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Okay, I hope I'm not putting my ignorance on display here but I would like to know the general concensus regarding the Lesser complex. I should preface this by saying that I have NOT seen all of these in person and I am asking all of this out of curiosity.
My understanding is that you can put any of these morphs together with any other or itself to create a Blue-eyed Leucistic: Butter, Lesser, Mojave, Phantom (any others?). My question has two parts, first, is it generally believed that these are alleles of the same gene?
Secondly, if you breed a BEL (say a Butter/Lesser for example)to a normal you should get Butters & Lessers (& normals)but can they be positively identified as one or the other? In other words, do the alleles maintain their unique character?

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if it has been conclusively shown that they are all in fact unique traits or merely the same gene filtered and influenced by the various wild lines from which they originated.

Thanks for your thoughts,
John

Mocha, Vin Russo Het White Diamond , Mystic, and Special/Crystal gene are also alleles from the Lesser Complex..

When any of the Supers breeds out the Super can't make a normal at all, it either throws one copy or the other NOT BOTH at the same time ..

Example NORMAL X Mystic Potion (Mojo x Mystic as it's Super form) = 50% Mojo's
50% Mystics
EVERY TIME

If you breed the Super to another Blue Eyed complex member it will then allow you to line up and make Supers that way, like this..

Mystic Potion x Mystic = Mystic Potion, Mojave , Mystic , Super Mystic .
In this case the Potion was made from one copy of Mojave from the Potion side and one copy of Mystic only possible via the Mystic parent. The Super Mystic obviously comes from Mystic x Mystic where the Potion threw it's Mystic gene and the Mystic parent also threw it's copy of Mystic to line up the Super.. The reg Mojave and reg Mystic are made when the Mystic parent threw the normal side on her Mystic allele as remember she is only a Het so 50% of the time she throw just Normal at the Mystic allele when that happens the Mystic Potion still will either throw one copy of Mystic or one copy of Mojave , again the Super always makes something NEVER a NORMAL..

Anthony McCain

When I said EVERY TIME that is just in theory anyway. My point was you can't ever make a Normal using the Supers . That goes for Supers that are the same gene (Lesser Lesser, Mojo Mojo, Mystic Mystic ..etc) BUT it also applies to the Supers that are Alleles involving 2 seperate genes that are basically slightly different versions of the same gene (Mystic Mojave, Lesser Mojave , Russo Mojave, Special Mojave/aka Crystal, etc). Even in these cases you won't make Normals from them , either one morph or the other is thrown so you always make a single copy of one morph or the other each time from all these types of Supers.

Anthony McCain

Sorry, that was a slip on my part. I realized after I wrote it that a super can't make a normal. That was totally beside the point though.
My basic question is can the different allelic traits be seperated visually in a mixed clutch? In the example you gave of a Mystic potion to a normal the result would be 50% mojave and 50% Mystic, can each hatchling be catagorized as one or the other?
If so this would prove that they are alleles of the same gene and maintain their distinct character. As opposed to being the exact same gene being influenced by the other characteristics of the animal(light, dark, blushed, high yellow etc.).

John

There can be a bunch of different alleles at a single locus that code for similar but different things. For instance, the Butter/Lesser etc complex you mentioned. Those genes (I believe) are allelic. They are similarly coding proteins at or near the same locus on the same chromosome. This doesn't mean the animal that receives one copy or the other are the same morph, it just means it received one of the many alleles that alter that particular trait. So a Butter/Lesser Super would produce all young that are either Lessers or Butters and (theoretically) you would be able to visually sort out which ones received which allele.

Does that answer your question?
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Yes.
I understand what alleles are and I understand how co-doms work.

I just wanted to know if the 'complex' varieties can be distinguished and if they have all been proven unique and distinct?

I don't have any experience with them and would like to acquire one or more but the variety of BP morphs is mind-boggling. Seems like each breeder has named their own line but to my eye the morphs look very similar and affect the same thing.

Thanks,
John

There may be some separately named alleles of this complex that are really just different lines of the same allele. Butter and lesser as one case. Probably phantom and mystic are another. Outside of those two pairs it sounds like the remainder have distinct looks that show up in predictable ways being consistent with each being a truly different mutations of the same gene. All the alleles I can think of right now are:

Lesser/Butter
Mojave
Phantom/Mystic
Mocha
Vin Russo
Special
Hidden

I think there are some other unnamed lines that might be distinct or the same as one of those.

Also, some of the combos aren't white like:

Mystic Potion (MysticMojave)
Platy (LesserHidden)
Crystal (MojaveSpecial)
Homozygous (aka "super" Mystic or Phantom)
Homozygous Hidden (apparently looks as normal as the het Hidden combined with the normal version of this complex).

qoute:
If so this would prove that they are alleles of the same gene and maintain their distinct character. As opposed to being the exact same gene being influenced by the other characteristics of the animal(light, dark, blushed, high yellow etc.).

I think I get what you are asking here. They aren't the same gene, for example no matter how many different normal females you are never going to produce a lesser in a mojave x normal clutch.
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-Jeff
http://jefflumanreptiles.com

Thanks Randy and Jeff!

That was exactly what I was getting at. Just a little difficult to word it correctly I guess.

Thanks,
John

In the example you gave of a Mystic potion to a normal the result would be 50% mojave and 50% Mystic, can each hatchling be catagorized as one or the other?

