Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dear all:

I know that it is generally accepted that one should not feed wild rodents to one's snakes. However, there is a child in my neighborhood who is going to feed wild animals no matter what. The only thing I can try to do is convince him to at least freeze the wild rodent first. I would like to give him a definitive answer as to how long it has to be frozen in order to kill most of hte parasites..

I have one such situation. There is an eight year old child with a burmese python (YES. That is correct. His parents let him buy a burmese python). This child has caught wild squirrels. He is asking me how long the squirrels have to be frozen in order that most of the parasites are killed.

He plans to feed the squirrels to the burmese python. He understands my position on wild squirrels. However, since I am not his parent, I cannot convince him to do otherwise. So, the only hting I can do is to try to make things as safe for the snake as possible. How long do you think the squirrels have to be frozen before it will be "safe" for the snake to consume?

I know that it is not a good idea for an eight year old to have a burmese python. But since he is not my child, I can't do anything about that. All I can do is try to help and make sure that the burmese is as well taken care of as possible. I will be there to help rescue the animal when the time comes and the child either loses interest or comes to his senses. IN the mean time, I would like to know how long the squirrels shouidl be frozen before being fed to snake.
-----
Longtang. I like snakes and rats.

Call the F&G wardens. Without hunting permits, squirrels are protected by the federal and state government. The kid should not have a pet burm, end of story, especially if he is giving it squirrels. Andy
-----
Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Good call, Andy! If the parents are unwilling to pay for feeder rodents, imagine what else they are unwilling to pay for!
-----
~redmom~
My Email
Herps:
1.0 Normal corn snake "Ed"

Others:
1.0 Blue Betta fish "'Beta' test"
0.1 White/Lemon/beige splotched and spotted hound mix "Angel"

Human pets:
2.0 Children "Matthew" 7 yrs, "Duncan" > 1 yr
1.0 Hubby "Roger"

"Life will find a way." Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) Jurrasic Park

I have heard/read two weeks. I don't recall where. Question answered, I also should say that I strongly agree with the below posts. What were those parents thinking???
Someone needs to step in. And I think you may be it. If you are unwilling, for whatever reason, I suggest that you post enough information (unwittingly, of course) that someone else can make the needed calls. Just my opinion, of course.
Duffy

I can see this turning into another huge festival for the media... As a matter of fact, someone should call the Department of Child Welfare on these parents for allowing their son to own a potentiall dangerous reptile.. however, if that happens, its just going to be another knock for the reptile world. But, it would the right things for someone to do.... DCW should be in on this one. An 8 year old has no business owning a snake that could hit 20 feet or more and weigh well over 200 or 300 pounds.
-----
Lucien

1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
3.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 2 het Blizzard)
0.1 Savannah Monitor
13 rats
12 Gerbils
2 Dogs
3 cats
1 Albino Corey (fish)

What about his parents? Can you talk to them? Do they supervise this child at all when he's around the snake, or do they expect an 8 year old kid to be able to handle a burm? (maybe they don't understand how large they get?) If they know and don't have involvement, you might want to consider reporting them. It is quite reckless and dangerous to leave a young child around a giant snake (I don't know how large the one is, but if he's already feeding it squirrels, it's going to be dangerously large soon, if it isn't already)
Lots of injuries by constrictors are preventable.
-----
-audri
Webpage/Pics

All to often I see young, elementary age children walking dogs unsupervised...even this is a huge potential disaster! Even if the dog is just a small dog, what happens if (when) another dog, unleashed or a stray tries to attack the dog the child is walking??? I have a seven yr old, and I would buy a burm if I thought I could handle it myself. But since I can't (at least not yet) then I won't! It's that simple, if my husband and I can't be responsible, we don't get it!

I frequently watch Animal Cops and Animal Precinct on Animal Planet and roughly one third of creulty cases with dogs is where a parent allowed a child in their home, thirteen and under, to "take care of" a dog and the child negleted the dog. The children were not prosecuted....the parents were! Basically, any child is not responsible enough to take care of any animal, be it a cat, fish, dog or herp!

Now that being said, perhaps you should call whomever handles animal cases in your area (animal control for, unfortunately....I never see results from them!) and let them know that you suspect neglet of a burm python and let them know that they are catching squirrels to feed it and that you never see the parents' involvement. You can call anonymously.

Otherwise, approach the parents and find out what is going on when you're not around. If they freely say that they are using squirrels and leaving up to the kid to care for it, try to, respectfully (I know, I know, but you attract more bees with honey) inform them of the proper care and the laws. If they are unwilling to care for the snake and provide the proper food for it, then see if they are willing to relinquish it.

