Reptile & Amphibian Forums

(long) More information - - -

http://professionalaviculture.blogspot.com
(See the blogspot for hyperlinks to much of this information)

Information is posted on the department’s website for public review at http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/documents/ProposedImportationrule2010.htm

REXANO also has information posted on their New Mexico Page

* * * * UPDATE * * * *

I have gone over the 61 page draft of Importation species -especially for birds in the pet trade. The list is inaccurate and contains many errors. For instance CITES I birds are listed as CITES II and placed in category III and CITES II birds are often placed in Category IV. I imagine there are errors made in the listing for mammals, fish, herps, etc. If so, the Commission needs to be aware of this.

I made some notes in brackets - thinking out loud about points we can make in our letters.

COMMISSION MEETING AGENDA BRIEFING
Meeting Date: June 3, 2010 Agenda Item Number: 17

Agenda Title: Importation of Live Non-Domestic Animals, Birds and Fish (19.35.7 NMAC), and Game and Fish Licenses/Permits (19.30.9 NMAC).

1) Summary of Agenda Item: The Department will present draft rule amendments for Importation of Non-domestic animals (19.35.7 NMAC) and Game and Fish Licenses/Permits (19.30.9 NMAC). The Department has being working on these amendments and seeking public input since May 3, 2007. This is an update only item for the commission, with the Department proposing to seek final action at the July 2010 commission meeting. The Department is recommending repealing the current rule because of extensive changes. The following is a highlight of importation changes the new rule includes: • Creates a section that defines the Director’s authority to:

[Who is on the Director's team? Who advises him about species information, if anyone? Usually these types of matters are governed by various people - including those who are in the pet trade, "exotic" animal owners and those who captive breed such animals]

1. Designate domesticated animals where no importation permit is required from the Department.

[I have asked Letitia Lee what process is involved to remove animals from the current draft list. As of today, I have not yet received a reply. Good arguments can be made regarding which domestic animals do not require an importation permit - such as those commonly in the pet trade and which have been captive bred for several generations. They list a number of CITES species - but CITES pertains to international trade. Birds in the pet trade may be threatened, endangered and/or invasive pest species in their NATIVE countries but the information does not apply to captive bred birds in the USA. Furthermore, the WBCA - Wild Bird Conservation Act - was passed in 1992 and birds are no longer imported from other countries for the pet trade.]

2. Development a species importation list (minimum of 4 groups) including conditions under which an animal may be imported into the state.

[This list is inaccurate. Quaker parakeets have been listed as invasive and state prohibited when they currently are not. Cockatiels are listed as CITES II, but they are not on CITES. Permits will be required for them. See a copy of the $15.00 Importation Permit Application for Commercial Pet Stores and the $25.00 Importation Permit Application for Non-Game - Exotic or Wildlife Held as Pets.]

3. Determine eligibility requirements for future importation, should anyone violate the provisions of importation, including proposing corrective measures

[NM appears to be creating criminal offenses for possible paperwork errors. This brings us back to their draft list which is inaccurate.]

4.Create administrative fees up to $500 (COC) for failure to comply with importation (for admin review, inspections, updating files, etc)

[Fees collected are self perpetuating and will justify and provide incentive to "uncover" crimes. The money will not be used to advance conservation of species or aid in captive breeding programs.]
5. Designate an individual as a qualified expert

[What criteria will they use? How can we determine if they are qualified to designate someone as an expert?]

6. Determine all forms and applications

7. Determine all notices and postings

8. Determine an additional fee up to $25 for anyone requesting their application be expedited.

[How many people and offices will be involved in issuing permit applications? Will we see problems caused by bureaucratic red tape and paperwork errors?]
• Allows for a Director’s review (1st layer of appeal) prior to an appeal to the commission.

[This is a conflict of interest. Shouldn't a non-biased mediator be allowed to look at these appeals?]
• Expands current intrastate movement for animal health emergency (beyond cervids/Game Parks)

[This is currently under the jurisdiction of APHIS]

• Creates series of administrative restrictions to compliment [sic] criminal violations

[Why are both necessary? Paperwork errors can make innocent people criminals in certain situations.]

• Creates additional health and facility allowances

[I am not sure what this means]

• Minor changes to fisheries (fee structure and ornamental fish)

• Creates a hold harmless/immunity provision requirement

• Creates more definitions, including a dangerous animal definition for predatory or venomous animals

[Many county and local ordinances cover such matters]

• Creates warning notices requirements for dangerous animals

[This could be done through a state law]

• Adds different importation fees relating to number of animals to be imported

[What are these fees? Where can we find them?]

A variety of other changes are also being proposed for amendment.

2) Strategic Plan References & Possible Impacts of Agenda Item: Objective 8: That through 2014 hunting and fishing opportunities are maintained through prevention and control of wildlife diseases.

