Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I always sell my hybrids first because that is what people seem to want "A pretty snake". Just saying we should not buy hybrids will not get people to stop buying them and people to stop breeding them.

Now I produce many many more pure species but they are harder to sell than the hybrids. Just a fact. Not meant to flame anyone or get anyone all workied up. The good looking hybrids appeal more to a larger population of herpers than a locale rosy boa, Lousiana Pine or New Jersey King. I work with many new morphs and one of a kind animals and the newer hybrids sell quicker.

So we need to come to other resolutions and not sound like a broken record by voicing the same opinions over and over again.

Bottom line is Keith what you are proposing is not productive reasoning for the hybrid issues. People will buy hybrids and that is a fact and one of the future of this hobby. Hybrids will have an effect on people buying into what they believe to be something else by unscrupulous breders. We will always have bad people whether we have hybrids or not. Thats kinda the same arguement as the Brady bill lobbeists have by saying we will solve crime by taking away the guns. Not gonna happen. Besides people will always find a way to kill each other. Its in our human nature.

How do we fight unscrupulous breeders selling animals to unsuspecting customers????????INFORM THEM ON HYBRIDS! Pretending that they do not exist is not the answer to letting people getting ripped off.

Did anyone read Steve Osbornes reply below that hondurans are derived from hybrid animals? The point he was making that some of the so called purists are not even aware what they defending are not even pure animals. But instead they are whatever we want to believe they are. A rather sobering take on this whole debate and one that needs more looking into.

I would like to hear hear more on the subject of the hondurans and the German breeders combining all the sub species into one group and selling them as hondurans. What do we really have? Have we all been duped by the hondurans? I would like to hear more facts on this subject and if anyone can shed additional light as I do not want to misrepresent the honduarans that I produce.

And Keith lets move past the point of saying hybrids are bad... That statement will not solve any of the issues we as a herp community we are having. It will just cause more division. We need to be more diplomatic and democratic and invite others a place to discuss the other side of the issues to work together for the hobby as a whole and to help identify snakes as we progress into the envetable future of herpetoculture and hybrids..

Lets see if we can discuss this in a way we can all benefit and not offend anyone. Please! If we do not then we all lose out in one way or another.

I think we all lose out by someone like Steve Osborne not posting because of some twisted reply. We should all be open to learn from one of the largest and most successful herpetoculturists in the world. Not only is he a large breeder but an inttelligent human being and one that has a lot to offer to these debates.

We should be thankful he or any of the large top breders like him would even COME AND SHARE ON THIS BOARD...!

Lets not chase these honest and large breeders off this board!

Indeed. if we all lived in a perfect world it would be a lonely place!

Here is the post I was refferring to by Steve Osborne:

Had not visited the Kingsnake Forum in some time and see that the endless hybrid debate is still alive and well!

Thought I would touch on a little piece of history regarding the original albino Honduran founder stock from East Germany. I was offered these as Lampropeltis triangulum polyzona in 1993 from a contact in Germany that was a friend of the E. Germany breeder. I was sent photos of the hetero parental stock and albino juveniles which appeared to confirm the polyzona classification. I passed on the offer due to the relative unattractive appearance of the animals and also because of what I felt would be limited appeal of polyzona (both as a subspecie and because and the photos of the breeding stock and albino color) in comparison with the albino ruthveni and albino nelsoni that were just getting started at that time.
Within 2 years this same stock became Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis and the rest is history. At the time I don't think there was much questioning to them being labeled "hondurensis" by U.S. breeders/investors as it appeared that people wanted them to be "hondurensis" therefore they will be "hondurensis".

Another intriguing slant to this story is this- Germans had a tendency throughout the 1970's and 1980"s to name Central American Milk Snakes imported to Germany everything from L. t. abnorma to L.t. stuarti to polyzona to hondurensis. Little regard was given to locality, it was all about scale counts and triads according to Kenneth Williams Lampropeltis triangulum monograph. I believe it was a genuine attempt to properly identify animals in their collections but it was not accurate because of lack of locality data and shortcomings within tringulum taxonomy throughout Central America.

So, there it is. Just when you thought the dividing lines were perfect, I share this little tidbit. Have a nice day!

Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS

If I buy a snake I want it to be pure. I dont want it to have any hybrid in it. I have seen some hybrids that look alright but its just something that I personlally don't want. I had a bad experiece at the daytona show bought a female snake that was sold to me as pure california kingnake got back to room and found out it had some corn snake in it. But you have to be careful at the reptile shows cuz there are people out there who will try to sale you a hybrid and call it a pure breed. I might have actually considered having hybrids but sense I had a bad experience with it the first time I probably will not. I ended up giving the hyrbid away at the show and replaced her with a reversed striped california king female from Renegade Reptiles. I would reccomend Renegade Reptiles to anyone.

john

This issue has rather interesting account of the first albino "honduran". If you can turn up a copy-check it out. Some of us "Purist types" do try to stay on top off all this. I agree...sadly that hybrids are so entrenched in our hobby that they are here to stay... I do not hate them...but as it allready has been pointed out. There are people out there that will say Anything to make a sale...which is what ruins it for the rest and adds to the damage that ignorance has caused.
Frank

Frank
Is that the issue when they had a amel Central American Milksnake and they state they are a three way cross?

