Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While I only keep a pair of Latis because I found them very interesting, and they turned out to be far more fun than I even thought, I've been giving thought to picking up a few more, or even some Coxi this season. My pair should produce this year, but I've also been looking elsewhere.

So, can anyone tell me what the heck happened to the pricing on these guys. I see some available at 1/2 to 1/3, (1/3 is no exaggeration) than the prices I paid 2 years ago, and the prices I saw last year.

While I've seen this happen before, there was usually an obvious reason behind it. With the Latis especially, I still really don't see that many available in this country. Just every now and then. The only thing I can think of is imports, but even with that I don't see all that many available. I paid $900 for a pair in '08, the prices seemed a little less last year, but I see them for around $400 for pairs now.
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Brian Suter

www.serpenteer.com

They are fairly easy to breed and often multi clutch each year for some. Captive hatchlings are much easier to find each year than the one previous. There is a large breeder that is breeding the different subspecies like mice for the last several years.

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Randy Whittington

Hopefully, in the near future, I may be able to afford one of these exceptional beauties!

Matthew

I know what you mean Brian. I got a pair of coxi in 08 for $750. I almost decided to go with the latiicinctus, but they were almost double the price I payed for the coxi(at that time). I was glad that I went with the coxi because a few months after I recieved them the prices of the latic. decreased by half, from the same breeder. They are great snakes though, and I don't regret buying them at all. I'm not in it for the money, but it is a little frustraiting when you pay that much money for a pair of animals that you plan on breeding. It's hard not to think of it as an investment. I guess all we can do is roll with the punches and enjoy our hobby.

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Matt Kauffman

The snake market.........is a funny and sometimes crazy thing
As the breeder the posters are talking about (I think) I feel the need to respond.
There are many forces that drive prices......imports (both wild and overseas), how many others are playing in the same market, the breeders ability to produce, and the economic health of the market as well as the country, etc.
We always try to be fair to all in our pricing. Fair to guy who bought two years ago, fair to the guy who bought last year as well as the guy who bought last week. Believe me, we would LOVE to keep prices high, but the factors I listed above seem to force the prices lower sooner than I would like.
In the case of Laticinctus, there have been a decent number of wild imports coming in over the last few years. The importers know wild asian ratsnakes don't do well, so they price them well below market to sell them quickly before something happens to the snakes. That in turn "resets" the expected pricing on those snakes. We can try to be firm but now that everyone can see that low price, that is what sticks in their minds. We are forced to compete with snakes that aren't of the same quality based on price. And that sucks! As anyone who has worked with wild caught asian rats knows, there is a huge difference between true US captive bred and wild caughts.
The pricing on the Coxi is a different deal in that there hasn't been the wild imports to deal with. But there are breeders in Europe who have had good breeding success who have no problem selling below market to large reptile companies. Those companies need to sell that product so they too go below market pricing.
On the other hand, lower pricing does "open" the market up for more folks. At $450 a pair rather $900 a pair, there are more folks willing to pay $450. Which I think is a good thing. More folks get to enjoy these awesome snakes. More folks get to experience them hands on. And I like that too......

correct.....alot of us already have the $500 cornsnakes that they cannot sell for $40.....the $3000 balls that sell wholesale now at $70.........ALOT of people will still buy coxi and lats....trust me...I am one of them......I just wasn't going to pay it....I almost did...but I thought coxi got 6 foot...then found out they got 3....that also slowed down the purchase....

....and space....I will probably buy a pair of each this year....but right now...I have 0 cage space available and lots of eggs coming......!!!....sucks....LOL......

we have to sell our stuff to make room and money....and the market slowed down our sales.....

...Good luck all....!!! Have fun...

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......JY

Well first off I would have NEVER mentioned any names or breeders but since Chad chimed in I feel ok saying it. Also, I really respect the fact that he did.

I did purchase my Latis from Pro Exotics. First and foremost, it was an excellent transaction, with lots of great info from Robyn and Andy. It was very hard, at that time and still, to find much good info on the Latis. They are great snakes, and have done incredibly well for me. So, I have absolutely no complaints or regrets.

Ok, but I may be the perfect example here, however. I just checked, and I bought those snakes in June of 2009. So, not even a year ago. I paid $900 for the pair. Right now, PE sells '09s for $350 a pair. And even '08 animals, which could possibly be breeders at this point are $450 a pair. So, in less than a year, the same snakes are being sold for half, and newer hatchlings are even less than that. That isn't just a simple drop, and I just don't see that many people working with these animals at this point. At least not like the corns and Balls listed above.

