Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Forgive my ignorance. I'm a little out of the loop these days. Is it still illegal to road cruise in Texas? What about walking cuts?
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Derek Moynihan
San Antonio, Tx

Nevermind. I found it on the TPW website.

"No person may hunt (capture, trap, take, or kill) any wild animal or wild bird on a public road or the right-of-way of a public road."

I wonder what class offense it is if you are caught.
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Derek Moynihan
San Antonio, Tx

>>Nevermind. I found it on the TPW website.
>>
>>"No person may hunt (capture, trap, take, or kill) any wild animal or wild bird on a public road or the right-of-way of a public road."

It's not illegal to road cruise, it's illegal to road hunt. That's an important distinction, and I am curious to see how much hassle I receive merely taking photographs of herps in TX this summer.

I (and I assume, you) would like to be able to collect certain species from the road/right-of-way (including cuts), or salvage DORs for university collections, or simply move turtles off the road and out of harm's way. A good way to help is to join Herp Conservation Unlimited--we're gearing up for action leading up to and during the next state legislative session.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

The ticket is around 400 if you are a native texan 2000 if out of stater and you can go to jail instead or both.It is up to the warden.If you are from out of state and have no permits at all you will be going to jail for a little while.Just come by my house and I will take you to some excellent private land nominal fee of course..LOL.Be legal they are very serious about it now a days.
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Archie Bottoms

Thanks for the info Archie. I would just go anyway but I'm a cop and if I get charged with anything over a class C it could mean my job. That and I don't know how a ticket from a game warden would affect my Controlled Exotic Snake Permit. I just called the game warden in the area that I was planning on going and he told me that his superiors have instructed them to enforce the regulation. I forgot to ask him what class the charge was and didn't really want to call him back so I just decided not to go. I don't want to push the envelope or cause any trouble out there right now, I just don't think it would help anyone. My reason for going would not be to just photograph, I was going to collect a few leps if I found them, which I most likely would in this weather. It's a little difficult to say you're not hunting while your walking along a cut with a giant pair of tweezers and an empty bag. I guess I'll do the same thing I have been doing for the past few years....go fishing, lol. I've been going to Arizona and New Mexico for snake hunting, but it's kind of a far drive for a little overnight trip.
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Derek Moynihan
San Antonio, Tx

They are firm on the "must come from private property with owner's permission". I guess they consider it poaching state assets if from roadways and other public lands. Not real sure what the reasoning is. Maybe they're thinking the game leasers can make a market out of snake collectors to add a bit more income during slow hunt months. Not sure if this is without precedented or not?
Hopefully the law will be amended in our favor next time up.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I don't think it's unusual for certain activity to be prohibited on *public land* that might be allowed on private property.

In all likelihood, the rationale is that public property is public property,i.e. owned by every citizen. If one person takes public property for his/her own benefit, it is a form of theft from the citizenry at large.

I would hope that the OP, as a police officer, understands as much, and will set a good example by obeying the law as well as enforcing it.

>>I don't think it's unusual for certain activity to be prohibited on *public land* that might be allowed on private property.

You are correct; for example, you can hunt from the road (in the classical sense, i.e. shoot a gun from a vehicle on the road) on private property but not on public roads.

In all likelihood, the rationale is that public property is public property,i.e. owned by every citizen. If one person takes public property for his/her own benefit, it is a form of theft from the citizenry at large.

That may be part of the rationale by the proponents of the ban, but it is a faulty one. If this were the case, you wouldn't be able to fish (and keep fish) in state-owned lakes. Shoot, you can legally take fish from state PARKS!

Lawful fishing isn't theft, just as lawful herping isn't theft, because there is a licensing system in place. Those who partake in the sport are directly contributing to the management of wildlife through these fees (though that's highly debatable in the case of herps and other nongame species, which don't receive near the amount of research and management funding as deer, turkey, quail, etc).

Texas is a state very big on private property. In fact, I've read sources which state somewhere around 90% of the state is private property and therefore off-limits to the general public. Unlike other states which encourage landowners to participate in programs to allow walk-in hunting (i.e. access for people other than the "landed gentry" or those rich enough to afford the privilege of $100-a-day hunting leases), Texas landowners make quite a bit of money by making people pay to hunt--whether they are successful or not (I'll be paying $50/day for access to a large ranch this summer, specifically to herp).

The ban on herping the roads and rights-of-way literally closed thousands of acres of land across the state to what was up to that point a lawful and fun activity. But people running over snakes, lizards, and turtles (which happened right in front of me as I was attempting to photograph one)is pretty much OK, because it's harder to enforce.