No. this article was by Louis Porras wa centered on the first albino. Tells of their origion (1986) as well as the snakes misidentified (as Polyzona 1990)that were imported that were actually Hondurans that were released by the the German couple the first bred them. Very intersting read...
Frank

The Europeans held to the idea that an aberant snake (such as an albino) was genetically weak and would not survive in nature. The Hortenbachs were advised by their friends to destroy the albino as an inferior specimen. Close call....Frank

Rainer I see the same tired old Hybrids being sold on kingsnake.com and I see the same few folks selling them. I also go to local and the medium sized Chicago show(s) and the "normal" animals by far and I mean by way far are more numerous. That can tell you a few things. One its supply and demand more people demand Corns and Kings and Boas and Ball's etc.. and not "Jurassic Milks" or "Neon Kings" etc... These may sell well for you but you are not the "Neilson Family" of reptiles. You should get rid of all your non-hybrid animals and start stocking Hybrid Breeders and you would be a rich man before too long if its as you say. I dont see the Hybrid forum in the top of the "Top Ten Forum List" either. I think the Hybrid guys stand out more because its a unique or gimmicky so maybe you misconstrue that as being more popular or becoming more popular ??? As far as Steve Osborne who cares if he posts on this forum for that matter who cares if I do. Im not going to treat him special because he has pretty pics on his website or he is a "Big Breeder" as you have deemed him. Was Daytona packed with Hybrids this year ? Where these things selling hand over fist ? I wasnt there so fill me in.

Regards,

Keith

that the demand for regular balls is much larger....if piebalds only cost $40 they will sell much faster. Problem is, regular animals are cheaper, therefore more often bought. Thats the only reason for the large demand or regular balls.

Keith
I am so glad you brought this up because I sure wanted to.

The man you are referring to as continuosly selling the Jurassics over and over on the forums is jobber named Neil Gubitz. He buys the culled out ugly Jurassics from the breeder and then advertises the same snakes year round. He just got a new batch of 2003 culled out Jursssics and I am sure we will see them advertised over and over again for the next 12 months. He posts the same snakes almost daily and that is what you see as not selling.

I guess since you are not into hybrids that you never took note of all this. But I hope this open yopur eyes a bit and you can see how misinformed a post like that can get people believing that the Jurasics are worthless. That what you want people to believe. I am telling you different and I would know sine I sell them.

Over the past 4 years that I have sold the Jurassics I have almost sold out on them the forst day in Daytona. But this year ai sold all the nicest ones before the show and only had the ugly ones left. So I did not sell to many of those.

Last week he actually had the nerve to advertise "new morph and one of a kind animal" He was asking I think $799. for a $40 Jurassic which is what he probably payed for it.He never posted it was a Jurassic. Pure deception.

Point is I or you have no control whether someone like Neil Gubitz advertises the Jurassics or advertises brooks kings, Boelen's pythons or Red sided garter snakes, Lousiana Pinesnakes or whatever. . But we can inform people so they will not be taken.

IMO it would take a complete newbie to fall for this kind of deception and people like Neil prey on these newbies. but there are other ways people prey on newbies, like they send them sick or wild caught animals.

If you want to protect the newbies that would be a better front since with some of these hybrids at least we know they are captive born and probably eat well.

I always sell my hybrids first because that is what people seem to want "A pretty snake". Just saying we should not buy hybrids will not get people to stop buying them and people to stop breeding them.

This is a true statement. The only way to stop people hybridizing snakes is for people to stop buying them. The only attraction to hybridized snakes is apparently the commercial one. If there is no market, there will be no reason to breed them. So, for the anti-hybrid folks...that's where you need to concentrate your efforts, educating the snake-buying public on the problems and pitfalls associated with hybrids. For the pro-hybrid side, you need to come up with valid, defensible arguments for the hybridization of snakes OTHER than "It's a pretty snake.", or "They sell well.".

Now I produce many many more pure species but they are harder to sell than the hybrids. Just a fact. Not meant to flame anyone or get anyone all workied up. The good looking hybrids appeal more to a larger population of herpers than a locale rosy boa, Lousiana Pine or New Jersey King. I work with many new morphs and one of a kind animals and the newer hybrids sell quicker.

This may be true to some extent also. But, I think if you don't lump in beginners and people just looking for a pet snake with the group labelled "herpers", then that percentage dwindles drastically. The albinos and really strikingly marked morphs (and hybrids) do appeal to people who are beginning in the hobby or are looking for a first pet snake. They've never seen anything like it and, to be honest, some of them are quite beautifully marked. I also think that once you've been around a while, these things are old news. Herpers tend to gravitate toward a particular family, genus or species that they particularly enjoy working with and then tend to lean more toward "purism" and locale animals and tend to try to keep them pure. Some, to be sure, will get more into the morphs and such and will do quite well with it (case in point; Bill and Kathy Love). I think it is related to a keen interest in the genetics of a particular species and the morphs and "natural" or "pure" strains just happen to be on opposite ends of the same spectrum. It is a very closely related but divergent interest.

So we need to come to other resolutions and not sound like a broken record by voicing the same opinions over and over again.

This one, I can't really agree with. It sounds as if what you are really saying is "I'm tired of hearing your opinion, so I wish you would change it to match mine." Opinions are what they are, and that's how they will be expressed.

Bottom line is Keith what you are proposing is not productive reasoning for the hybrid issues. People will buy hybrids and that is a fact and one of the future of this hobby. Hybrids will have an effect on people buying into what they believe to be something else by unscrupulous breders. We will always have bad people whether we have hybrids or not. Thats kinda the same arguement as the Brady bill lobbeists have by saying we will solve crime by taking away the guns. Not gonna happen. Besides people will always find a way to kill each other. Its in our human nature.

This is very true. There have always been unscrupulous people in this business. They make it very tough on the good ones. That's a fact of life...or is it? We have the power to run the bad ones out of the business. The bad ones are varied in their misdeeds...some misrepresent animals as to origin/purity, some misrepresent the health and condition of them, some even deal in illegally taken/endangered animals. All are motivated by the same thing. Greed. There are governing bodies that control (to some degree) this sort of thing in dealing with dogs, cats, horses, etc..but amazingly enough there's nothing like that for reptiles. Since we know what motivates the bad ones getting rid of them shouldn't be that big an issue. All that's needed is to organize and police our own ranks.

