if it was near ventura. But i have heard of others like it being found.

Florida seems to have a lot of wild hybridization going on.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Some of those sinaloans were probobly ones that I brought back as I had Mexican permits from '71 to '75. As you said, lots- of neat stuff. I lived in Ojai, Ventura Co. at that time. We might have met. theOLDherper

Oh my gosh! I wish i could connect the dots and remember some names. There was one man in particular. I think he had a white van. I was about 13-16 at the time but looked younger. My parents used to bring me. Not sure this will help but but parents were from Austria so they had german accents.

I had kept some of the old price lists for many years. But thoses are lost now as well.
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www.Bluerosy.com

The only wild snake hybrids I know of from Florida are banded water snakes X salt marsh snakes, which occur along the coast from South Florida to Texas.

There have long been rumors of wild red X yellow rat snakes, but I've never seen these claims substantiated. All the pictures and specimens I've seen of supposed wild red/yellow hybrids have been pure corns or yellows.

I have seen Corn snakes with faint stripes like a yellow but who knows?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

A lot of corns have faint black striping just like yellow rats. It's usually considered an "ugly" trait.

That's what I have always thought but? Maybe it was reabsorbed back into the parent? I don't know anymore. I will say this many years ago I did try to mate a Yellow and a Corn and they wanted nothing to do with each other. So what's the chances that they will fall in love in the wild?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Try this, breed a pure corn to a pure Yellow rat. Then breed the babies back to the pure adults. Look at those offspring and see if you can find wild animals that look like them.

You see, After back breeding, all you get is a little odd, now something that looks exactly halfway between the two.

Even with captive crosses, like a corn to a yellow rat. You only get a few in the clutch that look halfway, most look more like one adult or the other.

There is a point here, most herpers are or were VERY naive as to what a hybrid looks like. So they do not know what to look for. Nothing against them, but they have no experience or education to actually know what a hybrid is.

Now a days, we all know that different species can breed and produce viable offspring, in the past, that was not the case. In the past it was thought that ALL hybrids were mules. Unfortunately, that is only true with horses and donkys. As it appears many many hybrids are fertile, and that includes other animals like birds and mammals. Cheers

I know I acted a bit like a turd to you and Rosy at times and I am sorry. But the way you just made your point and certainly all your experience and good insight in a real decent way with respect just makes me want to pull up a front seat and listen!

Thanks. I appreciate it more than you know.

Bob.

Hey Bob!!!!!
That's a good word!!!! I've known Frank since '63 in Orange County!!! The most knowledgeable/irritating herper I have ever known!!!! But you can't let him get to you. He is a legend. Now he is seen as mostly a Field Herper. We need to remember that he also has more first breedings than most anyone around, especially in Colubrids, Womas, Blackheaded Pythons and Monitor Lizards. But I'll tell you a secret--back in the day (and that day was long ago!!!! He is after all, older than dirt!!!!!LOL!!!) he kept stuff in what ever he could find/make. And I believe he could get two rubber snakes to breed if he wanted too.
If that makes me some kind of hero worshipper so be it!!!! I don't give a fig what people think--if I did I would not be a Minister of the Gospel!!!!

Shalom,

Pat

OOps!!! Didn't finish a thought as I had to get my Grandaughter down for a knap. When I said FR kept stuff in what ever he had, I mean he kept stuff in whatever had a lid. He had live stuff in Jars, in aquriums, in the roughest looking wooden boxes you can imagine. One time he had a gravid Banded Gecko in with a juvie Western Diamondback in a small wooden box with a glass front. She laid eggs, he thought he could get them out as the snake looked real relaxed, he got the eggs and a gift from the Rattlesnake. The eggs hatched sometime after he was released from the hospital. There are a million stories to tell.

Shalom,

Pat

Hi Pat nice to here from you. What part of Texas are you in. I ask because I may be around that neck of the woods and would love to visit you sometime.

