Reptile & Amphibian Forums

For years I have tried to picture how the king/gopher hybred came about in the wild. Male king grabs a female gopher and decides sex is more fun than eating? theOLDherper

And ytou're telling ME to stop?!?!?!?!? LMAO.....this forum is getting good laughs recently, thank God. Thanks for lightening it up OLDherper.....might you have a name or did i miss that.......we'll call you "comedy relief" from here-on-in.....LOL. But interesting point indeed as it's one of those things that makes ya go "hmmmmmmmm" (which can also double as a great FR impression......LOL......oh we're on a roll now....).
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Another point to ponder - again in the wild - a couple of years down the road this hybred meets a sibling of the oposite sex and they mate. Say this happens through a couple of generations. [remember-just seculating] Does this create a new species? May soud like dumb question, but remember, I am 35 years behind you guys and trying like hell to catch up. theOLDherper-AKA comic relief

Each successive generation the animal chooses for one set of genes and against the other.....til a overactive LOCALITY NUT like Jerry finds it and declares it PURE again!

Can't I ask what I think is a simple question without starting another name calling contest? I am begining to see what you mean Jerry. 'Pete' theOLDherper

That one was particularly pointed and funny and appropriate so sorry if you didnt get it. But the premise is correct. Offspring will choose which mate smells better, pheremones. This happens all the time. The chances of a "new species" made from a single mating are almost impossible. But they could alter the "locality look" enough to make them different.

extremely rare yes, but not close to impossible.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

OK, smart guy, name me one instance that this has actually happened. Just one. Now I'm not saying it hasnt happened or cant happen, but my point was its next to impossible to create a new SPECIES from a hybrid. Note, I did not say subspecies or locality I did say SPECIES. Thanks.

Fox Snakes
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Are you really thinking Fox snakes are a SPECIES that evolved from a single hybridization event?? Tell me you have some proof.

>>Are you really thinking Fox snakes are a SPECIES that evolved from a single hybridization event?? Tell me you have some proof.

The closest living relatives to fox snakes are snakes of the genus pantherophis, pituophis, and scotophis. DO SOME RESEARCH INSTEAD OF ARGUING OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD.

There are probably 1000's of examples alive today among the 5 to 100 million species living on earth. Rather than put the burden of proof on me, why don't you prove that NONE of the 5 to 100 million species arrived by this method.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>Are you really thinking Fox snakes are a SPECIES that evolved from a single hybridization event?? Tell me you have some proof.

The closest living relatives to fox snakes are snakes of the genus pantherophis, pituophis, and scotophis. DO SOME RESEARCH INSTEAD OF ARGUING OFF THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD.

There are probably 1000's of examples alive today among the 5 to 100 million species living on earth. Rather than put the burden of proof on me, why don't you prove that NONE of the 5 to 100 million species arrived by this method.

JOE, I posted "its next to impossible" for this to occur. You followed with a "suggestion" without proof. Yet you ask ME to do the research?? NOPE, you cant have it both ways. DO YOUR OWN RESERCH. Just because they are related to other colubrids in NO WAY does this mean a hybridization event ever occured, never mind led to this said SPECIES. They most likely had a similar ancestor and geographic isolation occured. You only have to look at the Geography to figure this one out! Just because your eyes are REALLLY close together doesnt mean your grandparents were brother and sister! LMAO. You put the burden on yourself by making such a suggestion!

this is the statement that set you off

"extremely rare yes, but not close to impossible"

Folks a lot smarter than I say that is indeed how Fox snakes arrived. Current range doesn't mean didly squat, and you "should" know that.

You don't have to take my word for it, and I'm sure you won't
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

No, what set me off is you offering up a sacrificial species with simply NO PROOF. My geography arguement had nothing to do with species specific ranges(current or historical) but of the historical GEOGRAPHY of the area. Things such as water levels and ice ages affect genetic isolation from a common ancestor,rare but not close to impossible. You used "them" first, so I suggest "more" would agree to that theory than any kind of single, random hybridization event.

