Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The so-called herp nation is squandering a golden opportunity to take charge of its own destiny.

Instead of taking control,however, far too many seem all too willing to play the victim and use spurious arguments to bolster an untenable position.

It's really too bad because it's attitudes like this that end up screwing everybody.

Sigh.

Haw can someone be so wrong!
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

HSUS CARE SHEETS FROM THE PREVIOUS POST:

I just found these care sheets on there website!!!! LOL

Snake care sheet

Snakes should not be kept as pets, they belong in the wild!!

Gecko care sheet

Geckos should not be kept as pets, they belong in the wild!!

Frog care sheet

frogs should not be kept as pets, they belong in the wild!!

General reptile care sheet

Reptiles should not be kept as pets, they belong in the wild!!

General animal care sheet

Animals should not be kept as pets, they belong in the wild!!

THAT'S RIGHT STEPH, WE'RE ALL WRONG AND YOU'RE RIGHT!

JSC
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

So edgeamacate us,
what is our "golden" opportunity to take charge of its own destiny?

And buy the way you say we want an unatainable position the only possition wes want is to be able to keep what we always have we are not asking for more!!
Rob

Steph, if you had things your way, the "golden way" what would herptaculture in the USA look like?

What are YOUR suggestions, real, honest to goodness suggestions about what to do regarding the burm situation and this new regulation?

You have dodged answering anything with real substance like a champ so far...What about putting your money where your snark is?

What SHOULD we be doing in your opinion?

It has everything to do with taking responsibility.

1) Own the problem. This appears to be the biggest hurdle of all, based on comments made here. Unfortunately, passing the buck reinforces the impression of you as being irresponsible. Inchoate protests about you rights and bashing the opposition in order to 'defend' your position only erodes your credibility.

2) Draft common sense guidelines and regulations to aid in prevention of problem arising again in the future. Adapt industry-wide standards. Incentivise compliance if necessary. Develop bulletproof inventory tracking systems. Standardize secure storage techniques. Adapt hygiene and housing standards that will keep the crazies off your backs. If you are indeed the 'real' experts, you ought to be able to put your heads together and come up with some basic criteria for deserving to stay in business that responsible dealers can meet.

3)Police yourselves so others won't have to. Screen and educate buyers. Offer exotic pet amnesty events on a regular basis. Report lax security standards at breeder/dealer facilities. Apply peer pressure to avoid government pressure. Follow up on customers at regular intervals.

In other words, make a good faith effort to put a lid back on Padora's Box. You've been given a gift: the gift of a cold snap that may have brought populations of certain exotic herps in Florida down to manageable sizes. Offer your services to track down and capture any remaining animals. And do everything possible to prevent this from reoccurring!

DO NOT BE PART OF THE PROBLEM. BE PART OF THE SOLUTION.

ALL OF THESE EITHER HAVE BEEN DONE OR ARE IN THE PROCESS. GET WITH THE PROGRAM AND LISTEN INSTEAD OF TALK. If you were up to date on what is being done you would know this. Actually what you suggest is good but is NOTHING new...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

There has been NO talk of any of this here since I was asked to come contribute...none at all. Most posts here involve rallies to resist any regulatory measures, but fail to provide any mention of common sense alternatives. And I haven't seen any calls to SUPPORT any measures proposed or put forward by the herp community. NONE.

And given that I am not exactly out of the loop on herp issues, please tell me WHY I have heard exactly ZILCH on any efforts by the herp community at self governance? This in and of itself indicates that any efforts at outreach to fellow herpers are failing.

In general most threads on this forum rapidly degenerate into knee-jerk anti-government rants. Or sessions of wallowing in denial. One only has to read other responses to this thread to see that there are parties who persist in maintaining that there is no problem, or that nothing can be done about it. Washing hands or giving up, this is hardly acceptance of responsibility.

The fact that virtually to a man you have been openly hostile toward me or people who might think as I do is a huge problem for this cause. Internecine battle is unproductive to say the least. I know plenty of herp enthusiasts, myself included, who want to preserve their privileges but don't get involved because of the attitudes amongst dealers and breeders that are in such abundant evidence here.