How do we fight unscrupulous breeders selling animals to unsuspecting customers????????INFORM THEM ON HYBRIDS! Pretending that they do not exist is not the answer to letting people getting ripped off.

I agree.

Did anyone read Steve Osbornes reply below that hondurans are derived from hybrid animals? The point he was making that some of the so called purists are not even aware what they defending are not even pure animals. But instead they are whatever we want to believe they are. A rather sobering take on this whole debate and one that needs more looking into.

Some truth here.

I would like to hear hear more on the subject of the hondurans and the German breeders combining all the sub species into one group and selling them as hondurans. What do we really have? Have we all been duped by the hondurans? I would like to hear more facts on this subject and if anyone can shed additional light as I do not want to misrepresent the honduarans that I produce.

That is not what I read. What I read was the Germans had been trying to make a more accurate identification of the animals they were breeding by using scale counts, etc. and ignoring locale data, triads and coloration, etc. We all know that there is tremendous overlap in scale counts in many closely related species/sub-species. What they ended up with was not one big group called hondurensis, but many possibly misidentified species (hondurensis labelled as campbelli, nelsoni labelled as abnorma, etc.) and that the original group of ALBINO hondurensis, may have in fact been abnorma. But, on the other hand, I have seen writings of a proposal to do away with all sub-species conventions for L.triangulum ssp. and just call them all L. triangulum. (possibly proposed bt the German that got them mixed up in the first place?)

And Keith lets move past the point of saying hybrids are bad... That statement will not solve any of the issues we as a herp community we are having. It will just cause more division. We need to be more diplomatic and democratic and invite others a place to discuss the other side of the issues to work together for the hobby as a whole and to help identify snakes as we progress into the envetable future of herpetoculture and hybrids..

There is no inevitable future for herpetoculture. Because of the fact that we are a largely silent and loosely (at best) organized group, we are easy pickings for the people that want to do away with our hobby/business. Even if we manage to survive the attacks of the groups trying to destroy us, the field is very liquid. What's "hot" and "all the rage" one day is gone and forgotten the next. 30 Years ago, I would have never thought that there would be such a proliferation of albinos, leucistic animals, anerythristic anmials, etc. Bernt Bechtels' work was still fairly recent with Albino Corn Snakes, there were a few Albino Monacled Cobras popping up , etc., and an Albino Corn Snake baby would cost you over $100.00 (about like $350-$400 now). What's a baby Albino Corn worth now? $15.00? $20.00? That would equate to maybe $5.00 in those days. On the other hand, a baby (normal coloration) Northern Pine Snake would have cost $10.00 or $15.00 then, it's maybe $45.00 or $50.00 now. Comparatively not much change in value. New things command high market prices for the first year or two, then the price falls to next to nothing. So, if you spent $3,000.00 on a pair of some morph (not difficult to do), then spend 2 or 3 more years getting them ready to breed, by then the price is down to the point that it will take a long time to get your investment back and realize some profit. A good case for this, I think, is the $15,000.00 Piebald Ball Pythons. Sometime in the fairly near future, they will probably be all over the place for $100.00 apiece. The c/b normal coloration ones will still be $50.00. You won't make thousands of dollars on a clutch, but you won't spend thousands (that you will never recoup) on your breeders.

Lets see if we can discuss this in a way we can all benefit and not offend anyone. Please! If we do not then we all lose out in one way or another.

This may be the most important statement in here.

I think we all lose out by someone like Steve Osborne not posting because of some twisted reply. We should all be open to learn from one of the largest and most successful herpetoculturists in the world. Not only is he a large breeder but an inttelligent human being and one that has a lot to offer to these debates.

I agree, although I'm not sure which twisted reply you are referring to.

We should be thankful he or any of the large top breders like him would even COME AND SHARE ON THIS BOARD...!

Indeed. if we all lived in a perfect world it would be a lonely place!

We should be thankful for (almost) anyone that shares this board with us. (There have been a few trolls that would be exceptions to that) Of all the animals, the herper is the rarest one. Although I do not agree personally with the practice of creating hybrids that do not occur naturally, as long as they do not impact wild populations and are never misrepresented, I suppose to each his own. The problem I see is once the hybrid leaves the hands of the honest breeder, who knows what the next person will do with it or what they'll sell it as (or it's offspring). One other rreal issue with this is (as Dean Alessandirin pointed out in another thread) the hybridization and intergradation of threatened and endangered species. There is at this point, viable captive populations of several Threatened and Endangered species that could be called upon for stock to use for repatriation projects. If that stock has been conpromised by reckless hybridization and intergrading, it is worthless for those projects. One of our responsibilities as herpers is to do what we can to help preserve the wild populations our animals came from.

np

For the pro-hybrid side, you need to come up with valid, defensible arguments for the hybridization of snakes OTHER than "It's a pretty snake.", or "They sell well.".

Oldherper,
First off I was responding to Keiths earlier posts that said hybrids do not sell well. It was never in defense of hybridizing nor meant to be taken that way. Seems like you got all my posts all screwed up and me on the defensive trying to correct your little twists and additions. Kinda makes it hard to have a good debate and I do not want to be part of any continuance of this.

So we need to come to other resolutions and not sound like a broken record by voicing the same opinions over and over again

This one, I can't really agree with. It sounds as if what you are really saying is "I'm tired of hearing your opinion, so I wish you would change it to match mine." Opinions are what they are, and that's how they will be expressed.