Is it possible? Yes. That is what I mean by next to impossible, which is much different than "rare". We can all think of "rare" occurances(me letting a scientific arguement go). So stop the small talk and show me some proof of why Fox snakes are derived from a hybrid. Feel free to cite any DNA work or names on papers. "Trust me" doesnt fly with me, sorry.

Jeff, quit wasting your time. You can't prove that it didn't happen, so I can throw the same BS at you. Where's your proof?

It's rare, NOT next to impossible. You can't be that naive, or can you?

If it that rare, there wouldn't be 1000's of articles about Hybrid speciation.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe, you win, Fox snakes are made of green cheese. I cant prove they arent.

You and I both know that the moon is NOT made of green cheese and we can PROVE that.

But NEITHER you or I can prove the FOX snake argument.
so I'm going to throw it back on you, YOU WIN because you can't prove that NONE of the 5 to 100 million species alive on earth today are a result of hybrid speciation.

The DNA work is still in it's infancy, but eventually it will be able to resolve all of these relationships, just like the Human Genome proves we have NEANDERTHAL in our family tree. OH HECK! You and I are the result of hybrid speciation!!!! OMG Green cheese!!!!
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe, YOU put forth Fox snakes without proof. I asked for proof and I get rhetoric. "Off the top of your head", you chose to make the arguement without proof. When questioned, requestioned, and everything else you admit you have none. WHY bring the arguement to begin with? We could have used this space to have an arguement about proof instead of the lack of it! LMAO. If there are 100 Million species out there I'm sure there is at least 1 that occured from a hybridization event. Now go find it, get that proof and come back to me with a decent arguement! All in good fun!

Here's one

Speciation by hybridization in Heliconius butterflies

Jesús Mavárez1,4, Camilo A. Salazar2,4, Eldredge Bermingham1, Christian Salcedo2, Chris D. Jiggins3 and Mauricio Linares2

1. Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute, Apartado postal 0843-03092, Panamá, República de Panamá
2. Instituto de Genética, Universidad de los Andes, Carrera 1E No 18ª–10, PO Box 4976, Santafé de Bogotá D.C., Colombia
3. Institute of Evolutionary Biology, School of Biological Sciences, University of Edinburgh, West Mains Road, Edinburgh EH9 3JT, UK
4. *These authors contributed equally to this work

Correspondence to: Jesús Mavárez1,4Mauricio Linares2 Correspondence and requests for materials should be addressed to M.L. (Email: mlinares@uniandes.edu.co) or J.M. (Email: mavarezj@si.edu). The sequences have been deposited in GenBank under accession numbers DQ445384–DQ445414 (Distal-less) and DQ445416–DQ445457 (Invected).
Top of page

Speciation is generally regarded to result from the splitting of a single lineage. An alternative is hybrid speciation, considered to be extremely rare, in which two distinct lineages contribute genes to a daughter species. Here we show that a hybrid trait in an animal species can directly cause reproductive isolation. The butterfly species Heliconius heurippa is known to have an intermediate morphology and a hybrid genome1, and we have recreated its intermediate wing colour and pattern through laboratory crosses between H. melpomene, H. cydno and their F1 hybrids. We then used mate preference experiments to show that the phenotype of H. heurippa reproductively isolates it from both parental species. There is strong assortative mating between all three species, and in H. heurippa the wing pattern and colour elements derived from H. melpomene and H. cydno are both critical for mate recognition by males.

here's two

Speciation via introgressive hybridization in East African cichlids?

Salzburger W, Baric S, Sturmbauer C.

