Reptile & Amphibian Forums

With all the mDNA talk and good active posts I want to throw out this idea. About 10 years ago I kept several large LTE and attempted the LTTxLTE breeding several times without success. I used mostly the LTT available up here in Mass, but a few from the VA mountain area. I also had MD and NC coastals to use for trickery. I never thought much about it at the time because I really wasnt interested in the cross babies and I had such a crazy breeding season I was ordering feeder skinks by the 100 lot, but I digress.
The mating behavior, or lack of it, between many of these closely related ssp was puzzling. Many times their introductions were almost a violent reaction...leading me to think of pheremones. What if females were capable of multiple pheremone types depending on climate, breeding history, prey availability or whatever???
Now I know this is overly simlplistic, and we can argue that it takes GENES to produce the pheremones. It opens up a whole new can of worms doesnt it? Thoughts?

Well I tend to have a much more aggressive sexual rendezvous after a good steak, fava beans, and a nice chianti........(*slurp, slurp, slurp, slurp*)

For me it's strictly in the genes I think, but her Clinique Happy was all the pheromone I could stand.........

Can you hear the screaming of the lambs now Clarice...?
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Put the lotion in the basket there Kruse! I'm not your wife, I wont ask twice,lol.

Hey Jeff,

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at, but there's no doubt that pheromones are involved in the mating routine and it seems probable that they're fairly species-specific. Totally anecdotal ramblings: I can recall times in the past when I've been nailed and wrapped by otherwise well-mannered kings, only to have that "oh duh" moment a minute later when I realized I'd just handled another snake. On the other hand, I was moving some campbelli around the other day and after (stupidly) moving the girls first, just about every male I handled latched on amorously to my arm or at least seemed to be thinking about it. Granted bites can vary tremendously and indeed our human interpretation of what those bites mean (i.e. defensive, feeding, courting, etc.) are completely subjective, I'd be inclined to believe our snakes can "smell" some differences in species or subspecies.
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http://www.waffahousereptiles.com

We have had many different threads on ssp evolution in NA and even other milk ssp.. Being such a widely successful species I was suggesting something different. I know milks from different areas use different pheremones, some more general and some more particular. My theory is that along these intergrade zones that maybe its possible that females may secrete one type given climatic/environmental stimulus A and another, B, if differing conditions exist. This could account for genetic drift, ssp. integration and non-integration even within integration zones. This is all anecdotal for now, but in theory it should be measurable. And it could also account for more rapid changes than normal. Get it? I know I'm just skimming the surface here, but rather than isolation, cohesion, isolation again....it could account for everything from individual populations to ssp. definition. Right??

I think I get what you're saying..

As a simple example, if a female syspila along an intergradation zone were subject to one set of variables (say, prolonged starvation and cooler temperatures), then perhaps she would would secrete a unique set of pheromones that are more attractive to male LTTs than other syspila since LTTs occupy a generally cooler geographic range. By intergrading in this way, she would theoretically confer some protective effect on her offspring based on the environmental conditions she had been subject to.

Is that the gist of what you're proposing?
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http://www.waffahousereptiles.com

There is a huge range of possiblities. Maybe it could have originated with LTEs, in high density times producing a specific pheremone and in "odd" times a more general one to accomodate the most number of potential partners. Of course each of the offspring could have the same adjustment ability. It doesnt completely account everything, it would make sense that in order to mimic pheremones genes would have to be at work...but maybe not!

Jeff, I can see it being possible that climate could affect the effectiveness of a phermone in terms of being able to attract a mate of same species, but I can't wrap my head around it affecting the attraction of a different species, albeit similar. With humans, I would bet climate affects our sweat, oil secretion, etc., and hence "odor". A person may unconsciously be attracted to another persons odor in one climate, but repulsed by that same persons natural odor in another climate. But I can't see it attracting other species to any significant degree. If your theory is true, then it kind of breaks down the meaning of subspecies, and places them into more of a geographical variant category. Good stuff and thought provoking for sure!!

You are a female LTE/LT"T"/LTT in the intergrade zone. You dont travel far, and you already have a combo of genes within you..blueprints are there. You only go to the local bar and its only your relatives, LMAO. On a regular night you go home with your brother, on a off night you go home with your cousin.
In a good year for rodents you might favor a LTT mate, in a good year for lizards you might favor a LTE mate. You put out the proper pheremone based on the environmental conditions you will significantly increase the survivability of your offspring. This would also account for quicker gene transferal as well as pockets of "pure" ssp within the intergrade zone! Right??

OK, I agree with that. Mainly because your example uses an integrade female with genes from two or more subspecies. Based on that, I can see where she may actually have the ability to alter her phermones to attract the appropriate mate regardess of which subspecies based on climatic/food conditions. I just don't see how a "pure" subspecies of female would or could alter her phermones to attract a different subspecies of male to ensure survivability of offspring given the current conditions. A L.t.e. female altering her phermones to attract a L.t.t. male?

You answered your own question. These are the same species, the altering of 2 ssp, no matter how distant, could retain this gene. They may have been genetically/physically/or otherwise isolated but retain the same genes. There is so much there that we dont SEE(!!)and genetics are responsible for alot of it. But only in certain areas are the results EXPRESSED. To me, this explains more than genetic drift.