Again Oldherper, you are responding to my response to Keith when he has stated, and stated several times in the past " we need to tell people not to buy hybrids " which in reality is not going to solve any problems we have identifying them. That was my point and anything else you read into it is your own doing.

Basiically Oldherper I have re-read my post my statements are pretty clear (except for typos) but you insist on taking them out of context.Look at what my next paragraph says. Its pretty clear and did not warrant a reply such as yours.

Bottom line is Keith what you are proposing is not productive reasoning for the hybrid issues. People will buy hybrids and that is a fact and one of the future of this hobby. Hybrids will have an effect on people buying into what they believe to be something else by unscrupulous breeders. We will always have bad people whether we have hybrids or not. Thats kinda the same arguement as the Brady bill lobbeists have by saying we will solve crime by taking away the guns. Not gonna happen. Besides people will always find a way to kill each other. Its in our human nature.

Again so let me reiterate. Stating that we should try and brow beat a few newbies into not buying hybrids is not a reasonable way to overcome some of the fake animals being sold and its not going to stop people from hybridizing or buying them.

whew! are you guys just tryin to wear me out or are we going to move forward with some good replies?

Let me begin again with the whole hybridization of what we beleive (or have deemed) hondurensis. I remember when these germans made these mistakes and the stuarti and polyzona was discussed with people like Lloyde Lemke. It was not as big a deal then but was well known that this was going on. Its just little tidbits like this that really make you think how far the hobby has come..

Personally I would want a true honduran or true Lousiana Pine. But how can we trust those selling them when even they do not know if these are legit animals?

I remember when there was much debate on the Lousina Pines that Craig Trumbower was selling. It was debated that his pines where crossed. I beleive Craig beleived them to be true.

So how do we solve the whole pure issue? Do we all have to delve into every sudspecies of corn, pine, bull, rosy boa and have accurate locality data from the beginning?

The rosy boas got screwed up a few years back by locality crosses and the whole market went south. Today you can buy just about any pure locale rosy for $50. IMHO this is an animal that is worth a whole lot more for some of the hard to get locales.

What about all the corns that were crossed with yellow rats in the 40's 50's and 60's? What about the recent intro of the creamsicle corns which have the emoryi blood. Are not all these corns well dispersed into the hobbie?

Or is the best thing to keep an ear to the ground and trust those that we know caught these animals?

Either way "TRUST" of the breeder is paramount. Even if the breeder does or does not work with hybrids.

Please lest get this debate going and I hope the rosy and pit people will join us for a good discussion on how to solve this.

can we? Can we do it in a way not to brow beat and give an answer that shows our personal security and not make this into a hate war?

Rainer

I think its funny when I see you make this quote

Personally I would want a true honduran or true Lousiana Pine. But how can we trust those selling them when even they do not know if these are legit animals?.

Thats is the reason Im against Hybrids !!!! You complain about a problem you contribute to. Why do you create hybrids Rainer ? Money ? Curiosity ? Attention ? I think they have no place in the hobby, its my opinion they are more harmful than good. I think greed makes people glaze over this fact. Its high time people take personal responsibility and stop making the problem worse. The bad part is that more people are interested in normal type animals and the Hybrid folks are a threat to that and they are in fact a small minority and an irresponsible on at that.

Keith

Keith,
Again my post was taken out of context.

When you have hondurans that are not really pure and amelanistic easterns that are not really pure (nigritis) then why would I want to buy any under those assumed names.

These animals are in fact crossed and breeders (excuse me some "purists") are selling them AS pure. Then they have the nerve to jump on my back.

If someone sells them for what they really are then I do not have a problem with the animals.Maybe this seems to harsh for some and not middle of the road enough but at least I am not the hypocrite.

Do you get it now Keith or are you going to make something else out of my post like you did with me earlier and with Steve Osbornes?

You guys need to stop taking out one liners and read what it says before and after and then take in.

A melanistic Eastern would be closer to Lampropeltis getula niger(Black Kingsnake) than L.g.nigritus. L.g.nigritus is a Mexican Black Kingsnake.

Yes you are correct. Thanks for pointing that out.

nm

we have already established that hybrid breederws are not the minority but the majority. You questions are repetitive and take us back to the dark ages.

Don't you remeber I posted a list of hybrid breeders about two months ago. You were part of that thread.

Anyway so far nobody has met the challenge so I will assume there are just a handful of pure breeders out there. Or everyone is afraid I will point out that these purists are closet hybridizers.

Keith did you know that your idol Bob Fengya was one of the biggest hybrid breeders in his time?

After having a snake sold me to as a pure california kingsnake at the daytona show and later finding out it had some corn snake in I am not a fan of hybrids. I had to end up giving it away to someone at the show and replace it with a pure california kingsnake from renegade reptiles. When I buy a snake I want it to be pure and no hybrid blood in it. You have to be careful at the shows cuz some people will try to sale you a hybrid snake and try to pass it off as a pure one.

laterz,
john

What John went through by being lied to at Daytona is exactly the reason why I can't stand hybrids. Not because of any personal preference, but because good guys like John search for a pure snake and get screwed over. This is exactly the end result. If some people want them, that is fine, but situations like this do happen, where the seller may misrepresent or lie and then the buyer who pays his hard earned money gets an unruly surprise later. How rude is that?

Do people ever search for hybrids and then buy pure snakes cause they were lied to and misled? I wonder if that ever happens?

I do see everyone's point in this, and even though I may not agree with those who are pro hybrid, let's keep this thing civil and mature.

Sorry to hear about this John. You did right by getting a snake from Renegade.

Take care!

