Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The problem is they are not stupid. At first I thought going after big snake people was a bold but incredibly foolhardy move.
There are lots of people with big snakes and there are a lot of people breeding them with some amazing morphs.
As a croc guy I always thought my crocs would be in jeopardy before my big snakes. I honestly thought that venemous snakes would be first on the hit list then closely followed by crocs.
After all in the publics eye is their a worst pet than a venemous snake, I doubt it. They are a much smaller group of keepers. They don't generate near the income. And even to a lot of keepers venemous keepers are out there.(currently I have several rattlesnakes and cottonmouths, a couple of cobras, and a puff. I'm not a huge venemous guy but I keep some).
But my point is if ball python owners can't relate to big snake keepers they have absolutely no use for venemous keepers.
Here is the brillant part.
Venemous snakes are'nt taking over the Everglades and wreaking havoc on local wildlife. It was'nt a venemous snake that supposedly killed a 2 yr old girl in FL.
Look at all the support generated by these 2 events. You have conservationist, and you have family safety groups.
There is a huge diverse group of people that are influenced by the burmese.
Could all the same be said about venemous?
Absolutely, but they are not imported and bred in the same numbers. And they don't show up in numbers in peoples yards.
This was a brillant move and the AR groups know that after this fight venemous and croc keepers will be easy pickings. D.C.

I've been thorough this before with no results, but I'll try again. Can we please drop the "Pet" moniker? It is the silver bullet in the AR Crowd's gun. Crocks are pets only in the very loosest terms of the word. It is definitely a stretch. Same as "Pet Tarantula" and "Pet Rattlesnake". Has more of an ironically humorous connotation. Just an attention getter in my opinion.

Sure it has been fine for marketing and for sales over the years, but realistically we are just feeding our opponents ammunition for their big propaganda guns every time we us the term "Pets" to describe these animals.

As in, "These animals don't make good pets". Yes, but they do make interesting and mind expanding display animals. These are artificially maintained captive wild type animals, in most cases captive born for generations, and with many many different genetic aesthetically pleasing intentionally manipulated genetic traits, over the span of generations.

I prefer the term "Living Art" over "pets". I'm sure we can come up with something better than "Pets". "Pets" is killing us right now.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I'd still like to see proof that they are "wreaking havoc" in the glades. Considering that pythons eat much less frequently than mammals, you'd think that would have been touched on by now. And don't get me started on that "no natural predators" nonsense.

I guess I should have put taking over the Everglades and wreaking havoc on the local wildlife in " marks.
My apologies.
If you archived the Burm forum I think you'll see NOBODY has "gotten started" more on the "no natural predator lie" than me. D.C.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. Sorry you thought I was.

.....that are actual natural predators that occur in asia and in the everglades. Feral pigs are of Eurasian origin and occur within the range of burms in southeast asia. They are definitely a snake predator as they do a hell of a job on EDB populations here in Fl.
Cattle egrets are the other one. They are originally from africa but they do occur worldwide in the tropics to my knowledge. They absolutely a snake predator and while it is true that they would only be able to consume newborn burms I am sure they get their share of any that are left after the freeze.
On the subject of birds all of the large water birds prey on snakes as do hawks. I have watched hawks go after snakes before (as well as legless lizards) it is very interesting to watch them jump up and down on the ground until their prey surfaces so they can get it.
There is one behavior I do have yet to see though. I have not yet observed any birds pulling out their copy of "A Field Guide to Reptiles and Amphibians of the United States" in order to see if the snake or legless lizard they were about to consume was in fact a native species and thus proper for them to eat. In fact I see lots of birds go after Brown Anoles which every good bird should know is not native and obviously not part of their proper diet.
If anyone has seen birds utilizing a field guide to identify their prey I'd really like to hear about your observations.

I'm pretty sure Owls are big snake eaters. I understand they are just another bird of prey. However, they are active and hunting at night, same a smaller Burms. Don't know what the large Owl population in S. Florida is.

I've almost hit them when they've scooped up snakes right in front of me, while I've been road hunting, back when it was legal here in TX.

Wonder if they chase the Wood Rat meal with a Python or if they chase the Python meal with a Wood rat?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The Burm also lacks a Field Guide which in my opinion means when an opportunistic predator like a snake is found with Key Largo wood rats in his stomach as opposed to some other appropriate size meal. Clearly the rat is not as endangered as some thought.
He, the rat, is not a Dodo bird I'm assuming he is evasive as any other rat. D.C.

I'm all for a better word than pets.
I've used captive in the past but to be honest that has a bad connatation.
I need a word that expresses how I feel when I walk by one of my croc enclosures. they are laying out basking with their mouth agape. I just stop and stare.
Are they "doing" anything? No not really.
Do they like me? No not really.
Yet I feel privledged, humbled,honored, even blessed.
Find me a word that descibes that. D.C.

I use the term "pets" to refer to animals that you can be affectionate with and "display animals" for the rest.

Another term that is commonly used is "companion animals".

It's why I never name my snakes. They aren't my pets. My cat is, however.

Or maybe I'm her pet. Hard to tell.

I once heard of someone whos family pediatrician turned him into the police for child abuse because he had ball pythons.
So when I go to the pediatrician with my children they ALWAYS ask any pets? We answer no, even though... well we figure they arent kept in the house and arent mammals. Any how my wife was there with my daughter and they asked any pets? And my wife said no, and the Pediatrician said good, Some of those big snakes are killing children like that one in Central Florida. Of course I think my wife was glad she said no at that point.

Another example is a nice older lady who walks her dog by our yard. My little girl LOVES dogs and always runs out to pet her dog. One day my wife was talking with her and the older lady says, have you seen those giant snakes in the Everglades that are making their way here? They are eating pets and are very dangerous I am very nervous. My wife said she told her I dont think you have anything to worry about. She told me people really dont have a clue about these animals do they? Any how just two stories fueled by the media.

Very good points, Stuart! I won't post any photos of small children with snakes draped around their necks - regardless of the type of snake - on my website for similar reasons.

Perhaps, if we are successful in our efforts to defeat all these attempts to ban our "pets", by educating legislators and the general public about the true nature of these animals we can finally come out of the closet and also get a lot more people interested in this hobby.

The AR Movement has been pursuing the same agenda for almost 40 years. Are they brilliant? Well, maybe, but it took them 40 years to get to where they are now.

Their biggest weakness is that their whole position is based on lies and deception, which, admittedly, they've been very good at. However, I believe the tide is turning against them for two reasons: (1) we're in the "Information Age" and it's becoming increasingly difficult to perpetuate a lie or a deception and (2) I believe they've become impatient, have gotten reckless and have overextended themselves with too many simultaneous issues to deal with.

I believe the following saying applies, "If you live by the sword, you shall die by the sword", and in this case, the "sword" is the media.

Good point. I never thought of the term "reptile nation" as being seen in a negative light. While the term rallies all reptile enthusiasts, it possibly alienates everyone else.
Hmmmm.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

>>I think "reptile community" would rally just as many people, but without the negatives. (In fact, "community" might win us more sypathy. Communities seem like nice happy people who live a few blocks over. Not invaders from another country.)
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I agree. But whatever we call it, imo this is all just another symptom of the real problem - a broken government that is not protecting individual citizens from "special interest" groups.
What exactly is a "special interest" group anyway? Wouldn't "Reptile Nation" or "Reptile Community" be a "special interest" group? Are "special interest" groups good or bad??

I always call them specimens in my collection.I am big time venomous small time crocs I would love to change that around but room constraints stop me.
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Archie Bottoms

I refer to the animals in my care as my charges. Because I am charged with the responsibility of providing and maintaining the best quality of life for those in my care.
Charges can be your children, a dog/cat, a farmer's livestock, or a warden's inmates and convicts. Whatever is directly dependant upon you to live.
Like momma said. "Can't feed itself, boy. That's why it eats before you do." And my supper was on hold til it was fed.

I actually like the word charges but I would'nt like having to explain it to everyone.
We have to be careful with the word because most of our charges are kept in cages.A fact some compare to being in jail. Oddly enough most people don't look at fish as being caged. After all something has to hold the water in.D.C.

I get the impression they are finding a high percentage of Alligator remains in Pythons that they're not reporting.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

There are way to many gators in florida any way pythons are doing a job to help the population control.
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Archie Bottoms

There are not way too many gators in Fl. There are way too many people. The problem is lots of people come here from N.Y. and New Jersey where they don't have alligators. They complain about the gators. What they don't realize is that I-95 is not a one way road. They need to get back on it and go the hell home if they think there are too many gators.

I know that I was trying to be coy.The fact is that there is to much wild life that gets in the way of man and his plan to rule earth.If we could learn that these animals all have a place in the wild as well as in captivity and not just zoos we would be makeing progress.This python issue is only a band wagon fear mongering platform to make news .I do not think any of them give a damn about it at all but it makes the news.All I am saying is so what if a gator gets eaten so will the pythons it is good gator protien and a solid gator turd.
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Archie Bottoms

Yes. It's all about habitat loss and degradation, not Pythons.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Ain't that the truth.
Funny Story, my neighbor is trying to sell her house. My alligator enclosure is in plain view of her property. A couple from NYC came to look at the house and was gushing about how perfect it was. Then she saw the alligators. The husband explained that she has a phobia for alligators and that this was a deal breaker. Then the lady comes back out side and asks if I have permits for the alligators.
Of course I have permits, but it struck me funny how I have lived here all of my life and some northerner comes down and wants to move next to me and demands to see proof that what I am keeping is legal. Like if I was not legal, she would report me so that the alligators would be gone and they could buy the property.
I told her if she has a fear of alligators, Florida might not be the best place to move to.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

I couldn't sell my old house until I moved the snakes out.

I lost a house to a repo my son the joker left a rattlesnake shed comeing out of the closet the realters and bank near gutted the house as well as fumigated it for reptiles then were going to sue me for the cost.I was lucky I had animal control on my side and the case was dropped.Just think how that story would play out today .This was 10 years ago.The rumor on the block was I fed all of the cats around the area to my crocs as well.My ex wife had like 15 cats and if any thing they ate my crocs.I came in one day to find one of my caimen missing in the back yard.I was in the the house I noticed the kittens playing with something flopping around.There was my caimen no legs still totaly alive.The kat had wounded prey to feed her kittens.I of course had to put it down just sad.
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Archie Bottoms