Department of Zoology and Limnology, University of Innsbruck, Technikerstrasse 25, A-6020 Innsbruck, Austria.
Abstract

Speciation caused by introgressive hybridization occurs frequently in plants but its importance remains controversial in animal evolution. Here we report a case of introgressive hybridization between two ancient and genetically distinct species of Lake Tanganyika cichlids that led to the formation of a new species. Neolamprologus marunguensis contains mtDNA haplotypes from both parental species varying on average by 12.4% in the first section of the control region and by 5.2% in a segment of the cytochrome b gene. All individuals have almost identical DNA sequences in the flanking regions of the single-copy nuclear DNA locus TmoM27, and show a mosaic of alleles derived from both parental lineages in six microsatellite loci. Hence, our finding displays another mode of speciation in cichlid fishes. The increase of genetic and phenotypic diversity due to hybridization may contribute to the uniquely rapid pace of speciation in cichlids.

OH LOOK, A UNIVERSITY THAT STUDIES HYBRID SPECIATION HAHAHA

http://www.zin.ru/labs/herplab/research4.html

Hybridogenic complexes of European green frogs, the diploid-tetraploid complex in green toads of Central Asia, and other interesting cases of uncommon speciation have been studied by Leo Borkin and his coauthors. Geographic (allopatric) speciation has also been studied. Levels of genetic heterozygosity and divergence (in biochemical loci) were estimated in continental and insular populations and in subspecies and closely related species of some groups of amphibians and reptiles.

Now Jeff, just because you DON'T KNOW IT, doesn't mean it isn't true!
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

But what about Fox snakes???? ROFLMAO!!! See, I knew you could do your own work! Good job!

Maybe you should tell the Mariana Mallard it's next to impossible ROFL

Now YOU Prove the Fox snakes are not a result of hybrid speciation.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Sorry fellas, I had no idea that asking what I thought was a simple question would lead to all this. Are there any subjects that can be discussed without leading to a free for all? Maybe I should raise tropical fish instead of keeping snakes. theOLDherper

I think Jeff is playing naive (or maybe he really is) - I don't know. But tropical fish have been proven to speciate through hybridization too hahahaha
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe, I'm sittin back playin professor. See I know there is proof out there but Joe brought up a bad(unprovable)example. If I werent so insistent he wouldnt have changed his arguement and he wouldnt have "won". See, if I were the professor in this case I could then put my name above his in the proof! Joe did the "work" but it was my idea....seriously, this is how academia works. I'm sure he kept trying to think of vertebrate examples, but invertebrate examples are easier to prove. Good job Joe!

I've got a sneaky suspicion there will be another example soon that is more on topic with this forum.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Truth be told: Jeff is kind of a personal friend of mine from years back. I took no offense as he ribs me now and then, so no harm done. Thanks Dad. LOL
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

np

I've been ROLLING over the last few posts to me from you and Rainer...glad things are lightening up on the forum. But my stomach hurts dude.....I meant to email you yesterday but forgot. Catch it later bro.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

In some cases hybrid traits are known to cause reproductive isolation.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Thank you Joe, bear with me, the term 'reproductive isolation' I don't quite grasp. You follows talk way over my head. The biggest terms I ever used were albino, melanistic and abherant. Getting old is hell! theOLDherper

Google is your Friend, Jeff gets all intimidated when answer too many questions.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

UMMMM not sure what you mean there. Species have evolved from reproductive isolation but how does hybridization cause this? Examples? Not man-made. Remember species evolve to exploit niches, what HYBRID occured to take advantage of what niche??

Look Jeff do some research. If you want to spout off answers, at least make them correct. A little correction or two shouldn't hurt your feelings.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I have questions not answers. Like where is your proof that a single hybridization between what(??) 2 species resulted in Fox snakes?? You cant just post the moon to be made of GREEN CHEESE without proof. Not on my watch,lol.

>>I have questions not answers. Like where is your proof that a single hybridization between what(??) 2 species resulted in Fox snakes?? You cant just post the moon to be made of GREEN CHEESE without proof. Not on my watch,lol.

