Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Guys,I DO need help finding out WHY my beardies are dying in such a pain i cant look at them without crying.

They looked happy and healthy till one week ago when i found both of my beardies, a male and a female, with holes on their tighs skin probably made by stray mealworms. The holes were not that deep, I treated the holes and the their skin started to heal. But the male was displaying a very black beard the day i found him and he became sicker and sicker until he died.

The day i found him he was active and still eating so i didnt panick.Next day the his beard was still more black and he couldnt move.He slept almost the whole day and when he was not sleeping he was having what looked to me like very strong cramps.I could see he was in pain.

He died 2 days later.

The girl started to have such cramps too and she jumped up and down and hit her head against the cage walls during the cramps attacks.

I gave her to drink some medicine against dogs fleas and she became much better. Returned to her eating and basking routine. i thought the problem was gone.But today when i returned home from work i found her having such cramps again.She was such in pain she even tried to bite me when i tried to handle her what is not normal cause she is very tame. She turned her body like the devil was inside her.

I gave her the same medicine against dogs flea again and now she is sleeping on her heating box.But her beard is still dark waht is not a good sign.

I think the same mealworms that tried to enter her body through her tighs,were successfull entering it through her intestines. And their movements through her body is giving her such cramps.

But if thats true why it took to the male almost 4 days of suffering to die? And why is she not dead yet? Another thing that surprises me is the fact that they didnt bleed. If the mealworms entered their bodies and are eating them through they should be bleeding no?

Please help me!

I can't believe it's the mealworms. I had a dragon that couldn't walk and one day a superworm got under him and ate through his skin, so I know that is possible. But, I think it mostly did it to try to get untrapped from between the tile substrate and the dragon laying on it. Mealworms eat plants and grain, not meat so I'm very skeptical that they would have eaten their way inside the dragon as food and are still in there now. They certainly would have suffocated. Mealworms are not maggots that eat meat, and even maggots only eat dead tissue.

The best I can say is you should bring the animal to a vet. Try to eliminate possible causes like food or environmental contamination. Try to focus on anything different you or someone else may have done. Glass cleaner is poisonous to dragons, something like that. If the animal dies or you still have the other animal then a necropsy would be a good idea. If nothing else it will eliminate some possibilities.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Sorry about all your troubles...don't use anymore dog flea product. If your dragon looks like it's muscles are twitching,spasming,it could be low blood calcium. You definitely need a vet,in the mean time,see if you can get them out in the sun at a reasonable temp.,like 75-80 { make sure you supervise and that the tank or whatever doesn't heat up too much} Take them out for about a half hour a day. Get some liquid calcium in them. Keep the mealworms out of the cage. Another problem could come about if they ate too large a prey item....could cause the crazy neurologic seizures. A trip to the vet is really necessary.

Thanks for answering my message

A too large prey sounds another possible explanation...But ...which prey? I raise them indoors and excepting spiders i dont see which prey they could have eaten.

Their spasms look like a movie about exorcism.They turn their head backwards, and twist their bodies like someone was trying to divide them in the middle.Its very sad.

Are you sure the holes in their thighs are not just the femoral pores?

Are you sure your food is OK? Are you sure there isn't anything they can eat or lick that would be bad for them? What is the medicine you are giving them? And what dosage?

oh no!!I have being raising lizards since 1999 i have 12 lizards in my house now and my iguana is 11 years old.When i bought him he was 1 year old.I know perfectly well what femoral pores look like.

The holes were deep,around 3 mm deep i could put inside them cotton buds i even cleaned the blood inside the holes with cotton buds.

I think they have not been poisoned cause their skin color were normal but the beards which were very black. They didnt vomit or bleed through their mouths or noses.

those symptoms you mentioned are not the only signs of poisoning...contortions and obvious signs of pain are also signs of toxicity. Your best bet at this point is bring your dragons to a vet asap. Don't waste any more time on forums as you won't find the answers here other than what several of us have already recommended. As its obvious you don't enjoy watching your pets suffer, the best thing you can do for them is get them to a professional.
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PHLdyPayne

First off, I doubt mealworms have anything to do with the issue your dragons are having. It is a complete myth that mealworms or superworms can stay alive in an animal's body and chew their way out. Dragons chew their insects more than enough to kill the worms, not to mention their stomach acids would finish the job anyway. That and they would suffocate in the stomach long before they could chew out anyway, on the off chance the acid and dragon chewing them before swallowing failed to kill them.

However, if you mean mealworms are chewing on the outside of your dragon, and creating sores that way..I doubt these bites would be causing cramps etc, unless the bites have gone septic and your dragons are dying from blood poisoning.

I also recommend you don't give medicine to your dragons (or any animal for that matter) without seeing a vet first. For all you know, the dosage you are given will poison your dragon in addition to whatever else is wrong.

Best thing for you to do is take your dragons to a qualified reptile vet so it can be properly diagnosed and treated. There are too many possibilities for anybody to really guess at what is wrong, and none of us here is a qualified vet and even if we were, we would still recommend you bring your animals in. iTs far easier to diagnose a problem when you have the animal in hand and can run tests etc.

It would be a good idea to give us detailed information on each dragon's set up, and what you have been feeding etc, before they started showing signs of injury/illness. ALso include age and how long they have been in your care. Weight and lengths too.
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PHLdyPayne

Thanks for answering my message.

I bought those beardies parents on 2005. I bought the father and the mother.The beardies that i have now were born in my house 2 years ago.They will be 2 years old in June. I kept 5 from the same clutch.2 females and 3 males.

One female i found dead a few months ago.When i left for work in the morning she was perfect when i returned i found her dead inside her mealworms bowl. Her body was completely twisted her mouth was open and THE MEALWORMS from the bowl were going inside her mouth.I saw it.

So mealworms do eat meat and do go inside our babies body to eat them through.But she was already dead when i saw that.I do not know whether they will survive inside a living body or not.

I didnt throw her body in the garbage bin that night cause i was very sad.Next day i saw the mealworms just like maggots had made a huge hole just above her a^^ and where going inside her body through this hole too.

I never found out why she died without being sick inside her mealworms bowl.

Then last week i found two more beardies with holes on their tighs made by mealworms and still alive.After i found them with those holes, the male had those crazy spasms, became very tired and died 3 or 4 days later

The female is still alive, eating , and active when she is not having the spasms.

I raise them indoors in a 1 meter deep x 1 meter large x 2 meters high cage.i give them mealworms, tortoise pellets ( not aquatic turtle pellets cause those are too high in protein)and fresh greens. They have UVB lights and do not display any sign of low blood calcium level.They have perfect jaws and lift their tails high when they walk.

I still have 2 healthy males and they like to climb the cage bars and sleep at at least 2 meters high.

I suppose low level blood calcium may cause other symptoms but spasms no?

Like swollen jaws swollen limbs? They do not have those symptoms.

In Brazil (im Brazilian) its forbidden to raise lizards so i cannot take them to a vet.Because its forbidden and almost nobody raises lizards there are no vets for lizards in my country.

thats why i need your help

Thanks Flavia

Perhaps mealworms in Brazil are different from the mealworms in North America. I suggest don't feed your dragons mealworms anymore. Feed them crickets, roaches, silkworms, or butterworms instead.

Since you don't have any reptile vets..maybe try a regular dog/cat vet. At the very least they can euthanize the dragon that is suffering...

As for MBD, floppy jaws/bones are later stages, often MBD appears first as twitching and shaking of the hind legs.

Also, 2 meters of height is wasted space for a bearded dragon. IT would be better to give them more floor space and ensure they have good basking temperatures. Though bearded dragons will climb, they are not arboreal lizards. It would be much better if you place those cages on their sides, so you have 2 meters of length, with one meter of height and width (though one meter still is rather high..but 2m x 1m of floor space is far better than 1m x 1m. (For our American readers, 1 meter = approx. 3 feet)
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PHLdyPayne

So without a good vet,the best we can all do is guess...offer advice. Like Ph mentioned,the height is too much in the cage...what bulbs are you using? A flourescent bulb for UVB may not reach to where the dragons are...and also,too low of a basking temp. will also cause improper absorption of Calcium. Again,just theories. The reason I mentioned putting them in the sun is that it will quickly reverse he beginnings of low blood calcium if a proper diet is given along with calcium. Also,they may be severely impacted with tortoise pellets and mealworms if they don't have a high enough basking temp. to aid their digestion. Just guessing at anything.... Please DON'T use anymore flea product...that itself is a DEFINITE poison. Did the seizures start AFTER using that? Do you know that if you use a flea product made for dogs on a cat,it can kill it ? Imagine what it can do to a small lizard. I really hope you get to the bottom of this...it's very sad for you I'm sure. Hope for the best.

Thanks a lot for your help.

Im using OSRAN ULTRA LUX 300 wts and i fixed the bulb around 1 meter high from their basking spot.

Yes Brazilian mealworms are VERY aggressive, they even bite me if i keep them in my hands for more than 30 seconds.

Today i gave my girl a warm bath to make her poop (she didnt). I noticed she is afraid of anything that touches the base of her tail and the area near her a**. Afraid of a new bunch of mealworms invading her body again i guess.

She is having those cramps before i give her the dogs flea medicine.Apparently the dogs flea medicine calms her.But ill stop doing that.I know it may be poisonous.

But maybe its just my warm hand that calms her i dont know.

Im completely clueless about my babies serial death. The only explanation i can find is they are being killed by mealworms.Mainly after i saw several avid mealworms entering my dead girls mouth (im referring to the first one who i found dead inside her mealworms bowl). As i told you in my previous message , i left her dead body inside her meaworms bowl during the night and next morning the mealworms had male a huge hole above her a** and were feasting on my girls dead body!!

I think ill stop giving them mealworms.I raised both their parents without mealworms at all.At that time i lived in India and it was impossible to find mealworms or any other insect at the petshops. I raised them with greens and baby food.

But i know beardies crave some insects. So i think ill give my remaining babies insect balls to eat.Thats the only insect i can easily find in Brazil. Not at the petshops but in my garden.

Do you think insect balls are a good alternative to mealworms?

The bulb sounds fine. I don't know what insect balls are.

Don't butterworms come from South America? They can be stored in the refrigerator for long periods of time with few lost. Some of my dragons don't like them though.

coastalsilkworms.com claims they ship around the world. Perhaps you could contact them about a supply of silkworms of eggs. I hatch about 1K silkworms a week for my animals. The silkworm food mix is a powder that can be bought in bulk and stored for over a year. If delivered and kept properly silkworm eggs can remain viable for 4-5 months. So you'd only have to place an order 3 times a year.

It is not hard to breed yoru own silkworms, just let the worms reach full size and pulpate. The moths don't fly and once the female lays eggs and they turn a purplish color, yuo can refrigerate them up to a year. I find its best to either place pairs of moths (females are larger than males, or you can just wait till they are joined) into small paper bags. Once the eggs are laid, you can carefully cut the bag into strips around the eggs (which will stick to the bag) and take out eggs as you need them.

You have to ensure things are not too humid and need to keep the worms clean (ie wear gloves or wash your hands well before handling the worms) Move the worms into clean containers frequently.

Butterworms are mostly exported from Chili but whether they can export them into Brazil, I don't know.

No clue what insect balls are...best thing to do is research your local area for feeder supplies. Any non toxic insect without a really hard exoskeleton can be suitable, as long as they have not been in contact with insecticides, can be suitable. Native crickets should work too. Various roaches can be raised to use as feeders as well.

Search bird sites too, as insect eating birds will need a supply of insects. Local zoos may be willing to provide you with insects as well.

www.recorpinc.com/index.html also ships worldwide to individuals and wholesalers...they also may be able to give you company names of any wholesaler they sell in bulk to in your area...and you can order from them instead (less need t worry about import permits or shipping fees)

As it sounds like your local petstores are very limited in what they sell insect wise..it may be an ideal to research care/raising of insects you can catch around your home or nearby, this way you can raise your own insects. To ensure good nutrition, a variety is best, and dusting with a multivitamin and calcium powder is a good idea too.
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PHLdyPayne

Now a kilometer that's a different story. We know it's 1,000 meters but who knows how far that is? lol. Go Flyers!

In general I expect Americans know what a meter is but some of our posters may not be all that versed in converting metric. A kilometer is about 1.4 miles I believe...
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PHLdyPayne

how long a kilometer is.

1 kilometer = 0.621371192 miles

That's why when I go to Canada I can go 100 when I can only do 65 in America.

ah, I had it backwards..one mile = 1.6 km (rounded up)
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PHLdyPayne

I researched it some and mealworms do eat rotting meat, so that explains them eating the dead dragon.

But, why would a dragon allow anything to chew on them when they are alive to the point of the size holes you describe?

If I'm leaning in any direction it's that the food is contaminated. You said your dragon died in the mealworm bowl. This seems odd to me. Like the food killed them suddenly. Have you considered what you feed the mealworms as a possible cause?

Regardless, I would certainly suggest you not leave the mealworms in their cage all day. I would only feed them when you are there to observe their behavior.

Where are you getting the mealworms from? Can you change suppliers as a trial? Mealworms are not a good choice of feeders for BD's anyway. Are there any other live food choices available?

You are right. I should not leave the mealworms inside their cages even in a bowl all day.I did that cause i leave home very early to go to work and i returned home when my beardies are already sleeping.im not going to do that anymore.

Im feeding the mealworms quail food.Is rich in vitamins , calcium , has 20% of proteins and a corrct calcium/level percentage.

I think the beardies didnt allow the mealworms to eat them alive but could not stop them from doing so once they started to eat their flesh.Beardies cannot reach with their tongues or hands or feet their thighs or the base of their tails.

I suppose they were inside their mealworms bowls eating and slept there. Or they were distracted eating the mealworms and didnt notice when the mealworms firt attacked them.

The girl i found dead died so fast i think the mealworms didnt die when she ate them but went to her brain and ate her brain.

I have to disagree. I have watched dragons scrape against things to get unshed skin off every part of their body. If there was a mealworm eating a live, awake dragon it would find a way to get it off them. That leaves the possibilities that the mealworms attacked them while they were asleep or that the dragon was too sick, lost sensation, or was paralysed and couldn't scrape of the mealworms.

If the dragon ate a mealworm they would be dead as soon as they made it into it's stomach. I have no doubt of that. You should rule out the posssibility that the mealworms were alive in the dragons stomach and ate it from the inside. That's just not possible. It seems that dragons usually die with their mouths partially open, mealworms likely went in and stated eating but did not go to the stomach.

I would think in the direction of the mealworms being poisened possibly, otherwise why has no one else had their animals killed by mealworms eating them? Or maybe it has nothing to do with the mealworms at all.

You can pick any 14 hours for the lights to be on. Just choose ones that work with your schedule so you can be home to feed and interact with them.

If what youre saying its true the only explanation is that the beardies were sleeping when the mealworms starting eating their legs. The holes were big enough to be cleaned by a cotton bud.

It seems the only plausible possibility.

It is possible for dragons to be chewed on while they are asleep, which is why its always recommended to remove any uneaten insect (ie mealworms, superworms, crickets) from the cage before lights out.

Mealworms will crawl into dark spaces, and do like a little moisture, so the open mouth of a dead dragon would certainly lure them in.

A dragon who is active and healthy (and awake) will twitch, run, rub against things etc, to shake off anything annoying them. Not to mention they are very good at pinching fingers between the spines on their tails and their thighs. I touched my dragon on the tail base and before I could pull finger back, she pinned my finger between her thigh and tail which did a very good job of jabbing her spines into my finger...hurt worse than a bearded dragon bite.

As another source of insects I didn't think to mention earlier can be the canned insects.. these are cooked in the can and are available from various companies (zoo-med, etc.) which I am pretty sure ship world wide. Your local pet store may be able to order them in for you..but they can be rather expensive. (They're about $6 a can here in Canada). Available insect types are crickets, silkworms, locusts, mealworms, superworms and a few others I believe (though I wouldn't use the 'seafood' ones for dragons (ie snails) )

You could also check the Businesses tab above for other European/south America suppliers.
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PHLdyPayne

Beardies will also eat earthworms and nightcrawlers. In a pinch when you have NO bugs { like in the winter during bad weather in Pa.when airports aren't moving so no bugs can be shipped} you can cook some egg...some dragons will eat it and others won't. Gravid females usually gobble it up.They do tend to get runny stools afterwards sometimes.

I dont think the local petshops will be authorized to import bugs by the Brazilian authorities. Mainly by our Ministry of Agriculture.

I really dont think i ll be authorized to import bugs from abroad and i dont know where to get silkworms. Dont think i can find them from my garden.Sniff sniff.

But my garden is full of ball bugs. Ball bugs in reality are crustaceans so i suppose their shell must be full of calcium.But im afraid their shell may be hard to digest.

Im enclosing a link that shows photos of insect bugs and some explanation about them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armadillidiidae

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