And cool it with the stories, I have some of my own. How about that big mitchells that almost landed in your lap. Or the bet that ended up with a giant Rosy Boa. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Thats a good one.

Anyway, I did keep snakes in all manner of cages, kinda how a person learns. Cheers

Yo Frank,

Moving to San Antonio this Sat. I'd really enjoy seeing you after all these years!!!! And I'll quit with the stories!!!! Although the trips out with you were probably the highlight of my herping in those years. I even remember my short stint into falconry that ended in the passenger seat of your VW as a freshly caught Kestrel(Sparrow Hawk) was skewering my thumb after we got the jesses on it. You just sat there laughing as you told me not to show the bird that its bite was having an affect on me, even as I wanted to smash the demon bird against the window!!!! It finally let go, you stopped laughing and I never have handled a falcon or hawk since!!! Yup, those were the days!!!

Shalom,

Pat

LOL.....great story....that was a good belly laugh right there.....
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

What is there about falconry and herps that go together? It seems like I have known a lot of snake guys that had interests in both, me included. [kestral, red shouldered, and a great horned owl] theOLDherper

>>Yo Frank,
>>
>>Moving to San Antonio this Sat.

San Antonio? hahaha Great Pat, we'll definitely go wrangle Frank form Del Rio - No Hawks or Owls in the Truck, ok?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Amen Pastor Pat! I very much believe in the Gospel myself. Partly why I have taken an uncomfortable stand on folks at least being respectful of one another here, We are never going to all agree on anything but we can try for civil/respectful LOL Yes, I have made the mistake of getting my feelings hurt. I kind of like him in a weird dented way and he keeps it interesting here. I've gotten to believe he means well in an oscar the grouch sesame street kind of way.

Shalom Brother and thanks for the Kind words.VERY much appreciated

I might get nuked for this but I had to try.

Bob,
It is to bad you took my post the wrong way. i made a reply to it explaining but it was removed. Did you get a chance to catch it?
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www.Bluerosy.com

You do make a good point. Not all the babies will look like a mix of the two. Some will look like either of the parents with slight differences.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I don't know why it posts this picture whenever I post from my cell phone, I guess it's a default? Having seen the evidences presented here I have to stand on my original statement that it is "MORE" interegrades than Hybrids, he he I think these natural hybrids are very rare for the most part. But I the fact that they do mix is proof that these animals are more closely related than Science would have us believe, and I don't mean by millions of years ago, but more recent than that. Still thanks for the info guys I had not heard much about these naturally found hybrids before now.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>>Having seen the evidences presented here I have to stand on my original statement that it is "MORE" interegrades than Hybrids

So your opinion is that Gophersnakes and Kingsnakes should not only be in the same Genus, but also the same species too?

That was one example of an obvious hybrid, the reason people think hybrids are exceedingly rare is that they can't see it even when they hold it in their hand. What happens when an F1 hybrid back-crosses to either species for a couple generations? Are those snakes no longer Hybrids? It's natural, and more common than most realize, and DNA is proving that to be the case.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

According to the definition of "Species" I posted above, they would be considered the same species.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I think it's safe to say they aren't the same species.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

It depends on what definition of Species is used. Definitions change when reality doesn't conform to our rules.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Allow me to point out the obvious. Using that definition, there would be NO hybrids. So is it your position that hybrids don't exist? You solution is to place anything that produces viable offspring into the same species?

I think it's safe to say that is wrong.

>>It depends on what definition of Species is used. Definitions change when reality doesn't conform to our rules.
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> J Sierra
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I'm just pointing out that this is what the definition of Species was at least. Some one in another form said they changed the definition of "species" to fit better. I don't doubt that. I am merely stating that we as humans like to define everything and put things in neat little boxes but many times we can't.

