Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is Guzmano peacefully digesting his second meal since coming to live with me, three big hoppers. I hand fed him; he has quite the vigorous strike response and likes to eat! I think I will obtain a set of tongs for next feeding, though. He is easy to pick up and transfer to the feeding container and back, and does not try to musk me.

This is his terra cotta saucer hide; I lifted it off to show him. He also has a moist sphagnum moss hide. All this is then covered by a cardboard soda flat. His home is a 105 quart Sterilite tub with a screen top. His saucer is directly over the little 4 watt UTH, very cozy indeed.

For those who don't know his story, I got him last week from an ad in Fauna. He was supposedly an incorrigible musker and kind of hard to sell in the pet store the seller has, as he does get uncomfortable with prolonged handling or any sort of restraint. He appears to be a mix of Thayeri and Heinz 57! LOL! He is a great snake and I am really glad I took a chance on what seemed on the face of it to be a too good to be true deal.

mixed with some sort of milk?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Jlassiter said: Looks like some Triangulum in it.....Pueblan or Hondo.....

Ruthven was also mentioned, neither milk or Mexicana.

I am thinking Guzmano may have some milk just because milk snakes are supposed to be more flighty and not so easy to handle as kings. At least that is what I have read. Guzmano is a calm fellow as long as his nature is respected.

>>Jlassiter said: Looks like some Triangulum in it.....Pueblan or Hondo.....
>>
>>Ruthven was also mentioned, neither milk or Mexicana.

The more I look at it I am leaning toward Hondo.....Many Hondos get that "spot" and the banding is more Milksnakish than a Milk Snake Phase thayeri.....Or Ruthveni.....
I have had a few and have seen many Ruthveni X Thayeri and all of them have a 'different' look to them......

Have you ever seen a Ruthveni X Mex Mex crossed?
It produces a very Thayeri-like offspring.....Interesting, eh?

Guzmano is still an awesome looking snake.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I don't care what is in it. That is a beautiful snake.

good deal!
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>I don't care what is in it. That is a beautiful snake.
>>
>>good deal!

I agree...Just so long as he knows what he has and doesn't pop out an amel offspring or some other morph not seen in Thayeri.....yet......Then pass it off as pure.....

This is the ONLY reason I cannot own any hybrids. If I get a new morph from a pure thayeri pairing I would have a hard time convincing everyone because I have hybrids in my snake room too.......Then I would begin to doubt the bloodlines / history on the pair that produced them......

Why haven't we seen an amel thayeri in the hobby yet?
We are working with a few wild caught bloodlines and have not introduced any new blood lines except for a few confiscated at the border animals a few years back.....We've been line breeding them for generations (decades).....

I know I'm going to hear it so here it goes....
In 1993 an amel thayeri was produced in Austin, Texas. It later was killed by it's "het" sibling in a breeding attempt.
I don't believe it was a pure thayeri....
Coincidentally the first amel tricolor hatched out in 1987....A Ruthveni. From 1987 to 1993 is just enough time to produce Het hybrids in 1990 and then an amel in 1993.......Soon after that the amel Sinoloan and Nelson miraculously came into being....Another coincidence????

No one will ever know.....
Being honest is the only way to avoid being bashed for owning a hybrid.......And not all folks are honest......

Enough ranting....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

If I find a suitable mate for Guzmano and actually get some offspring I will bill them as Heinz 57 Lampropeltis. That should cover all the guesses as to what he is! LOL! He does look sort of Honduran. He is very sturdy and at the rate he likes to eat I think he will be on the larger end of the size spectrum at maturity.

>>If I find a suitable mate for Guzmano and actually get some offspring I will bill them as Heinz 57 Lampropeltis. That should cover all the guesses as to what he is! LOL! He does look sort of Honduran. He is very sturdy and at the rate he likes to eat I think he will be on the larger end of the size spectrum at maturity.

I know you will do the right thing GBOF......
I was actually glad you know it is a cross...
Some of the hybrid problems result in folks not knowing they have a cross, they produce offspring and try to pass them off as pure.....believing they are......Muddy waters everywhere....LOL

Again.....It is a gorgeous snake.....If I weren't so deep into Mexicana bloodlines and purity I would be glad to own Guzmano......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

No! A snake was killed by it's mate?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>No! A snake was killed by it's mate?