Billy
-----
Genesis 1:1

Billy,

Yeap from now on I am only going to buy from people I know and people who have a good reputation like www.renegadereptiles.com
I would reccomend Renegade Reptiles to anyone. The daytona show was my first reptile show. But what happened to me should be a warning to all of the herpers who go to shows. Be careful who you buy from cuz someone may simply try to pass off a hyrbid as a pure snake when its not. And by the time you get back to hotel room with the snake its too damn late cuz the person that sold you the hybrid snake has already gotten your money. Thats what happened to me. I would defitnitly buy from Renegade Reptiles again and in fact I will be getting a 2003 western male hognose from them soon. I am getting for the female 2003 western hognose I have. plan on breeding them when they are old enough.

laterz,
john

"It is a known fact that any animal hyrbidized and bred back 9x makes a pure animal. I don't think a debate is necessary on this subject just as a debate over the theory of relativity would be necessary either. Besides I am not as technical and schooled in this area to be an expert or to give the precise explanations. I will invite a friend who is and he can explain this here on the forums next week if you still would like a debate."

I'm hoping that your friend is still planning to post an explanation to this statement on either this forum or the hybrid forum. I'm not qualified to debate him on this topic but I would be interested to hear the facts to support this claim so I can decide for myself whether I believe it or not.
Chris

I honestly flip-flop on this as I believe many others do. There are good arguments -pro and con. Anyway, the only answer I can come up with is the same old lame answer to 99% of all problems--EDUCATION. Arrogance on the part of those "in the know" surely doesn't help. The "high and mighty" were once like me,the back yard breeder who gets a thrill out of breeding snakes --because I can! Now at some point we may find ourselves looking at this year's hatch and saying.." I wonder what they'd look like if they were (fill in color/morph)" or "I really like the saddles on my Okeetee, I wonder what a snake with those saddles but colored like my apricot pueblan would look like?" With colubrids, it's easy enough to find out. There's a problem with the "f1's" of course since they never turn out like what you're aiming for. These "ugly" hybrids are the ones that are often sold off and can cause a problem. Some of it is simply nomenclature. In an effort to "create" his own albino Honduran milks the originator came up with the Jurrassic milks. A trial and error type thing. I have not seen one that would compare to the hondurans yet though. I believe there will be a place for both pure and hybrid snakes but it is our responsibility to label/represent/sell them correctly. In my humble and honest opinion, there are not many "morphs" or hybrid snakes to compare with a normal corn snake. I have, breed and sell all sorts, but I cannot say I have improved on mother nature. Of course, I could market and sell some as "new" and "one of a kind" to someone for a ridiculous price.( P.T. Barnum -"there's a sucker born every minute" comes to mind.) Not that different from a guy selling guaranteed penis enlargement pills over the net. Buyers must assume some responsibility too. Also, even if I go out and collect a corn snake or king snake, I cannot GUARANTEE it's heritage 100%, can I? I collected 2 amel corns this year! That said, there are some snakes out there now that I'm not convinced are "pure" that are being sold as "pure". Albino FL. kings are one. Especially since I know of Cal. king and hoolbrooki blood in some of the ones years ago. Let's call an apple an apple, and an orange an orange.
:Mark

"The good looking hybrids appeal more to a larger population of herpers than a locale rosy boa, Lousiana Pine or New Jersey King. "

In my opinion, this larger population of herpers are the ones giving us all a bad name. I'm not talking hybrids here. These are the ones that are buying ball pythons from a pet store and either killing them from improper care or releasing them into their back yard. The other choise is they call up my herp society and we rescue the snake. Just because there is a market doesn't mean it is responsible to sell. My local pet store sells savannah monitors for $40 to whichever idiot has the money. That's irrresponsible. But as a friend said the other day, "At least their not selling niles." I'm not saying anything about your customers specifically but from my experience, the guy whose only snake is a jungle-corn doesn't have and doesn't want a very extensive knowledge of herps. I admit, that's a generalization.

P.S. I mostly agree with the rest of your post. Nice and civil. lol
-----
International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

In my opinion, the positions taken in the hybrid debate are usually flawed. They are flawed in that the position taken is usually an all or none proposition, either for or against the development of hybrids with little inbetween. Usually the anti-hybrid position is the most rigid if you had to compare the two.

As with many things in life, operating from an all or nothing thought process is usually not productive in the long term. Why confine yourself ??

If you had to identify one thing that has affected the advancement of herpetoculture as a science and a commercial proposition, it has been the willingness of individuals to try and do things differently than they had been done before. Many times this innovative spirit has been confronted by the status quo herp crowd mentality along the way which says "it can't be done" or "it shouldn't be done" or "it won't work", let alone the non-herp crowd summing up their opinion as simply "why do you keep reptiles, anyway"??

One example off the top of my head along these lines is in the area of herp photography. In 1994 I initiated a new approach in using high quality studio color photography of projects we were developing utilizing aquarium gravel of various colors as the background. You can guess what the response was from the all natural backgrounds in every photo crowd. Today, aquarium gravel is commonly used in photographic backgrounds and live expo displays. Why? It just turned out that the light refractory and diffusion characteristics of a correctly colored gravel that suited a particular reptile was the most ideal background for capturing the true color of a reptile. I was not a knowledgeable photographer at the time of this development but I needed a medium that would consistenly reflect true coloration of brightly colored herp varieties.

Realize that if individuals did not go it alone we would in fact still be living in a Ditmars and Carl Kauffeld world (which would suit the "oldherpers" of the world just fine, thank you very much). Kauffeld was so ahead of his time and we who are aware of his work just love what he did and wrote about. But the world Kauffeld was in knew very little about how to breed those 32 native species of rattlesnakes at the Staten Island Zoo, and why bother anyway. If you needed more it was a great reason to go back in the field and meet the challenge and excitement of collecting more.

