Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm curious about how many of the out-of-state vendors scheduled for the next Hamburg Show plan to have the required 'Health Certificates' for each animal to be placed on your table for sale.

I'm also wondering how many of the past 'regular' Hamburg vendors who aren't Pa residents are not vending this time around because of this law that has supossedly has always been on the books, yet never enforced until now.

The way I understand it from talking to some vet techs in Daytona, is the 'On Site Vet' soulution to the certificate requirement is NOT adequate any longer and every out-of-state vendor is supposed to have it for EACH ANIMAL they plan to exibit/sell from a HANDS ON examination by a qualified vet from their own state.

Anyone being affected by this care to comment on how you are making out meeting this insane requirement ? Others I've talked to about it have decided not to do the show , are still up in the air on what to do or still haven't gotten a concrete answer from authorities about if this is going to really be enforced or not.

Anyone have an update on the sitiuation ?

I have been trying to get a definitive answer from the Dept. Of Agriculture since June. I received the following letter from Dr. Bruce Schmucker, Chief, Division of Regulations and Compliance, this month. As I would expect he has been unwilling to say whether this will be enforced or not. I am not a lawyer but believe that it would be difficult or impossible to enforce this in court because the definitions in the PA Code (Title7, Chapter 3, Section 1)clearly exempt all animals except mammals and birds from the health certificate requirement. The decision by the Department to supercede those definitions with those from The Domestic Animal Act (Act 100, 1996) without making changes to the regulations themselves is questionable. The application of the definition of "animal" quoted in the following letter would result in the health certificate requirement applying to everything from elephants to mealworms.

I spoke to Dr. Schmucker this morning and he stated that they are only including reptiles in the requirement. This selective application of the definitions from Act 100 to Title 7, Chapter 3 makes it even more questionable. Personally I don't think it will stand. If it does it has the potential to destroy not just the reptile trade in PA, but the entire pet industry. My guess is that, except for birds and dogs every animal in every pet shop in the state is there illegally according to this interpretation. It is unlikely that the Department would begin enforcing this requirement now, but not impossible.

I have been waiting for final resolution of this issue, the turtle regulation issue, and the question of the inclusion of color morphs and offspring of legally possessed wild caught reptiles in the Fish and Boat Commission regulations before posting here. Since you asked I thought I'd post the info I have so far on health certificates. In my opinion all these issues are still unresolved. I will post the final results of my efforts when I have exhausted the possibilities of changing these policies. If anyone has questions please email me privately or call me at 724-593-7341. Sorry so long!

Here is the letter:

September 16, 2003

Mr. Fred Bruckman
303 U. P. Church Road
Ligonier, PA 15658

Dear Mr. Bruckman:

I am responding to your email of September 11 requesting further clarification of the necessity of needing a Certificate of Veterinary Inspection to import reptiles into Pennsylvania. I apologize that my earlier reply contained an element of confusion. I trust that the following fully answers your concerns.

Act 1996 - 100, The Domestic Animal Act, sets the tone by defining animal as "A living nonhuman organism having sensation and the power of voluntary movement and requiring for its existence oxygen and organic food." and domestic animal as "An animal maintained in captivity. This term also includes the germ plasm, embryos and fertile ova of such animals". These definitions take precedence over conflicting definitions in Regulations at Title 7, Chapter 3.

Title 7, Chapter 3, Section 3.3 (b) states, "Animals imported into this Commonwealth shall be individually identified on and accompanied by an approved interstate health certificate. Dogs, as provided in Section 3.92 (relating to show dogs exempt for 30 days) feeder steers and spayed heifers, and healthy animals consigned for immediate slaughter are exempt." Please note the current nomenclature for a 'health certificate' is 'Certificate of Veterinary Inspection'.

Thus, under The Domestic Animal Act and Title 7, Chapter 3, Section 3.3 (b), both cited above, an approved Certificate of Veterinary Inspection is required of all reptiles being imported into Pennsylvania.

Please contact me (717 783-9550) if you have additional questions.

Sincerely,

Bruce Schmucker, VMD

cc: Bill Adams
Region 4
File

Thanks for the reply Fred, not to mention all the research you've been doing on this recently for the breeders trying to go by 'the rules', yet take a 2 X 4 in the mouth every time they do.

So ... the way I read this is if you are not a PA resident, you CAN BE SITED if you are a vendor at a Pa show without a vet Health Certificate for all of your animals.

