Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can anyone post a picture of webbi? I have been trying to find my old slides to try and remember why I did't believe that the two I found in '72 and '73 were not sinaloae or nelsoni. Thanks. theOLDherper

>>Can anyone post a picture of webbi? I have been trying to find my old slides to try and remember why I did't believe that the two I found in '72 and '73 were not sinaloae or nelsoni. Thanks. theOLDherper

Check out this link Peter....

http://www.sierraherps.com/gallery/webbi/Animals/index.html
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Can anyone post a picture of webbi? I have been trying to find my old slides to try and remember why I did't believe that the two I found in '72 and '73 were not sinaloae or nelsoni. Thanks. theOLDherper

I would like to add.....
They are not Triangulum......
They are Lampropeltis webbi....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Thank you. Too bad I didn't know what I had back then. I hunted that area from'72 thru '75. Fell in love with little town of El Palmito - even took my family there in '73. Didn't have any trouble with marijuana growers until '75. never went back. fantastic area. theOLDherper

OK.....call me stupid...out of the loop.....???...I am in here everyday...usually being ignored to death...LOL...

WTH is a L.webbi?......looks like one of the mexicanna ssp to me........

are we going to reclassify a new species???...(or did)...

Thanxxx.....

...go back now...the maryjane growers are here in the US.....
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......JY

it's closest living relatives are pyromelana, and geographically is a stones throw from greeri.

If they can the DNA sorted out it could very well be another example of hybrid speciation between pyro and greeri (no really!).
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>it's closest living relatives are pyromelana, and geographically is a stones throw from greeri.
>>
>>If they can the DNA sorted out it could very well be another example of hybrid speciation between pyro and greeri (no really!).

They definitely have the Pyro look to them as well as Knoblochi and some Ruthveni too.....It has always been hard to imagine it has greeri in it........LOL

Looks like another example of the south to north gene flow at work.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>They definitely have the Pyro look to them as well as Knoblochi and some Ruthveni too.....It has always been hard to imagine it has greeri in it........LOL

It's harder for me to imagine they don't. I'm surprised you don't see it. From Bryson's abstract "This species
appears to be closely related to Lampropeltis pyromelana and Lampropeltis mexicana".
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>It's harder for me to imagine they don't. I'm surprised you don't see it. From Bryson's abstract "This species
>>appears to be closely related to Lampropeltis pyromelana and Lampropeltis mexicana".

After looking at a few more pics I see some greeri influence but the "milk snake" look seems to be more Pyro / Knoblochi to me....

You've seen WAY more Greeri than I. Plus I have never seen a wild Mexicana in person so these are just speculations that I have given all the captive bred Mexican Kingsnakes I have seen...

While I have some of your attention.....
What do you think these are?

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

just a guess, something with a thayeri in it too.

crap John there's no way you can play that game with captive creations. Wild caught snakes with locality at least you have a place to start.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>just a guess, something with a thayeri in it too.
>>
>>crap John there's no way you can play that game with captive creations. Wild caught snakes with locality at least you have a place to start.

You are right...there is no way we can play that game with these because I still don't know what they are.....

They were sold as pure line bred (for decades) greeri......
I got them from a Robert Hunkapillar back 10 years ago.....
I don't have them anymmore, but I still don't know what they were actually.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Some real purrdy snakes
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

they are either thayeri ....and /or the first one may...I say may,...have some other triangulum in it.......could be pure thayeri to me....but I see no greeri in those two.......
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......JY

OK...I went back.....

the live one ....hmmmm....banded....head...hmmm....could be thayeri,cross,or ruthveni-ish.....

the DOR one...poor thing...still looks mex mex to me....I went and checked out the mex mex pics...all different patterned...from small saddle to banded....looks ...familiar....the banded one........hmmm...

...Mexico....still a place to herp and wonder.....

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......JY

>>...Mexico....still a place to herp and wonder.....

This is where you hit the nail on the head.....
There are so many inbetweeners in Mexico......
And lots of area of gene flow between species and subspecies......

A Taxonomic nightmare.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>the live one ....hmmmm....banded....head...hmmm....could be thayeri,cross,or ruthveni-ish.....

Here you summed up every Mexican Kingsnake there are......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

LOL......I didn't try it....it was just mentioned they were pyro and greeri....I see no pyro and greeri maybe...mex mex moreso for me...???.....I know head patterns don't make much help here......maybe they are all thayeri........???LOL...

........all we can do is work with what we have here in the US I guess.........

....where is George Jung when you need him.....???

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......JY

Joe, You threw that word in there - hybred. When I found the small DOR it was aout the same time I was puzzleling over the king/gopher mentioned earlier. Since it was found in the Sinaloae - Nelsoni range but looked so much different I played with the idea that it was more than an abherant and possibly a hybred, but with what? Then the following year I caught the second one I was completely baffled. I think I said earlier that it went to the S.D. Zoo, but thinking back I believe I sent it to a friend in England who was much more educated than I was. theOLDherper

I think you should try and track down that snake and get tissue samples if possible..if deceased, is it in a freezer somewhere?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>I think you should try and track down that snake and get tissue samples if possible..if deceased, is it in a freezer somewhere?

I agree....
I only wished there was at least one alive pair in captivity.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Mark, I have been trying to locate my old friend in England who was with me on that trip to El Palmito but so far no luck. I will also try find out if the DOR one is in the pickle collection at the Santa Barbara museum of Natural History. By the way, who is Dorothy and what's taking so long? Maybe none of my business.-----theOLDherper--'Pete'

you must've see The Wizard of Oz...how many times???
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>go back now...the maryjane growers are here in the US ------ No way, the last I heard there was travelers advisory to stay out of that area. My girlfriends nephew was murdered in TJ last week so I will stay on this side of the line.

....growers are said to be here on this side of the line...no border to cross to sell....

I guess they still have a good farm coop going on in old Mexico also......

easy to prove what they are......10 of us go down and find a pair for each of us???.....

.I gotta go back to the pics.....I thought thayeri or mex mex......I used to have a thayeri with oddly shaped saddles.....weird MSP thayeri.......(got it's tongue stuck in a deli cup hole and ripped one fork off ,stopped eating and died)..

.......I didn't see the pyro in them at all.....mexicanna group only......hmmmm...I missed something.....

.......road trip, DNA , .......
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......JY