Also, squirrels may not provide the snake with the proper nution, either. So that is yet another concern here.

Oh boy! The list goes on!
-----
~redmom~
My Email
Herps:
1.0 Normal corn snake "Ed"

Others:
1.0 Blue Betta fish "'Beta' test"
0.1 White/Lemon/beige splotched and spotted hound mix "Angel"

Human pets:
2.0 Children "Matthew" 7 yrs, "Duncan" > 1 yr
1.0 Hubby "Roger"

"Life will find a way." Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) Jurrasic Park

I can't really agree with that one... Allowing a child to have a pet they are solely responsible for teaches them that something else depends on their actions. I've been responsible for all my own animals since I was old enough to take care of them. Food, clean up, etc etc.. A child should be responsible for their pet in many ways, maybe not fully responsible but definately, if they want to own it, responsible enough to take care of it themselves. However, its parents like this, who allow their young children to get potentially dangerous pets who are just making the keeping of reptiles more and more difficult for the responsible owners. I know young kids, (12, 13, 14 etc) who take better care of their animals than their parents do of them... And I know the same age range of kids who have more knowledge of reptiles and amphibs than adults 3 times their age.
-----
Lucien

1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
3.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 2 het Blizzard)
0.1 Savannah Monitor
13 rats
12 Gerbils
2 Dogs
3 cats
1 Albino Corey (fish)

There's nothing wrong with giving a kid responsibility; the problem IMO, is when parents allow an animal to be neglected, mistreated, or die in the name of teaching 'responsibility'.
-----
-audri
Webpage/Pics

That was what I was trying to state in my post....that no child should be WHOLLY responsible for a pet. Plus, they need to be supervised with them. I would never leave my 7 yr old alone with my dog, snake or fish! I have to be held accountable for them, not my son. And if I don't do my part right, then I may pass on the wrong message to my son. I feel, the way I do it now, that I am teaching him, watching him, caring for him and the animals, not to mention this makes for faboo bonding time! Heck, pulling out Little Ed is sometimes the only way to break him away from his computer games! Pets are a family affair...not just a thing to pacify the kids.
-----
~redmom~
My Email
Herps:
1.0 Normal corn snake "Ed"

Others:
1.0 Blue Betta fish "'Beta' test"
0.1 White/Lemon/beige splotched and spotted hound mix "Angel"

Human pets:
2.0 Children "Matthew" 7 yrs, "Duncan" > 1 yr
1.0 Hubby "Roger"

"Life will find a way." Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) Jurrasic Park

I feel that kids should be allowed to have pets, however, I do agree that the parents should act as a supervisor to both the child and the pets, whether it's dogs, cats, rabbits, mice, or snakes.

In fact, a friend of mine was talking about buying an iguana for her 9-10 year old kid. I stressed a lot about it, giving her lots of care sheets, as well as general information about how much it would cost for a proper setup for this $9 petshop iguana.

Ya know, a good iguana cage, uvb lighting, other misc heating, food, calcium and vitamin supplements, and misc supplies may run $300 or more each year. She said "ok that's no problem".

Anyway, even after reading the care sheets and listening to my recommendations, she got a small aquarium and a dome light, with non-uvb bulbs, and the $9 petshop iguana...

Within a week, it was dead. So, they get another iguana. It seems to be eating well and all, and then BOOM it tailwhips the kid. He gets scared of it and never feeds it or touches it or cleans its cage. Note that this iguana was a hatchling. So, a tailwhip from this little thing was nothing to scare anyone.

Finally, they apparently find a lady that knows how to properly take care of it, who isn't scared of it, and was willing to take it off their hands.

This is a case where both the parent and the kid were not responsible. The parent was the one with the money and was in charge of making sure she had the right caging, uvb, feed, etc, while the kid's responsability was to take care of it (feeding, cleaning, making sure it had clean water).

So, even with the correct information at her fingertips, she apparently didn't feel the need to "waste" all that money on this "cheap" pet.

You might want to invite the parents over for coffee or something sometime and discuss these issues. Don't insist anything, just show them the facts.
Unless they are certifiable idiots, no parent in their right mind would allow such a young kid to have this snake if they knew how big it got.

Show them literature on the snake...how big it gets, how powerful it is (heck demonstrate power with one of your smaller snakes), etc.
Show them the local laws on wildlife and the penalties THEY would pay since they are the guardians of the child.