I doubt all out-of-state vendors of the Hamburg Show will comply with this. Even if you wanted to and tried to, it would be next to impossible to get a vet to examine 100 baby snakes and lizards, not to mention affording having it done at $25-40 each animal ... all for a certificate that expires in 30 days.

So my next question is how many non Pa residents will still set up regardless of not having the 'required' paper work and risk the chance of being busted ?

Just an FYI, the week before the last Hamburg show, I was in the vet's office with one of the turtles, and the technician said that a gentleman had been in the day before with dozens of snakes for health certficates. I had assumed it was a vendor for Hamburg, as the vet was in Baltimore, and we have many snake breeders in the area. How many animals can be included in a USDA health certificate, ten? I've gotten them for sulcata when shipping them to adopters. The form itself was less than $30, and if you are on good terms with your vet, he or she might charge only one fee for the office visit. I know any extra cost is problematic, but you would be dividing approximately $70 (one office visit and one health certificate) among 10 animals - less if you have more animals in one visit. That's definately giving the in-state breeders an advantage.

I must say, after talking with some of the people that attended the last show, it seems that the quality of the animals increased dramatically from shows past. One question we might want to ask ourselves is why did it take the threat of legal action to raise the over-all quality of animals for sale?

Katrina

Katrina ;

It's not having better quality animals for sale / on display that I'm arguing about, it's the INDIVIDUAL health certificates - which is only another trick the 'authorities' are using to try and coax most breeders into throwing in the towel.

I would love to see an 'On-Site Vet' MANDATORY at ALL SHOWS to keep the puking, underweight, dehydrated , ready-for-the-freezer animals out of the shows. The Virginia shows used to do just that ... employ a good vet for the day to walk around looking at things as the dealers set up.

But when I talked to my herp vet's techs in Daytona this summer, they told me that they think that the 'collection health certificate' - one that covered their known patients entire collections - doesn't cut it anymore nor will the 'on site vet' arrangement and that the new rule was pushing for an individual, hands-on examination of each animal by the vendors own vet, which is ridiculous.

The 'individual certificate' isn't aimed at putting quality animals onto the tables and keeping unhealthy ones off, it's to try put an end to the shows.

Though an inconvience for some out-of-state breeders who became regular vendors at various shows and enjoyed doing them, it won't stop the ones who are serious about their herp breeding. The serious, hard-core breeders will now meet in private like they used to do before the sawp became a regular meeting place. When it gets driven to that point it may APPEAR that the quality of animals will be up like you say beause these regulations might knock alot of the ones dealing in bad animals out of the picture.

The quality animals were always there , just out numbered at times by the unhealty ones at some of the unregulated shows.

I couldn't agree more Jim. For breeders living in PA the problem is potentially much worse. If the current interpretation of the law stands the Dept. of Agriculture could visit our homes and confiscate and destroy any animal that came from out of state and doesn't have a health certificate. It is unclear whether getting the certificate after the fact would satisfy the requirement. Technically it would not. Even if it would the financial burden would be enormous. To bring a leopard gecko colony of 100 animals that originally came from out of state into compliance would cost $3700(my vets price). Figuring the adults are worth an average of $80 each this is nearly 50% of the value of the collection.I know breeders who would need to bring upwards of 700 animals into compliance. Even at $7 per animal the financial burden would be enormous.

The agencies involved are responsible for protecting the public health and the agriculture industry. These certificates do nothing to protect either. The only significant zoonotic disease (salmonella) that reptiles might carry would not be apparent without diagnostic testing in addition to inspection. The threat from heartwater disease comes from only a few species and in no way justifies an across the board requirement. It is unlikely that this would happen but it could and if an unfriendly competitor or animal rights activist were to complain to the Dept. I'm not sure they would have any choice but to act on the complaint.

My concern is that I have terciopelos from two different populations.....a group of 10 I imported from Costa Rica(WHICH are accompanied by a health certificate issued by the vet in Costa Rica...required for export from there) and offspring from my own cbb litter. How is an inspector going to be able to tell the difference of which are which?

Also, the health certificate from Costa RIca...lists each species and number exported on one certificate. If that satisfies Federal USFW requirements, why shouldn't it satisfy interstate commerce requirements?