Strategy 8.1: Detect, monitor, manage, and prevent the spread of wildlife diseases through coordination with the New Mexico Department of Health, the New Mexico Livestock Board, the New Mexico Department of Agriculture, USDA Animal Plant and Health Inspection Service, USDA Wildlife Services, and USDA Veterinary Services and other appropriate agencies.

[There is already a system in place to monitor diseases. Why should Law Enforcement get involved with this process unless they are specifically asked to do so?]

Action Plan: 8.1.1 Adopt and enforce rules as required by statute to control, eradicate, or prevent the spread of a contagious disease, pest or parasite, to or among game animals.

8.1.5 Manage the importation of protected species of live animals, birds, or fish into New Mexico.

The Department continues to deal with issues and concerns relating to disease, hybridization and predation from free-ranging and captive species of wild animals. The current proposals for the importation rule upholds protective measures while seeking some flexibility in allowing people to comply with specific importation requirements.

[As stakeholders who may or may not own animals related to possible problems referenced above, we need to ask what problems New Mexico has had or is having. What triggered this part of the rule?]

3) Estimated Distribution, Abundance, Habitat Requirements, Breeding Habits and Economic Values (§17-1-26, NMSA, 1978) of Species if Applicable: A main emphasis in the importation rule is to protect New Mexico from introduction of infectious/contagious diseases, crossbreeding and displacement by non-desirable species. This emphasis is to insure that managed species abundance, habitats and economic value are not negatively affected by imported animals.

[I believe that this section may be primarily directed towards fish and herps. I do not have the in depth knowledge to address these concerns, but you and your groups need to make your voices heard.]

4) Considerations Regarding Duplications and /or Conflicts with Existing Rules or Statutes: State laws require the Commission to establish rules to control and prevent disease outbreaks (17-1-14.B.15 NMSA 1978), and emphasizes importation permitting is in place to protect [the State] against importation of undesirable species and the introduction of infectious or contagious diseases (17-3-32 NMSA 1978).

[I haven't had a chance to compile a list of all the rules and statutes that cover any real or possible threats]
5) Description and Summary of Public Involvement Process and Results: The Department has held public meetings since April 2007 to seek comments on rule amendments for importation. Meetings have been held in Albuquerque, Farmington, Las Cruces, Roswell and Santa Fe. The Department has also posted this rule on its website and is still taking comments.

[Shouldn't these comments be published and made public? I have not found any to date, but will request them]
6) Suggested Motion: This is a discussion item. No motion is requested, unless Commission discretion indicates that specific direction through a motion is warranted.

(printed as is)
M I N U T E S
NEW MEXICO STATE GAME COMMISSION
Northern New Mexico Community College
921 Paseo de Oñate (Española Campus – Rm. # AD101-102)
Española, NM 87532
May 3, 2007

AGENDA ITEM NO. 18: Importation of Live Non-Domestic Animals, Birds and Fish (19.35.7, NMAC) and Game and Fish Licenses/Permits (19.30.9, NMAC).

Presented by Pat Snyder – This will be on the opening up the rule on the importation of live non-domestic animals, birds, and fish and the game and fish license and permits, so it will be Rules 19.35.7 and 19.30.9, NMAC. [Be sure and read this link]

Basically, the Department does have the authority to protect the state’s wildlife from undesirable species and make it a misdemeanor to import any live animals without first obtaining a permit, Section 17-3-32, NMSA, 1978. Section 17-12-6, NMSA, 1978, allows the Commission to set up whatever rules it deems necessary for the protection of that.

The Importation Rule, 19.35, NMAC, basically the scope is to any person desiring to bring into the state wildlife species and the objective is to provide consistent criteria for the importation of wildlife. The things we’re looking at now is more of the non-game animals, i.e., the wild by nature pets, and Section 19.35.7.13, NMAC, says that any applicant bringing in a live, non-game wildlife, they have to submit a confinement plan, a certificate from a veterinarian showing that that animal is disease free, proof of the pertinent county/city that possession of that critter is allowed, and copies of any federal permits that are required, and if it is a venomous reptile, that it be de-venomized.

Upon receipt of that application we will allow the import only if it doesn’t compete with native wildlife, does not hypertize [sic] with other New Mexico native species, conflict with management, does not pose a threat to human health or livestock, all federal permits have been obtained, adequate public comment, and it doesn’t pose a threat of immediate disease. Some of the problems we’ve had with some of the others, this is a newspaper article from Las Cruces where a pet shop owner had brought in some Egyptian cobras, they weren’t imported, they weren’t devenomized in Florida. This is another example where someone had an alligator as a baby, it grew too big and he couldn’t afford to feed it anymore so he let it loose and it came in contact with the public and someone else came across it and I believe there was another situation like this in Texas along the Rio Grande where an alligator was found. Some of the other concerns we have are diseases, Chronic Wasting Disease, Monkey Pox, Avian flu [major outbreaks have been in foreign countries, not ours], and the other thing we’re looking at is the cost.