Also as a reply to this note I am typing now, I have included a couple notes from the Darwin Awards.

Please note these are not confirmed stories, but we all know they are damn possible.

Hungry Python Kills Owner
1996 Darwin Award Nominee
Unconfirmed by Darwin
(11 October 1996, New York) A teenager was crushed to death by his pet python after he had failed to keep the snake properly fed, police reported. Grant Williams, 19, was found unconscious in a pool of blood, the life practically squeezed out of him by a 12ft Burmese python named Damien, which was still wrapped over his body. The snake had been given nothing more than a single dead chicken in the past week and may have been crazed by hunger.
Mr Williams was found in the hallway. He may have been trying to escape the flat to summon help. Medical orderlies summoned the strength ­ of body and of mind ­ to lift the 45lb, 5in-thick python off Mr Williams and hurl it into an adjacent room, but the snake lover died in hospital. At the time of the attack, Mr Williams was preparing to feed Damien a live chicken. It is possible that the python, peckish, opted for the larger prey. When on the brink of a kill, the Burmese python (Molorus bivattatus) can move with deadly speed, and there are few creatures able to escape its grasp.
Mr Williams may have suspected that his familiarity with Damien placed him above danger, but a hungry python does not quibble about such niceties. Captain Thomas Kelly, from the 46th precinct, said: "It looks accidental." Mr Williams and his brother kept a number of snakes, many uncaged, in their Bronx flat. The dead man's mother, Carmelita Williams, said that she had tried to persuade her son to abandon his hobby. "I begged him to get rid of the python," she said, weeping. "I even threatened to call the police."
Damien was last night caged at an animal control centre, after being fed. Its fate is uncertain.

Burmese Python
1999 Darwin Award Nominee
Unconfirmed by Darwin
(1999, Nevada) A man was found dead in his Fallon, Nevada residence, an apparent victim of strangulation by of his 15ft Burmese Python. The man was handling his pet when the snake mistook his hand for dinner, clamped its jaws around it, and began constricting around his arm. Snakes are solid muscle, and a python this size is far more powerful than any mortal man. Once the snake begins to constrict, only a lever or a sharp knife can persuade the serpent to abandon its course of action. Knowing this, the owner had nevertheless failed to keep a tool handy.

The snake began swallowing his hand, and constricting around his body in an attempt to quell the spasms of the thrashing prey. The man instructed his hysterical wife, who was too scared to approach the snake, to call 911. But the authorities arrived too late. The snake had already constricted around its owner's chest and squeezed him breathless. It is to be hoped that the snake owner used his free arm to beat his helpless wife senseless before he died.

...and show the parents these Darwin Award posts. I agree fully with all of the above posts that this is a reckless and potentially dangerous situation. Not good for the kid, not good for the parents, and not good for the herp world in general. Hopefully we can nip this one in the bud.
-----
MichaelB

You do bring up good points. I am glad that these points are raised. You guys have reminded me on how much respect one has to pay to big constrictors. This is not to say that I was not aware of the dangers. For, I have read the articles on Melissa Kaplan's site on Burmeses when the child first got the python about 4 to five months ago.

The parents at that time were aware of the dangers and they themselves have read the article. They are aware of the articles and the dangers. However, the child promised to get rid of the python (thus making it a disposable pet) when it got to be too big.

In fact, during the last months, the child himself has contemplated getting rid of the python. This was because the python has repeatedly bitten and repeatedly attempted to bite the child. This python is currently about 4 feet long. It can barely eat an adult rat (with legs of the rat cut off so that it is easier to swallow). Therefore, it does not pose a death danger to the child yet.

What I am trying to say is that the family and the child is aware that the python will become dangerous. However, it is not near danger size yet. The child has received puncture wounds and also had gotten really angry at the python for the bites (and attempted bites). He almost got so angry as to get rid of the python. However, he had a change of heart and decided to keep the python until it gets bigger.

The family does have a plan. It is a simple plan, based on the concept of "disposable pets." They figure that they will hang on to the snake as long as it is still not too dangerous. Once it gets to be maybe 8 to ten feet, I am guessing, they will get rid of the dangerous pet. I think this is when I step in and help the serpent find a good home.

In the mean time, the child will be allowed to keep the python in the 75 gallon glass aquarium and feed it rodents.