It's a shame really.

>>There has been NO talk of any of this here since I was asked to come contribute...none at all.

Just curious, who asked you to contribute and why?

>>Most posts here involve rallies to resist any regulatory measures, but fail to provide any mention of common sense alternatives. And I haven't seen any calls to SUPPORT any measures proposed or put forward by the herp community. NONE.

>>And given that I am not exactly out of the loop on herp issues, please tell me WHY I have heard exactly ZILCH on any efforts by the herp community at self governance? This in and of itself indicates that any efforts at outreach to fellow herpers are failing.

This is absolutely ridiculous. Groups and individuals have proposed and helped enact laws regarding handling, security, etc., of certain species. For you to make such a ridiculous statement is mind boggling.

>>
>>In general most threads on this forum rapidly degenerate into knee-jerk anti-government rants.

Because some people believe that government intrusion IS the real problem. But at least the government puts forth bogus science to
try to support its claims/conclusion, unlike you, who doesn't feel the need to support any of your claims.

PHFaust suggested I come here to obtain information and to pose questions.

As for this:

"This is absolutely ridiculous. Groups and individuals have proposed and helped enact laws regarding handling, security, etc., of certain species. For you to make such a ridiculous statement is mind boggling. "

Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing...my question was ***why hadn't I heard about it?***

Which is not ridiculous at all. What does border on ridiculous is the failure of dissemination of accurate information amongst herpers.

So, why haven't I heard about these efforts? Instead of misreading my statement and jumping in to tell me my imagined views are ridiculous, why not drop the defensive attitude and ask yourselves why you aren't doing a better job of informing potential allies?

What is in plain view here is an image problem, a message problem, an outreach problem, and an abundance of attitude problems.

Chasing away people like me isn't going to help you in the long run.

How would I know why you haven't heard about any of the initiatives? That is not a reflection on anyone but you, you obviously are not involved enough to care. I am not a breeder nor a dealer, I'm simply an average Joe Schmuck with 3 snakes as pets. Why do I know what's going on and you don't? How should I know why you don't? And people here are telling you that you are wrong, and then you keep arguing with them! Makes no sense. Just about everything you've said is wrong and/or baseless opinion.

I am not trying to chase you away. Like Tom said, it's cheap entertainment to see you make a fool of yourself. And for the umpteenth time you again blatantly avoided backing up your claims with ANY evidence whatsoever, even though you've righteously lectured others for doing that. That's why you are getting criticized, if you didn't already know that.

Ok, I'm done.

The problem is steph there is no problem it is all made up and it is all about politics.
The reptile industry has no more problems than most any other industry. 99% of the sellers do a good job and 99% of the buyers do a good job. you are always going to have a few bad apples out there and passing laws is not going to change that it will probobly make it wors because it will go underground.
for the few people who get bad info it is indefencable because the info is everywhere in books care sheets and free on the web so all the info anyone would want is available to them and almost any seller will help them as well.
Shelters are not overrun with reptiles, most shelters complain but mostly about 2 or 3 types of animals and they are only full because there are so few. The only animals pet shops or other herpers don't take in redaly are RES, and large male agressive Iguanas and sometimes large bermese but all others are redily taken in fact even sold or "adopted" for money which isn't a bad thing it helps pay expenses but there is not a glut of unadoptable reptiles that have to be put down.
This whole python in the everglades thing was handled by florida a coupple years ago and we implimented the ROC to restrict ownership. Many states have laws for animals that could pose a threat to the environment Hawaii restricts snakes and lizards and others California restricts crocs, primates, venomus, pirana, snake heads and others, many states restrict monk parrots native animals and game animals florida many fish and reptiles the point is these are all state issues and we addressed our problem!!! All of a sudden some rediculas science came out about pythons covering the country and everyone freeked out. The media loves it polititions love it and the AR's love it and everyone knows its lies but they are trying to keep the ball rolling. This has all happened in only a year or so and people get mad when people come in and and say there is a problem with the reptile comunity when the the problem is the other side keeps lieing and perpetuates there lies as fact and dumb american don't know any better. The media only wants to give there side and only shows the few bad apples out there. It is a WAR and there is nothing to come up with on our side we already solved the problem but they are making problems where none exist to prepetuate there agendas, make money and grab power.
Rob