History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man ~ Blue Oysetr Cult
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I just remember hearing about a particular frog. I believe it was Leopard frogs but not 100% sure. This frog lets call it a Leopard frog, exists from the west coast to the east coast of the US. Every variation will breed with it's neighboring variant but the extreme West and East animals will not breed with each other. Here you have animals which are the smae species yet won't breed with each other. Yet we find animals which seemingly are completely different species like Gopher and King and they do breed with each other. Animals don't follow our rules. Gophers and Kings look very different but Gophers and Corns don't look extremely different and Corns and Kings look more like they are closer to each other. If you are correct and Hybrids are very common than who is to say what is what?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

You said

>>>Having seen the evidences presented here I have to stand on my original statement that it is "MORE" interegrades than Hybrids

I was you to defend that statement, and you pulled out the antiquated definition of a species.

Now you are more in line with my way of thinking.

I was just curious what YOU thought.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I never said "very common"

I said more common than most believe.

I also said most wouldn't recognize them (a hybrid) if they held it in their hand.

I believe you said, you had never seen one so they can't be that common.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
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Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I gues I am really influenced by the fact that I teird many times in years past to make hybrids and had very little success. Most of what I produced were intergrade type animals. I tried Cal Kings with Florida and Corn snakes to Yellow rats and they seemed to want nothing with each other. So I have to wonder what will make them attracted to them selves in the wild. I realize Cal Kings and Floridas are too far apart but you get the point. I read where most Hybrids are produced by some type of manipulation like getting two snakes in heat with their own kind and then switching them at the peak of heat or placing tape over the vent of the one that is being used as the stimulant. It just seems that the chances of this happening in nature has to be slim.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Having seen the evidences presented here I have to stand on my original statement that it is "MORE" interegrades than Hybrids

Jorge,
You can't be serious about using this thread for determining the amount of hybrids or anything else. I used to have a list of natural hybrids and since lost that list when my computer crashed. Also the evidence here by a few people is hardly exaustive information. There was a lot more information in the past years posted here on this subject.I suggest you do a search here.

Now there is a difference between the amount of intergrades and sheer volume of intergrades out there. if you want to call them that.. Lets say for example the intergrade zone for eastrn kings. They intergrade with florida kings to the south and other kings to the north. So the sheer volume of the "zone' is huge. The Florida kings x eastern zone goes 300 miles into Florida from the GA border. Not to mention an intergrade is really a debatable subject in itself. Is an intergrade pure?

Rosy boas are almost all intergrades of one mountain range to rock plie to another where isolated pops have a certain look and some of those drift inbetween to breed with other different looking localities. i look at Kingsnakes the same way. They are all intergrades. It is the isoloated pops that develope a certain look and thus we claim this is the example of what they should look like from that location. Then when we find another darker , lighter, striped, banded, mottled version we claim it must be an intergrade.

Anyway there is lots of info from past discussions if you use the serach function. FR has a lot of info but also did not chime in because this has been discussed so much. Also if TonyD is reading this I hope you have that list of the breakdown of natural hybrds, unnatural intergrades etc. That is always a good place to start for folks just looking into this.

here is a thread i just found from 2009 after using the search function. But there are tons more threads on this subject with lots of good info:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1713330,1713330&key=2009
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www.Bluerosy.com

Websters online Dictionary-

Species represent the lowest and most important of the primary groupings used in classifying plants, animals, and microorganisms. While no single definition applies to all organisms, biologists rely principally on (1) morphological and genetic similarities and (2), for sexually reproducing organisms, the capability of interbreeding with one another but not other groups. If different species do interbreed, the offspring, if any, are often sterile. Biologists give species unique, binomial names: a generic name that includes closely related species, and a species-specific name.

According to this definition Floridas and Eastern kings are the same species. That's why they are intergrades of subspecies. I have always looked at all the common Kings as the same species. I am not just basing my comment on this thread. I am basing it on all the snakes I have encountered in my life. I have never come across any Hybrid in the wild. So it is safe to say that they are very rare. There may be hundreds found in a relatively short time of say one or two years but still compared to the overwhelming majority, they are rare. I am refering to Completely different animals that have been classified as different species. Even though the definition says a Species can reproduce and their offspring are not sterile.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I've seen lots of pictures but only 2 wild herps that I think might have been a hybrid was actually a turtle back east (in Ohio). Looked like a mix of painted and slider. Found it in a stream I was innertubing down on my honeymoon.

