Reptile & Amphibian Forums

because so many people probably miss FR's posts or newbies don't know who he is. i wish they had stickies on this forum.

or just click on all of FR's posts.

On proper nesting (pre-laying techniques)

For instance, wild eggs are clumped up, that is, in a tight ball. The females curl with their vents on the inside and heads on the outside and deposit their eggs as they slowly circle around. This places the eggs in a tight ball and it creates a space between the eggs and the substrate.

In captivity, you often see eggs scattered all over a box. That is wrong. That means the female DUMPED her eggs. Not nested them. To you thats fine as long as the eggs hatch, to me it means it stressed the beans out of the female.
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www.Bluerosy.com

This is a great post and thank you Rainer for reposting it because I must have missed it when FR posted it the first time. It seems like all of my WC Floridas lay perfect, large, clumped clutches. Some of the best clutches that I have are from smaller WC girls. I am trying out some new nesting set-ups for my females and so far they seem to be liking them way better than just a box with some moss in it.

I have to play devils advocate. We can't be sure that snakes in nature lay perfect bricks everytime? How can we possibly know that? I admit that a scattered clutch could very well indicate something is wrong but how can we determine what is the problem. I have often wondered if we are breeding away some of the snakes inherrant instincts by generation after generation of selective breeding. As mentioned before temperment is inherrited from the parents and well so may other traits like nest building. We select snakes for their awesome colors and patterns but what if we are inadvertantly also choosing some of the worse breeding traits as well. This may have more to do with selective breeding and captive life rather than husbandry. I wonder the same thing about egg binding.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Every clutch I ever found in the field were in perfect clutches.....All stuck together......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

But how mant clutches did you not find?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

How "many"...I really have to proof read before I post.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>But how mant clutches did you not find?

All the rest.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Every clutch I ever found in the field were in perfect clutches.....All stuck together......

I've never found a clutch of king eggs in the wild so i'd love to hear more about your observations. Were they found under artificial cover? buried in sawdust piles? TDell me more!

td

>>>>Every clutch I ever found in the field were in perfect clutches.....All stuck together......
>>
>>I've never found a clutch of king eggs in the wild so i'd love to hear more about your observations. Were they found under artificial cover? buried in sawdust piles? TDell me more!

All the clutches I have found in the field can be counted on my hands.....
There is one place here in Nueces County Texas that I have found three clutches of Meahlmorum Ratsnake eggs on three different occasions.......All under some tin where it was in the shade and moist........Where a group of Gulf Coast Toads live........And some Narrow Mouth toads/frogs.......Probably some first meals for them.....

I have found a couple Splendida clutches and a few ground snake clutches in leaf litter under oak trees....again....In the shade where it was moist/humid......

A buddy of mine (Todd Hughes) found some Holbrooki eggs in a clutch under some artificial cover too....again in the shade and moist......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I found empty clutches stuck together. I guess I am always to late.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>I found empty clutches stuck together. I guess I am always to late.
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>>www.Bluerosy.com

thanks for reminding me. I HAVE encountered that. and it's logical, i guess: a "live" clutch is on/in the ground for what, 60-70 days. But an empty clutch could persist for a year or more. So the odds are 6:1 or greater that you'd find an old clutch rather than a good one.

You don't have to prove that snakes that snakes do things to hurt themselves. Does a snake not seek food? Does a snake dehydrate itself? Does a snake dump her eggs all over the place?

Nesting is an important process. With a large breeding colony that I have been maintaining it is obvious what is forming "natural" behavior. ..well at least healthy behavior, as we try to come as close to emulating it as possible.

When i started providing better nest sites i noticed the snakes don't wait 10 or more days to lay aftwer a shed.

Sometimes these nest sites still don't work. Could be high acidity or the snake just was not comfortable for a number of reasons. That is the part we have to figure out. When we do the snake tells us and we are all happy.

Just today i had a snake not lay in her "nest box" and her eggs were scattered all over the place except where I suggested she lay. Then i noticed she was quite plump. I felt 8 eggs in her stomach. It was a large clucth and she left me with 8 eggs. So it WAS a total clucth of sixteen.

Point is whatever that snake did not like about her nest box, s, she held onto her eggs past the 10 days and then she ate them. She was also a very fat and healthy female that just at 3 days prior to egg laying.

nesting is a new word for herpetoculturists. The 'old lay box' and 10 day wait is just as bad info as the care sheets on colubrids.

Snakes need to nest. most will lay sooner than 10 days after shed. Use a method that seems healthy. That to me is natiral. Not egg binding, waiting 10 days after shed and eating their own eggs.

And certainly scattered eggs make no sense whatsover. Because if they did that in nature ("dumped their eggs" their eggs would not survive. Animals would find them and eat them. They would be open to the elements,,etc.. See it all make sense. Clumped clucthes are good. Scattered =bad husbandry.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer said, "Does a snake not seek food? Does a snake dehydrate itself? Does a snake dump her eggs all over the place?