We’re going to charge people for bringing in non-game animals. We’re looking at $25 per animal and what we’re looking for is there are a lot of people who don’t know these regulations exist so currently we’re working with the pet industry informing them of what the regulations are because we realize wild pets [The pets are captive bred] are being imported and probably a large number of these imports are not all legal [???] so we’re trying to facilitate with the pet industry [I just recently was informed of this proposed rule], educate people where necessary [and vice versa]. Over the last several weeks we’ve had meetings in Roswell, Las Cruces, Santa Fe, and Albuquerque and we’re going to have 1 in Farmington next week. Each state has their own things and they can’t possess or import rattle snakes in Arizona whether native or non-native, and in Colorado you can’t possess any caimans at all.

In conclusion, we’re going to try and assist the pet trade [???] with legal importation the public is requesting, promote the public economy [in fact, this will negatively impact a number of small tax-paying businesses], insure adherence and compliance with all the rules, and maximize the safeguard for the state population and protected wildlife, and be as pro-active as we can with disease prevention and undesirable species.

So our request is to formally open the importation of live, non-domestic animals, birds, and fish Rule 19.35.7, NMAC, and the Game and Fish License Permit Rule 19.30.9, NMAC, for public comment with the understanding the Department will come back to the Commission at a later meeting with rule amendments and recommendations. We’ll also be soliciting input on the web and through phone calls.

MOTION: Commissioner Riley moved to formally open the Importation of Live Non-Domestic Animals, Birds and Fish Rule 19.35.7, NMAC, and the Game and Fish License/Permit Rule for 19.30.9, NMAC, for public comment with the understanding the Department will come back to the Commission at a later meeting with rule amendment recommendations.

Commissioner Salmon seconded the motion.
VOTE: Voice vote taken. All present voted in the Affirmative. Motion carried unanimously.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
You may want to send a copy of your letter to other concerned parties.

DIRECTOR AND SECRETARY
TO THE COMMISSION
Bruce C. Thompson, Ph.D.
Tod Stevenson, Deputy Director
STATE OF NEW MEXICO
DEPARTMENT OF GAME & FISH
One Wildlife Way
Post Office Box 25112
Santa Fe, NM 87504
Phone: (505) 476-8064
Fax: (505) 476-8166

Visit our website at www.wildlife.state.nm.us
For information call: 505/476-8000

Members of the New Mexico Game and Fish Commission:

Chairman Jim McClintic
Post Office Box 21027
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87154
Work: (505) 271-4550 Fax: (505) 271-2472
Jim McClintic is a New Mexico native, an avid hunter and angler, and a lifetime member of New Mexico Trout. He is a licensed building contractor and developer, and served on the Economic Development Commission during Governor Garry Carruthers' administration. He also was on Albuquerque Mayor Martin Chavez's transition team and served as chairman of the Albuquerque Municipal Development Sustainable Enhancement Team

Vice-Chair Sandy Buffett
320 Aztec Street, Suite B
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501
Fax: (505) 986-0339
sandyNMGC@gmail.com
Sandy Buffett of Santa Fe serves as Executive Director of Conservation Voters New Mexico, representing New Mexico 's conservation community. Previously, she worked for the international affairs office of the National Wildlife Federation in Washington, D.C. She also has consulted with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the World Resources Institute, the* * * * U.N. Environment Program * * * *,and the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

Tom Arvas
7905 Spain, NE
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87109
Work: (505) 293-3515
Tom Arvas of Albuquerque is a practicing optometrist. Arvas has a long history with the Game Commission. He served under four administrations – Governors Toney Anaya, Garey Carruthers, Bruce King and Bill Richardson. He is President of the Amateur Trapshooting Association. Arvas also serves on the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Ducks Unlimited, National Rifle Association Board of Directors and the New Mexico Wildlife Federation.

M.H. "Dutch" Salmon
ALSO ON BOARD OF New Mexico Wildlife Federation
Post Office Box 878
Silver City, New Mexico 88062
Work: (575) 388-3763 Fax: (575) 388-5705
dutch@high-lonesomebooks.com
M.H. “Dutch” Salmon graduated from Trinity University, San Antonio, Texas, 1967. He has been a hunter and fisherman since youth and especially enjoys stream fishing in the Gila National Forest and hunting with his coursing hounds, as well as a bit of bird hunting. Salmon was the Chairman of the New Mexico Wilderness Coalition from 1989 to 1995, and is currently on the Board of the Quivira Coalition and New Mexico Wildlife Federation. He has been a free-lance writer, newspaper reporter and columnist since the 1970s and is the author of five outdoor books and two novels. Salmon owns High-Lonesome Books.

Gary Fonay
5333 North Baggett
Hobbs, NM; 88242
Home: (575) 492-1533
GWFonay@aol.com
Gary Fonay is involved in farming and ranching in Lea and Lincoln Counties. He is a life-long outdoorsman enjoying fishing and hunting. He was co-owner of Lynx Petroleum for 20 years retiring in 2004 but retains an interest in the oil and gas industry. Gary is a member of a number of wildlife organizations. He is also a past member of the Hobbs School Board and Hobbs City Commission.

Kent Salazar
ALSO Regional Director New Mexico Wildlife Federation
1621 Vassar Drive, SE
Albuquerque, NM 87106
Home: (505) 242-6125 Cell: (505) 220-7083
kentsala@aol.com
Kent Salazar currently runs an environmental consulting business in Albuquerque. Previously, Salazar worked for the City of Albuquerque's Environmental Health Department for 20 years. [We need more information about Salazar. Would his consulting business be involved with the issues mentioned in this proposed rule???] Salazar earned a bachelor's degree in biology from the University of New Mexico. [State depredation article And they are overly concerned about invasive species??]

975 Holcomb Road
Las Cruces, NM 88007
Work: (575) 526-5946 Fax: (575) 526-0867
DickSalopek@hotmail.com
Dick Salopek of Las Cruces is a third-generation pecan farmer in the Mesilla Valley. He is an avid hunter, bowhunter and outdoorsman. He is co-owner of Tom Salopek Farms, Western Blend, Salopek 4-MP and Robledo Pecan Sorting. He currently serves on the Board of Directors of the Dona Ana County Planning & Zoning Commission, the New Mexico Pecan Grower’s Association, and is treasurer of the Dona Ana County Farm Bureau. Dick has been on the Board of Councilors at Citizens Bank. He is also a member of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and the National Rifle Association. He holds a B.A. in Agronomy & Soil Science from New Mexico State University.

Other Agencies that may be interested about this proposed rule:

New Mexico Wildlife Services
State Director
8441 Washington NE
Albuquerque, NM 87113
Phone: (505) 346-2640
FAX: (505) 346-2627
Toll-Free Number: 1-866-4USDAWS
1-866-487-3297
Web site: www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_damage

New Mexico Regional Federal
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service - USFWS

{You may find it this bit of information of interest. Barbara Coulter is the Conservation Strategy Coordinator, the Wildlife Diversity Program Manager and the Wildlife Action Plan contact for the NM Teaming With Wildlife Chapter. She is also the Wildlife Campaigns Manager for Animal Protection of New Mexico. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they provided New Mexico Game and Fish with some of the misinformation which this proposal is based on.}
(Taken from an article I wrote several years ago. *The New Mexico Animal Protection group was originally called the Sangre de Cristo Animal Protection, Inc.) **See an issue of the APNM's newsletter, Making Tracks.

This group takes every opportunity to campaign against animal ownership while making land off limits to people in order to "preserve the habitat" for wild animals. In the process, the oil and gas business is unable to operate, mining ventures are stopped, hunting and fishing become a crime, and the lumber industry grinds to a standstill. The state loses revenue from legitimate business and people lose their livelihoods.

For the sake of space, let me just list the campaigns which the APVNM focuses upon (I could easily write a paper about each topic): Companion Animal Rescue Effort (CARE), Animal Control Officer and Law Enforcement support, protecting beavers, cougars, bears and rattlesnakes, trapping and hunting, the Safe Passage Program (building underground roads for wild animals so they don't have to cross the highways), alternatives to dissection in schools, animal overpopulation (pets), vegetarianism, the "plight" of circus animals, animal hoarding, Save the Chimps and the problems with public land ranching.

CARE sounds like a wonderful program -- that is until people are charged with abandonment (animal cruelty) for circumstances that are out of their control such as fires, floods, hurricanes, tornados etc. I have written about the biased training of ACOs and how they are encouraged to create animal cruelty cases from flimsy evidence. Beavers can be a real pest, especially when they dam up New Mexico's precious water resources! Cougars and bears belong in the wild not on a person's property. When they become a threat to humans, they need to be dealt with. Same for rattlesnakes. What would you do if you found a den on them on your property? The HSUS endorsed Albuquerque HEART ordinance thoroughly addressed alleged pet overpopulation. Don't get me started on the term "animal hoarding." We already know what the ARs think about cattle ranching.

See what the APVNM's did in 2005.

The Organization of Professional Aviculturists is a 501(c)6 Not for Profit Trade Organization created to protect the rights of aviculturists. American Aviculture is officially recognized as a legitimate trade.

Correct their errors and they'll call you a contributor and thank you for helping to tighten the noose.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I do not plan to correct their errors or do their work for them. They need to do that. But I can make them aware that their list is incorrect. At least our side will "go on record" that there are numerous problems with this proposed rule and maybe that information can be used in the future if need be BECAUSE if the rule is passed as is, we know it will create a real clusterfluff.