Yep....
I guess the breeder didn't read all the posts......LOL
No choices....
No bonding....
Nothing.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

This is the ONLY reason I cannot own any hybrids. If I get a new morph from a pure thayeri pairing I would have a hard time convincing everyone because I have hybrids in my snake room too.......Then I would begin to doubt the bloodlines / history on the pair that produced them......

Ya, I agree enough ranting John.

Thing is that a lot of breeders have hybrids, pure, locality specific etc. They have no problems selling the offspring (accuratly priced) according to what they are.

Any smaller breeder who specializes in a particular species is well aware of the morphs of that species and "look alike" hybrids in the market. You can have both and that will provide people with the proper eduction and pictures to validate what is and is not pure. You just proved that in this thread. Why should anyone belive you if you say this is a hybrid? Same way, they beleive you when you say it isn't. It is all about knowledge tracing certian lines. That is what a lot of folks buy into your snakes for.

I think your fears are misleading.

PS
I hate to use that word "pure" cause it is a misnomer in itself.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Sorry I meant to quote this in my above post.

"This is the ONLY reason I cannot own any hybrids. If I get a new morph from a pure thayeri pairing I would have a hard time convincing everyone because I have hybrids in my snake room too.......Then I would begin to doubt the bloodlines / history on the pair that produced them...... "

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www.Bluerosy.com

>>Any smaller breeder who specializes in a particular species is well aware of the morphs of that species and "look alike" hybrids in the market. You can have both and that will provide people with the proper eduction and pictures to validate what is and is not pure. You just proved that in this thread. Why should anyone belive you if you say this is a hybrid? Same way, they beleive you when you say it isn't. It is all about knowledge tracing certian lines. That is what a lot of folks buy into your snakes for.
>>
>>I think your fears are misleading.
>>
>>PS
>>I hate to use that word "pure" cause it is a misnomer in itself.

Not in the Mexicana world......Nor the Alterna world......It's a different playing field....Zonata too.....

The Pyro market is getting ready to explode with never seen before morphs......Purity will be doubted down the line for sure......

And I agree on the "pure" statement you made...it is a misnomer for captive snakes so far from the wild.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Well I used to breed mexicana-alterna-zonata. Once you do that it is easy to tell the difference bewteen a hybrid and a pure specimen.

I guess the only way for you to find out is start breeding the mixes and you will see what i mean.

It's fun!

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www.Bluerosy.com

>>Well I used to breed mexicana-alterna-zonata. Once you do that it is easy to tell the difference bewteen a hybrid and a pure specimen.
>>
>>I guess the only way for you to find out is start breeding the mixes and you will see what i mean.

Rainer....
Did you know the lineages of your Mexicana, Alterna or Zonata?
Were they F2 Valle de los Fantasmas L.m.mexicana bred to a Wild Caught HWY 277 Alterna then you bred those offspring to an F1 Martir Zonata?

Just kidding man....LOL

The point is this.....I was out of the hobby for 3 plus years....In my hiatus the "trace your lineage" stuff got big with Mexicana due to the fact that there were many hybrids out there being sold as uncrossed subspecies ("pure".....
Now it is part of the game, if you will.....There is a close circle of Mexicana breeders that will only buy within themselves (ourselves).......Those in the circle will not purchase Mexicana from anyone that cannot trace lineage back to a reputable breeder that did not cross subspecies (Applegate, Vermilya, Gebhart, etc.)........

Again.....It all boils down to trusting the breeder you buy from.....honesty......dishonesty muddies the waters.....

And it is pretty easy for me to tell a 1st or 2nd generation hybrid Mexicana, Alterna or Ruthveni. I've seen thousands in person and millions of photos....both pure and hybrids.... I even owned a few when I started purchasing my initial thayeri breeding stock.......I was a newbie and didn't know any better......The eye learns characteristics over the years.......Plus there is an age old art that is lost....Scale counts, pattern variations/markers, head shape, eye shape, etc........

I always said and I will say it again....if I ever get into hybrids I would DEFINITELY use Thayeri in the mix just for the not knowing what your gonna get factor........And I believe you that it is fun.......
Here's a couple HET FOR ALBINO ALTERNA....

How about a pair of LIGHT PHASE GREERI....


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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Those are nice mexicana and greeri John!

Also thanks for the tip the other night over the phone. I am going to give that a try.

See it does not hurt to try new things!

...Unless, you can't get out of this...