I see them on sale in the classifieds from time to time. Some imported some not. That price point is on par with the imports I suppose. But, I guess people are picking up the imports left and right at those prices and I'm not hearing about it much?

I've been around long enough to know that prices fall rapidly. But the only other time I've seen this happen was with albino leopard geckos. And I think we can agree more people by far work and breed leopard geckos. But imports didn't cause that for sure, the major breeder at the time affected the price. But this price change is huge for a snake that isn't widespread, even if they have been easy to breed. From $900 to $350 in less than a year is huge for most of us.

I suppose the ease of breeding plays a big part, but there are other species that are imported in large numbers (and do very poorly as imports) at low prices, but the US captive bred specimens still retain higher prices. Right away I think of Green Tree Pythons. Captive bred babies are normally double the price, but again, they aren't as easy to breed.

I want to be very clear here, I'm not questioning Chad or PE at all. I'm super happy with the snakes, and the way they handled the transaction, they are great animals. I'm a very experienced keeper, but needed as much info as possible when paying that price for a snake I had trouble finding info on, and they helped me with it. It was probably the reason I actually bought them, not normally something I would do. My question was just how the price fell apart, and why. I don't keep snakes for money, but like someone else mentioned, when you pay that kind of price, you have to think you'll at least get a good part back early on. I would have thought we'd see these prices maybe in 3 or 4 years at the earliest. I don't regret my purchase at all, but had I known that the price would be where it is now, I sure would have waited a year.
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Brian Suter

www.serpenteer.com

only so many people want them...after the ad runs and runs and runs for weeks with no sales...it's time to wonder why...so as mentioned...wild stuff hits...wild stuff lays eggs without any work....and all other reasons....

they are bred alot more than you think.....

....I been watching coxi for 10 years....I could have gotten a pair OVER a year ago for like 600.......

instead I used the 600 to buy a lesser and an enchi ball...which still sell for more than that now on the classifieds....it's all where you go...how bad the show is and the time of year....

.....balls....they ask more for wild crap right now than they pay us for captives....aout the same as they pay for pastels....why?...time....

corns...they paid 3$ wholesale last year and at $5 retail they still didn't sell.......and I don't care what morph it was....

anyways.......I still need cage space....LOL
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......JY

Hey Brian, I know what you are saying, and yes, it does look like you got caught in a tight pricing spot.

We do breed the porph species incredibly well. Frankly, I don't know how this didn't happen ten years ago. We have always had terrific success with them, but it seems like only in the past couple of years that other breeders, here and abroad, are having equally strong success.

The porph pricing is a simple expression of supply and demand. We had our best year ever, but at the anticipated pricing, we weren't moving enough babies and yearlings to offset production.

Latis are a "newer" species, so I originally anticipated they would hold a stronger value than Coxi. The reality is different. The Coxi retain such great markings as adults that they remain the most popular porph species. No problem, I really dig them, but I guessed wrong on demand : )

There are very few customers at $1500 each (as we paid for original stock, in forced 2.1 reverse trios : ). There are still only a handful at $1500 a pair. A few more at $900-$1000 a pair. But TONS more at a $350-$500 pair pricepoint.

They are a terrific species to keep and work with, and very beautiful visually.

We happen to have a couple more yearling female Latis still on hand. Would a yearling female at no charge help to soothe the "bite" a bit for you? I would be happy to do that, we certainly appreciate your business and support.

Onward and upward with the mighty porphyraceus!
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

>>Hey Brian, I know what you are saying, and yes, it does look like you got caught in a tight pricing spot.
>>
>>We do breed the porph species incredibly well. Frankly, I don't know how this didn't happen ten years ago. We have always had terrific success with them, but it seems like only in the past couple of years that other breeders, here and abroad, are having equally strong success.
>>
>>The porph pricing is a simple expression of supply and demand. We had our best year ever, but at the anticipated pricing, we weren't moving enough babies and yearlings to offset production.
>>
>>Latis are a "newer" species, so I originally anticipated they would hold a stronger value than Coxi. The reality is different. The Coxi retain such great markings as adults that they remain the most popular porph species. No problem, I really dig them, but I guessed wrong on demand : )
>>
>>There are very few customers at $1500 each (as we paid for original stock, in forced 2.1 reverse trios : ). There are still only a handful at $1500 a pair. A few more at $900-$1000 a pair. But TONS more at a $350-$500 pair pricepoint.
>>
>>They are a terrific species to keep and work with, and very beautiful visually.
>>
>>We happen to have a couple more yearling female Latis still on hand. Would a yearling female at no charge help to soothe the "bite" a bit for you? I would be happy to do that, we certainly appreciate your business and support.
>>
>>Onward and upward with the mighty porphyraceus!
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>>robyn@proexotics.com
>>
>>ShipYourReptiles.com
>>Pro Exotics Reptiles
>>