Just my $0.02. Jim's right...like the HSUS this has nothing to do with Reptile health...it's aim is too shut down reptile trade.

Matt

I know PA has tons of puppy mills, so there might not be too many puppies coming into the state for pet stores, but most puppy mills use the multiple animal USDA health certificate. So, are the stores getting out-of-state puppies being checked for "individual" health certificates? If your state officials get pissy about reptiles, turn the tables and make a stink about them not enforcing other animals (if this is the case).

Katrina

If the law says :"Animals imported into this Commonwealth shall be individually identified on and accompanied by an approved interstate health certificate

I don't interpret this to mean each animal has to have a seperate certificate, just has to identify the animals that were examined, I believe it would be something along these lines:

I Dr. Smith have examined the following and find them to be healthy:

10 green tree frogs
20 Komodo dragons
5 Tuatara

Signed, Dr. Smith

..."I don't interpret this to mean each animal has to have a seperate certificate, just has to identify the animals that were examined"...

I was told by David Hess that this was what was required and not a health certificate for each animal.
This is my first show in PA. and it has been frustrating not being able to get definitive answers about this subject.
John Phillips

John;

Hope that is all that is required for you - it's not as bad as one for each animal. Like I mentioned before , I talked to my herp vet and he was still unsure if a permit like that was going to be OK any longer. Back in August there was still talk of individual certificates. But it still is a problem for those without a herp vet in their state - which is where you're supossed to get them from. My herp vet is 2 1/2 hours away in another state and my 'dog vet' here at home will have nothing to do with it as they don't approve of keeping 'exotics' at all.

Either way, this still doesn't solve the problem of a certificate for venomous since very few vets will allow venomous snakes in their offices due to insurance and local ordinance rules which if violated could put their entire vet practice at risk.

With the big draw of Hamburg being a 'Hot Show' I'm interested how all the Hamburg venomous dealers outside of PA were able to get certificates. Are these certificates required to get a table or just something that's needed if authorities showed up and did a check ?

Jim,

Haven't gotten them yet. If I have animals pre-sold, I will get them. I am contacting my vet next week. Fortunately she is a burmese python breeder, and member of our herp society, so I think I can actually get them(In fact she is the one who took the durissus blood samples for the study I mentioned to you).

Matt

You don't have to have health certificates to get a table or to sell animals at Hamburg, they would only be needed if there was some from Dept. of ag there checking and enforcing the reg which is not likely.

Really, I think everyone should calm down, there have been no problems at these shows previously and the law has always been in effect, it's nothing new.

This all got started when copies of the regs were handed out to vendors at a Hamburg show by the show organizer but there has not been any enforcement. It was the same papers that were given to us at the pet store and like I said the guy said "here's the regs , they're not currently enforced but you should know they are on the books........"

keep in mind there are 2 departments involved in this Dept. of Ag in the matter of importing animals and dept. of health that restricts turtles. Hopefully both are to busy to worry about reptiles......

I don't know of any individual or pet store that has had any problem with dept. of ag or dept. of health in regards to reptiles that were properly cared for, Does any one know of any?

Granted there's always a first time butI think it would have to be triggered by an incident.....

Now the PA game commision is a different story they will bust you for native species and exotic mammals in a heartbeat!They do not seem to be concerned about non-native reptiles, they were inspecting an exotic animal auction in Lebanon last weekend and there were ball pythons, corns, american alligators and they passed right over them.

- Dumergirl

You might be right, but The department as been contacted about this and it would seem to me that if they were going to check this would be the show that it would happen at. I hope you are right. I for one would just like a definitive answer to this from the state. I have worked to long and spent to much money to have some inspector take my animals or remove me from a show.
John

Just how I feel. It's one thing to be 'written up' and pay a fine and another to have animals confiscated and possibly destroyed. None of us knows for sure what will happen.

Even if you fought it and won like someone here brought up, who wants their animals returned in after month or longer in near death condition ? You think the 'authorities' are capable or even care about giving the animals the care they need while everything gets sorted out ?

I'm not a broker and everything I sell or trade is from my own breedings from investments of alot of my money and alot of time. Doing shows with the chance of losing them isn't worth the risk to me.

I see more and more private meetings / dealings in the future for many of us if this pattern of silly regulations continue. It's the way we used to do it in the days before swap meets and shows.

I am calm.

This "law" has not been on the books for a long time. This interpretation is only a couple of months old. The law is still not on "the books".

