Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This was definelty an accidental experiment. But i usually don't write about when these things happen. i figured in the next year or two a topic will come up on the forum that I have first hand experience in and now you can all share with me in real time, rather than talk about it after the fact~

In an effort to rid my snake room of gnats last night, I decided to place a industrial fan in the window and leave it running on full all night.

This mornaing i realized there was a temperature snap last night here in Georgia. So I went to check the room. It was freezing. I immediatly checked the eggs with a temp gun because the fan was blowing in that direction. They were 57 degrees F.

Well, I guess I will find out the hard way if these eggs can take such cold. They are being heated rather quickly with a heat cable and room heater. I gotta admit I am quite worried as i have never felt eggs feel that cold. Now the temps will spike real fast and not sure if that is good either.

So far i have about 40 cluthes with several just being laid yesterday and the day before. So another thing that will be interesting is if the earlier clucthes are less resilient to cold than ones that are developing and are more mature.

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

I bet any eggs that were good will still hatch.
Tom Stevens
-----
TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

I hope so Tom. Thanks for the confidence. i needed that this morning.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

>>I hope so Tom. Thanks for the confidence. i needed that this morning.
>>-----
>>www.Bluerosy.com

They are tough, I would agree with Tom. My first batch of eggs ever (when I was almost 10) were WC splendida eggs. I incubated them in my eves where it got over 100 degrees in the afternoon. I turned the eggs once a week. That's right I turned the eggs once a week! (this was 1972). They all hatched and they were perfect.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Things have changed, these days you can't turn the eggs.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Things have changed, these days you can't turn the eggs.
>>-----
>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> J Sierra

You certainly can and my experience is proof, but I wouldn't and don't. My point here, for those dense enough to have missed it is that the eggs are tougher than one J. Sierra might think they are.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Many years ago, Ernie Wagner and I juggled eggs(two man) to prove they can be turned. They all hatched and luckily we did not drop any.

Once, I had a ferret get a clutch of corn eggs and hid them. I found them in the couch full of holes and such. They all hatched.

Some reptile eggs cannot be turned, but colubrids are not one of them. Cheers

Yeah I wouldn't admit that to anyone. This is like a Circus now.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>> Some reptile eggs cannot be turned, but colubrids are not one of them. Cheers

It's an interesting observation. Bird eggs, which must be turned, have "slick" shells that facilitate that movement, and yet snake eggs, which are described as unaffected by turning, are laid in clutches that stick together and hold the eggs immobile in their fixed orientation. I wonder what evolutionary advantage accrues from the clutches being laid in that way? It's easy to imagine if they were laid singly they could be pushed into cozy corners of the "nest" site, and if separated there'd be no contamination of good eggs by bad eggs. In fact, an evolutionary (survival) advantage would accrue if the eggs were deposited singly in different locations--a predator would find only one, or a few, rather than the whole clutch. Thoughts, anyone?

I'd love to see someone who's producing hundreds of babies annually dedicate a breeding season to isolating and rolling half the eggs on a regular basis, and leaving the others in their fixed positions. (I'm a statistics guy vs an anecdotal guy). Anyone here want to volunteer for that? It would have to be a LARGE sample to be meaningful.

two reasons that come to mind for eggs being laid together:
1) to allow for incubation, as in the case of bird eggs
2) when attached, to maintain the orientation of eggs
anything else come to mind?

It seems that when a clutch is bonded together it also helps maintain the stability in temperature. Because they are all touching and conduct heat to each other.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

You thought I was serious? It was obviously a joke! My point which you did not get is that today we have many rules that people think are written in stone but they are not. I also told Rainer over and over his eggs would be fine, but He needed to hear it from you! Sorry if I speak my mind. I am very honest and I don't tolerate BS. I don't give people advice that could get their snakes eaten! If I want to take that risk it's mine to take but I don't give wierd advice to people with less experience here on this site. By the way are your cage doors open? Snakes should be flocking from all over to crowd themselves into your cages. Sorry, I had enough.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I think I got you a little mixed up with FR but if you read my earlier post I was being a bit sarcastic. Yet i was actually agreeing with you. I see how it could have been misunderstood. I am still getting over the Egg Juggling thing.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I don't give people advice that could get their snakes eaten! If I want to take that risk it's mine to take but I don't give wierd advice to people with less experience here on this site

jorge,

One day you will regret that statement and your unwillingness to see that there is no danger. Common sense is required when keeping snakes , mice, cats, dogs etc together. First make sure you don't put starving animals together. Second let them bond .Would anyone in their right mind put two pitbulls together that have never been properly introduced?