Rob,

I would like to correct this as I have run a reptile rescue for the past 15 years. The majority of my animals currently are Boa Constrictors, Ball pythons and RES. HOWEVER this year alone I have taken in carpet python, tokay gecko, crested geckos, leopard geckos, russian torts, kingsnakes, corn snakes, milk snakes. I am receiving a shelter transfer of two rosy boas. I also have seen dumerils boas, argentine boas, mexican black kingsnakes, hognose, gopher snakes. The list could go on. Last week I picked up a pair of three toed boxies. So the animals hitting rescue are very varied.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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I knew I would get a response from a rescuer but there is no corection nessary because my point is still accurate because all of the animals you listed you could get rid of in one day on craigs list or tske them to a local pet store for free. I am sure you either keep them for your self or you have an adoption fee which is sometimes as much as they sell for in a store. People give them to rescues because they feel less guilty about it than selling it or giving it to a pet store, They feel you will try harder to get it a good home rather than a pet store who will sell it to anyone with the money. All the points were not directed directly at you just rescues in general which I am all for but if you realy wanted you could empty your rescue in one day probobly just in this forum. (you will probobly have offers befor I finish this post) My general point was that unlike dogs and cats reptiles are not hard to fine a home for.
Rob

Actually I do not take owner surrender and specifically deal with shelters. I do in fact have an adoption fee and adoption process, however each animal is maintained here for a minimum of 2 months and makes a trip to a vet prior to adoption.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

The Central Fl. Herp society was behind the roc regs that we had here in Fl. until a week ago or so. I should know because much to everyone's horror I very vocally opposed some of the things I disliked about the regs at one of the meetings while quite unknown to me some big wigs from fwc were in attendance as well as a few fl. reps from the fl. legislature ( not that I care, I speak my mind, right or wrong, you will always know where I stand.) I am also aware of one attempt by Wayne Hill to spearhead some regulations in the industry. Wayne is the guy who does the Big show in Daytona every year among other things.
I believe both pijaac and usark have both worked on modifying regulations that would have been more draconian in nature.
I could go on but I do have things to do today.

You don't know about it because you're NOT a part of it. USARK, myself, and countless others have been doing or trying to do ALL the things you mention. The reason you don't know is because ALL you do is WHINE [which I hope you have cheese with]. Jon C. with whom you bicker with has been closely working with USARK on many of these issues. Are you a member of USARK? If you were you would already know these things so that question is already answered. You are a BLOW HARD KID with nothing to say because you have no knowledge and apparently NOT even the knowledge to becomed learned [pronunciation on this word can be 2 ways] about the subject. I'm about finished as it's an exercise in futility to match wits with an unarmed opponent....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

And why aren't I a part of it? Where's the outreach? Where's the civilized discourse? I belong to a herp society...why haven't you tuned up at any of our meetings or at least provided literature? Why do you drive away people who presume to ask questions?

Your methods are passive aggressive: instead of seeking out members, you apparently force them to search for you...

You can't expect people to find you if they don't know that you exist. You can't expect people to join you when you treat them like their the enemy.

And once you vilify them, you can expect a long hard job ahead if you want to win them over...

"I belong to a herp society...why haven't you tuned up at any of our meetings or at least provided literature?"

OK, I'll bite. What Herp Society do you belong to?

Then maybe someone from USARK will contact them, if they haven't already.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

OK, you'll bite? There's that attitude again...At this point I've pretty much given up on even *considering* supporting this cause in the face of this kind of crap. Keep it up: you're your own worst enemies.

For the record, the VA Herp Society.

I would agree with many of those suggestions and have advocated some of them for years.

As far as the "9 deadly constrictors" go, it's a mute point, if the ban takes place.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>It has everything to do with taking responsibility.
>>
>>
>>1) Own the problem.

Hysterical. You've avoided the plethora of requests to provide evidence to prove what the problem is and that it exists. You've blatanly avoided EVERY SINGLE request, yet you still claim there is a "problem." This is called circular logic, Steph. You've failed Debating 101.

Only in your fantasy world does us asking you to back up your claims lead to the conclusion that we are irresponsible owners.

Steph sorry but you are talking out your ass.
To your first point: the herp comunity has accepted responsibility for the problem, we all know that if there was no herps the propbem would not exist and no one is trying to pass the buck we just expect acuracy in the judgement. Defending against lies and and unsubstanciated judgements does not erode your credibility it shows you will stand and fight for the truth to come out.
second: This is completely unrealistic and there is no way to enact or enforce almost any of it for all animals out there. and almost all states have secure storage tachnics for venomus reptiles and florida now has it for all the Roc's
three: most of this is already being done but there is no way to control every person on every level at all times unless you want extreemly restrictive laws. And again this is a country of 50 states and the problem is in one tiny corner of one state and you want to penelize everyone for it and the problem has been being delt with for several years in that area.
lastly maby you have been on the moon for a few years but everything in your last statement has been done and is being done now. The biggest problem is those in charge don't want it to be cleaned up untill they have milked it for money and power.
It is curently illeagl to go hunt berms unless you get a special permit and they don't just give them out and they are only for certain areas. People are very good at making things go extinct if given the oportunity but it seems like they want this to go on for a while. I wonder why???
enough for now!
Rob

You could help the cause by stop taking Box Turtles out of the wild and keeping them as personal pets Steph. Box Turtles are rapidly diminishing in numbers and yet you have them. That is cause for as much or more attacks on the Herp Industry as Pythons are....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I refuse to play the game anymore.

I have to come to the defence of StephF on this issue, Tom.

"I have only Eastern box turtles in my care here. I'm not interested in expanding the 'herd'. I'm not in the pet trade at all, nor am I a collector: my primary interest is conservation. All of my turtles came from a single construction site before they were bulldozed into oblivion.

I have been known to salvage eggs from roadkill of other species of turtle, incubate them and release the hatchlings (in the same area where the female was found.)" Source: forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1794946,1799491

Yes. Very commendable. That is what I'm about, as well.

Still not sure how the banning mentality can facilitate or contribute to any of this in a meaningful way.

The Animal Rights Agenda has nothing positive, constructive, or proactive to do with Conservation of Species or Habitat.

First we must stop the ban agenda, before more comprehensive work can be done.

I'm sorry some people can't seem to understand this.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Please do not assume that I favor the ban as this is not correct.

Unexpected. And appreciated. Thank you.

Sorry, Steph, wrong again, and a further illustration of your remarkable ability to post things without any proof whatsoever.

Just so that no one here is deceived by your unsupported comments, I would suggest reading the following PIJAC Submission to the USFWS Rule Change to add 9 constrictors as injurious animals to the Lacy Act to understand how flawed the argument in favour of this rule change really is:

PIJAC Submission to the USFWS Rule Change

And, to further address your concerns, Steph, the above document clearly illustrates that our position is indeed tenable, and that the Reptile Nation is being proactive about this issue on all fronts.

Thank you for the link.

The first 20 pages were dedicated to attempting, in great detail, to undermine the opposition.

I had to scroll all the way down to the last two pages to read about the 4 rather vague 'initiatives'.

As someone who would like to hear more about what the industry is doing I'd like to see more. It's a shame that the industry can't provide the same level of detail when outlining it's own 'initiatives'. The fact that the wording is so very generalized and vague tells me that efforts are far from clearly defined or organized.

Steph, Habitattitude (the website) has been in existence since July, 2004. I'm not sure how long the other organizations have been around, but I can say that the National Reptile Improvement Plan was in place well before all the current anti-reptile legislation, and that the Non-Native Pet Amnesty Day program has been around for a while also (perhaps when Reptiles of Concern (ROC) was legislated).

Keep in mind, all of these issues, currently being discussed at the Federal level, were historically addressed by state and local governments for many years, and likely there are initiatives at the state and local level that I am unaware of.