I'd bet that there were people in Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan thinking the same way before June.

The PA Game Commission has no juristiction over reptiles so it is logical that they passed them over at the show. In PA reptiles are regulated by the Fish and Boat Commission for some reason.

You are probably absolutely right when you say these laws won't be enforced, but, like Jim, I don't think it is worth taking a chance.

Some of these regulatuions are just plain wrong. They do nothing to protect the public or agriculture from the risk of disease. They need to be changed and folks who stay completely calm and just figure they won't be enforced will not accomplish that. PLEASE SEE MY CALL TO ACTION POST AND TAKE ACTION!!!

Does this include the sperm that they artificially inseminate cattle with?

yes

I have been a long time vendor at all the area shows, PA & MD. I have stopped doing the shows because of the outrageous laws that keep popping up regarding the sale and/or trade of reptiles.

My whole business is not shows...Thank God! However, needing a health cert. for all reptiles entering PA is causing the pet industry, as a whole, a great deal of undo stress and hardship. Many of my smaller pet shops have closed up shop because they can not keep up with the ever changing laws regarding reptiles and other small exotic type pets. The Fish & Wild Life (F&WL)in Pa is a joke...Half of the people in the Harrisburg office are clueless in regards to the laws pertaining to reptiles and exotic pets. I know of several different occassions where F&WL have gone out to pet shops and have taken there animals, have killed the animals, have sold the animals taken.... Because their interpretation of the law is different then the next persons interpretation of the same law.

There is no quick fix to the problem. Many vendors have stopped doing the shows all together, paying for space and then don't show up. The shows are not like they use to be. I always had a great time speaking with the public and educating the different people on the proper care of the reptiles they were purchasing. Plus, it was a great outlet for me to sell some animals that I had alot of, or the more exotic things that pet stores don't buy.

Good luck to those of you still doing the shows....
Exotic Pets-Wholesale

movement to all reptile keepers,breeders plus other exotics. Again ( as always ) a definition of interpretation by some agency. Or that was what some posters alluded to. Did someone say it was a GOOD idea ? Right.........Well if they did.....get a clue to what reality is about ! I've been around long enough to see no laws, no bans, none of this intrusive BS going on or happenings. With the above changes....has it stopped anything ? No ! Just made it harder to deal with. Has the increase of venomous shows/sales caused anymore venomation on humans ? No ! Has the vet checks decreased the imports/wildcuaghts or sale of sick animals ? probably not since it has gone underground so to say and still can be shipped/sold to and or within private parties. I would much rather see what i was buying at a show even if it was " sick " then trying to ship from a wholeseller a bunch of " sickies ". How many vets are qualified to look/interseted enough in deciding what is sick or healthy in any manner on reptiles and at a reptile show / What...would they do a fecal right on the premises on every freaking lizrad or snake ? Why should a breeder have to pay what seems to be an outragious sum in order to sale at a reptile show. I mean all one has to do is to look at the intrusive measure/s of guns and gun shows. I don't think this has cut down on the amount of handguns that much in the USA. LOL !

Chambo ( the fact and number guy )

Not that I'm opposed to people owning guns ...

But how crazy is it when you can buy a hand gun - but you can't buy a turtle ???

So what's the punishment if they actually decide to enforce this? Most likely it would just be a warning and you'd have to leave with your animals or a small fine like a traffic ticket, does anyone know?

I think that basically the health department is way to busy with their primary business, inspecting restaraunts etc. that they would have little interest in enforcing an old law UNLESS their is an incident that would force them to do so.

I would say keep on doing business as usual until told otherwise ....

I work in a pet store in PA, we get reptiles almost weekly from Florida, no health certificates, and have never had a problem in the past 5 years. In 5 years we have seen one inspector, from the Dept. of Agriculture doing a routine bird inspection, he gave us a copy of the turtle law and importing law , same as was handed out at Hamburg and basically said "here's the law that is on the books, it is not currently enforced but you should know about it", looked over the reptiles and left, never saw him again!

- Dumergirl

First regarding the listing of individual animals on health certificates. The law says that they must be "individually identified" on the certificate not "listed". Dr schmucker has intimated to me that they might accept "batching", they allow it with baby chickens, but at this point that is not the policy. Multiple animals may be listed on a certificate but must be "individually identified". The reg was designed for larger animals that can be identified with chips, brands, bands, and the like. Since there is no way to individually identify multiple reptiles with the possible exception of photographs in some cases I can only interpret what I am being told to mean that each animal would require a certificate.

PA has a separate law covering dogs but I have thought that if things are not reinterpreted it might be good to show the ridiculous consequences of this reg by "making a stink" about all the tropical fish, mealworms, hermit crabs,... that are technically covered by the reg. I just hate to put anyones business at risk by doing it. It is a last resort.

I am still attempting to force agriculture to put this reg through the proper process of rewriting and publishing for public comment. Currently there is no regulation that states this requirement. The reg they cite excludes reptiles and amphibians by definition. They are contending that the definitions in the reg are superceded by one from a 1996 statute that defines animal as, "A living nonhuman organism having sensation and the power of voluntary movement and requiring for its existence oxygen and organic food." The application of this definition to the requirement for vet certificates is potentially disastrous to the entire pet industry. If an organization opposed to the keeping of all pets were to get a hold of this and start making complaints it could shut down every pet shop in the state.

I would suggest checking with Dave Hess or Walt Loose to see if the show is requiring the certificates. It doesn't surprise me that he has been told that "batching" is all that is required for the certificates. Every regional office seems to have a different answer to these questions. I think the only way to get definitive answers is to get them from the top guy and in writing.

PLEASE!! IF YOU ARE READING THIS MAKE THE TIME TO CALL AND WRITE DR. JOHN ENCK VMD. He is the the Director of the Bureau of Animal Health and Diagnostic Testing for the PA Department of Agriculture and the state veterinarian. HE HAS THE POWER TO CHANGE THIS REQUIREMENT. I wouldn't call asking questions I would suggest complaining that the regulation is unjustified. The only rationale that they have given me for this requirement, after repeated requests, is the risk of salmonella and heart water disease. Salmonella is not apparent on visual inspection and heart water has been addressed by a ban on the importation of the animals of concern and a vet certificate requirement for interstate transportation of the same. So, the regulation does nothing to stop salmonella infected animals from entering the state and the state is protected from the introduction of heart water by federal requirements. There is no justification for the regulation!!! Here is the contact information for Dr Enck:

Dr John I Enck, VMD
Director, Bureau of Animal Health and Diagnostic Services
2301 N. Cameron St., Room 409
Harrisburg, PA 17110-9408
717-783-6677

He is the person who has the authority to change this situation. If they don't know people are disturbed by this requirement they will never do anything about it. Please call in state or out of state and have anyone you know who is sympathetic to this situation do the same. At least call, write a letter if you can make the time.

They might just send you and your animals packing, or they might cite you and fine you and confiscate your animals and put them in quarentine at your expense until they decide to release them. The animals that are specifically identified in the law may be confiscated and destroyed. This doesn't appear to apply to reptiles and amphibians but neither does the health certificate requirement.

We really need to get some clarity to the situation quick! I have just found out about this, but have been doing the Hamburg show for the last two years without the knowlege of this law. We have planned to take around 600 animals to this show, but it is not even remotely feasable to get health certificates for all of the animals at a potential $15 each!!! The vet part is not a problem, but there is now way to justify this total ($9,000). I really hate to loose all of the money that I already have sunk into this show, but I cannot afford to do it at this costs. Is there some kind of blanket certificate that will show that all animals were inspected, and a copy of this could be given with every animal sold??? If there is someone out there that can answer these questions please do so. With all of the cut throats out there on the internet that are selling animals way below retail this has become our main source of income from the reptile industry, so please help!

Thanks,
Jeremy Coates

Owner: Exotic Gems Reptile
Exotic Gems Reptile

Here is the letter from Pa Agriculture again. I'd suggest calling Dr Schmucker, explaining your problem, and asking him what you should do. I'd appreciate it if you would post the results of your call. Dr. Schmucker is the guy in charge of enforcement for agriculture. I think he has the final word.

My sense is they will not be enforcing this requirement in the near future, but I wouldn't go so far as to advise anyone to ignore them. If they did enforce them the consequences would be terrible.

September 16, 2003

Mr. Fred Bruckman
303 U. P. Church Road
Ligonier, PA 15658

Dear Mr. Bruckman:

I am responding to your email of September 11 requesting further
clarification of the necessity of needing a Certificate of Veterinary
Inspection to import reptiles into Pennsylvania. I apologize that my
earlier reply contained an element of confusion. I trust that the following
fully answers your concerns.

