Reptile & Amphibian Forums

has anyone on this forum used the substrate that blueiguana products offer? and if so how was it? I keep most of my cyclura indoors and looking for something other then newspaper. thanks for any suggestions

The BEST substrate for juvenile Iguanids are alfalfa pellets AKA rabbit food. If they eat it accidently [which they will] it won't cause an impaction and is nutritious....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

im not so sure about it being risk free... i think that one of my baby green iggs died from alfa alfa pellets.. i had missed feeding him for two days and the water dish was dry too when i got home after a short trip.. i gave it food and water and he went head first into the waterdish.. after a few min his belly got swollen and it couldnt breath from the look of it.. then he just died.. this was about 10years ago.. and i think the combo of lots of water and dry pellets in its belly killed him..

I have never used pellets again after that...

I have used them with tortoises and Iguanas for 10 plus years with NO problems of any kind. I've NEVER had anything that would purposely eat rabbit pellets...LOL...except rabbits of course...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

that was just maybe some bad luck.. or something else... but thats the only time i have seen something like that.. maybe it would have survived if it was a bit bigger or if the pellets where a bit smaller.. this was a baby and pellets of the largest kind.. i dont even understand how it could have eaten these things..
Glad that you have had no problem with it though.. By the way how is it going with your blue green iguanas? any chance you will export some to Europe?
right now im saving up for a male pure lewisi for my female i´ll get in september.. and some figginsi , delicatissima and fijis.. but im also very intrested in some of your animals TOM.

Hi men, of no direct correlation to your question but it is possible to get Iguana delicatissima in europe? If yes seriously didnt know that. Lewisi, fidjis and fingsi I already knew (and yes defenetly on my list to get one day) they are available true some european breeders but not Iguana delicatissima.

Hi.. yes i know that there is one guy who is breeding them.. very few of them.. and they are very expensive! i dont think you can own them in the USA if you are not a zoo.. think its kinda like the fijis in the states.. or do you live in Europe?

If someone is breeding dellcatisima in europ they should be able to export them to the US. Last time I checked they were cities II and are not listed as ESA??
how much are they and are they northern or southern? are the adults green or gray?
Rob

i read on some iguana protection site that all the delicatissima in the states are own by there home country.. and that the same goes for the offspring they produce or something like that... there cost differ from time to time depends on the numbers and sex he produces.. but they are VERY VERY expensive! at least twice the price of figginsi to my knowlidge.. i dont know who the breeder is.. but a big breeder here in europe told me that he knows him and can get them for me .. this is all i know.. i havent gone after them yet or know much more than i already told you.. waiting untill i have the casch... call fish & wildlife and ask them about it being possible to import first.. i tried to get some rhinos from florida in 2001 when they where hard to find here in Europe.. and fish & wildlife gave us such a hard time so i just gave up... so call them before you think about doing it..
I dont know what kind it is.. the few pics i have seen on the european animals where all young green ones..

Wow 3 times the price of fingsi?! Now thouse are some expensive igs, I mean they are cool but personaly I find lewisi and fingsi much cooler.

I live in Europe thankfully. If they are so few (already seeing that coming) I hope the breeder can find himself some agreements with zoos or other entities to arrange a viable population. Do you know if fingsi igs are on the increase or still very rare? I know at least one person breeding sucessfully this igs but no more then that breeder (its the same breeder that specializes in thouse jaw droping fidji ig morphs and is probably the biggest fidji breeder in Europe).

They wouldn't be rare except most are in the hands of AZA Zoo's who claim they have no space to breed them[Ricord's as well]. Even so they refuse to farm them out to qualified folks in the private sector so they sit there getting older ready to die. I have MORE experience than any Zoo along with a handful of other's. Plus where my facilities are located are better suited than any Zoo to breed Cyclura and I have BETTER enclosures and triple the success or perhaps even more. I'm discriminated against because I'm private. After all Zoo's killed all my lewisi. Am I a big Zoo fan? I would have to say no as they are self centered and do not like to share the limelight and if we had Fiji's in 5 years we'd have hundreds of them because we're motivated by a love for the lizards and capitalism which they are NOT...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

colaris i have to agree with TOM on the ZOO thing.. to my knowlidge zoos worldwide have not had much success at all compared to people like TOM! i can bet that tom and a handfull other breeders have had ten times the success than all the zoos on the planet! so be glad that delicatissimas and fijis are held private here in europe or it would be just like the states.. but look at the numbers of the offspring generated by the species held in private hands way back.. like the Rhino ig.. i will bet you there are TONS more CB animals just in the USA than the wild population in DR.. why shouldent there be the same numbers in figginsi, delicatissima ,fiji, ricirdi, lewisi, pingus.. etc..etc.. private breeders and hobby keepers do more than zoos and temporary rescueproject ever will or can do..
COLARIS where do you live? im in sweden..

I think my question was sligthly bad understood. Tom you have nothing but compreencion and suport from me in your quest to make fingsis, fidji, ricordis and the other species available to the private sector in the states. The reason I said the coment about delicatissimas is because of 2 things: first because as I understed zoos in Europe are much more open minded to private keepers then in the states, actualy its not a odd ocurrence for example privatly owned animals here been loaned to zoos in a breeding effort or as a temporary display, or zoos making extra animals available to be purchased by private individuals. And because if the breeder arranged some kind of relation with zoos he would have acess to a much wide gene pool, which is better then making a higly inbreed population which should only be a last resort. And about fingsis I was refering to the european population of thouse igs, as of now there was a very recent breeding sucess with thouse igs, my question was for Extremosaurus to see if he could tell me if I can still hope for a viable population, if you know many people that have them, are they breeding,etc? Im from Portugal. Laws here regarding the keeping of cites 1 animals are very restrict but I shure hope I will be able to have them someday. I will start with cubans and rhinos...

Colaris i understand.. yes this is better but i still think the gen-pool here in EU is very small however so i dont think it would do much.. specially delicatissima.. i am hoping to breed some rhinos next year.. mine are very blue in color.. i'll give you a very good price specially if you want to breed them.. i have unrelated animals.. and all the cites papers chipped animals with picture ID.. so you do not need any extra permits or paperwork within the EU with animals that are like mine.. zoo animals can have restictitions on them! so look at the papers and ask about a copy and send it in before you buy from a zoo.. and always buy chipped animals! i have also bought 2 lewisi hybrids and one pure lewisi .. i will get them all in september.. they are all 2years old.

I don't think the zoo or the us Fish & Wildlife doubt the fact that the private sector is more successful than most zoos. The reason that Ricord's, Fijis, Pinquis, Figinsi and the rest of cyclura and other iguana species are not allowed to make it into private hands is quite simple. By keeping anymore of these out of private hands the U.S. Fish and Wildlife has mostly eliminated the chance of smuggling into the U.S. There are currently no Pinquis in private hands......so any smuggled would really not be worth anything as you would have not option than to keep them a secret from everyone. We all like to show off are animal's. This goes with all species. The very few lewisi, caymeninsis, ricord's and Figginsi in private hands should be bred to help sustain some sort of genetics in the U.S., yet not by private breeders unless Fish and Wildlife were to overly monitor the animal's in which case would never happen. It all boils down to conservation and your few, yet if more of these animals were allowed into the private sector than smuggling would more than likely become a problem as you could try and say they were from the already private stock.....or run to Belize.

here in EU there are pingus and a few more RARE cyclura in private hands..

You dude are a bugget full of surprises, didnt know AGAIN there are privatly held pinguis in Europe. Shure hope they are doing well.

Yupp Pinguis, ricordi, riley to my knowlidge..and maybe some more? all are in private hands here in EU but still not much success on them yet to my knowlidge.. so there is hope for the future

This is becoming so increasingly interesting that I will ask something Ive been wondering for some time: do you know if there are Conolopus Galapagos land iguanas in Europe? I know people had them 50 years ago, popular both on zoo exibits and on private hands, I think they are all gone by now since people by that time didnt had a clue on how to breed or even apropriatly care for them but what a heck.

I dont know if there is any left.. but who knows? maybe someone has them?? because people here in EU are very private and keep it very secret..but i can tell you this.. that it would not surprise me if there is some left..

A lot of the rare species in EU come from zoos from Eastern states in EU ..like old SOVJET states.. these zoos had much more success on them way back in time than the western European states did.. and still today cyclura is very big hobby in these countries! so maybe galapagos iguanas are there too?? who knows?