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www.Bluerosy.com

>>I agree...Just so long as he knows what he has and doesn't pop out an amel offspring or some other morph not seen in Thayeri.....yet......Then pass it off as pure.....

what??????? Pass it off as pure? That's pure BS John, you can't do that, you either know what it is and where it came from or you don't.

>>I know I'm going to hear it so here it goes....
>>In 1993 an amel thayeri was produced in Austin, Texas. It later was killed by it's "het" sibling in a breeding attempt.
>>I don't believe it was a pure thayeri....

You should talk [bleep] about stuff you don't know anything about. Did you know Bas? Did you know his snakes? I did. Jeff Barringer did. So unless you can back this up with some facts you need to STFU.

BTW, those gray and black things you got from Larry come from a KNOWN hybrid breeder, and are HYBRIDS.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

you can read right? read the last paragraph of this paper in 1991.
www.sierraherps.com/pdf/Young_and_Babcock_1991.pdf

All albinos still in Heuring's possession and zero offspring produced at time of writing. Now might be a good time to revise your theory.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe,
I don't think John meant to say that albono Quaretaro was a hybrid. But that is was crossed into other tricolors to create albonos and passed off as pure. Everyone knows the first tricolor in the hobby was a rutheni.

John was just comparing the timeline when the first rutheni amels came out and how many years passed before other amel tricolors started popping out all over the place.
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www.Bluerosy.com

This issue of purity would only be solved for good with genetic testing of every snake's DNA. Obviously unless one is a forensic scientist this would be impractical.

Many years ago I had a pure bred Samoyed dog. He mated with a pure bred collie and the pups came out looking like collies but collies on steroids; really superb animals. They were not pure but none the less were great dogs. I think maybe Guzmano will produce some superb babies, too. Like I said, Heinz 57! LOL! All's I have now in females are pyros, need a mexicana mate for him.
Although:

to this:

but not this, am saving her for pure pyro:

>>Joe,
>>I don't think John meant to say that albono Quaretaro was a hybrid. But that is was crossed into other tricolors to create albonos and passed off as pure. Everyone knows the first tricolor in the hobby was a rutheni.
>>
>>John was just comparing the timeline when the first rutheni amels came out and how many years passed before other amel tricolors started popping out all over the place.
>>-----
>>www.Bluerosy.com

It's alright Rainer....Joe just read what he wanted to read from my posts and made a perfectly knee jerked reaction to my opinion.....
The paper he cited mentioned that Terry produced albinos for three years......and that they were in his possession in the year of 1991.....I guess the amel thayeri might have been the real deal, but my statements gave Joe a conniption.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

"John was just comparing the timeline when the first rutheni amels came out and how many years passed before other amel tricolors started popping out all over the place."

It's kinda like after Area 51 crash, we get Television and all technology grows exponentially. Just a theory right?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>you can read right? read the last paragraph of this paper in 1991.
>>www.sierraherps.com/pdf/Young_and_Babcock_1991.pdf
>>
>>All albinos still in Heuring's possession and zero offspring produced at time of writing. Now might be a good time to revise your theory.

I'm sure glad you can read and have determined that my statement was a theory.......Good on ya.....

I find it interesting that he bred them at 18 months and no true brumation period......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I was good friends with Bill Garska and went to mexico with him prior to him writing his paper. The one mentioned by Joe Forks.

I was also in contact with him, and Ernie Wagner, when the albino founder stock was collected.

The Story, The first questionable animal was published as an intermediate between a Mexicana and milksnake. IT was published by one of Merafkas students(I believe) He was in the Cal state system of colleges, Cal state something hills or whatever. The student was studying Scelops in that area.

The LOCAL Had a small rock outcrop on top a grassy hill south of Amelco(sp). They unfortunately tore the rock outcrop apart and found three animals.

A friend and I(dead Ted) visited that site with directions from Bill Garska/Ernie Wagner. Including where to find the BEST CARNITAS, in mexico. We were disappointed that the area was destroyed. A very small area of habitat. So we looked in other areas that appeared suitable, on the way to that site. I had already found tricolor sheds in some of these other areas. We found 27 more animals, in about six hours of field work. We then returned to the original site and found three more there. I had a permit for six per species of the mexicana complex(Via, Carlos Negal, ASDM mexico unit) Unfortunately, we did not take any from that hillside where the founder stock for of the albinos came from.(kick myself in the bum) hahahahahahahahahahaha

What was very odd, we found a wide varity of ruthveni, from tricolored individuals, to Very Greeri patterned and colored animals. We also found very large animals. I do not know that Bill was going to discribe them on the basis of three small individuals. So we do not bring back Greeri(wide lite grey, narrow red bands, reduced head pattern) types as they were already known and represented in captivity. Cheers

Great input Frank.....
Sounds like exciting times....
Back before the internet, back before folks that new it all, back when you could actually go to the field and find a snake in Mexico and bring it back with locality data.......Leaves all the guesswork out......