The first was actually my first pet snake which *may* have been a T. radix by T. elegans. He never really fit on any keys. My cat dragged him (or her) in. We were in a rural county in Colorado where both of those occur naturally.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

An additional question if i may:

considering historical data from various entities (zoos, museums, etc), is there any data indicating a greater amount of naturally-occurring hybrids being found with passage of time?

My question is derived from the unfortunate and inevitable human phenomena of industrialization and loss of land due to mass human population expansion -- there must be some contribution of this to the ever-increasing closer proximity of different species/ssp that at one time might not have been "crossing paths" so-to-speak.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

There are several examples where habitat alteration is believed to be responsible for an increased frequency of hybridization.

However, civilization can also have the opposite effect, for example when you build a giant city right where two or more types ecosystems merge. San Antonio, Texas, Saltillo MX, and Monterey MX are three examples. These cities are so large and impassable that they can (obviously) restrict corridors of natural gene flow.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

It's an interesting conversation about natural intergrades. It's incredibly unfortunate about how much we (humans) impact on the environment, therefore likely contributing in some way to (maybe) an increase in such intergradation. The playing field gets smaller and smaller. Just my thinking out loud...

Any documented evidence that you might know of on this?
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Not too much material on snakes, there is some on Frogs and lot on things other than herps.

I think you'll see a lot more of it with advancements in DNA technology. It fits right in with conservation genetics after all - I bet You (anyone) could even get a grant to do the research - I'd set up in Brewster county Texas and do it with Rattlesnakes both in North county and South county. South county is heavily over grazed and has permanent damage in some places, and has long been suspected as a hot spot for scut x atrox hybrids. I've also seen a few questionable animals in the healthy grasslands surrounding Marathon (North county).
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Hi Jerry, Last year there was an article in Western Naturalist, i believe.(I can check and find out) On a canebrake/atrox hybrid.

There were several things in that articule that was interesting. one it stated it had to use SCALE structure to verify it was a hybrid, as Dna did not work. I believe you need the actual parents(their DNA) to prove a relationship with DNA.

And they made the speculation that the neutralization of habitats, such as farmland, made it of no advantage for different species.

They also listed many many other natural occurring hybrids.

On the otherhand, while neutralized habitats may have some effect. Hybrids DO occur in natural habitat. The animals I have seen here are in undisturbed habitat.

With that said, habitat is ever changing particularly marginal habitat. Snake populations expand and contract with conditions. Often leaving animals in inappropriate habitat. At least for a short time, even years/decades etc. That is common in areas like the western U.S. Which is reason we have so many species.

An example is, here in arizona, we have aprox 14 rattlesnake species. Many overlap, many are found in the exact same habitat, doing similar things. An example is Mohaves and diamondbacks. Mohaves are pure, in grasslands, in true grasslands, mohaves are dominate and diamondbacks are absent. In true desert, diamondbacks are dominate and mohaves are absent. But in many areas where grasslands are evolving into desert. We see long periods of back and forth. This also involves elevation, normally grasslands are higher in elevation then deserts(drier). In dry periods(we are in one) deserts move up in elevation, in wet years, grasslands move down in elevation. Here these animals fluctuate back and forth.

It would be easy to see that species will become behaviorally confused.

Snakes react to pheromones, this predicts what they do. Pheromones are chemicals and can easily drift in a very short period. The stresses of behavioral and enviornmental changes can and SHOULD effect this. "to evolve"

Over millions of years, hybrids like a drop of oil in the ocean, its will have no effect and hybrids will be absorbed back into the prevailing species. But if there is longterm climate changes, that result in habitat changes, then its possible hybrids are take hold and become the normal species for that area and that time and into the future.