I have to disagree with you and to say your awnser is ratter narrow minded. First last time I checked there are many completly legal Cyclura, Ctenosaura and green iguanas in the states, its the rarer species of Cyclura and fidji that are the issue. Actualy IF someone owned any of these rarer species BEFORE they were protect by cites 1, they can still be owned and traded but they would not be allowed to cross state lines without a captive bred wildlife permit (I hope Im not forgetting something) much like indian spooted turtles and radieted tortoises are today. To my compreencion the problem with this igs and the reason people are not breeding buggets full of them like people in Florida and in California with radieted tortoises and indian spooted turtles, is that not enough people in the same state owned enough animals to make a sustainable population or could not prove thouse animals were aquired before the law apeared. Actualy if surplus animals from zoos were allowed in the private sector, smuggling would suddenly make no sence, many of this iguanas are very prolific animals and why risk jail time when the same animal is available just a few blocks ahead? And actually for my understending capture in the wild for pets was one of the least problems Cyclura faced when compared with introduced predators, capture for food (actualy people used to buy thouse and saved them from the stewing pot!) and habitat destruction. Look rhino igs, radieted tortoises, crested geckos, cuban igs, etc, all of thouse are allowed in the private sector and all are plentyfull, triving and their extinction for the time being is out of the question, and ho would think of smuggling them, its non sence. Of corse if you want to avoid ALL possible smuggling you could simply implement the same way of trading animals we have on europe for so many years, here cyclura is microshiped, has paper work and photo id. As simple as that. Its particulary sad with fidji igs, these are owesame lizard to have, perfectly suited to life in captivity, all the fun of green igs without the hazards, they would become easily pet shop staples like geckos and bearded dragons!

>>I have to disagree with you and to say your awnser is ratter narrow minded. First last time I checked there are many completly legal Cyclura, Ctenosaura and green iguanas in the states, its the rarer species of Cyclura and fidji that are the issue. Actualy IF someone owned any of these rarer species BEFORE they were protect by cites 1, they can still be owned and traded but they would not be allowed to cross state lines without a captive bred wildlife permit (I hope Im not forgetting something) much like indian spooted turtles and radieted tortoises are today. To my compreencion the problem with this igs and the reason people are not breeding buggets full of them like people in Florida and in California with radieted tortoises and indian spooted turtles, is that not enough people in the same state owned enough animals to make a sustainable population or could not prove thouse animals were aquired before the law apeared. Actualy if surplus animals from zoos were allowed in the private sector, smuggling would suddenly make no sence, many of this iguanas are very prolific animals and why risk jail time when the same animal is available just a few blocks ahead? And actually for my understending capture in the wild for pets was one of the least problems Cyclura faced when compared with introduced predators, capture for food (actualy people used to buy thouse and saved them from the stewing pot!) and habitat destruction. Look rhino igs, radieted tortoises, crested geckos, cuban igs, etc, all of thouse are allowed in the private sector and all are plentyfull, triving and their extinction for the time being is out of the question, and ho would think of smuggling them, its non sence. Of corse if you want to avoid ALL possible smuggling you could simply implement the same way of trading animals we have on europe for so many years, here cyclura is microshiped, has paper work and photo id. As simple as that. Its particulary sad with fidji igs, these are owesame lizard to have, perfectly suited to life in captivity, all the fun of green igs without the hazards, they would become easily pet shop staples like geckos and bearded dragons!

It's not whether you agree with me or not......that is Fish and Wildlifes reason. If there aren't any then there will know immediately if they were smuggled. Remember, they were all imported sometime. I totally agree with the way europe tracks the animal's. As far as Fijis........research it. Somebody screwed that one up for us.

Hi,

for better understanding for all:
the Fiji iguanas I breed, are different island "morphs" !
These are NOT "colour" morhps and NOT a result selective breeding.
Maybe they will become a differnet subspecie or a specie, like the Tonga/Lau iguana (Brachylophus fasciatus).
More research have to be done in future, to find the truth.
There are visible differences between these Island forms and maybe they are also genetical distinct Species.
Greetings
SJ

So your saying the yellow mutation fidji igs exist in the wild as well?

No, expect the yellows. All others are island forms.
I stopped this "yellow" project, becuase I dont want to breed "colour" morphes". I have only one male left, he is now arround 10 years old.
SJ

Some of the desert lizards I keep that do not readily drink have had impaction problems from rabbit pellets. It seems that some animals get addicted to them and will eat them exclusively even when offered a varied diet. It turns their intestinal tracts into cement. Some animals will never try to ingest them at all. Depends on the individual animal. Just something to be aware of that can happen.

Interesting. I've always used it as an alternative to types of substrate such as dirt, mulch, etc. Newspaper tends to get too wet and nasty too quick especially with the numbers I sometimes have right after hatching season. In all the years I've used it I've never had anything even try to eat it but I could see where there could be a problem if they deliberately tried to eat it..In that case I would say I dont know of anything foolproof and I will continue to use it here. If I ever see anything seek it out to eat I'll remove it just in case but so far that hasn't happened here...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yupp its this combination! a bunch of pellets and drinking a lot at the same time that killes them.. it got swollen so fast and so much.. maybe the stomach bursts ? or maybe it just pushes up against the lungs making it impossible to breath.. or both?

This is all news to me, my 4.5 year old eats the ZooMed Pellets (in form identical to alfalfa pellets)and won't take them moist, only dry. He always drinks a lot in proportion to what he eats. He has been on this diet for the better part of two years. I always keep a very close eye on his feces and urine: he hasn't had a dry fecal yet, always plenty of urine so I am confident that he is not getting dehydrated- and he is growing very fast. It is true that his feces did harden on this diet, but hardly little rocks, only firm. So much nicer than the moosh I have seen some cyclura lay down, especially those on a hardcore veggie diet.

My big ones eat DRY Mazuri Tortoise Chow again with stools like wild Cyclura but NO problems. At times I've fed dry Mazuri Iguana Chow to neonates with same positive results...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

the form maybe the same.. but the fibers arent..if "iguana pellets" get wet they fall apart and look gelly like (small fibers) and it does not swell much.. the alfa alfa also falls apart but almost look like chopped dried grass that is wet.. swelling to several times the original size.. very large fibers and small... so its not the same thing.. Although i have to say that this can depend on the manufacturer..and may differ.. your alfa alfa pellets maybe totally safe.. but it is not the same kind i use here in Sweden.. who knows? but im not taking that risk again.. at least never with small animals..
0-2 years use paper.. 2years and up use whatever else you want.. then its no risk in my mind that a healthy animal would die.
I use fine sand and astroturf.. never had a problem.

The consistency of the 2 are very different. The rabbit pellets are much more dense. I think the key is to have water readily available and they have to drink it(Which a lot of chuckwallas will not readily do.). I think eating the rabbit pellets without the water just turns their intestinal tract to cement. This is especially true of smaller animals. This is probably not a problem if only a few are accidentally ingested. I am not sure about the expansion in the gut causing internal damage I have not had anything like that happen. I have had no problems feeding Mazuri tort or ig chow(not sure how we went from rabbit pellets as a substrate to feeding iguana chow). I only have had problems using rabbit pellets as a substrate. Maybe the chuckwallas eat the rabbit pellets more readily than the iguanas???

I took my 30"-36" albino Iguana's for a checkup to Douglas Mader M.D. and he found sand in their stomach's that if left unchecked would have caused an impaction. Now ALL my lizards outside live on rocks the size of an egg. I avoid sand like the plauge because of this. On subsequent radiograph's EVERY single lizard had a gutload of sand that we looked at. My experience with sand has NOT BEEN A GOOD ONE....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

We have found sand in the gut of every fresh wildcaught chuckwalla that we have had x-rayed. I know they pass it becuase I keep fresh wild caughts on paper and sand ends up in the cage from the feces. I keep all my acclimated chucks on play sand and have never had a problem. I have animals that are 15-20 years old. I guess what ever works for you! LOL. I talked with a good friend of mine in AZ this morning. He breeds a lot of ctenos and he uses rabbit pellets on the babies and has never had a problem so go figure. Anyway maybe just the different habitats that these guys live in make them able to deal with certain things others cannot.

yupp these pellets are very different..I think that desert lizards may like to eat pellets more than green iggs... i have only had this problem one time.. and that whas the baby green iguana.. i have never seen larger iguanas eat it.. they are not as intrested in eating new things as the babies i think..
I also think that desert iguanas may be more adapted to having sand in the gut since they live on the ground maybe? this may be a much bigger issue for green iggs than chucks or cyclura..
Tom i have never had that problem with sand.. but i will check it out with my vet.. just in case.. so thanks for the tip!

My experience with alfafa pellets has not been a positive one, not because fortunatly they are by any means dangerous but because they are not practical at all. As soon as the igs defecate or spill water on it, the liquids makes the pellets swollen and become moist and once that is done its only a matter of like a day untill that thing starts both to smell bad and to grow mold on it. If it is used it has to be replaced VERY frequently. News paper all the way.

Yupp i have had that problem too!

When I used to keep a group of S.hispidis, they were the only igs that I fed greens to because they didnt drink water. Everyone else ZooMed dry pellets. With these and rabbit pellets, water is a must. I keep my ctenos and young cyclura on decomposed granite outdoors in the summer and on wire indoors in the winter. So far, never any impaction problems, but they eat out of high bowls. If the lizards are big enough, they will pass any sand or small gravel. As far as babies go, nothing is better or safer than butcher paper or thin corrugated cardboard paper. Just clean it regularly you lazy bastards - lol!

i keep my adults on sand because when i went to mona island yrs ago they were living on sand so i figured it was somewhat safe. ive seen them eat it many times like if they knock out a piece of banana it gets sand on it and they eat it. i was never concerned till now. seems like no substrate is safe and newspapers are the worst.