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its not always fun.....

gray May 19, 2010 09:38 AM

Well I think you have to share the bad with the good. I've often thought about the slanted view that new hobbyists get by seeing all the beautiful litters posted in forums. Breeding animals is risky business for the animals and the breeders. Playing a role in the creation of new life can be exhilarating but the disappointment is deep when things go wrong. It went wrong for me on Monday night. I was highly anticipating a litter from Bonita (outstanding normal) x Ramero (Red Group Jungle). All indications were that she was going to produce a healthy litter of fantastically clean, contrasty, colorful Jungles. I came home from a long day to find 29 unfertilized eggs and 1 stillborn. Fortunately, Mom is fine. Last season, Ramero was loaned to a former student of mine. Her female slugged out. Is he infertile? The one stillborn was definitely a Jungle so he can produce viable sperm. I think that its just incredibly bad luck that he has been involved in over 50 slugs over the last two seasons.

Mom:

Dad:

The result:

More Litter photos

Thanks for looking,
gray

Replies (9)

aboaslife May 19, 2010 10:05 AM

Same thing happenend to me last year... It is very dissapointing to wait so long and then nothing. I had one baby out of 17 slugs but baby didnt make it Mom is good she took last yr off and is looking good for this upcoming breeding season. I agree if you that alot of new breeders dont realize the bad and only think of the good. Sorry for your bummed litter of slugs there is always next year as long is mom is doing good you can always try again later.

whosnext May 19, 2010 11:42 AM

Hey Gray, sorry to here about this. I know how partial you are to the genes in this particular breeding through our talks. Trust me I and most of the breeders here feel for you. However, the message you laid out here is so true. You are one of the best boa breeders here and it's imperative that someone of your experience relay that things don't always turn out good. Sometimes it is the breeders error and other times nature takes over fertilization doesn't take place. Whatever the cause it happens and it feels like taking one to the gut. Thanks for sharing. You have produced some beautiful animals thus far and I'm sure there is something else due at AllBoas this season. Take care and we'll talk soon.

AJ

rainbowsrus May 19, 2010 12:10 PM

Sorry to hear that, brings to mind the old saying "Don't count your chickens before they hatch".

A couple months back one of my girls (Harlequin Orange Tail Hypo bred by Pastel Motley) was doing good, clearly gravid, all good signs including whoosh whoosh in the fetal heart monitor. Then she dropped early. Was mostly slugs but there were some nice little preemies in the pile, but was too early and none survived.

Sucks but what can you do but clean up the mess and move on?
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

TreyStowell May 19, 2010 12:52 PM

Well put Grey, and great idea to post this info/short write up. I will share the my 2010 story that is much as yours and try not to make it too long winded ... but you might grab a soda or brew and have a lil read if your so inclined.

After producing my first litter of Cherry salmons in 2008, in 2009 I mis-timed a pairing for a second Cherry litter and nothing came of it even though there was a big ovulation post pairing (was with a different female).

This year I decided to pair up my Cherry salmon male with the nice clean normal columbian that (together) gave me the small but nice litter in 2008 (15 babies and two slugs).

Back to this first litter planned for 2010 ... now after 100 days POS of eager and anxious daily anticipation, and watching mom display perfect form for a healthy litter my spirits were in high gear. The female was looking nice and thick, using heat conservation position on and off the heat like clock work. I was just sure that I was gonna get a nice big healthy litter from the two from all indications ... and she was so much bigger than she was when carrying the 2008 litter of 15 and two slugs. I was high on the thoughts of so many nice babies dropping one afte the other, in simple succession.

Then on day 101 POS I saw her lining herself along the back of the cage with tail down the end wall of the cool side of the cage and saw her contrations start, first moving the percious cargo up to her mid section wave after wave from tail to mid body. Then finally her tail moved up and to the side and I noticed her tail was starting to ecpand as whatever whas inside now lined up for delevery.

While by my count it did seem about a week early, maybe i mis-counted my dates.

In no time a orangish red glow became visble from her cloaca. My heart skipped a beat and for some reason I had a negative vibe of energy pass through my entire body head to toe. I shook it off and reasured myself 'stating with a slug ... hmmm ... okay, there has to be so many lil wigglers in there I can live with that". Then came another and heart skipped another beat. "She must have pushed a few slugs to the front of the line when she did her pre-delivery alignment sequence" I told myself. Then another, then two more that were stuck together as they battled to see which first would hit the open air. At this point there was not heart skipping a beat as it felt like it stopped and had come to rest inside my chest.

I then sat there for 20 minutes as one after the next after the next, and next (yada yada) hit the air within the cage. I am now hitting rock bottom on this 'nightmare' that just aint supposed to happen in my reality ... well shoot not to me at least! The delevery from the book of the dead ended with a count of 36 slugs and one still born/premie.

I was sick to my stomach as this was gonna be my bang to start the 2010 season off, especially since I was not able to produce a cherry salmon litter in 2009. Needless to say I was bummed for days and really emotionally upset to have witnessed this happen to me for the first time. Everything was done right. Male courted female for nearly 6 weeks straight. Saw the ovulations happen. The male, whith this female, were a proven pair. I as the husbandrey sherrif dotted my 'i's, I crossed my 't's ... I remember I did!

Moral is it happens. When it does it takes no prisoner's nor asks permission or leave with an apology of any kind. When a litter that everything looks perfect slugs out ... well ... there just is not anything you can do but take your medicine, accept what just happened as part of the risk we take to breed the animals in our care in hopes for the best. And with that hope, we must also (at times) take the worst.

But when that dance of the boa Gods does hit every note perfectly from the into to the fade out ... man does it make it seem as all is well within the world that day!

The End (God I hope)
-----
Trey Stowell
BoaCraft Reptiles
Wichita, KS
www.boacraftreptiles.com
trey@boacraft.com

TreyStowell May 19, 2010 12:56 PM

;(
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Trey Stowell
BoaCraft Reptiles
Wichita, KS
www.boacraftreptiles.com
trey@boacraft.com

Shane Kinney May 19, 2010 02:07 PM

It definitely comes with the territory of breeding boas. At least both parents are still healthy and well. Maybe the male is too "clean" to produce good babies? lol.

boldboas May 19, 2010 07:31 PM

Gray, sorry to hear that..the good news is mom is ok..I thought when I started reading your post that you where going to say mom was gone, so it was a relief to find out she is ok..again, sorry about the bad part of it though..
-----
Kevin Stewart

boldboas.com
kstewart@boldboas.com

AbsoluteApril May 20, 2010 10:55 AM

Kudos to you Gray for sharing, I feel it is important to show the good and the bad so people understand it's not always guaranteed, even for someone like you that produces great litters every year.

Sorry to hear about the slugout.
Both mom and dad are great looking, hopefully it'll all work out next time with that pairing if you try again.

-April
-----
'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

asnakesview May 31, 2010 05:40 AM

Don't feel bad Gray. We slugged out on both of our sharp litters this season. It is just what comes with the territory. Like you said at least mom is fine, that is the important part. Thanks for sharing this with people as there are a lot who need to see that not all pairings come out perfect.

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