It is all common sense and this site is to educate PEOPLE. ESPECIALLY LIKE NEWBIES. That is how one learns.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer I had 3 speckled kings that lived happily together for two years and were fed often and one day I came in and I had one really fat one! I also had it happen again with Florida Kings! I learned my lesson. I also had a rat snake eat another rat snake years ago when I used to just throw the food in and leave. I can only assume they went after the same mouse and one ate the other. In all instances they were about the same size. The meals were too much and all three regurgitaded after a day or so.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Rainer I had 3 speckled kings that lived happily together for two years and were fed often and one day I came in and I had one really fat one! I also had it happen again with Florida Kings! I learned my lesson. I also had a rat snake eat another rat snake years ago when I used to just throw the food in and leave. I can only assume they went after the same mouse and one ate the other. In all instances they were about the same size. The meals were too much and all three regurgitaded after a day or so.

Here is a little known fact. Ever go to hawaii? Most people go into the water and I am guessing at any given weekend hundreds thousands come in cotact with the ocean. Yet the HAwaain chain has more Tiger sharks (A KNOWN MAN EATER)than anywhere else. And they stay close to shore. ExpertS say there is usually a tiger swimming within a few yards of almost anywhere you go swimming. Yet they don't attack very often. Given the percentages of possible encounters why is it so safe? Why is that? because there are LOTS of fish for them to eat. they are not hungry and therefore rarley attack humans.

i keep close to 1000 different types of kingsnakes, Milks, ratsnakes together year round for the last 20 years.

It is all common sense. if you know your snakes are aggressive eaters, then FEED them well and don't offer one mouse to two very hungrey snakes that you are not sure of. That is what happened to me over 20 years ago with some rosy boas. But "captive raised" rosys are known for extremly aggressive feeding behavior. Ever have a rosy latch onto your hand? Almost impossible to get them off.

Anyway, i think it is wrong to tell people not to go out into the rain because you got hit by lightening. Or like a woman and cars. When her car broke down for the first time down and she gets it owed to the garage. The mechanic tells her it was her battery. Then everytime for the rest of her life. when her car breaks down, she always concludes it must be the battery.lol!

my advice Jorge. If you ever go to hawaii. With your luck, don't swim in the ocean.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

N/P
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

They will be fine. Been there done that. Remember, many colubrid eggs overwinter. Cheers

n/p
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

That gives me a sigh of relief.

They are up to 78f now. I will check them later and in the following days to see what (if any) damage there was done.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

As Long as their temps change slowly, they are fine. Its rapid change that causes problems. But if that was a problem, you would be seeing it RIGHT NOW. THey would pop. Cheers

Well they are back up to 80f right now. I hope that was gradual enough over just a couple hours.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

You know, I have had temp fluctuation before. Over the many years i have eggs and they are always fine. Sometimes they get as low as mid 60's and even stay a constant 72 and no problems. But there seems to be a big difference between mid 60's and mid 50's. That's cold.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

CHILL-OMETOR reads .. Good luck ol timer RW

QUOTE
But there seems to be a big difference between mid 60's and mid 50's

I was born in the 50s ,60s and 70s 80s were good.......Girls and dirt bikes etc.....

Sorry to hear that . Hope it goes well.

I don't mean to be patronizing because you may have already triesd these but in case maybe they will be helpful?

I keep Plants in the cellar where I also keep my snakes so I have had issues with gnats at one time or another. Maybe not at the level you guys are talking though.

This is a "sticky trap" with a flourescent light that attracts them and you occassionally have to change them when they fill up.Larger versions are used in malls and restruants.

This is an egg shapes device with leds around the rim with a constantly working computer fan and a net inside that attracts the gnats and then are sucked in and you clean out the screen compartment in the bottom.

You can find these on Amazon etc. and are obviously more useful at night when the gnats are drawn to the uv/lights

Hope these might help.

Bob.

I am going to call that company and ask thm a few questions. Like will they let me try the product and send it back for a full return if it does not work.

i have tried numrous things for gnats. And none work or even make a dent. i am infested.. I open a snake drawer where a uneaten mouse was just sitting for 3 hours and thousands of gnats fly out. They fly into face,ears, nose, arms, YUK! I can't stand it! They are in all the units wether clean or not. A single fresh small stool attracts thousands of gnats in minutes.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Ever notice at cocktail hour you crack open a frosty and out of nowhere a gnat lands on the can! So i disolve some blue crystal fly bait and beer in a disposible dish/bowl and let em have at it good for about 2 days and lots of floating gnats and a few dead around the bowl

Yes, I have done that with saucers of juice and stuff.

Wow. These might not be helpful at that level. I think they are intended to lessen the problem. I go longer periods between watering sometimes to dry out the soil to kill the young developing. Not sure you have a similsr option.

There a product at green houses called "Gnatriol" thats an additive to soil to kill the developing young but I guess we would be reluctant to have it near snake eggs(it doesn't hurt plants). http://www.planetnatural.com/site/gnatrol.html

I know Orchid growers are now using a certain species of mites they sell that eat the developing stages of gnats but I would wonder if that could eventually be a problem in some other way.
http://www.hydroasis.com/hy/productdetail.aspx?id=714&product=Fungus Gnat Predators

I doubt this will help but sounds like good way to take out frustration? It's a tennis racket shaped bug zapper. I have read that there are safety concerns though of the residual bacteria around after bugs are zapped.
http://www.bugzapper.co.za/

I thought you were gonna say you played the drums to keep them away, lol.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I'm a bass player. The real LOW notes knock them out of the air LOL

Yeah it probably ruptures their internal organs, lol.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I am sure you may have heard this suggestion, but having a good share of iguanids (not of the green variety thanyouverymuch) I have produce in my reptile room ALL the time. I know the pain of spring and fall gnats and then the transfer from the vegetation to the snake feces. Yep OHHHH so FUN!

The fan traps are successful. I prefer the ones with lights. The FASTEST thing to get the bulk cleared up is to get a bowl that will be ruined. Get some cheap as dirt floral dish soap and mix heavily in the bowl with water. Place under a very hot lamp.

This will dissipate fairly quickly, which is why I use old bowls that can get ruined. Change 2-3 times a day. In low season I tend to just hang a sticky trap in the middle of the room, but I get decent sized infestations every spring and fall. Fall tends to be the worst.

Not sure if you have tried this and with how large I would assume your collection and room is, this may just be an additional support thing to try. My room is 10X10 so I have 3 stations set up. If I time it away from the blood pythons drop of poo, we are gravy. I also suspect with the gopher snake adopted, I will have less poo painting. Thus less area for the gnats to gnosh.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

>>... Plants in the cellar where I also keep my snakes

are you playing drums in the snake room?

I am a bass player but we practice for gigs at my house depending on what folks I play with and what kind of gig. I guess your wondering about damaging and stressing the animals with the vibrations/noise?

It's been a concern of mine too but I have been for years. I had a Pyro stressed when a 4 year old nephew was banging on cymbals as loud as he could and shooed him away recently. We are not kids so volume is moderate to hear each other and critique, not cover over mistakes with volume (a common tendency). I do keep an eye on it though and everyone seems fine. I have tinnitus from auditioning a second time with a VERY, VERY loud Blues band without ear protection so I watch volume levels.

Bob.

I see those commercials all the time, lol.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Well ya thanks. You can always say a prayer for me. Hacthing eggs for a living is lot like farming. Farmers have accidents and have terrible years and terrible things happen. Sometimes, due to weather, desease, seasonal changes, fire, floods, natural disasters, etc. At times i feel myself as being a sort of "minature farmer". You know, I work hard. I use just snaller animals and everytging is done on a smaller scale, but the amounts is the same. Instead of a barn I have shelves. Farming doesn't mean you just have to breed herds of cattle. I have to trust the lord for a harvest. To feed my family. This could not have come at a worse time for us.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Trust in the LORD with all of your might, lean not on your own understanding. I put in a good word for you and he said they will be fine, relax.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

God just told me to tell you you should give me an amel brooks for helping out
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I mean smile. I'm sure they will be ok. especially the one you have for me. Female please.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

God just told me to tell you you should give me an amel brooks for helping out

God loves good humor.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Just trying to make you laugh in my own silly way Rainer. I really feel the stress your going thru right now, but I really think they will be ok!
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Just wanted to empathize with bluerosy. My northern friends can’t relate to the veracity of these with damn carrion gnats down here in the humid south even in a clean collection.

Two tips I can share…

The blue granules they sell for farmers for fly control help tremendously in breaking the life cycle and stopping population blooms. The instructions say to toss on ground where livestock can’t reach, feed, or drink. I think the soil moisture is the key.

For our application in a snake room; If you place a pinch of granules on deli cup lid you will see instant fly interest but very few killed, but if you barely moisten them with a spray bottle (not soak) you will attract and kill hundreds of them in minutes. I have 3-5 out all the time and have a routine of swapping them out about weekly with a few rehydrating sprays along the way. One can will last you five years. More granules don’t increase the attraction or death. Just takes a few to emit the correct pheromes to cause the mass gnat horny suicide. I’ve tried every fly tape and light trap I’ve seen with minimal success and am so glad I stumbled across this bait.

Second tip… I now incubate all eggs in soft plastic sandwich style “disposable” containers with tight fitting lids. I don’t soder holes in them. I punch tiny holes with a thumb tack to allow the minimal gas exchange eggs need. The gnats can’t fit through these holes. As I’m sure you’ve seen, the damn flies will eat through good eggs next to bad ones if given the chance.

The blue granules they sell for farmers for fly control help tremendously in breaking the life cycle and stopping population blooms

This sounds like it will work for me. But what are these blue granules called?? i assume they have them in stock at feed supply stores or horse supply stores?

If i can find out the name I will pick some up asap.

Oh and thanks BTW!

Rainer
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

http://www.zoecon.com/goldenmalrin.htm

This is the brand I have now. Their are others too

NP
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer my guess is they should probably be fine since it was just the one night and it wasn't all that cold really.
-----
Randy Whittington

57F is pretty cold. Especially for new eggs that just emerged, no?

I am constantly checking them and the temps. they are up to 67F right now. But some of the eggs have a weird color. The ones sitting on top of the cluches are more yellow ,while the ones that are covered and on the lower end of a pile are white.

You can see i am very worried about this because even if i loose some of the eggs and not all , it could be the ones I needed the most. Since i work with a lot of triple hets , it is a numbers game to get that one or two grail snake that has never been seen before. So many years in the making and failing.

The temp in the room last night before sunset must have been about 70 and it went down quickly from thereafter. I turned on the high powered industrial size fan on high when it was still light outside (around 4pm). It might have gotten cold for 14-15 hours last night. And 72 degrees was cold to start out with.I don't know where my brain was lst night. Probably thinking about something else far away from what i was supposed to be thinking of. Sombody please slap me for being so stupid.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

That is pretty cold but luckily you caught it early this morning and it was just one night. I guess you might lose a few that were the most exposed since you see a color difference. I would really be suprised if many didn't make it other than a few that were on top or the outer edges and not near the incubating medium. I hear what you saying that they could be the ones you want to hatch the most. Best of luck as I've made my own mistakes over the years and feel for you.
-----
Randy Whittington

You might be suprised with the top ones you see a color difference in once they warm back up.
-----
Randy Whittington

Thanks Randy.

I feel so stupid. I don't worry if eggs get down in the mid 60's but 57f , brrrr that's cold.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Last year in early May evening i saw by Bearded Dragons in an outside pen digging her nest in an above ground lay box. Awakening the next morning it was 41 so i immediatly went out dug up the eggs and brought em in and they all hatched. good luck!!

You have said many times here 'these snakes are hard to kill'

I believed it the first time you said it, and I dont think the eggs are much different.

I'm thinking they'll be fine.

Best of luck with them - I know you'll have some amazing animals cutting out soon.

byron.d

They were 57 degrees F.
I think they should be okay, as at depths below four feet, ground temperature stays a constant 50 to 55 degrees Fahrenheit year-round. Snakes laying eggs may not go as deep as four feet underground, but still even at lesser depths the ground does not get as warm as incubators in snake rooms. In fact I have wondered if failed cb clutches might be sometimes due to folks having the eggs too warm.

I have had my fence lizard egg incubator drop from 82F to 69F over night once due to power failure, but all my babies still hatched.

I agree high heat is WAY more damaging than cool temps......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I think they should be okay, as at depths below four feet, ground temperature stays a constant 50 to 55 degrees Fahrenheit year-round.

Depends where you live , I use well water as an example in Fl. it is 72* F year round
But it is quite possible where you live is abit cooler

In the Artic you really need to bury the snake eggs deep below the permafrost, if just to keep the polar bears from diggin'em up....LOL.

In the Artic you really need to bury the snake eggs deep below the permafrost, if just to keep the polar bears from diggin'em up....LOL.
Now that is for sure a novel excuse for your eggs to not make it! Out here in the Sierra foothills a nice place to go on a sweltering summer day is inside an old mine or cave; pleasantly cool.

hey Rainer,I was recently reading up on a mite that eats gnats.It is called hypoapsis miles,available at biconet.com They use them in commercial greenhouses.Also a nice thing about them is they also eat snake mites!They come in a peat mix and you just sprinkle allitle in each cage.They devour the gnats and mites and then just starve away. Just a thought.I think the eggs will hatch anyway.I am seeing the first of the black racers around the house and as you know we were down in the 20s.Good luck

Thanks I will do somereraerh on that and see it it will work in my situation.

The gnats fly from cage to cage. One cage gets cleaned and 500 (plus/minus) gnats fly out. they go into another cage. I have hundreds of snakes. So this is not going to be that easy to solve. My snakes eat and deficate and sometimes ("often" i don't see a mouse or chick that does not get eaten. Then the knats and maggots get in to destroy it. I find it after it starts to smell. It happens fast as it is very humid here in Georgia and i am constantly changing shavings during summer. In the drier parts of the U.S. food items don't deompose anywhere near as fast as the hot and humid south.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Would permethrin .50 percent such as in Provent-a-Mite work on gnats? I have to be extremely careful with permethrin in my snake area, as the crickets are also in the same area and even the least little permethrin will kill the crickets. So I have to take the crickets out of the room for several days when I use permethrin, it is so long lasting. Fortunately haven't had to use any for years, just when I first got my wc Cali king and he was afflicted with mites.

Would permethrin .50 percent such as in Provent-a-Mite work on gnats?

I tried that.

not unless you spray them directly. But even then it does not kill them instantly. It certainly does not work as a deterent.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

i bet they will all be fine, as for the flys have ya tried what i told ya? its very effective... apple cider vinegar in a small bowl with a few drops of common liqid dish detergant,
it shuts them down.

57! lucky!!! its in the 90s here already.

,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

57! lucky!!! its in the 90s here already.

Actually it is hot here to. We had an unexpecte cold snap and that is what caught me off guard.

anyway, the eggs look fine so far. It is a lot of eggs to lose all of them at once. I can handle losing eggs and snakes. Just not getting all wiped out at once.

I am getting the pellets but I will try the apple cider and dishsoap. I have not tried that yet. i will pick up some up today and let you know how it works.

I assume you just a cup or two of the stuff out and the flies flock to it?
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

>>> I will try the apple cider and dishsoap. I have not tried that yet. i will pick up some up today and let you know how it works.

yes but its apple cider VINEGAR and dish soap they will flock to small bowls of this mixture effectively wiping them out and is MUCH safer than poison.

,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com