WOW
Brian, I hope you read this!!!!!!!!
Robin, that is an incedible offer.
You have just put Pro Exotics at the top of my list when I start looking to buy !!!!!!!!
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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Don't you wish other breeders had integrity like that!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

That's a real stand-up thing to do Robyn. I'd also like to say that in no way shape or form am I sorry that I bought a pair of coxi from PE. They were very helpful and professional to work with. I love my 08 pair and I still hope to breed them next year. Once you learn the husbandry required for these snakes they are almost indestructable. I do have a question. I have heard that pretty much all the coxi in this country originated from 7 or 8 wild caught specimens, is this accurate? Thanks .
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Matt Kauffman

Hey Matt, all of our stock originated from Klaus in Germany. Not sure how much of his stock is/was unrelated.

When they first came in though, Coxi, Vaillanti, Latis, Pulchra, they were always sold as 2.1 trios for $4500.

Ouch. That was always a tough bill, but you always got a great species to work with : )

I agree with you about setup and husbandry, once you understand the need for both a temperature and moisture gradient (so that they don't get either too dry nor too hot) then they are easy breezy. More and more folks are getting into them now, so I think they will continue to rise in popularity.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Brian, I feel your pain. I've been interested in mandarins for years and its the same thing. The first I saw was at a show and it blew me away, first by the beauty then the price at $400 for a baby. Wow. That price held for a few years and I summoned the nerve to purchase a baby male which I raised to a fine 24" beauty. This was before I built my snake room and as rottin luck has it, it escaped into my basement never to be seen again. Damn.
It took a while to get over that loss but I eventually bought another pair of babies for $500.(the price is dropping) While they are doing fine, they grow slow so when a deal came up on a mated adult captive bred pair I jumped on it. $750 total.
So now that I have a couple eggs cooking from them the price has dropped down again and while some still ask $400 for a baby, you can get males for half that. What can you do, right?
$400 snakes will never sell in pet stores or be a quick or easy sale but at $200 you'll see more and more available to the occasional pet snake owner. Now I'm expanding to red tailed green rats. I hope they will stay less common for a while.
Mike.

Well, here's the thing. I'm not looking for a quick and easy sell. I think like most people in this hobby, I keep snakes because I'm fascinated by them, not because I can profit. Don't get me wrong, I've sold my share of babies, and I most certainly like the money when that happens. But in the end, if I even break even I'm more than happy.

Honestly, I keep these animals because I like them, and I love the process of breeding them. I don't breed everything I have every year, because I need to be sure I can get rid of the babies. However, that takes us back to the money and the "break even" idea.

I probably spend as much money on equipment, cages, supplies, etc... as I do on snakes. Or at least some years I do. So, when you decide to buy some higher end animals (which for some reason, there's always another I seem to need), you hope to at least get a chunk of that back.

I understand prices drop. Of course they do. I've been HEAVY in to this hobby for about 15 years. I've seen prices go crazy, and I've seen them drop. But I still can say, that the drop in the snakes we're talking about was out of the ordinary and that's why I posted to see if anyone had insight as to why. For a snake to drop each year is expected of course. Especially if it turns out to be prolific. But, each year, even on more popular species, what do you normally see as a drop. $100 maybe. Sometimes more, sometimes less, and of course there are always exceptions. But, the latis went from $900 to $350 in LESS than a year. That's nuts no matter how you slice it.

I just hope they hang in there for awhile. These are awesome, weird snakes with an attitude. I really want to work with them before they are the next $50 snake that you can't give away. When you see crazy price drops like that, you have to worry that is going to happen.

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Brian Suter

www.serpenteer.com

I still see more latis around than coxi. I hear they are more prolific and I've seen the price drops going on. Saw the same couple of pairs at several reptile shows with falling prices every time. Coxi were nowhere to be seen at those shows.

Vaillanti seem less prolific and continue to command a higher price....
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Nick Puder
www.rnpreptiles.com