It was explained to me this way. An ethlogist said, species, subspecies, it does not matter, all of these animals were something moving(evolving) to be something else. What they are now is like stopping a river and saying, this is what the river is. When we all know the river is flowing and changing.

Its important to biologist to name and study a species, its important to ethlogist to study behaviors to tell what a species was and what its going to become.

The problem is the readers of information, they take things as static that are not static. People believe hybrids are not suppose to occur, we were taught that. We were also taught all species evolve. What they forgot was, to evolve also includes to hybridize. To actually see animals evolve is a wonder and a gift.

The problem here is, many do not want it to happen so they say it does not happen. Well it does, and as we look deeper and BETTER abilities to SEE, we are realizing that. We still do not have to like it, but to DISMISS it is another thing.

The odd behavior seen here and with newbie type biologists is, I like this, so I hate that. We are allowed to like whatever blows our shorts up. But why all the hate? Consider, folks say, pure(in nature) this and that, and hybrids are a part of nature, a key and interesting part of nature.

Consider, to understand an animal, its the little odd things that makes the normal interesting. Cheers

Frank, I have to say that this is THE best post I've ever read from you. BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO.

Although some of the words may not be originally yours, you carry them like an Olympic torch. I fully understand and comprehend what you said, especially this part:

"An example is, here in arizona, we have aprox 14 rattlesnake species. Many overlap, many are found in the exact same habitat, doing similar things. An example is Mohaves and diamondbacks. Mohaves are pure, in grasslands, in true grasslands, mohaves are dominate and diamondbacks are absent. In true desert, diamondbacks are dominate and mohaves are absent. But in many areas where grasslands are evolving into desert. We see long periods of back and forth. This also involves elevation, normally grasslands are higher in elevation then deserts(drier). In dry periods(we are in one) deserts move up in elevation, in wet years, grasslands move down in elevation. Here these animals fluctuate back and forth.

It would be easy to see that species will become behaviorally confused.

Snakes react to pheromones, this predicts what they do. Pheromones are chemicals and can easily drift in a very short period. The stresses of behavioral and enviornmental changes can and SHOULD effect this. "to evolve"

Over millions of years, hybrids like a drop of oil in the ocean, its will have no effect and hybrids will be absorbed back into the prevailing species. But if there is longterm climate changes, that result in habitat changes, then its possible hybrids are take hold and become the normal species for that area and that time and into the future.

It was explained to me this way. An ethlogist said, species, subspecies, it does not matter, all of these animals were something moving(evolving) to be something else. What they are now is like stopping a river and saying, this is what the river is. When we all know the river is flowing and changing."

Absolutely melodic and sensible....AND TRUE. My only gripe has been in the past of hybridization intentionally in captivity, like taking a Sinaloan and a corn snake. It just wouldnt happen out there in the real world Frank, BUT, to take a california king and a desert king (splendida), THAT I can see if one absolutely HAD to cross snakes in captivity....because it could happen "out there". Hope you see my point.

Again, incredible post that I appreciate. It actually brought a tear to my eye -- let me get the skirt. LOL. But seriously, that post really was incredible. Hope you can walk straight after what i wrote about it (swelled head), LOL.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Just wanted to highlight this post once more.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I absolutely see your point, but, there are different points of view.

From a scientific point of view. It was amazing that such species, so far apart(apparently not) could actually copulate and produce viable offspring. That was a huge education for many a biologist.

From the pet trade, who knows, that becomes personal tastes. To me, morphs, non normals, albinos, hybrids, are all the same, they are exceptions in nature that will most likely fail, and of personal taste in captivity.

As you know, what is odd to me is, a captive that in no way resembles a wild phenotype and is called local pure. In captivity it was line bred from exceptions to the norm, which resulted in something foreign to nature. Yes, it was in the relm of genotype, but not phenotype. Cheers