So, what does this have to so with and where does it leave us with hybrid reptile production. No one has the answer to this, but I am and will continue to be in the middle, believing that some interesting things can be done and that with proper representation there is a bright future with unknown possibilities. One thing I know, augering in with an all one way mentality will not advance me in this process.

One more point. Contrary to the thought process that hybrid production will be regulated by Fish and Game agencies in the U.S. , the opposite is actually true. Their complete focus is on native / wild populations and hybrids (or albinos in some states for that matter) are considered "domesticated species", and not under the regulatory control of the State Fish and Game. Just look at commercial aquaculture if you need confirmation.

Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS

Steve

Your photography analogy is irrelevant to the argument and not a good analogy period. Last I looked taking a pic of an animal on some blue gravel didn’t pose any harm to other breeders projects. You successfully glazed over the real dangers hybrids pose though. Talk about rigid for you it seems to be about personal thrill and money if not what then? What middle are you referring to? The fact you breed non-hybrid animals as well? You also claim to keep meticulous records yet I think it was last year or the year before Kerby popped out an Albino from your high yellow Cal Kings. I wonder if you disclosed to Kerby that they might be possible het animals? I would think with your professional record keeping it would be known they might harbor a recessive trait. I’m sure for Kerby it was a good thing as he likes a wide variety of Cals etc… but I won’t speak for him on this. It’s just an example of how with even careful record keeping things slip through.

Keith

I bought my High Whites from Steve at the San Diego IRBA in Oct 1998. They were babies then. It was actually his wife that did the sale. I bought one and was walking around the show and everyone was commenting on how good it looked, so I went and bought another from his wife. I was happy to have them and in 2000 I bred them for the first time and I was just hoping for High Whites. The female dropped 5 eggs her first year; 3 High Whites and 2 albinos. One of the albinos was almost patternless and the other was mostly banded. Those parents have produced albinos every year until this year. This year, 9 babies and no albinos. So "the odds" don't always show up the way we want on hets. The fact that the Albino High White showed up was a bonus to me and I am in no way upset with Steve. And the fact that he (his wife) sold me 2 hets was not dishonest on his part at all, and does not necessarily mean sloppy record keeping on his part. We all know that 2 normal looking animals (one being het) are producing some het babies, BUT until they are bred together (2 hets) no one will know.

I like most breeders keep accurate records as well. When people ask if I have High Whites that ARE NOT het for albinism, I tell them that I can't guarantee that the High White I'm going to sell them IS NOT het for albinism. It's not sloppy record keeping, it's just that I know where they all originated from (parents that are het). And even if I bred two normal looking cal kings together and produce all normals DOES NOT eliminate the "possibility" of hets. Just one of the parents being het puts that gene out there. AND THEN, just like this year they produced 9 babies and NONE came out albino. I also bred two other het cal kings together (14 babies/5 albinos). A friend bred his 2 het Hondos this year and she laid 4 egss and he got 4 albinos. It can take 2 or more years of breeding "normals" to eliminate the possibility of them carrying a recessive gene.

Soooo,..... I do not believe that Steve had sloppy record-keeping at all.

Kerby...

First off, I have not said that I am against hybridization for any purpose. I personally do not favor hybrids, but that is just my opinion. If there is some valid reason (i.e., proving out flawed taxonomy) for producing hybrids, then I'm all for it. As long as the offspring are euthanized after appropriate DNA samples are obtained for further sequencing, or contained in a collection for further study not to be released to the pet trade. Once again, this is MY opinion and I AM entitled to it. I think that overall, the proliferation of hybrids in the pet trade is a dangerous precedent with far-ranging potential implications over which the pet industry has no measure of control. Now, when I say this I am speaking of TRUE HYBRIDS...not Couriosity's definition of hybrid. Once again, this is my opinion...nothing more. Some people like the idea of producing hybrids for the pet trade and some don't. I'm one of the ones that don't.

With that said, there may be some things that can be learned from producing hybrids. If this is the case, and that is the purpose of the hybridization, then by all means go for it. If it's purely for animals to sell in the pet trade, then I would only hope that you would think carefully about what you are doing and to think realistically (without the blinders that money can put on your vision)about what it can mean down the road for those that want to keep their animals pure and, in the case of Threatened or Endangered animals what it could possibly mean to wild populations. Don't be driven by ego or money.

To Bluerosy:

I have apparently angered you with my posting. If I misunderstood some of the content and direction of your original posting, I apologize. I seem to remember agreeing with you on a number of points, at least in part. Once again, I was only expressing my opinion, which may sometimes differ from yours. I don't really think we are that divergent in viewpoint. You have to understand, that where a difference of opinion exists, both parties are convinced that their opinion is right. The real answer usually lies somewhere in the middle. Without having both opposing opinions as reference points, how do you know where the middle ground lies?

To Couriosity:

As to your statement that 'most big name breeders produce hybrids": You were the one that made that statement. I challenged you to show facts. You then tried to come up with a definition of "hybrid" that would lend credence to what you were saying. I do not accept your definition of what a true hybrid is. Sorry, but I think you are incorrect. You then tried to turn the challenge around and get me to list the "big-name breeders" that DON'T produce hybrids. Sorry again, but that's not the way it works. You made the claim, not me. When you get on here and make a broad statement like that and present it as a fact and not as opinion, you have to expect to be challenged and ready to present facts. One thing that helps is to fully understand the point you are trying to argue.

To Steve:

Your quote:

Realize that if individuals did not go it alone we would in fact still be living in a Ditmars and Carl Kauffeld world (which would suit the "oldherpers" of the world just fine, thank you very much). Kauffeld was so ahead of his time and we who are aware of his work just love what he did and wrote about. But the world Kauffeld was in knew very little about how to breed those 32 native species of rattlesnakes at the Staten Island Zoo, and why bother anyway. If you needed more it was a great reason to go back in the field and meet the challenge and excitement of collecting more.