A bird is a reptile w/feathers

Freelance,

Thanks for posting this example of "selective legislation" to target a specific group of tax paying citizens in New Mexico to support the Animal Right's (AR) agenda...We already know that the AR crowd seeks to end ALL animals in captivity (they've stated this many times over many decades) so if they get away with this, the next time around, all they have to do is change the disease to fit with an animal and viola! Another animal species is regulated and/or banned...Eventually, they WILL get around to domestic farming and other animal husbandry industries. This is only a continuation of picking off the low fruit, one small group at a time until there are no more...

Let's see, controlling disease is a very old scare tactic of the AR folks (e.g. salmonella, etc). I agree with you that they should state (for public record) what the problems are and how widespread the problem is to New Mexico's public safety. With that in mind, take salmonella for example...Isn't that something that the residents of New Mexico need to fear from their food supply in grocery stores and restaurants? Of course it is and yet, this commerce and industry (e.g. farming, food processing, grocery stores, restaurants, etc) is allowed to not only work with these disease carrying animals for domestic food production but, the products can be sold as FOOD for the citizens of New Mexico! I wonder what New Mexico's poultry farmers would say about these proposed rules? And what do they propose to do about the natural occurring diseases (e.g. ticks, etc)? Eradicate all natural wildlife to protect public health?

Regarding hybridization, another AR scare tactic that again, they should state (for public record) the extent and nature of the problem...Just how BIG is it in New Mexico? And what about those domesticated chickens and turkeys being raised on farms in New Mexico? None of them are found in the wild and couldn't they "hybridize" with nature fuana? Not to mention cattle and horses...What to do with them or any other "domesticated" animal being grown on farms in New Mexico?

And then they talk about the dreaded "invasive species"...Again, take a look at every domesticated animal in New Mexico and compare them to the natural fuana there...How many of these species are found in New Mexico? I'll bet that the very definition that they use to "classify" native fuana will exclude virtually every single domesticated animal in the state.

De-venomize (e.g. fang or organ removal) venomous animals is by definition, animal cruelty in that this is how they acquire food (modified saliva) and by how many years of evolution, is used to assist in digestion of their food (from the inside out)...Suppose you recommend removing the teeth and salivary glands of the caring individuals that made this proposal in the first place...I wonder how they'd feel about "gumming" their food?

Vetrinarian inspection/certification as being "disease free" is a joke! Why don't you ask your federal, state and local food inspectors if, by policy and practice, they inspect every animal in the state BEFORE it is processed (or imported-there ain't any lobsters in New Mexico) and sold as food to the citizens of New Mexico! You'll be very surprised in the answer...They'll cite under-staffing, under-funded, etc...Every reason in the book why they CANNOT do this as public health officials but they're going to require each individual citizen that has an animal on their list to do this and fine them if they don't? Ah yes, the government's employees are exempted...Again, selective application of the law against a selected group of citizens...

Fees for each animal imported into the state...Let's see, is there a fee for every domesticated animal imported into the state of New Mexico? If not, there should be...I'll bet the politicians will not touch that one due to the ramifications of not only campaign contributions but, with negative ad's as well. Again, selective legislation in support of the AR agenda...

Assist the pet trade? Hardly, they're attempting to diminish and/or end it! These requirements will just be the next step to where they want to go as the only way to ensure a disease and hybrid free New Mexican fuana is by banning ALL animals in captivity or domestic farm production...After all, is anything in this proposal "easy" or "inexpensive" for the citizens that this proposal will effect? No, it is not. It's designed to be difficult for a reason...

Wow, nice to see that the vice-chair (Sandy Buffet) of this group used to work for UNEP...That's one of the international organizations that is implementing the international "Biosphere Reserve Program" for the United Nations! To discuss this would make this post even longer so I'll end here...

The bottom line is that none of this is about their stated "concerns" to the average New Mexican citizen or the natural habitat as to put it actual practice, by their own definitions, would call for the eradication of every animal in the state...Domesticated or native!

Just my 10-cents worth...

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

So right on. How come the dreaded, what ever it is, flavor of the day they are supposedly protecting us from is always so nebulous, vague, amorphous?
jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John,

No worries man...No matter how many of these we look at...Whether it's a state bill of a federal one...It's the same formula from the same agenda...

Funny thing though is that upon analysis and in comparison to what the AR crowd is attempting to accomplish and using their definitions (from their regulations), what they are "selectively" attempting to do is to "selectively" apply the law to eliminate ALL animals in captivity with the "selective" exclusion of themselves (e.g. zoos, universities/colleges, research, and the government themselves)!

When you think about it, you can ONLY conclude that this is their ultimate objective. Now add in the fact that by their definitions just what would be permitted here in the Uunited States? Of ALL of the domesticated species of animals (e.g. poultry, hogs, cattle & dairy cows, dogs, cats, etc), how many of them are "native" to North America?