Snakes eat their own eggs and sometimes their mates. But the main point I wanted to state or ask is; Do you think that maybe we are unkowingly selecting snakes that are not good breeders? Remember most of the snakes we love would probably have very little chance of surviving in the wild. But besides that, could we be breeding for visiual traitas and perpetuating other undesirable traits?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Hi,

I don't believe that we are selecting for bad breeders. I think that the reproductive instincts that evolved in these animals are pretty hard wired. They instintively know and require a certain basic set of standards that are necessary in order to recruit another generation. When I provide acceptable conditions early (when I first suspect the female is gravid) they nest without stress and, as Rainer said, deposit there eggs within days of shedding in a nice pile. The same formula seems to work with all of the herps that I've kept, if you actively support timely, appropriate nesting, reproduction is not the stressful, or even dangerous series of events that we sometimes make it out to be.

I think physical attributes are much easier for us to genetically manipulate simply because these traits need to be fluid in order for the species (population) to adapt to changing environmental conditions. I think reproduction is much more deeply hard wired.

Will

I think you have a good point but as Rainer and others have said here before, temperment is determined by the disposition of the parents or at least it has a big role. Now I personally have not had snakes scatter eggs all over the cage unless the cluth was bad to begin with. But Rainer and FR say they have and I believe Rainer said he just had one very recently do it and I assume he is taking all the right precautions. The English Bulldog comes to mind when discussing this topic because there you have an animal that can no longer procreate without human intervention. I realize that is a totally man made dog so to speak but the theory is the same. How many breeders choose animals because they are good breeders even if it is an ugly animal? Probably not many. We choose animals that have that star quality and as we see in humans hollywood stars don't make the best parents. Cough, Charlie Sheen Cough, cough. I think it is very possible that we perpetuate undesirable traits because of our practices. Another animal that comes to mind is one of the Ball Python morphs which is associated with a head wabble, oh and the Lucistic Black rat with tendencies for bug eyes. I know these are more physical traits but as I mentioned many agree disposition is in the genes of the parents.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

What about the crazy snake that lays her eggs in the water bowl? Is the nest box such a bad set up that the snake chooses the water bowl over the clear nest box with spagnum? I think that for the most part most snakes lay in the best site they can find which will USUALLY be the nest box we offer. Maybe in the small percentage that choose another spot or eat their eggs it is not because they know better but because there is something not right with that snake! If i have 20 females and 19 lay in their box but one eats her eaggs or lays in the water, isn't that a staetment about the one abnormal snake? I don't think we can say it is husbandry. I did learn somethings in this whole debate though and I that Rainer for bringing it back up. I think usuing dark nest boxes is a definate better option than using the clear ones. I guess I'll have to spray paint all mine black, lol. But again the clear ones works 99.9% of the time for me.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I was going to post this before. I have had snakes with no "choices" lay a perfect clutch on plexiglass, and I have had a cage set up with as many "choices" I could think of....and she ate her eggs. If FR comes out and tells us the whole truth I think the evidence will point to the fact that the only thing these snakes have in common is that they are female. As a single guy I say all the time, "all guys are the same, every woman is different"...and would bet that humans arent alone in this. Guys like Tony D arent thinking right now about their 19 good years of snake breeding....only THIS year and its problems. Truth is it could be natures way of covering for the El Nino events or other environmentally catastrophic breeding seasons. Maybe the correct answers were just incompatible with husbandry this year.

That is a very bad analogy, a bull dog is physically deformed. And inbred for thousands of generations.

We have snakes that for all intends and purposes, are out of shape versions of the wild counterparts, with a different color and pattern.

ALso as mentioned, the same nesting problems occur with founders or wild caught animals. Cheers

So you don't think that our selective breedings is inadvertantly perpetuating bad side effects? The Bulldog is not the best example I agree but if we can affect temperment then I think it safe to say othet attributes are being affected also. I personally don't get many problems with egg laying except the ocassional egg binding over the years. What about that 20th snake? Are we supposed to think there is something wrong with us or the snake?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

This is so easy to look at, please don't take offense, but if you look at what YOU/we do for nesting, and compare it to what they do in nature, there is nothing similar with the possible exception of humidity and temps. Is that enough?

Our nesting is not the same materials, not the same placement, remember most nesting animals, are very prejudiced as to WHERE they place their nests/eggs. Actually very little for the animal to recognize.

I know I am being a bit of a punk, but you guys get so in to yourselfs. I bet if you opened your cage your snake would not lay in the container provided, but CHOOSE to go elsewhere and lay its eggs. The next thought in your head would be, I don't know why the snake chose to leave and lay somewhere else. You would say, I offered a nest box. No, you offered a BOX, the snake did not call it a nest box, you did. They choose to do something else and most here call the snakes stupid. If your nest box is so good, your snake would have chose to lay in it and not left.

Now consider, your talking about 20 clutches, these snakes have been happily successfully nesting for thousands of years, and totally without you or your nest box. They do so by choosing where to put their eggs.

Now consider, these snakes are the SUBJECT of our interest. They are the real deal. What they do is suppose to be what "we" are interested in.

I know folks each have their reasons for keeping snakes, I keep them because I am interested in the snakes. So I want to learn what the snakes do. Many here want to control an animal and make it do what they want it to do, I am not interested in those folks, good on them. Others here are interested in the snakes, but learn from caresheets, like the caresheets are gospel, Well caresheets can be anything from really poor to OK, but they are not the animal. The animal is gospel. They are the subject. A caresheet is a loose guide at best.