Why would you say that? I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Ditmars' and Kauffeld's work, but why would you say that being stuck in that era would suit me just fine (and the others from my generation)? Did I say something that indicated that I was not in favor of new techniques and technology? Was there something in their works that indicated that they would have been happy to stay in that era, or were they constantly looking for pieces to the puzzle? Why would you say that if people didn't go it alone, we would be stuck in that era? Do you know of some individual that singlehandedly figured out how to breed these 32 species of rattlesnakes in captivity? Or...was it a whole bunch of people working both in private collections and zoo collections and sharing information and techniques? Do you agree that basic husbandry is key and a necessary prerequisite for successful breeding? Do you agree that the Ditmars and Kauffelds of the world laid the foundations for what we know about husbandry in this age? What does producing hybrids have to do with producing naturally occurring specimens of the 32 species of Rattlesnakes in captivity in order to relieve the pressure of collecting from wild populations?

Also, as far as your story about the photography...I fail to see the point. To begin with, what you did was nothing new. Commercial and Advertising Photographers have been choosing backgrounds for contrast and light reflection/refraction properties since the beginning of the industry. I think it all depends on whether you are photographing nature or goods. If you are photographing a hybrid or morph for the purpose of displaying its colors as they would STAND OUT against its surroundings, then you would want to use your technique of finding a strongly contrasting background with the light characteristics you need. If you are trying to show a snake in its natural form and environment and how it BLENDS with its background, then you would use natural settings. At any rate, that story, although interesting, as far as I could tell had absolutely no bearing on the subject of producing hybrids or defining what constitutes a hybrid.

I respect your opinions, and I think that you probably have a lot of experience in the field. My intention is not to anger you (or anyone else) or belittle you or your accomplishments. I am simply stating my opinions and viewpoints. I am always willing to admit error if it is pointed out to me, ego is not a big thing for me. If I am in error, please point it out to me and maybe I can learn something new.

Funny how understood Steves comparison analogy and took it to mean that back in the day people will always object to something new and yet today it is widley accepted. The fact it had nothing to do with hybrids is beside the point . Instead it is the history of our recent herpetoculture and how its participants go through change.

Rainer

It was framed as a question. It wasn't necessarily that that was the way I understood it, just asking for clarification. I was trying to understand how any of that discussion related to the subject at hand. It appeared that Steve was trying to draw a parallel, and I just wasn't getting the connection. The discussion WAS about the current practices of breeding HYBRIDS, not Rattlesnakes for zoo display stock. I'm sure that Steve had a salient point there, but I missed it. If it had no bearing on the subject he was responding to, he wouldn't have put it in there. As I said in my message to Steve, if I can learn something from him (or anyone for that matter), I'm all for it...I'm not right about everything by a long shot. If someone can present a convincing argument counter to my opinions, then I will certainly consider it and if I see that they are correct, then I will embrace it. I don't believe anything just because someone says it's so, no matter who they are. I believe things I can see tangible evidence for, or at least evidence that shows convincingly that it is probably true. Some things cannot be proven to be true, but evidence can be offered to prove that ideas counter to them are not true. Sometimes it's a matter of who has the preponderance of the evidence.

In this case, I have seen several arguments against the production of true hybrids for the pet trade, but I have not seen one single argument (other than money) that this practice is good either for the animals or the pet industry or the wild populations. I've seen a couple that boiled down to "It's what we want to do.", or "We have a "right" to do this." or "Why are you picking on us.". So far nothing that convinces me that, in the long run, it's a good thing.

Steve may be a premier breeder, I'm not trying to detract from that. I don't know him or really anything about him. I am just trying to clarify, for my own purposes, what he meant by some of the things in his message. I would question anyone, no matter who they were (even Conant or Bechtel or Ditmars himself), if I didn't understand one of their points or disagreed with it. We don't learn by blindly accepting the word of other humans. I'm not into hero worshipping. I highly respect the knowledge, contributions and dedication of the "greats", but anyone can be mistaken or in error. If an error or mistaken idea is allowed to go unquestioned, then all I can say is we deserve it.

In this case, I have seen several arguments against the production of true hybrids for the pet trade, but I have not seen one single argument (other than money) that this practice is good either for the animals or the pet industry or the wild populations. I've seen a couple that boiled down to "It's what we want to do.", or "We have a "right" to do this." or "Why are you picking on us.". So far nothing that convinces me that, in the long run, it's a good thing

What is good?

I have shared an example in the past regaring the rosy boas and how the localities were crossed and the market on these went sour back in the mid 90's.

Bottom line the rosys in the wild are doing just fine. If anything hybridizing them made them less popular and less people take them from the wild.

Also I don't think its good for cows that we breed them for milk and meat.

BTW I don't ever recall anyone saying "why are you picking on us?"
But to keep the peace and preserve space I will concede that some people may have come across this way.

we are all that far apart as far as opinion of the thing as a whole.

By "good" I mean, is it going to further the hobby/trade as far as assuring that the animals that people buy are high quality and what they expect them to be (or are advertised as)? Will it enhance the captive gene pools we have to draw on or will it be deleterious in that it will tend to reduce the known pure stock? How, exactly, will it benefit us in the long run?