Now consider inspections...How many of the "domesticated" species are inspected, both before and after processing? What about the hunters and fishermen? How much of their "permitted take" is inspected? Now consider diseases, hybridization or invasive species, how many of these threats don't already exist in nature? All three of these criteria apply in-situ so using their own criteria to "save the public", the in-situ animals have to go...This is ridiculous right? Well, this is how ridiculous their rules, regulations, laws, etc really are...

Every rule, regulation and law that they are allowed to pass is just another brick in the AR agenda "regulatory" wall, that just keeps getting higher and higher, making it more and more difficult to keep animals (of most any kind) in private captive husbandry. So what can we conclude here?

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

What I conclude is that it is an elitist agenda. Only the privileged few amongst the elite class will have access to what we all at one time had access, and took for granted.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John your last statement says more in that one scentence than entire pages I have read lately.Thak you and I agree 100%
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Archie Bottoms

>>What I conclude is that it is an elitist agenda. Only the privileged few amongst the elite class will have access to what we all at one time had access, and took for granted.
>>jsc
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

Agreed, and the pursuit of "elitist agendas" is a problem that goes way beyond snake ownership. From global warming to education, it's choking us from all directions.

I truly am not trying to be argumentative, just want to understand the "took for granted" part of your statement. Can you expand on that? Maybe I haven't been around long enough or maybe there are other reasons, but one thing I'm confused about is that there seems to always be some little hint or implication of self-blame on our part for the legislation being pushed.

Thanks,
Ed

Simply a right we considered was naturally there for us, without giving it much thought. Kinda like an inalienable right. Kinda like fresh air and sunshine.
Never knowing it could be taken away by others with an agenda of control.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It just seems so foreign a concept in America. Who'd a thunk it?
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>It just seems so foreign a concept in America. Who'd a thunk it?
>>jsc
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

Thanks for clarifying. I agree, who would have ever thunk all this legislation (on Federal, State and local levels) based on nothing but fear and junk science would even be possible. Scary stuff.

I agree with Kathy, I'm voting Libertarian from now on.

Thanks,
Ed

I have seen so many attacks on individual freedoms, and so much growth in Big Brother in ALL areas the last couple of decades that I find it VERY scary! Big gov looks for any scary reason to become more powerful...War on Poverty...War on Drugs...War on Terror...now, a War on Pythons, or so it seems. Each time, scare tactics are used as reasons to grow Big Brother even bigger.

After 9/11, I remember reading an editorial in the local paper. The journalist said that we should expect to give up some rights and freedoms in the name of safety. Nobody else seemed to find that a scary statement, or at least nobody commented.

We see the animal keeping niche because that is what we are most familiar with. But it is happening in all areas of our lives, and very few people seem genuinely concerned. I guess because we have a history of freedom here, we think nothing could change, and so don't worry too much. It concerns me greatly, ESPECIALLY for the kids who will never know what they are missing. I hope it won't become too "unfree" in my lifetime. But if I had kids, I would worry a lot for their future freedom. It is really sad...

VOTE LIBERTARIAN!

I agree to a point, Kathy. I'm just wondering about the implications for real environmental protection, and curbing corporate abuses. For example, in a libertarian government, how do you avoid such things as the gulf oil spill, or the abuses of huge investment banks and corporations?

It's a difficult balance to achieve.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad there is nothing stopping it now.In a libertarian society individual freedoms that do not cross the lines to your naighbors are protected and would remain protected.I think that there is no perfect world as long as we remain a slave to oil that will always be a risk.The smaller picture that I see is the ability to enjoy a true and real freedom as long as you are not limiting any one elses freedoms on a personal level.The bigger picture is more sketchy as there always has to be some level of protection in some issues.My point is the ownership of animals that are already very abundant in trade could not end up a target as has been done here.At some point every society will have laws no doubt but when those laws make legal law abiding Americans outlaws there should be a line.I am not against banning python imports or any wild animal at this point.As we have many here already.In my idealistic world that would be a nice trade no import and the continued allowences of our hobby only captive bred.But you are right those things would be hard to stop.
-----
Archie Bottoms

Archie, looks like you and I are on the same page here...
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

>>I agree to a point, Kathy. I'm just wondering about the implications for real environmental protection, and curbing corporate abuses. For example, in a libertarian government, how do you avoid such things as the gulf oil spill, or the abuses of huge investment banks and corporations?
>>
>>It's a difficult balance to achieve.

I guess my objection to this is that it assumes corruption and tragedy would somehow be avoided if government controls things. I don't see how that would be true, humans in government are just as, if not more, corrupt, greedy and incompetent in the public sector than in the private sector. All you need to do is look at the DOI and other gov't agencies with no checks and balances. The head of the EPA is pushing "social justice", the educational system is a bloated beareaucracy on every level, etc., etc. Government control doesn't get rid of any "human" problems, it just adds more problems for responsible citizens.

Looks to me like what you are really attacking is government corruption, not so much the idea of government regulation at all levels. It would be hard to argue that government is INHERENTLY corrupt (though if you're only looking at the past decade, that is a tempting argument to make -there are myriad examples of regulations that have inarguably been beneficial to the health of both humans and the environment.