It's going to have to happen more than once, I'm pretty sure.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Male king grabs a female gopher and decides sex is more fun than eating? theOLDherper

What, you've never decided to have sex instead of eat?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Yes, in my youth it caused a few burned dinners. theOLDherper

Also very possible to do both at the same time.....ohhhhh we're in rare form today everyone....LOL!!!!!!
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>Also very possible to do both at the same time.....ohhhhh we're in rare form today everyone....LOL!!!!!!
Whip cream and cherry bikinis are not a meal
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

I wasnt referring to actual FOOD......

*SIGH*
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

"I wasn't referring to actual food."

......I just threw up actual food.

j/k, seriously though, this thread is ridiculous....or at least where it has lead to.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

O.K. guys. I seem to remember what sex was, but I am still wondering if - say an island was created somehow [earthquake,large dam,whatever] and the only snakes were those sibling hybreds. Over generations would this lead to a new species. If this is a stupid question, tell me. Excuse me - I have to punch up a porno site and get a few reminders. Let's see - SEX???????? theOLDherper

Yes, I believe that would be one way to create a new species.

However, there are actual islands where snakes can and do swim back and forth between the mainland...so it is highly doubtful that such a catastrophe would happen and prohibit the original species from reaching that island or whatever.
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getula holbrooki
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getula californae
0.0.1 Lampropeltis getula nigra
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri
2.3.0 Eublapharis macularius macularius
0.0.2 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
0.1.0 Gerrhosaurus major major

Doesnt need to be an island. There are several geological and geographical "islands" that may have already contributed to this occurring. I always look at E. slowinski as a possible E. guttata by E. emoryi relict integrade that has finally made it to species status. Same with goini/meansi or whatever you prefer to call that critter. I always liked Appalachicola king LOL!! I think most of the usual suspects are all at the species or subspecies level, and I am not sure if there are any current genus identified as fairly new relict related hybrids for sure. Very interesting post OLDherper!!!

>>Doesnt need to be an island. There are several geological and geographical "islands" that may have already contributed to this occurring. I always look at E. slowinski as a possible E. guttata by E. emoryi relict integrade that has finally made it to species status. Same with goini/meansi or whatever you prefer to call that critter. I always liked Appalachicola king LOL!! I think most of the usual suspects are all at the species or subspecies level, and I am not sure if there are any current genus identified as fairly new relict related hybrids for sure. Very interesting post OLDherper!!!

I agree with you concerning the Slowenskii.....Same goes for Goini, Outer Banks Kings, Padre Island Milksnakes, Mustang Island Splendida, Webbi, Zonata, Mexicana, etc....

And I agree about geographical "islands"......
Mexicana are a prime example of gene flow cut off by mountain peaks.....and at the same time gene flow remains through the valleys......

With this belief....All of the snake species and subspecies we see today are the results of gene flow from one or more species or subspecies to the other......

Some believe that Ruthveni are the Relict Grandfather to all North American Kingsnakes......Gene flow from South to North from the southernmost Kingsnake there is........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

and lest we not forget zonata as you'd mentioned...particularly herrerae......
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>and lest we not forget zonata as you'd mentioned...particularly herrerae......

Right Jerry....
We know alot about what we keep.....
You have the Zonata thing almost figured out, but we are all still kinda lost with the Mexicana thing......Stoopid laws!

So many "In-betweeners" down there it is a genetic melting pot....
I am sure Joe can elaborate on this in detail...I only hear second-hand information.......And I only live a few hours from their habitat......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

"And I only live a few hours from their habitat"

I wish I had that problem....LOL!

I don't claim to have anyting "figured out" John, but thank you for the warm vote of confidence. I may have a good recipe brewing for successful reproduction and some basics down pat, but that's about it really. It's a labor of love, period.

I just threw in the santa Ana pulchra and Santa Cruz multifasciata pairs together and they're goin' at it pretty well. The "anery" Sierra females don't want anything to do with the males anymore and they're swelling nicely. Now to get to Home Depot and purchase some of that plastic drop-ceiling material that has the small squares in it......my favorite way to incubate as I never liked having eggs directly on the substrate. Maybe I should go take a pic of that one Sierra females' scales we have in question..........I'll try to muster up some energy....
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."