A mystic is a different gene than a mojave or a lesser.
It's just that they reside on the same allele.

It's like the eye color. Blue, Green or Brown, all on the same allele, but different genes.

Meaning that you CAN'T hatch a mojave by breeding a mystic to a normal. You will only have mystic and normals. Same goes for all the other genes. Or for the spector and YB in the ivory and super stripe complex.

Well, the mystic gene can always mutate and transform into a mojave, but that's nearly unlikely. But at some point in the wild, a normal gene muted and became a mojave or lesser or mystic, so you never know.
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love this world, don't hate it.

True that , BUT I never said you would hatch a Mojave out of a Mystic x Normal clutch either.. What I said is the 2 morphs DO look enough alike that it can be hard to tell the difference between them as clutchmates. I have bred Mystic to Mojave several times already and you can have REALLY DARK MOJAVES that look as much like Mystics as they do ugly Mojaves and I also think you can have Mystics that are so light that they look like Mojaves BUT THEY ARE NOT they are just light Mystics instead. They are 2 different Morphs Trust me I know , the Mystic was my project remember! Why are they different morphs or a variation of the same gene actually because the Supers are different looking so they must be different morphs that is why. BUT as single genes some of this stuff is VERY MUCH the same looking , so much so that people may end up having to keep stuff to raise up and breed out to see what kind of Super it makes. IF a dark one with low side blushing ends up making a Potion instead of a Super Mystic then that would indicate it's actually just a dark ,ugly Mojave and not a Mystic at all , why because if it was a Mystic instead you would have made a Super Mystic (assuming you hit a Super so you proved it)..

So no a Mojave isn't going to hatch out of a Mystic clutch or a lesser from a Mojave clutch that is true, can't happen, different genes each are for sure.. BUT what some of you are forgetting is that these snakes are not born with labels in their mouths and YES it is possible that some of the VERY similiar stuff will LOOK about identical again they can't be genetically BUT the can be visually that is the point I was trying to make ..

Why don't you ask someone else that's seen babies from say a Mystic x Mojave breeding and I think you'll find out that every now and then you get a clutch where they all look like peas in a pod (maybe not at 500 grms BUT they aren't born at 500 grms are they) and it's not easy to tell the 2 similiar genes apart all the time. If you breed a Super Light Mystic to a average or maybe even slightly darker than average Mojave just for example it's VERY possible to make Dark Mojaves that to most people would look as much like a classic Mystic, they still would be Mojaves in the end as they don't change genetically . BUT VISUALLY sure would look close enough to a Mystic that people may have a ?? on that tub until they breed it out to know later.

It will be interesting to see if the Mystic Potion makes things even more complicated in that fashion or not. I personally think it easily could make it tough to say in a few cases in a clutch if you made a mystic or a mojave as I agree it must be one or the other they aren't the same genetically. The problem again is that a really dark Mojave sure can "look" visually just like a average Mystic ( it still is a Mojave just isn't obvious to tell) and a very light Mystic sure could be mistaken for a average Mojave just the same (still is a Mystic but looks like both visually at least at birth, with age it should become easier to tell which you have )! People have seen this already folks , this isn't just what I think , it's happened other than here already.

So it's not a simple answer all the time! The genes are the genes and are seperate on paper genetically but like I said you can have problems VISUALLY telling what you have for sure in the case of the Mystic and Mojave stuff as that's happened already! Others have had a baby or two that are questionable ( example : dark Mojave or pretty Mystic with lighter than usually color , looks to be way dark for a Mojo yet to light for a Mystic? ) and will just keep it till it's more obvious or they will just breed it out later so it just gets held back and bred out later, no big deal, you find out LATER what it is based on it's future Super offspring . THAT is the BEST way to say which it is any day of the week anyhow , shows me the Super! Make a Potion with it and you have Mojave in there , make a Super Mystic then it was not a Mojave at any time regardless of what it looked to be visually..

Anthony McCain

I wasn't denying anything you said.

I totally agree, some morph could look quite the same. It's even worst on the case of allele genes.

I have even seen lesser that look like mojave and the inverse. Or a butter het ghost, that I was sure was a butter pastel. So nothing impossible....
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love this world, don't hate it.

Just for the record I will say that it will prove to be easier to tell apart some of these members than it will others , it won't always be cut and dry .

Lessers and Mojaves or say Lessers and Mystics will be something that even a 6 yr old kid could correctly pick out in a clutch..

But Mystics and Mojaves or Mystics and say Mochas like the Sutherlands line look like would be tough to tell at times and would need to be bred out in some cases to prove which one it was. I also wonder if a Het White Diamond and a Special (Crystal Het) might be the same problem , some of these morphs look so much alike even the best of the best can't say instantly what is in the clutch if the 2 base genes are that much alike in looks already..

So to answer your question in my opinion GENERALLY you'll be able to tell with 2 different genes in the blue eyed complex but when you pair up VERY similiar alleles you may be scratching your head until they are adults and it's more obvious what you have based on the adult colors (example Mystic adults are darker than Mojave adults BUT the patterns could be about identical really , bellies alike and blushing alike as well) or until you breed them all the way out 2 tell!

It's a point very much worth mentioning and it will cause some frustrations down the road for people for sure in those cases!

Anthony McCain