Another word on the parents' interpretation of the warning articles: These parents and the child himself all know the potential danger of burmese pythons. However, they didn't take that fact to mean that they should not own one. They molded a strategy to account for the potential dangers: if this animal gets to be dangerous sized, it will be gotten rid of. Such is the state of the American Family Values. This family's values are such that as long as the family itself is not endangered, it doesn't matter who else or what else is hurt in the process. Let nothing (let no morals, conscience, love/fear of god or scorn by the KS community) stand in the way of their fun.

As far as the squirrels are concerned, they are road kills that the child picked up. He didn't kill the squirrels and therefore did not break any laws. In fact, if you really thought about it, he is actually doing nature a service by recycling. Otherwise, this squirrel would have just ended up in a land-fill. I do have to give him kudos for being environmentally conscious on this particular matter. Thank you for answering the question about two weeks in the freezer (someone earlier said that it takes two weeks. Thank you)

As far as calling the authorities: the family has broken no law. It is legal to own a burmese. They have not done anything unlawfully so far. If I were to call DCW, it would first of all not accomplish anything. Secondly, it would cut me off from being able to help in the future. I am looking at the big picture. In the long run, it is better that i continue to be the family's friend so that I can guide them into the right choices when they decide to rid of the python. I think I would do more good by being an ally than being their enemy.

sincerely.

p.s. pleaes have a pleasant snake day!
-----
Longtang. I like snakes and rats.

That disposable pet thing has me worried. Yes, we all know its a problem and we all do what we can to help (my local pet store has a ferret rescue and I often give donations to help her), and most of all we know this additude won't go away anytime soon.

Kudos for being there to help when they need a new home, and I think we all know they will, but I would caution that you don't become the "trash can" that these folks look to when they need to get rid of something big (much like local zoos have become).
Personally if it was me, I would refuse to help... or at least stall for a good amount of time (to make them sweat a little). They need to realize that its not exactly easy to get rid of some of the reptiles out there, nor is it a proper "plan" for a pet (The "get rid of it when its too big or problematic" approach).

I hate to say it, but many humans need to be conditioned not to do things much like out reptiles.
Maybe if they have to keep it for a few more months after it gets too big, they'll think twice about making such a quick (and irresponsible) purshase next time.

Shrug.
You're obviously a good meaning guy and wise in the ways of herps
So I'll leave the descisions to you. Just take my ramblings with a grain or two of salt.

I agree with Nicodemus....it's your decision, but this is how we have so many problems as it is. A family gets huge, dangerous pet and they think, "Oh we can get rid of it when we feel it crosses the line" but then the moment they find it's harder to relocate than they thought, suddenly it's released in the wild!

Not to mention I have serious issues with this whole thought of passing it off in couple of years! If someone is not willing to comit to an animal for it's lifetime (15-25 yrs usually for big snakes) then, by God, THEY SHOULDN'T GET IT!!!! From the sounds of it, they shouldn't have ANY animal as a pet!

It's a d*@n good thing their parents didn't decide to throw them out when they became too much trouble!

Anyhow, I've said my peace. Thanks for being willing enough to step in and help the snake when those irresponsible pains in the butt decide to "toss" it away.

Good luck to ya!
-----
~redmom~
My Email
Herps:
1.0 Normal corn snake "Ed"

Others:
1.0 Blue Betta fish "'Beta' test"
0.1 White/Lemon/beige splotched and spotted hound mix "Angel"

Human pets:
2.0 Children "Matthew" 7 yrs, "Duncan" > 1 yr
1.0 Hubby "Roger"

"Life will find a way." Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) Jurrasic Park

The problem with this is.. Any snake over 6 feet is dangerous, especially to a child of 8 who's smaller than that. And that burmese will hit 6 ft in less than 2 months if fed enough. Burmese, Retics and African Rocks have one of the fastest growth rates of any snake... They can become sexually mature at 10 ft and only 18 months old. A 6ft snake could indeed kill a full grown adult human given the opportunity. I've handled large snakes in the past. I owned an African Rock.. nasty temper and definately nothing any child should have. Burmese are almost the same... They can have really nasty tempers and this one sounds like it does. If the child has been bit several times then the snake does pose a danger already in the hands of an inexperienced owner. I was bit only once by my African Rock Python... anyone who gets bit repeatedly by a snake shouldn't have it... The very least you should do is call the humane society. If he's feeding it roadkill squirrels that is actually endangering the health of the snake... due to parasites and diseases squirrels carry that the snake would have no natural protection against not being from the the North American Continent.
-----
Lucien

1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
3.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 2 het Blizzard)
0.1 Savannah Monitor
13 rats
12 Gerbils
2 Dogs
3 cats
1 Albino Corey (fish)