All we have now a days are stories like that......and that is too bad.....

All we have now is someone's word....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Used to be a man's word was like GOLD, but not anymore.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Is the link still good? I can't get it to open, but it could be my computer.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Is the link still good? I can't get it to open, but it could be my computer.

The link worked for me......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Thanks I'll try on my other computer. I hate this "vista".
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>>>I agree...Just so long as he knows what he has and doesn't pop out an amel offspring or some other morph not seen in Thayeri.....yet......Then pass it off as pure.....
>>
>>what??????? Pass it off as pure? That's pure BS John, you can't do that, you either know what it is and where it came from or you don't.

READ AGAIN Joe.....I stated that I hope this person doesn't pop out an albino and try to sell it as a pure albino thayeri.....
What are you talking about?????
We are actually stating the same thing Joe!!

>>>>I know I'm going to hear it so here it goes....
>>>>In 1993 an amel thayeri was produced in Austin, Texas. It later was killed by it's "het" sibling in a breeding attempt.
>>>>I don't believe it was a pure thayeri....
>>
>>
>>You should talk [bleep] about stuff you don't know anything about. Did you know Bas? Did you know his snakes? I did. Jeff Barringer did. So unless you can back this up with some facts you need to STFU.

Excuse the [Bleep] out of me Joe.....I didn't know you had such strong feelings about this.....It is just my OPINION about the timeline from the first PURE amel Ruthveni then then the first amel thayeri.......I stated "I don't believe it was pure".....You can tell me it is and say folks know Bas but that is the only proof we have.....Okay I believe ya.....

>>BTW, those gray and black things you got from Larry come from a KNOWN hybrid breeder, and are HYBRIDS.

And if you know anything about me Joe....You should STFU!!!!.....I am keeping those just to breed them to each other this year to see what pops out of them...Ask Michelle as I know where they come from and I am moving them out after this breeding season.....We just want to see what they produce......

In the mean time quit acting as you are holier than thou.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I think its fair to say the most "pure" (for lack of a better word)albinos are the first produced. The first Albino Nelsoni looked like nothing else. Pro Breeders was and still is a known hybridizer in the Mexicana/pyro complex. And the #1 arguement about "purity" is usually based on one word...GREED. It has nothing to do with what X animal looks like, if it can be "proved pure" it will appeal to more people thus increasing the price. Yet by definition all albinos are inbred....which IMHO contradicts the idea of "purity" to begin with.

My opinion on albino pyros is the same as for decaffeinated coffee; why bother! The whole point of pyros is the bright red, white and black, so what is the point of creating a bleached out version?

LOL. I Happen to feel the same way though. It's not like I never owned any Amels. I just think the normal rich colors, especially on a Pyro are MUCH more pleasing to my eye. Bleached out is the way I think of it too. Like HD lcd television compared to an old tube black and white. To each his own though. I certainly can appreciate the novelty. I'm just not feeling like spending 3X the price for an animal that doesn't come with all the colors! LOL

I don't understand all the Ball Python Morphs either. The White Leucistics are eye catching as well as albinos but MANY of the other morphs look so much like one another I don't get it. But again, to each his own. Everybodys trying to keep it interesting for themselves I guess.

That's how I felt about the lucy Alterna. I realize the value is because it is rare and no one else has it but it is like taking a work of art and dunking it in Bleach. Just my opinion
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>...by definition all albinos are inbred....which IMHO contradicts the idea of "purity" to begin with.