You mentioned eggbinding as if its trivial. Imagine if you were eggbound. how trivial would that be? One important way to understand animals is this, THEY DO NOT WHINE like we do, they do not complain until it effects their lifes. So by the time we NOTICE something, its advanced. So your occasional eggbinding was only the tip of the iceburg.

Anyway, enough ranting, but I will ask, why do you think these animals are suppose to know what you provide, when its totally foreign to them, consider, they do not have schools or books, or TV, they only have what nature provides and they exist in places that provide what each species/individual needs, if not, they perish. Thats what they understand, the things in their environment, What we offer is a facsimile. How close is questionable, and is judged by quality of their results. Stressing them is not quality results.

The reality is, they are EXPERT, in recognizing what they need. Heck, they can find it out in a field. Cheers

THIS is why I come here.

I find this stuff SO helpful.

On my own I struggle along. Some things have worked out great,some not so great. Folks like Frank and the rest of you that have a lot of good experience are a wonderful resource to tap.

Like most everybody here, I'm open to do things better. I may like keeping some animals in simplistic set ups but I'm open to trying some things out on some of my animals in an effort to be a better keeper for ALL of them.

Thanks everybody.
Bob.

I also agree. But do notice FR talks about "snake" singular, not "snakes" plural. Offering options and trying different things with some of your snakes will certainly help some of them, but may be detrimental to others. FR doesnt like me and my scientific method, but I am more intersted in methods that keep the majority of my snakes stress free and healthy. I'm not foolish enough not to realize sweeping generalizations on caresheets work on every animal, but I suggest most of us havent got the time to get "into" our captives the way FR does. He is a great resource and if he got a ghost writer I'd read his book. And I've said it before and dont mean to harp on it, but I really think most of us could LEARN more about FRs failures than his successes. It would also give us a better look into his creative ideas.

If you didn't say such goofy things. Dude, I have kept and produced more SNAKES, then I bet you have seen, IN your entire life.

Your not being scientific, your being silly. And your not being a biologist, a biologist is SUPPOSE to ask questions, seek answers, then do it again and again. To be Pragmatic, not stagnate, or to force animals into a totally artificial regime with no choice. A Robot is closer to what your acting like. But hey, I like robots, Robbie was cute.

I am sorry, I do like you, you like to play. Cheers

Building a foundation of knowledge you dont do a bunch of different things hoping they work. You dont tear a wall down without knowing how to rebuild it. Knowledge is gained in small regulated steps, block by block. My knowledge of why things have worked for me I've learned from both reading and doing myself. My goal in keeping snakes is not the same one I have at work. Your goal is obviously different. I dont see the value of individual behavior observation because I dont think all snakes are the same, and what works for snake A might not for snake B. These are not pets, and I dont go for long walks with them. They are specimens and I do the best I can for them as a whole(not individuals) within the scope of my life, my priorities, and my time. I havent bred or caught a million snakes because I live in a harsher climate and have a job that doesnt allow for it. This is not a contest. But I notice things, I observe, I remember things people post who claim to know more than me. This is how I collect knowledge. I asked you questions why in one post you claim that you have witheld water from a king and in another you claim that gravid females need plenty of water. Sorry if this comes out wrong, I dont mean it badly. But on the forum I think the information, the people and the honesty is more important than even the snakes.

I get what you are saying but there is something that still just doesn't sit right with me. I said I had a couple of egg bounds in years of breeding. It always depresses me and makes me try to do better. However my point is that if you have a 90 plus success rate than you must be doing something right. The one or two animals that react abnormal when compared to the others snakes kept in the same manner, are saying something. They are saying there is something different with them than the other 90 plus percent of snakes like them. I'm not trying to counter every thing you say. I have come away from this with some fressh Ideas, but a lot of what you say doesn't sound reasonable. Open you cage and see if the snake doesn't escape, come on?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

np

"The females curl with their vents on the inside and heads on the outside and deposit their eggs as they slowly circle around."

I'm very interested in knowing how many times Frank has observed this behavior with wild snakes.

Tim

Nesting.

THis was done in a deep container, the kings will make a nesting burrow, go down underground where its dark and secure. In this case, I place a piece of glass about six inches down. They create a nesting burrow, lay their eggs in the middle, after a couple days, leave the nest, cover the entrance. This is NORMAL nesting behavior.

You can see the defined line of the substrate and a space between the eggs and the substrate. This matches the nests of kings I have seen.

Some species or populations prefer to nest between two clean hard surfaces, in that case you can use two pieces of glass, spaced about the height of the snake apart. And no, you do not have to make a space the snakes do that.

In the old days(before kings were kings, in captivity) we had to learn some things and finding nests was one of them. Pyros and greeri, often have several females(as many as 6 to 10) in one nest. Thayeri normally nestings by themselves in a burrow.

Their eggs looked like the one I posted.

Each species has a preference as to substrate type and material type. Once you learn the what and how and when, nests are not that hard to find.

For instance, you southern folks know just how many specks can be found in one spot, now guess how many nests are in that spot? None you say? cause you cannot find them. Well sirs, thats wrong, there are lots and they can be found with some understanding of what they do. Am I going to tell anyone how to do it, Heck no. All that does is harm the snakes. The reason I am saying this much is, knowing about nesting can benefit CAPTIVE snakes.

Now take that understanding and apply it to captives. Without question, you can duplicate their nests and do so to the benefit of the snake. Yes, its a tad more work for us.

It looks like regular potting soil....is that correct?
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Thats potting soil mixed with sand. I also like that coco stuff, mixed with sand.

I hope I can fine some other pics showing more. If I do I will post them. Cheers

Ahhhh yeah, the shredded coconut husk material. Makes for some nice textured material for the critters to work with. Funny, but I've also thought about zonata egg ovipositioning........and making something beneficial for them to utilize as opposed to a small box with sphagnum. I've yet to hear about anyone locating a clutch of zonata eggs within an outcrop..........one can imagine though. I've always had a clump of eggs deposited, never dispersed around the cage. So the psychological comforts are there to some degree.

It's an impertive responsibility to read behavioral responses to even slightly maladaptive conditions -- and often this is overlooked until a big sign is expressed.......and it's key to look for these signs. Nature can never be fully replicated, and what a responsibility we have in providing the best we can with what's available. In the larger, more metaphorical scheme of things, it's like a cup of sand compared to the whole beach......but we endeavor!
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Also as Bluerosy mentioned, you can go to the next step and measure the time from shedding. When I discovered this method(by accident) it was because, I HAD TO BE IN THE FIELD(blairs) during the time my snakes were dropping eggs. So I developed a method of large deep nests(a nesting cage as opposed to a nesting box) so that I could go snake hunting and still breed snakes.

When I started to test the nesting cage, we saw that females were dropping their eggs successfully the night after their shed. Of course not all did, but the time of holding the eggs was always less then five days from shedding.

The other benefit was, when the females dropped the eggs quickly, they lost no weight. They were not skinny(dehydrated) they simple lost the weight of the eggs.

This was KEY in allowing all the females to multiclutch.

You and I(and others) know that each day that passes from the shed, the females lose condition and weight. Each day past the fifth or sixth day, they lose get sick looking. In the old days, or the old way of thinking, people thought that was a GOOD sign, you know, my female has lost weight and is skinny and her backbone is sticking out, yea, shes ready.

I remember reading one old care sheet. IT said, when the females are V backed, they are so skinny their backbone sticks out, and they look like an upside down V. That they are ready to lay, so remove the water bowl, so she will not lay in the water. Sir, that is torture.

Many here still remove the water bowl, which is torture, This is telling about their nesting options. Cheers

I remember reading one old care sheet. IT said, when the females are V backed, they are so skinny their backbone sticks out, and they look like an upside down V. That they are ready to lay, so remove the water bowl, so she will not lay in the water. Sir, that is torture.

Many here still remove the water bowl, which is torture, This is telling about their nesting options

Aother good point that I overlooked and nobody else brings up.

I have never had a snake lay in it water bowl.

It was very common on "caresheets" as well as so called "experts" to tell one to remove the water bowls during pre laying. That is when they need to drink the most.

It is ridiculous how much bad info this hobby supports. I still get the same questions on temps requirement, scheduled feeding etc. all these so called recipes for successful breeding/keeping which is the exact opposite of what people should do. It would be better if no info from pet shops and others were never given. Then the captive snake has a better chance with just pure common sense~
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www.Bluerosy.com

"I have never had a snake lay in it water bowl."

Nor have I but I've heard of it so out comes the bowl. A lot of practises come to be in this way which is a good reason to question them time to time. This one in my opinion isn't such a big deal given its for a short time and the female has the option to conserve moisture by staying in a hi humidity nest.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

FR, tell me if I'm wrong or misremembering again,lol. Didnt you post here a few years ago that you kept your kings WITHOUT water of any kind saying they got all their water from their food? Not starting anything, but I swear I remember you saying that, and of course it could have been a different situation as well...Thanks, J

Well what your doing is remembering or Changing what I say into something you wanted to hear.(i think)(you can never be sure with behavior)hahahahahahahahaha actually heck

What I said, was, I was told by a field biologist that most snakes(around here) the vast majority, do not have drinking water. He said, most conserve moisture and mainly obtain water through their food.(somewhere in the early seventies)

So I tested that theory and he was correct, properly kept, they have no need for drinking water. They not only do well They maintain a better fluid balance and digest prey much more efficently.

So yes, I keep them with as little dehydration as possible, but do offer water once in a while.

One trait seen on these forums is the A to Z syndrome. People somehow argue and think in a way of all or nothing, water no water, choices or no choices, natural or totally not, etc etc. Sir, its never A or Z, and better then that, no one ever said, do it all or do nothing.

All I bring to the table is, there are many ailments that can easily be prevented by exploring the middle ground. One way I use to explain this is, we build walls to keep our animals from progressing, so a common thought is, tear the wall down. I say, remove a brick at a time and the animals will do the rest. In most cases, you only have to remove one or two bricks and the animals will take over and do what it needs to do.

That approach is exactly how and why I have so many world first breedings. I did not get all complicated. I removed one brick at a time.

Back to the subject, eggbinding is totally preventable with proper nesting(not superior), dehydration and its many symtoms are also preventable, basic immune system problems like respitory ailments, mouthrot, etc etc(gram-negative wonders) are preventable, with simple temperature choices. Of course, things like pair bonding are behavioral and not physical and much much harder to understand, I like to challenge you "experts" with behavioral problems and cures. To me this area is the most fun. Like answer this, if kings ate eachother every time they saw eachother, they why are their kings? If snakes ate their eggs, they the same question applies, why are there kings, as who knows better where the eggs are, then females that laid them. Cheers

Well what your doing is remembering or Changing what I say into something you wanted to hear.(i think)(you can never be sure with behavior)hahahahahahahahaha actually heck

FR-I have followed many of your recent posts because I dont have time to read everyone...yet I try to read yours to try and learn something "new".

What I said, was, I was told by a field biologist that most snakes(around here) the vast majority, do not have drinking water. He said, most conserve moisture and mainly obtain water through their food.(somewhere in the early seventies)

FR-so I was right. We all like to be right,lol.

So I tested that theory and he was correct, properly kept, they have no need for drinking water. They not only do well They maintain a better fluid balance and digest prey much more efficently.

FR-Do you remember if you tested this during breeding season?

So yes, I keep them with as little dehydration as possible, but do offer water once in a while.

FR-That makes no sense at all to me? Anyone else??

One trait seen on these forums is the A to Z syndrome. People somehow argue and think in a way of all or nothing, water no water, choices or no choices, natural or totally not, etc etc. Sir, its never A or Z, and better then that, no one ever said, do it all or do nothing.

FR-There is the way that its written, there is a way we all do it, and then there is the FR way. Those of us that do read you, that do remember correctly, want to believe that you arent intentionally misleading the whole forum for your own kicks. Its not a all or nothing debate.

All I bring to the table is, there are many ailments that can easily be prevented by exploring the middle ground. One way I use to explain this is, we build walls to keep our animals from progressing, so a common thought is, tear the wall down. I say, remove a brick at a time and the animals will do the rest. In most cases, you only have to remove one or two bricks and the animals will take over and do what it needs to do.

FR-And its for info like that that I read you. I just want to make sure I am building a wall not a septic tank.

That approach is exactly how and why I have so many world first breedings. I did not get all complicated. I removed one brick at a time.

FR-The bricks arent there any more, its difficult to comprehend.

Back to the subject, eggbinding is totally preventable with proper nesting(not superior), dehydration and its many symtoms are also preventable, basic immune system problems like respitory ailments, mouthrot, etc etc(gram-negative wonders) are preventable, with simple temperature choices. Of course, things like pair bonding are behavioral and not physical and much much harder to understand, I like to challenge you "experts" with behavioral problems and cures. To me this area is the most fun. Like answer this, if kings ate eachother every time they saw eachother, they why are their kings? If snakes ate their eggs, they the same question applies, why are there kings, as who knows better where the eggs are, then females that laid them. Cheers

FR-I fear your observations to be anecdotal. Behavior can be very individual, observing an individual gives you very little information in the scope of the "choices" and other environmental factors. Your accumulation of anecdotal info has to be vast, and I wish you would share your failures with us as much as your successes. To have that many successes you have had to have more failures than anyone too! The sharing of info, both good and bad, is always helpful here. You have more bricks than any of us, help us build the wall back up the right way this time!! Stop tearing it down! Who knows better than the female where the eggs are?? Well the ideal would be ALL OF US. Riddler, am I right?

OUCH! That's a lot of reading.
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www.Bluerosy.com

FR, my following your posts is a compliment to you. We havent been bashin in a while and I do try to get all your points. I dont want you or anyone else to think this last follow was anything more than simple questions. I'm not being confrontational, just needed clarity comparing that post to the other one mentioned. The admission that you had a snake "nest badly" was honest, and that other nesting info helpful, Thanks.

these are great observations but I think there might be another issue at work perticularly with older established lines.

Nesting behavior, I believe, is a function of instinct and proper conditions. I've seen snakes coil around and form nice clutches outside of any nest box and I've seen them throw off eggs in what has proven adiquate for other snakes in the collection, even those of the same species. This makes me wonder if some of these snakes don't loose the instinct to nest becasue they've gone through several generations of not having too!

Thoughts?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

interesting thought, I was just wondering if the conditions that the snakes hatch have something to do with where they look to nest, kind of like imprinting with rivers and Salmon. Turtles are known for this type of behavior too. I wonder if other nesting reptiles could have some type of imprinting for nesting conditions. The females are looking for something close where they came from (hatched). Anyway that just jumped at me after reading your post, don't know if there is any reason other than speculation.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Your right, there is no ONE problem. Our captive conditions cause a bundle of problems. There are physical problems, to wet, to dry, the key here is, dry and humid, most reptile eggs, are laid in places that are dry and humid. Consider, wet does is not humid. Wet cages can kill these captive snakes, humid cages is great for them. DRY AND HUMID.

Also, as mentioned, there are many many many stages at which failure can occur, no sperm, immobile sperm, dead sperm, live sperm that dies in the male, live sperm that dies in the female, Zygotes that die before egg deposition, all of this effects how the female will nest or not. And it have nothing to do with a proper nesting area, it has to do with healthy females and eggs.

If you have the healthy females(and the eggs she is carrying), then you can expect them to make proper choices.