The ban was sold as the creation of "wildlife sanctuaries" (meaning the rights-of-way); but some hunting is still allowed (falconry) and I've seen an awful lot of roadkill on these "sanctuaries."

I would hope that the OP, as a police officer, understands as much, and will set a good example by obeying the law as well as enforcing it.

I agree on this point as well, and hope that he'll help us follow the legal process to get the law changed next year!

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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

You make a good point about fishing, however, as many public fishing areas are managed and possibly re-stocked on a regular basis, it is just a bit different from herping in that way.

You make a good point about fishing, however, as many public fishing areas are managed and possibly re-stocked on a regular basis, it is just a bit different from herping in that way.

Herping is managed much like fishing--via bag limits and restriction on take of certain species.

Restocking--not in many major impoundments; they are self-sustaining. I don't know about TX but in some states, fish species are restocked as a put-and-take style of sport fishing because the types of fish stocked don't survive, given the conditions available, in sufficient numbers to reproduce (e.g. water too warm).
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

>>Restocking--not in many major impoundments; they are self-sustaining. I don't know about TX but in some states, fish species are restocked as a put-and-take style of sport fishing because the types of fish stocked don't survive, given the conditions available, in sufficient numbers to reproduce (e.g. water too warm).
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>>Chris McMartin
>>www.mcmartinville.com
>>I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris-in Texas, rainbow trout are managed as a put-and-take fishery in the Guadelupe River below Canyon Dam, as well as several other spots, due to high Summer water temps which kill off most trout at that time.

In their regs, many other states specifically recognize road and right-of-way collecting as a legitimate form of "take" for reptiles. texas will soon rejoin them.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Who is "the OP"
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Derek Moynihan
San Antonio, Tx

Who is "the OP"

OP = Original Poster = YOU. Get on the trolley, Johnny!
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

"OP = Original Poster = YOU. Get on the trolley, Johnny!"

Oh, lol. Never heard that one. Goes to show you how far out of the loop I am.
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Derek Moynihan
San Antonio, Tx

..this law in federal court? I'm not a legal expert but I am pretty sure that having two different sets of fines for different classes of citizens is a violation of the equal protection of the U.S. constitution. If not every southern state would surely have 2 different sets of speeding fines one for residents and one for non-residents.
I am not 100% sure but I think this is how the $500 "import fee" on non'resident vehicles got overturned here in Fl.
I am certainly not a lawyer but if 2 different sets of fines is the case with this law. A lawsuit may be worth looking into.

Well since this was accomplished on "Secessionist" Rick Perry's watch by his associates, cronies, and patrons, I'm pretty sure it's crafting was as crooked as any snake found dead on the road. Probably could be legally challenged somehow.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You're certainly correct there, John. After it happened, I felt dirty just having visited the statehouse briefly....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Is it just the "hunting" that's illegal, or picking up and keeping them?

I don't think intent is against the law. However, the case might be made you were engaged in hunting, without any snakes. "What are you doing out here 300 miles from home, out in the middle of nowhere at 2:00am?" Gotta have a good reason, I'd think. Might just roust you for drugs or some other contraband, disassemble your vehicle. Hold you. Find some minor traffic infraction to ticket you with just for the hassle. Street justice. Costs you money and time.
Kinda like being caught with a fishing pole and no fishing license I would think. Empty pillowcase might work against you.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Keep in mind that a law enforcement officer only needs probable cause to make contact with you and reasonable suspicion that a crime has taken place to ticket or arrest you. It's then up to a judge and the court system to determine wether you are guilty and convicted of the crime you are being charged with.
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Derek Moynihan
San Antonio, Tx

Keep in mind that a law enforcement officer only needs probable cause to make contact with you and reasonable suspicion that a crime has taken place to ticket or arrest you. It's then up to a judge and the court system to determine wether you are guilty and convicted of the crime you are being charged with.

I'll be out on the roads, in the wee hours, with only a camera in hand, because photography is legal and I don't touch the animals. HOWEVER, I WILL have hooks and tongs in the car, and maybe some geckos if I legally catch them on the ranch where I'll have permission. This might make for some interesting roadside conversations.

I'll also have my fishin' pole in the car. Hope somebody doesn't try to nail me for fishin' on a cut!
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Same here, Chris. People are going way overboard on this-it is NOT illegal to photograph herps or any other wildlife at night on roads, period.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles