Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A while back, there was a discussion regarding the identity of a milk purchased as a "red milk". Some of the suggested identities included L. t. triangulum, an oddly patterned L. t. syspila, or a naturally ocurring triangulum X syspila intergrade. Since there was some interest in the topic, I thought I'd post this link to a thread on another forum which details some of the intergrade zone animals with varying degrees of syspila and triangulum phenotypic expression, (some obviously heavy on the triangulum). There sure are some neat things going on with their head patterns! Check it out: Milks.

-Cole

Here's a "pure" L. t. triangulum from northern Kentucky.

Hey that's a cool post. Good find Cole. I know their in a intergrade zone, but most of those milks look like L. t. triangulum is the stronger influence. Not all, but most, would you agree?

-Dell

I would agree, especially knowing that they're from the eastern part of the state. I'm curious to hear what people think about that animal you just posted, though... Keep it quiet until we get some guesses. He's a monster eater, by the way. Holy hell...

-Cole

Hey Cole and Dell,
I'm guessing you are talking about my mystery snake. I was never able to talk to or get any information from the supposed breeder. Here are some updated pics of my little girl. She is a pig and growing like a weed. I'm leaning toward a nicely colored triangulum but I suppose she could be an integrade. I was told the parents came from Kansas but at this point who knows. I will keep her as a pet and that is all. I'm very interested to see how she looks as an adult. After looking through old posts she looks similar to some of Joes easterns. I took these pics quickly after seeing this post so sorry for the poor quality. 3 weeks to Cherry Co.!

Chris Drake

Mine does look alot like the last one from Jackson Co. in that post.

Chris

I don't disagree with that!

-Cole

Such a beautiful animal and your not going to breed her? We need more Red/Eastern milks so the prices might come down a bit, lol. Great looking snake, congrats.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

That thing is BRIGHT, Chis! Regardless of its origin (I'm leaning toward "pure" nominate triangulum), it is an awesome animal.

Keep me posted on your Cherry Co. trip!

-Cole

I would say that is syspila from the highest elevation in their range. Same as this guy.

Dave

I thought you might recognize that dude! Nice work, buddy!

-Cole

he called me four or five times desperately asking me for the right answer.
Nathan

Nate, buddy! I got your e-mail the other day, but haven't had the chance to respond. You've got a great family, man! Cute kids, fo sho!

We need to get you up North for some herping as badly as we need to get us down South...

-Cole

Ha ha. I may have called you four or five times to make sure you don't forget to pick me up at the airport next weekend, butthead!

Dave

Cole,

That is an awesome post you linked us to. Thank you very much! I find this topic very interesting. I think it was Tony D that stated a few months ago that temporalis to the south were likely syspila x elapsoides integrades and temporalis to the north were likely syspila x triangulum integrades and I tend to buy that theory.

I look forward to spending some time looking at that post and the variety of easterns posted.

Heck, from one clutch Joecop hatched out, you can see the variety in two siblings pictured below. He and I tend to agree that there may be some temporalis influence in this locality in MD. Sure looks it to me on the one animal.

Dave

DNS Reptiles

I thought it was too cool of a post not to share with everyone! Glad you enjoyed! It sure is a fascinating topic, isn't it? Intergrade zones and phenotypic blending are cool subjects to wrap one's mind around.

Those are some sweet milks you posted, man! I've got a pair from the Great Lakes region that show incredible sexual dimorphism in color. I also see that you've offered up some phenomenal syspila in the last couple of days! I might have to jump in line for a pair next year...

-Cole

Great lakes region? Sweet. Which Great lake? Post some pics if you can. I grew up on the west side of Lake Erie (Buffalo) and would love to see what you've got.

Dave

COLOR does not make a Red Milk a Red Milk. If you dont know the difference besides COLOR, please refer to Williams(88)to key them out properly. There are RED Eastern milks and BROWN Red milks.....and when these 2 species intergrade(particularly in Iowa) its best to just refer to the LOCALITY rather than common name.

Your telling me I could find a brown milksnake and it wouldn't be called a brown milksnake? It could potentionally be a brown red milk. WOW! lol. I'm glad you clarified that Jeff with that amazing piece of knowledge! I don't know what we would have done with out you.

Chris

Chris, not everyone reading this thread knows this. I'm not saying you or the guys following dont ok? It wasnt an accusational thing, it was an educational thing. Sorry if that wasnt clear.

Dude, what are you talking about? When and where did anyone in this thread say that coloration had anything to do with it? Maybe it's too early and I haven't had enough coffee, but am I missing something?

-Cole