I believe a balanced view is necessary, both in order that we be taken seriously, and that we be honest with ourselves and the public at large.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Theoretically, we live in a Confederation of States type government.

Federal involvement/oversight are for universal and uniform protections among the states, as in national defense, economic interests (interstate banking and corporate excesses), minimum educational standards, freedom of speech, etc. Basically the oversight and assurance of uniform Constitution and Constitutional amendments application, equally throughout the States.

The Federal Government has just gotten too carried away with control, especially since homeland security. Pretty much a red herring/straw man argument for more control. Very inefficient and a waste of money.

Big Brother may not have done the Twin Towers thing, but he sure didn't waste a second taking full advantage of the moment.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Why President Obama didn't select me for the Supreme Court nomination, I'll never know...Oh, yeah. Now I remember...
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You'd have MY support, John
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

not just rights. In a libertarian society, you would have a lot less regulation. BUT - you would have a lot MORE responsibility, both to provide for yourself and your family, and to clean up any problems you cause to others, whether you are an individual, or a giant corporation like BP. And you (meaning all citizens) would be expected (and reinforced by peer pressure, not government) to help others through charities much more than through taxes - kind of like it was back in my childhood.

When I was a kid and my (single) dad was hospitalized, requiring us to move in with his mom, it was the Salvation Army that brought food and some Christmas presents, not the government. And they have always been my #1 place to give to as an adult. And that is how it should be, in my opinion.

Again, I agree that should be the ideal. But those were admittedly simpler times.

I have difficulty picturing the big oil companies or the wall street bankers "doing the right thing" through "peer pressure"....
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

No Brad they sure will not.This is an ideal society of witch we dream.It is not real nor ever will be but I do get the idea.I have always been a republican.When I was young I thought I was a democrat as I thought liberal meant what libertarian ment.Now I am just some one who wants to keep my animals and be left alone.
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Archie Bottoms

Sorry I wasn't clear.

CHARITY giving would be by peer pressure. But even libertarians expect to have laws and regulations to protect everyone from those who will not take responsibility for their own actions "just because it is the right thing to do". It would STILL be illegal to murder, steal, or do other things that harm other people and their property. Libertarians may be optimists, but not stupid, lol!

The big difference is that laws would be limited to those which truly stop you from harming somebody else, but not regulate things which others fear will affect only your morality or lifestyle decisions (such as your sex life or other personal decisions). Of course, there are some gray areas as to whether something is likely to only harm the person involved, or others as well (venomous snake keeping, certain drugs, etc). Those may require some reasonable regulation to allow maximum freedom with minimal possibility of harming others. But so many of our laws are for victimless crimes or stupid things like keeping pets that are less likely to cause problems than a large dog. Many have nothing to do with solving a real problem.

I doubt that we would ever have a truly libertarian society, but I sure would like to see SOME libertarian freedoms.

If you want to truly know where you fall (left, right, lib, etc), try The World's Smallest Political Quiz below - you might surprise yourself!

http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html
World's Smallest Political Quiz

I came up "Centrist"...
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

And ultimately self destructive.

If you considered the position as systemic, libertarianism is arguing for isolated power structures, a vast multitude of isolated power structures working against each other for lack of coordination of relative source. That’s fine in comic books, but Americans do need to be united as a global (Federal) force if the hegemony is to be maintained on agreeable terms.

Otherwise we should learn Mandarin Chinese, as it will eventually suit our best interests.

Our world, as we know it, is rapidly coming to an end. Please see I.O.U.S.A. for the full details.

Not exactly.

Deficit spending is the American way...it has been since the beginning of the US as a Nation (and well before that as colonies).

So don't panic.

And it's not like we have no idea where we can raise more money-our taxation level is the lowest of all western democracies, plus we are the only major democracy without a value-added tax.

Here's what we do: Abolish the income tax, add a substantial (say, 10%) consumption tax, plus enough of a carbon tax so that the true cost (environmental, health, and military) of fossil fuels is reflected in their price. Now add targeted spending cuts, and 'voila! A balanced budget in less than a decade.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Please watch the video. Deficit spending is only 1/4 of the problem!

Our income tax rates are at their lowest in 50 years, too.

One thing to consider is this: historically, before federal income taxes came in to being, property taxes were very high. And property consisted of many things, including livestock.

Would anyone here be willing go back to having their animals taxed?

I'm sure you all know this but, the idea is for the Government to spend more during slow economic times allowing for a deficit, in order to stimulate the economy and for the Government to reduce spending during good economic times, thereby reducing any deficit.

The problem is, the Government went about spending like a drunken sailor during the good times, thereby increasing the deficit to monumental proportions. That makes any stimulus spending during hard times that much more difficult to accomplish any beneficial economic result, due to the inherent Inflationary nature of said stimulus.

This is a case of textbook Keynesian Economics Monetary Policy neutered by unchecked, undisciplined, and out of control runaway U. S. Fiscal Policy by the U.S. Congress as well as the Executive Branch of our last administration.

Remember the "Too Big to Fail" thing? All part of the same rotten thing stinking up Washington.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I thought the idea of a national sales tax instead of an income tax was a bad idea until I looked into it.

To me, it's greatest virtues are that it would eliminate all the loopholes that allow many to avoid most or all taxation, and would encourage savings.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I always thought it unfairly impacted the poor. In relative terms, a greater percentage of income will be paid in taxes.

For those that do not earn enough to even consider discretionary purchases versus savings, the poor unfairly pay a higher proportion of income with a sales tax.

I'm for a Flat (income) Tax I think. None or few deductions. No loopholes.

I would like to see all of the following, equitably applied -- A National Sales Tax. Luxury items sales taxed at higher rates. A value added Tax on some items. And a Flat Income Tax, only deductions to be home ownership, veterans, savings.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

So-called Liberal Taxachusetts (MA) has fairly equitable sales taxes, in that food (groceries) are not taxed, nor is clothing (unless a single garment costs more than $175, then you're taxed on the excess).

Food and clothing are considered necessities...restaurant meals are not.

It varies from state to state. Some items that used to be exempt in TX have been included as a sales taxed item. When times get tough, government entities do what they have to to raise the revenue they need.

They do have the sales Tax Holiday for one weekend every year on clothing at the beginning of the school year. Mostly helps all the anchor babies, since they dominate the schools here in Texas.
Not so much after somewhere around 10th grade, though. Go figure?

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

From what I remember, thats not how the FairTax works. Everything is taxed at a predetermined rate (around 22%). Every household or individual, whichever the case may be, receives a rebate for cost of living expenditures every month. The rebate amount is predetermined by a bunch of smart people who figure out what it would cost to feed and clothe a person. They figure that sometimes you will spend more than the rebate, but most of the time you will spend less, thus encouraging savings. Its actually very fair to poorer individuals in the sense that they get to take home every penny that they earn and are rewarded for being frugal. As they begin to consume more items that are not considered necessary, they pay more in tax.
At least thats the way I remember it. Cant find my FairTax book.
I'm against a value added tax because it really only taxes the end user. All of the ones responsible for a good or service along the way will just increase their price to offset the VAT being applied to them.
I'm against any carbon tax because the two biggest violating countries don't pay any tax and it would unfairly handcuff US industries.
-----
1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

Actually, China and India are using U.S. recalcitrance in the area of a carbon tax to justify their own uncontrolled emissions. I of course favor consideration of a carbon tax combined with negotiations with these countries to assure that the pain is equally shared.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Please watch the video. Deficit spending is only 1/4 of the problem!

Here is one of my favourite quotes, "Gold is the currency of kings, silver is the currency of gentlemen, barter is the currency of peasants and debt is the currency of slaves".

That is a good one, indeed.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yes, but in the financial world, it's not unlike playing Hearts... with a little debt, the bank owns you, with enough debt, you own the bank.

I have recently been disabled and salvation army has helped my family as well.I worked for them years ago volinteering now they returned the favor.The one in abilene Texas has a drug rehab as well that pays there addicts and alcaholics 10 dollars a day and gives them a place to stay while they get clean.They are live in and work in the store as well as trucks.It is a great program not gov funded.I have worked in treatment at a few places that paid theres was the very best program I have ever scene.The program also has a step up program that gets them emploied after 60 days while they live there they keep there money until enough is saved to get an apartment.Several company's are involved and provide jobs for these people trying to do better.They require that you get 60 days before you leave and work outside the compound until they provide a small job and money as well as 3 meals a day.We as Americans need more programs such as this to help the less fortunate help them selves.That is why the program is called step up not hand out.
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Archie Bottoms

I've been at the Austin Herpetological Society meeting. More on that in another post.
On this subject, it is simply class warfare. The "Too Big to Fail" mentality runs this country...bought and paid for.
"Too good too..." those are the ones that look down their noses at the Common Man. Their economic models require fresh legions of imported labor to sustain and grow their wealth. They don't care if we suffer at the hands of their preferential treatment to non-citizens, while we subsidize their work force with our tax dollars, all the while as our earning power and security go down the drain.
The Herpers are one more rhizome in the grass roots effort to turn things around. What we need to do is present our case to America and grow this effort into a Bamboo forest.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

We were living in a theocracy. Which would explain the natred for snakes

Just one more weapon in the strategy arsenal, for control and management.

Actually, I think we currently live in an Oligarchicly controlled Fascist State.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Which is close to most theocracies.

No...there are still some hold-outs

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers.html

Nutjobs. Poisonous snakes don't always bite. It's kind of a reverse lottery for them.

Thanks for the link.