To hot, to cold, etc etc. even things like smells. Like chemical smells can and does prevent normal behavior.

Behavior, behavior, behavior. A test I did many years ago. once I learned about proper nesting. I found there was more. Snakes would pick nests that they had already laid in, over a "NEW" nest. Even if the conditions were not so good. The nest step was, they would choose a nest another snake had laid in, over a "new" nest.

And yes, its easy to test. Of course, with behavior, you have individual variation and species variation. But there is not question, you can see these trends easily.

About these inbreeding and line breeding, naw, like with any genetic information animals store and inherit. Some are fluid and some are solid. Because successful nesting is mandatory, its a fairly stable gene set. Things like color and pattern are very very loose. They change and migrate like the wind.

Consider, you effect the organs, skeleton, etc, you will receive a very quick ending to your line. The same goes for key survival behaviors.

Consider, animals like DOGS, mice, even crickets, have been imbred/line bred for many traits for tens of thousands of generations and they are still dogs and mice and crickets and do what dogs mice and crickets do.

Its funny, but don't you think those excuses are some sort of rationalization? While there is the very slimest of chances that those behaviors could be lost(with these animals) why does this occur with even wild caughts????????????????????????? Cheers

"About these inbreeding and line breeding, naw, like with any genetic information animals store and inherit. Some are fluid and some are solid. Because successful nesting is mandatory, its a fairly stable gene set. Things like color and pattern are very very loose. They change and migrate like the wind."

The reason I thought of this was because I used to breed South American Ciclids. Some of the more popular spieces lost the instinct to properly nest and brood because breeders got better survival rates rearing the fry away from the parents, hence good breeding behavior was not selected for. It was a shame because behavior was a big part of the lure to keeping the fish. In any case if fish could loose the instinct I reason that so could snakes.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Hmmmmmmm. This is an easy one, its because they are a burrower and not a crevice dweller. They use rock outcrops to thermoregulate when the ground temps are too cool for their needs. Or too wet. When the ground becomes wet, they will move to higher secure places. In certain areas, rock outcrops, are used. Then they move back into the earth after the ground temps warm up or dry out.

Just for fun, does a zonata head look like a crevice dweller head, say a lyresnake. So why not?

Take pyros, they have a flatter head, but they are not crevice dwellers either, yes of course they use them just like zonatas, but in my opinion, their heads are flatter because they are or were, without question a tree dweller. I will add, WERE may be key. Ethlogy recognizes adaptions from the past carried into the present, and not used. In otherwords, animals are always changing and playing catchup.

ALso, other key bits of understanding. Above ground crevice dwelling and below ground crevice dwelling are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

I could tell you how to find their eggs, its simple(but work) and so very common sense. Again, I won't, because it can only harm the animals for the benefit of people. And for what reason, to prove what? The absolutely truth is and what applies here is, snakes nest in secure places, or we would find their eggs all the time. Our nest boxes, are not secure, are not dark, and are not the materials they would lay in naturally. We force them to obey us, because its handy for US. Even if it works, its nothing to do with the animals. Consider, Sphagnum moss grows on trees and is not where they lay eggs, plastic containers are not in nature. And they do not lay where there is LITE. Also snakes do not read, study or have anyway to know what these human things are. Yet, in nature, they are very very very very very very prejudiced to where they lay eggs, which means they have a knowledge of what to do and where to do it, and what materials/conditions need to be present. Our nesting meets some of the conditions, barely, but then so does a water bowl. Cheers

Also, rock outcrops are what you/most base ideas on, yet, they only represent a tiny tiny tiny percentage of "type of habitat used" with zonatas. Which means, zonatas occur and thrive in areas without these rock outcrops. In fact, the vast majority of their existing range and habitat, does not have these rock outcrops.

We humans use these rock outcrops to EXPLOIT the snakes for our benefit. Its a condition we know how to exploit. We do not know how to exploit chapparal covered hillsides. Or habitat with no rocks to flip, cracks to look in, or Ac to flip. Yet those areas have these snakes, we just ignore them because we do not know how to collect them in a quality way.

Another example of this prejudiced thinking is with our study animals, montane rattlesnakes. Its known they utilize talus slides. In fact, many well known herpetologists think Talus slides are where these snake LIVE and only where they live. The problem is, our study site is void of talus slides. The reality is, talus slides represent less then .0001 percent of their existing habitat. Again, its something they do use(when available and we know how to exploit it.

Take AC(artificial cover) Its totally unnatural, yet many base their understanding of snakes, BASED ENTIRELY on the use of AC. I ask those folks, what do you think those animals did before you put AC(board/tin lines) there? Cheers

>>...Consider, Sphagnum moss grows on trees and is not where they lay eggs,

Wikipedia refers to: "...sphagnum moss, the live moss growing on top of a peat bog on one hand, and sphagnum peat moss (North American usage) or sphagnum peat (British usage) on the other, the latter being the decaying matter underneath."

What's the green moss in this photo? In surrounding areas it had formed sheets blanketing the ground and looked, at least, like the stringy sphagnum (not sphagnum peat) I used for egglaying and incubation.

I worry sometimes that we can get ahead of ourselves in our theorizing. Or maybe sphagnum grows differently in pyro territory (can't remember from my trips there) than in north carolina where this pic was taken.

Having said that, I agree that even the stringy sphagnum I used would not be a logical laying spot in the wild, as it's on the surface of the ground, and probably too damp and certainly offers little protection for snake eggs. (On the other hand, again, we found salamander eggs under moss at Natural Bridge State Park in Kentucky a couple weeks ago, so for smaller eggs it might be a useful nesting site.

td

Sorry, I confused it with Spanish moss. Which is what is all over Thayeri, greeri, country. We are lucky here, we don't have either.

The point remains, they don't naturally nest in it, either one.

Yes sallies do, but you should know the difference, one is an amniote eg)(THE ADVANCEMENT ATTRIBUTED TO REPTILES) the other is not. Sallie eggs do not have the protective out cover to prevent dehydration. Cheers

>>Sorry, I confused it with Spanish moss. Which is what is all over Thayeri, greeri, country. We are lucky here, we don't have either.
>>
>> The point remains, they don't naturally nest in it, either one.

I thought you were making the point the moss was a poor choice for lay boxes because it's not where snakes lay in the wild. I wouldn't try to incubate eggs in Spanish moss, but I rarely had a female reject a lay box full of damp sphagnum and eggs certainly incubated in it successfully. Humans may breed standing up in the wild (what do I know!? actually no doubt varies from culture to culture) , but they've also proven most willing to breed in soft beds in air conditioned rooms, and from what I hear the reproductive rate can be quite high in those circumstances too. . cheers

LMAO, I see that stating the obvious is a two way street!

Semantics aside this was a pretty good thread. I'd never thought of how many snakes no longer seem to coil around their eggs and make masses. Used to be they just about all did regardless of the nest and as I pointed out some even did it outside a nest. Even though I use deep nest boxes now with coco mulch and sand, not all of my critters coil around the eggs. In fact a good many just cast them off as described.

To me this is another indication of how much is lost in captivity. I appreciate what Frank is trying to communicate with this choices concept even if I most of the time feel like its just putting a band aid on a gun shot wound.

For my part, I’m trying an approach that is balanced between the two concepts. Its still rack plasti-culture but one can increase the thermal gradient and provide multiple and varied hides. I even think that allowing the snakes to interact is ok as long as you keep an eye out for ones that might be stressing but then you should be doing that anyway.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Your missing the entire point, but I like your human copulation method comparison. Hmmmmmmmmm You don't breed standing up, dude, your missing out on a WHOLE lot.

Which IS the point, try it, you may like it, or one of many other very interesting positions. The bed thing, can be done, but is very limiting. Which is the same for your nesting options.

It may work, but there is so so so much more, even if its like primitive sex. hahahahahahahahahaha

A better analogy would be, if snakes nested in a bed, and they did so in a very genetic prejudiced way, as in they are designed to nest in a bed, their recruiting success is BASED on that. Your offering them a JAR to nest in. Like Croc dundee said, you could live on that, but it tastes like sh-t. Cheers

>>
>> I could tell you how to find their eggs, its simple(but work) and so very common sense. Again, I won't, because it can only harm the animals for the benefit of people.

Well then why not tell us how you handle nesting? Do you use nesting boxes or does your substrate handle nesting?
What do you use for your substrate or nesting? I'd guess a soil-ish type thing that allows for burrowing?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

FR has decribed it before. Basically the best setup you can handle or are allowed.

I you know the basics the sky is the limit.
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www.Bluerosy.com

First off, what I DO does not have a darn thing to do with this, I have done great, but do I think my great even compares to nature, heck no. And I have shown picks here.

Do I think I can do more, oh heck yes, as Bluerosy said, the skys the limit. What I do or have done is not the limit, its more like the begining.

I am not here to tell you what to do, or how to do it. Or how good your doing or how good I am doing. I offer you the chance to help your animals. If they don't need it, then thats the end of that story. If they do, then there is a direction you can approach. Do you have to go all the way, no, do what is good for your animals and you.

Most likely, the most important element is LIGHT, all these snakes do not lay in areas that is lit up. They all lay in dark areas. So things like transparent tupperware are stressful ALL THE TIME. The degree of stress depends on many other factors.

The truth is, there is a thousand ways to skin this cat. Not one way, or the way I do or did it.

I allow you a mind of your own, and I give you credit. Learn whats needed and fix it YOUR WAY. Cheers

I haven't been breeding long enough to tell you if what I'm using for snakes works for me yet. Next year is going to be my first actual attempt at breeding kings.
When I bred geckos, I let them lay in situ (using a sandy soil substrate). They usually laid under either wood or those little clay flower pot bases...worked ok for them and I'm playing with what I'll use for my snakes. Haven't made up my mind yet.

FWIW, I'm leaning towards these neat little box things my wife found at some craft store. I don't know what they were *meant* to be, but they're wood that's been treated and seems water resistant. They come in different sizes--the biggest is maybe 10" long by 3-4" wide. I guess they're meant to be small containers for crafty stuff, they have a drawer with a little half hole cut in it. They're dark, sturdy, and they're not that pricey, like a buck or three a pop. I may just go with an alternative substrate--try to replicate that nice mix I used for geckos and my sav--and construct hide places in that that'd work for laying--large broken up clay pots, slabs of cork...don't know yet.

Right now I'm keeping on cypress mostly...fairly happy but debating changing it to something else. But I hate switching something that *seems* to be working. I'm fundamentally conservative with things like that. If something seems to be working I'm loath to change it...but then what if something else works better ya know?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

I like your post, if snake breeders would put in the effort lizard breeders do, all would be right in the world. Hmmmmmmmm lizard breeders HAVE to or it fails. Snakes are toooo dang easy, they fail, only slowly.

Lets use your experience, geckos are shallow nesters, Savs are not so shallow. That is, their nests are much farther in. For a Sav to make a burrow, it must be longer then the lizard or is not a burrow. They do not nest like a tort. A gecko only has to go in a few inches before its hole is a burrow.

Snakes are in most places(except in very cool climates) deep nesters, that is, usually where the sun don't shine. In very hot climates, really deep, etc. But in all cases, no sunshine.

The thing about a nest box is, most use tubberware or equal. Most have snap on lids or equal. Most are set in a cage which is to small to start with. Do you keep geckos in a cage thats shorter then the length of the animal? You know, a six inch lizard in a six inch cage. But people surely put a three foot snake in a three foot or smaller cage, WHY? Cause they don't have legs? they can still crawl and crawl well and far, yet they still put them in a tiny cage. Then I will ask, who ever said the nest is suppose to fit inside the cage. Why can't the nesting area be as large or larger then the cage?

Last year, I tested a new idea with sweater boxes in mind. Instead of putting a box in a box, I filled the entire sweater box with damp moss. Then I placed a butter dish in the middle with a hole the size of the snake in it. In every case, the snake laid in the butter(or equal) container. It was humid, dark, secure and it worked. And I still used a sweater box.

So this box in a box thing, where did it come from? And why?

tupperware is for food I have the remains of an 8 oz sirloin in one right now.

As far as the behavior you described with using a butter container in a sweaterbox; I don't know for sure how to interpret that. I'd be lying if I said otherwise. I can guess though and I do feel free to do so:
Tight. If snakes do like feeling secure and safe while laying (which makes some sense), they might be more inclined to find a tight secure space with one opening where nothing else can sneak up? I'm not sure if you placed the moss in the butter dish, but if not...maybe it managed to be humid without having surface moisture? That's been a battle for me over the years to get that balance and I'm 99% sure snakes don't like laying in what amounts to a fungus haven.

I'd love to be able to induce the snake to lay, and have eggs hatch, in situ like I used to do with geckos. I'm not sure if/how I can pull it off though. Or what'll happen to any babies that hatch (after all, the same cage that'll contain a 4-5' king may have holes a hatchling can escape through). But damn it'd be a really nice validation of husbandry.

>> Last year, I tested a new idea with sweater boxes in mind. Instead of putting a box in a box, I filled the entire sweater box with damp moss. Then I placed a butter dish in the middle with a hole the size of the snake in it. In every case, the snake laid in the butter(or equal) container. It was humid, dark, secure and it worked. And I still used a sweater box.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

If so, you realize that I supplied the standard for the varanid world on NESTING(successful nesting). The deep substrate/cattle trough, was my offering to the varanid world, as was retes stacks. As was the ability to allow varanids a choice as to where to nest. It worked extremely well with varanids.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm I invented that method with snakes, both deep nesting and temp choices(retes boards).

The in situ part has been carried out by Chad over at Pro exotics. They produced many other reptiles(snakes) using the MONITOR METHOD(that was derived from snakes by me). They even had them hatch out in the cages, give them a shout, I am sure they would be glad to share with you.

What they did was, put snakes in monitor cages. Which allowed snakes choices. It worked so well, they couldn't tell the snakes even laid at times. Cheers

I love monitors but haven't worked with them much; I've had my sav, and a pair of ackies (bought at Pro Exotics years ago, but sold off fairly quickly). I just don't have the resources to work with the species I really like on a serious level. I'd love to have a breeding group of waters, niles or blackthroats, but there's no way for me to do that. I don't have the money or space. My 3-4' sav took nearly as much time and energy and space as one of my big pythons. I don't want to picture what a 50-60 lb lizard would need...let alone 3-5 of them for breeding.
I remember eventually ripping off your husbandry ideas for my sav and they made a noticeable difference for the better; thank you. This would have been back...oh, 2000 maybe?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

np

Cant say I've ever had a female just toss her egs around the cage, as I've always had a nice clump of eggs from anything I've ever bred including eastern indigos. Hmmm, interesting topic me thinks.......
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I find it hard to believe these snakes are capable of surviving in the wild without us to show them what to eat and when, when to breed, where to lay eggs, what temps, proper humidity, and everything else it takes a human brain to completely figure out for them. They must not really exist at all. Can’t be.

There is a difference between a wild snake and the snake that has been captive bred, selectively bred, even line bred, for many generations
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

They may have some disadvantage, but I don't think it's that much of a difference. I have lost Zonata at my house and found them the next spring fat and ready to breed. lol

obviously I live in Ideal Zonata country: blue tailed skinks, fenced lizards, field mice and plenty of acreage to roam. Still they are captive snakes escaping and wintering outside of my cages.