Color me confused. Aren't locality animals "inbred" to a degree? Not in captivity, but in the wild: these aren't animals that range dozens of miles searching for mates. If you catch two splendida, let's say for example, in the middle of splendida range, and linebreed them--breed them together, and then the offspring to their parents, etc., does that make them less pure? If so, explain please.
td

I was trying to figure that out too. So if I take pure GOLD and melt it into pure GOLD then it is no longer pure? I understand that you may get some adverse genes due to inbreeding but how is it not pure? It may not be a perfect representative of the animal that is in the field because people select for certain traits but does that make it less pure? That's like if my neighbors the smiths started marrying only family members. Eventually the would be really messed up but I would say, "yeah, that's the Smiths"! You can't deny the resemblance to their Dad.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I'm afraid. Please no more examples from you. BAD. BAD. BAD.

The names were changed to protect the innocent, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>>>...by definition all albinos are inbred....which IMHO contradicts the idea of "purity" to begin with.
>>
">>Color me confused."

Jeff seems to be using the term "pure" to mean "pure and a complete representation of the population, a model of the whole genepool in that location". A great concept and goal for collection management but very confusing when communicating to the rest of us.

Below - pure South Florida County kings (by my definition)

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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

"Yet by definition all albinos are inbred....which IMHO contradicts the idea of "purity" to begin with."

So wouldn't the same be true for your "Monster Island" milk snakes?

Tim

To a degree. Inbreeding on purpose is morph breeding by definition. Locality breeding on purpose limits genetic drift for sure, but is NOT inbreeding on purpose. Any locality has to have at least say 50 individuals, so morph breeding has to be at least 25x "worse"/"more inbred" than locality. Right?? And you can say locality breeding is at least 100x "more inbred" than non locality breeding right?? You can argue exact numbers but its orders of magnitude.

"Any locality has to have at least say 50 individuals, so morph breeding has to be at least 25x "worse"/"more inbred" than locality. Right??"

Not really. I can take a Morph and beed it to 1,000 animals from absolutely different blood lines,(let's say). Then make ten's of thousands of hets for that morph, but Locality must be from that locality. It makes sense in my head anyway?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>I don't care what is in it. That is a beautiful snake.
>>good deal!

I don't care that she has herpes virus. That is a beautiful woman.
good deal!

Hybrids do pose a threat to those who care about "pure" animals:

--few buyers have the expertise claimed by a handful here to be able to identify even difficult mixes at a glance;

--some young in a clutch of hybrids look a great deal like one of the parent species, and after a second gen bred back to that species, some young in the next clutch of hybrids will look almost identical to that species (it can't be denied: the whole point of some of the hybrid experiments, after all, was to produce, after several generations, at least a handful of young--amels, for example--that might generally be accepted as "the real thing"

--few buyers have the resources claimed by a handful here, to be able to vet the authenticity of an animal ("we" might know the top five breeders of x or y, but how many others do you think do? almost none)

so the mixing of species might elevate the collections and wisdom of a few elite breeders, but if what we're talking about is the welfare of herpetoculture generally, it can only do harm. IMHO.

And yes, many of the hybrids are among the prettiest snakes i've seen.

--

here's frank (FR) in a post that's now on page two of this forum. Itals mine:

"Try this, breed a pure corn to a pure Yellow rat. Then breed the babies back to the pure adults. Look at those offspring and see if you can find wild animals that look like them.

You see, After back breeding, all you get is a little odd, now something that looks exactly halfway between the two.

Even with captive crosses, like a corn to a yellow rat. You only get a few in the clutch that look halfway, most look more like one adult or the other.

There is a point here, most herpers are or were VERY naive as to what a hybrid looks like. So they do not know what to look for. Nothing against them, but they have no experience or education to actually know what a hybrid is.

I think with natural hybrids the one spp is absorbed into one or the other. The ratsnake x corn is a bad example as i think all those cornsnakes have been intermingling for thousands of years with other ratsnakes.A cornsnake is a ratsnake after all..

With truer "unatural" CAPTIVE hybrids the oppossite is true. Unatural hybrids are snakes come from two different geographical areas (EX hONDURAN MILK X FLORIDA KING). When breeding the first gen the babies always come out looking like dogs and have a hlfway look between the two spp. But when bred back to one another is when you get the real wild stuff-the stripes, solid colors, pots etc. I found this to be true with many different unatural hybrids.

So comparing wild hybrids to captive hybrids is a whole nother story. The 2x cross wild types don't find each other and reproduce. . A good example would be the pacific gopher x Calif king we saw pictures posted of. That wildcaught snake will probably never find another gopher x king to breed to. It will either breed to a Cal king or a gopher in the wild. So the second generation crazy abberancies never really take place in nature like they do in captive breeding.
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www.Bluerosy.com