Act 1996 - 100, The Domestic Animal Act, sets the tone by defining animal as
"A living nonhuman organism having sensation and the power of voluntary
movement and requiring for its existence oxygen and organic food." and
domestic animal as "An animal maintained in captivity. This term also
includes the germ plasm, embryos and fertile ova of such animals". These
definitions take precedence over conflicting definitions in Regulations at
Title 7, Chapter 3.

Title 7, Chapter 3, Section 3.3 (b) states, "Animals imported into this
Commonwealth shall be individually identified on and accompanied by an
approved interstate health certificate. Dogs, as provided in Section 3.92
(relating to show dogs exempt for 30 days) feeder steers and spayed heifers,
and healthy animals consigned for immediate slaughter are exempt." Please
note the current nomenclature for a 'health certificate' is 'Certificate of
Veterinary Inspection'.

Thus, under The Domestic Animal Act and Title 7, Chapter 3, Section 3.3 (b),
both cited above, an approved Certificate of Veterinary Inspection is
required of all reptiles being imported into Pennsylvania.

Please contact me (717 783-9550) if you have additional questions.

Sincerely,

Bruce Schmucker, VMD

Here is a copy of an email I just received from Dr. Schmuker. It sounds like to me that they will allow and even states that it is the norm to "batch" animals on a single certificate. Also, is a copy of email that I sent asking for clarification. I hope this clarifies some of the questions.

September 30, 2003

Dear Mr. Phillips:

I appreciate your inquiry of September 27 and trust that the following provides an understanding of
the purpose of and process of obtaining a Certificate of Veterinary Inspection (CVI).

The CVI is an important element in reducing the risk of introduction of and exposure to animal and
zoonotic diseases. Certificates of Veterinary Inspection, formally know as Health Certificates,
are issued daily throughout the United States and the world for transporting various species across
state and international borders. For interstate and international travel, it is the responsibility
of the veterinarian executing the CVI to assure that the CVI is completely and accurately executed
in accordance with the test and examination requirements of the recipient state or country. It is
the responsibility of the owner or caretaker transporting animal to assure that the CVI accompanies
the shipment.

'Batching' of two or more - there is no finite limit - of the same species on a singular CVI is the
normal, acceptable practice. Pennsylvania allows multiple species on a CVI provided that the
testing and examination requirements are met and properly documented for each species.

The Domestic Animal Law (Act 1996-100) provides for quarantine of animals that have not met
Pennsylvania's importation requirements and the potential for criminal and civil penalties.

Please contact me if you have additional questions.

Sincerely,

Bruce Schmucker, VMD, Chief
Regulations and Compliance Division

I hope this helps.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Phillips [mailto:johnmp@gte.net]
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 6:36 PM
To: bschmucker@state.pa.us
Subject: Hamburg reptile show!!!!

Dear Dr. Schmucker,

I am trying to get a definitive answer to the question of needing
individual health certificates for each of my snakes that I plan to
bring into PA from Virginia to the Hamburg reptile show in October. Some
people that I have talked to are under the impression that we will be
able to get a "batch" certificate that certifies that a vet as looked at
each of the listed animals. Others are under the impression that we need
individual certificates for each animal.
I am concerned because of the huge financial burden that individual
health certificates will cause. What are the consequences of not getting
individual certificates? Will there be fines imposed? Will animals be
confiscated and destroyed?
What type of disease are they trying to prevent from coming into the
state?..Samonella? this cannot be diagnosed by a visual exam.

There are a lot of us that need exact information on how to comply with
this law. This is a large financial undertaking for most of us that
breed reptiles and we all want to follow the rules. I for one plan on
being in compliance with whatever laws there are but I need more info.
There is a thread started on the Herp Law/CITES forum on kingsnake.com
that you should take a look at.
I just want someone to eliminate the confusion on this subject so that
everyone can make up there mind as to whether or not it is worth going
to shows in PA.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.

John Phillips

so what are we looking at the costs and stuff..is a vet going to be looking at all individual animals and then list them on one certificate for one price, or ya still have to pay for each ind. animal and put them on one cert.

Beware of Phony certificates that are sure to pop up at some point in this..

On the bright side.. at least the dept. agricluture, fish and game, fish and boat, and health ppl aren't "profitting" per se off this by having us go to their "vets" or their "officials" to be approved..

now that this is cleared up.. what affect will the csv's have on the guarantee of an animal...i mean if it dies for some unknown reason. Is this cert. gonna release the vendor from that. that has to be looked at..and has a ton of legal ramifiactions of its own.

what other diseases do we have to be careful of...i mean if something "new" comes down the road, will we have to all those animals retested?

Definitely a whole boatload of answers that'll still need clarification..

A lot depends on your vet. My vet will charge a standard office visit of $70.00 the cost of the health certificate which I have been told is $20.00. I suppose it will also depend on how many animals you are asking your vet to check.
I don't beleive that this will change our liablities as this ,from what I understand, is a visual exam and as such does not "test" for any illness...yet. What will change this is if a jurisdication wants animals tested for specific diseases. Then if we sell an animal and it dies from this disease after getting a health certificate saying it was clean or someone gets sick then we could be liable but so will the vet and the lab.
The risks are inherent of our business and it is always best to raise the healthiest animals possible.

SEE YA IN HAMBURG!!!!!
John

It is great that we now know that the animals can be batched on certificates. Keep in mind that the certificates, according to the PA Code are only good for 60 days.

I for one find this situation unacceptable and would encourage everyone to continue to oppose the requirement by questioning its justification. Dr. Schmucker is not specific about the zoonotic diseases of concern. If, as he has indicated to me, salmonella and heartwater are the only diseases they are concerned about, there is no justification for and across the board requirement. We need to let them know that.

In addition the fact remains that what they are requiring is not what the law says!

I sent the following to The Department on 9-29.

September 26, 2003

Dr. John I. Enck Jr., VMD
Director, Bureau of Animal Health and Diagnostic Services
Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture
2301 N. Cameron St., Room 409
Harrisburg, PA 17110-9408

Dear Dr. Enck:

I am writing concerning the Department’s requirement for a Certificate of Veterinary Inspection for reptiles imported into the Commonwealth. I was recently made aware of this requirement through correspondence and discussions with Dr. Bruce Schmucker. I find this requirement very disturbing for a number of reasons.

The procedure used to support this requirement seems to me to be improper. The Agriculture code at Title 3, Chapter 7, Section 3.1 defines “animal” as “An equine or bovine animal, sheep, goat, pig, dog or cat and any wild animal under domestication and embryo, ova and semen.” It then defines “wild animal” as “A mammal or bird other than a domestic animal as defined by section 1 of the act of July 22, 1913 (P. L. 928, No. 441) (3 P. S. § 331).” This obviously excludes all animals other than certain mammals and birds from the requirements of Section 3. Dr. Schmucker has told me that the Department considers these definitions to be superceded by the definition of “animal” in Act 1996- 100, “A living nonhuman organism having sensation and the power of voluntary movement and requiring for its existence oxygen and organic food.” This seems to me to be an improper application of this definition. There is no question that Act 100 - 1996 authorizes the Department to promulgate such a regulation, but I believe this needs to be done through the normal procedure of publishing the regulation for public comment. Chapter 3, Section 3.1 was revised in 1997 and 2000 without the applicable changes being made to the definitions in question. The failure to amend the regulations to agree with the statute makes it nearly impossible for a citizen of the Commonwealth to understand the requirements based on a reading of the law.

The consequences of applying the definition of “animal” from The Domestic Animal Law to the provisions in Chapter 3 are potentially disastrous to the pet industry in Pennsylvania. This would result in the requirement for a Certificate of Veterinary Inspection being extended to every reptile, amphibian, fish, insect, crustacean, protozoan, mollusk… . Dr. Schmucker assures me the requirement would only be extended to reptiles as a matter of policy, but the letter of the law would require certificates for all animals. This creates the possibility that a disgruntled employee, unscrupulous competitor, or (worst case, but most likely) an animal rights group would file complaints against pet businesses for failure to obtain certificates when importing animals into the state. I can understand that the Department might, as a matter of policy, selectively enforce the requirement, but doubt that it would be possible to act selectively on complaints. As I understand it the letter of the law takes precedence over its spirit. If after careful consideration the Department believes that this requirement is necessary to protect the public health or the agriculture industry it would seem more prudent to revise the regulation to include reptiles rather than apply the broad definition from the Domestic Animal Law to Chapter 3.