My discussion of wild populations has more to do with Threatened and Endangered animals. My concern, once again, is that if the animals get to a point where repatriation from captive stock is to be considered to preserve a species (in general, once wild populations are determined to be less than 1,000 animals), will we still have the pure bloodlines we need for that? This is one of the benefits of captive breeding of Endangered species. Are we going to end up destroying that by monkeying around with the genetics? There was an example given earlier regarding repatriation of Florida Panthers with animals that were not pure, as well as Pelicans. I'm not to sure that those are valid points, because at that time there was NO PURE stock available, because we didn't have the foresight to preserve any. They were repatriated with the closest thing that was available.

I fail to see the parallel between this issue and domestic cattle, chickens, hogs and whtever else that are raised for human consumption. We are eating them, not keeping them for pets or breeding them with the idea of possible repatriation of former wild populations. I frankly don't care what kind of cow the steak I'm eating came from as long as it tastes good. I'm not interested if the drumstick I will eat tomorrow came from a pre Rhode Island Red or a hybrid. That is a completely different subject.

I was just trying to get your definition of "GOOD".

I agree with the first part of your post but the second part I disagree with.

Before I get into why I disagree I would like to hear ChrisH take on this..

I have always been a #1)purist, #2)have kept locality specific and #3)hybrid animals. I divide them into 3 different groups. Possibly 4 groups.

Pure
Locality (can include natural intergrades of sub species)
hybrid

Number 4 is a natural intergrade that is reproduced in captivity by breeding the two subspecies that naturally intergrade in the wild. A wildcard that is best discussed with certain populations in mind. Example it is widly accepted for Calif kings but not eastern varities. Also the Pit group.

And possiblt a fith group which a natuarl hybrids found in the wild succh as the Yellow ratsnakes crossed with the cornsnakes..

BTW, I beleive all corns to be a hybrid cross since these animals crossed naturally. People have found pure P/P cornXYellow in the wild. What happens when these males bred to several female corns in the wild God knows how many times? Does'nt that make them all hybrids? I mean by definition a hybrid are two seperat species breding together. Whether natarally or in captivity. That was the definition givenn by you all. Or did you forget about the cornXYellow and would like to revise that definition?

I don't disagree with anything you've said in that post. I personally have never seen a verified, documented case of a Corn Snake X Yellow Rat being found in the wild. I would appreciate it if you can direct me to some valid documentation regarding that. If it is, in fact, true it does not change the basic rules of genetics and hybridization, rather it may cast some doubt on the accuracy of the current taxonomy of the two species. If they are, in fact, two separate species (as they are currently classified) then they should co-exist sympatrically.

"I fail to see the parallel between this issue and domestic cattle, chickens, hogs and whatever else that are raised for human consumption. We are eating them, not keeping them for pets or breeding them with the idea of possible repatriation of former wild populations. I frankly don't care what kind of cow the steak I'm eating came from as long as it tastes good. I'm not interested if the drumstick I will eat tomorrow came from a pre Rhode Island Red or a hybrid. That is a completely different subject".

Obviously, the domestication process of livestock animals is not solely for human consumption, and the parallel of hybridizing herps and livestock domestication not for consumption is very close, i.e. pet animals.

It would be difficult to find (if it even exists) recorded evidence of concerns over livestock domesticated breeding and it's affect on ancesteral wild populations. Why are herps different in this process?
It would be equally difficult to find evidence of individuals involved in livestock domestication concerned about reestablishing wild populations. Why are herps different in this process?
Does it all begin to make sense if there is a realization that the process of selective breeding for traits within the same reptile at the subspecies level or hybridization of herps at the species level is all part of the process known as domestication? I think it does and it has nothing to do with the wild (except as the source of the founder stock), no matter how much you want it to.

Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS

The difference is we breed cattle and other livestock for food becasue we need food to live. We breed/keep reptiles for fun or in some cases money. We dont need to breed reptiles to survive yet we need food livestock. If we ate snakes as a main food source and hybridizing them made them meater or tastier etc... then I would be all for it. Are you making Hybrids so they taste better ? Why do you breed Hybrids ? I asked Rainer this question but he was too timid to answer.

Keith

I did answer your question Keith many times in the past in so many different ways.

I really think you are missing the point that Steve is trying to make.You have done this several times and I do not think it is because you are stupid. Stubborn maybe

In a previous post I wrote the statement:

"In my opinion, the positions taken in the hybrid debate are usually flawed. They are flawed in that the position taken is usually an all or none proposition, either for or against the development of hybrids with little inbetween. Usually the anti-hybrid position is the most rigid if you had to compare the two.

As with many things in life, operating from an all or nothing thought process is usually not productive in the long term. Why confine yourself ??"

Keith,

In reducing the domestication of livestock to food products only, you have followed the all or nothing logic I wrote about above. Why?

And your question:

"Are you making Hybrids so they taste better ? Why do you breed Hybrids ? I asked Rainer this question but he was too timid to answer."

The answer is simple: For all the same reasons I keep, work with and produce all of the reptiles in our collection. Isn't it obvious? I did not see Rainer's response earlier.

Again, domestication through selective breeding or hybridization is one aspect and pursuit of herpetoculture.

Breeding for possible reintroduction is another aspect of herpetoculture. It is currently being done at least with turtles and tortoises, crocodilians and a few lizard species.

Steve Osborne
PROFESSIONAL BREEDERS

To Bluerosy:

I have apparently angered you with my posting. If I misunderstood some of the content and direction of your original posting, I apologize. I seem to remember agreeing with you on a number of points, at least in part. Once again, I was only expressing my opinion, which may sometimes differ from yours. I don't really think we are that divergent in viewpoint. You have to understand, that where a difference of opinion exists, both parties are convinced that their opinion is right. The real answer usually lies somewhere in the middle. Without having both opposing opinions as reference points, how do you know where the middle ground lies?

I was only angry when you misread or took my post out of context. I am not angry because you have a different point of veiw.