With regard to reptiles specifically, I do not understand the rationale for this requirement. In my discussions with Dr. Schmucker he agreed that salmonellosis and heart water disease were the only pathogens of concern in reptiles. Salmonella contamination would not be apparent on inspection. I support the federal requirement for veterinary inspection of sulcata, Bell’s hingeback, and leopard tortoises. I do not believe the risk of heart water justifies the requirement for veterinary inspection of all reptiles.

The burden this requirement places on hobby and commercial breeders in the Commonwealth is enormous. For example, for a modest breeding colony of leopard geckos (100 animals) that came from out of state, it would cost $3700 to obtain certificates (my vets price). The entire colony would have a value of only $7000. There are thousands of people in the state who would be adversly affected by this requirement if they were to comply. If the department believes that this is a necessary requirement it ought to be put in place through the usual procedure with a provision to grandfather the reptiles already in the state.

Most reptiles are priced under $200 with many specimens selling for less than
$100. A $25-$50 veterinary certificate significantly impacts the profitability/ price of these animals.

Many out of state breeders have stopped attending reptile sales in the Commonwealth because of the competitive disadvantage created by this requirement. Reptile shows are an integral part of the reptile market in Pennsylvania. In general there is a much higher quality animal at these shows. The majority of the vendors are breeders and genuinely concerned about their customers and animals. The elimination of out of state breeders does a great disservice to the reptile community in the Commonwealth.

In summary the procedure followed to institute this regulation is questionable, the selective application of the Act 100-1996 definition of “animal” to include only reptiles in the requirements of Chapter 3 is questionable, the potential consequences to the pet industry of the complete application of the definition to Chapter 3 are dire, veterinary certification would do nothing to prevent salmonella infected reptiles from entering the Commonwealth because it is not apparent on inspection, heart water disease has already been addressed by Federal requirements, the financial burden on both commercial and hobby breeders would result in noncompliance or the inability to make a profit (this puts the honest citizens who try to make a go of it and comply at an enormous competitive disadvantage. It punishes the good guys!), the low price of many reptile specimens is significantly impacted by the cost of veterinary inspections, and out of state breeders will be unable to compete with in state breeders.

In view of these facts I respectfully request that the Department withdraw the requirement for a Certificate of Veterinary Inspection to import reptiles and amphibians into Pennsylvania until it has reviewed the necessity for the requirement and the regulations are revised through proper procedures.

I would suggest as an alternative, a requirement that a warning about the risk of salmonella and instructions for proper sanitation procedures be disseminated with every reptile sold on a retail basis in Pennsylvania. This would insure that the public is educated about the dangers of salmonella and how to minimize the risk of infection. It seems to me this would more effectively accomplish the Departments mission while allowing the reptile trade in the Commonwealth to continue without unduly burdensome regulation.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

Sincerely,

Fred Bruckman
303 U.P. Church Rd.
Ligonier, PA 15658

cc: Representative Jess Stairs

I'm wondering, as a potential out-of-state vendor, why I was not made aware of this possible problem by the show manager??!!! I do not recall seeing anything on the application form that said anything about a health certificate.

Really? What application did you get? The one I'm looking at states the commonwealth of PA requires all animal dealers/haulers be licensed through them, and gives the contact address and phone number. It also says on the confirmation of reserved table space that as a reminder PA fish and wildlife may be at the show, and that it is the responsibility of the vendor to know the lagality of what they intend to bring, and again gives contact info at the PA Non Game and Endangered Species Commission.
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Sam
Gecko Den
Email Me

i got the same thing as you. I don't remeber me seeing this before on any fliers in the past and have done these shows for a while..I am just a small hobbbyist that enjoys breeding.. i do not make it a business. I don't really have a clue what to fill out on that app. cept for my name and address.. after that nothing really applies to me..

If you are only selling animals from your own breeding program you do not need a dealer/ hauler license. The requirement only applies to three party transactions. You do still need a vet certificate but all of your animals can be listed on one.

I am in PA. i'm not importing anything in..

The animal dealer hauler license is a totally different thing the the health certificates. And your right it is not listed on the application that I got. I was told this through an email conversation w/ David Hess. Apparently this hasn't come to light until the last show. It is my understanding that the vendors were made aware of this law, which as been on the books, by the show promoter at the last show.
John