Reptile & Amphibian Forums

MILWAUKEE - The man who allegedly kept 250 reptiles in different locations on Milwaukee's south side turned himself in to Milwaukee Police and is expected to make a courtroom appearance on Thursday.

Terry Cullen was arrested Wednesday morning.

The Milwaukee County District Attorney's office says it will make a decision on sexual assault and kidnapping charges against him by Thursday morning.

Cullen's secret stash of exotic creatures was exposed during the original investigation for sexual assault.

Friends and colleagues knew he kept alligators, crocodiles, snakes and spiders, but they just never knew how many.

"Without immediate intervention, these animals will be extinct," said Cullen in a YouTube video.

Police found more than 200 animals investigating a sexual assault, and they have now openly said that Cullen was the target of that inquest.

Cullen turned himself into police for arrest and questioning Wednesday morning. He was released later in the day.

The sexual assault arrest is the latest twist in a disturbing animal story that neighbors still can't get their head around.

"It kind of changes the look of the neighborhood when something like that happens here, you know," said one neighbor.

Cullen is expected to appear for a brief initial appearance. The court commissioner will likely set bail and Cullen will likely be taken into custody until he can post that bail.
www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95003094.html

Watch the "Neighbors' Reactions" video. Listen carefully to the reporter's interview questions as she leads those she questions with the preferred responses.
How sad.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

That he was apparently unable to comply with some basic Milwaukee statutes:

Sec. 6-2. Definitions.
The following words, terms and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this section, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:
Domestic animal means a dog or cat.
Holding facility means an approved, temporary animal holding facility used for the purpose of returning animals to their owner, or impoundment at the municipal pound and maintained by the city.
Injured animal means an animal, domestic, wild or other, that is suffering from some sort of injury.
Municipal pound means the veterinarian, clinic, or facility under contract with the city to act as a municipal pound.
Rabid animal means an animal, domestic, wild or other, that has demonstrated symptoms of rabies or is suspected of being rabid.
Sick animal means an animal, domestic, wild or other, that has demonstrated characteristics of being sick, other than rabid.
Vicious animals means any animal, reptile, and/or fish that constitutes a physical threat to human beings or other animals.
Wild or exotic animal means any nondomestic animal, whether born or raised in captivity, or other warm-blooded animal which can normally be found in the wild state.
(Code 1968, § 21.03)
Cross references: Definitions generally, § 1-2.

Sec. 6-93. Animal excreta; responsibility.
Any person owning or having control of a dog, a cat or other animal on any property, public or private, which is not owned or occupied by such person shall promptly remove excrement left by such dog, cat or other animal and place it in a proper receptacle, bury it or flush it in a toilet on property owned or occupied by such person. Any person causing or permitting a dog, a cat or other animal to be on property, public or private, not owned or occupied by such person shall have in his immediate possession a device or object suitable for removal of excrement and a depository for the transmission of excrement to the property owned or occupied by such person.
(Code 1968, § 21.06(3))

Sec. 6-172. Wild or vicious animals as pets.
(a) No person shall keep or permit to be kept any dangerous, wild or vicious animal as a pet or otherwise.
(b) Guard dogs, ferrets, nonpoisonous snakes, nonconstricting snakes, rabbits and laboratory rats which have been bred in captivity and which have never known the wild shall be excluded from this section.
(Code 1968, § 21.09(1))

In spite of whether or not he is guilty of the sexual battery charges against him from what I understand he has had this facility for many years and what he was doing was perfectly legal when he started his facility.
It is always interesting how more and more often in this so called free country we seem to wake up one day to find that things we do that violate nobody else's rights to their lives liberty or property through force or fraud are now a crime.
What is even sadder is how people like you seem to be some sort of a cheerleader for this type of government. Quite honestly I feel sorry for you. You are a fool and you do not realize what you are losing and mark my words miss box turtle queen, you will wake up one day and also be a criminal for doing absolutely nothing different than you did the day before. Box turtles are a favorite target of those who want to slowly do away with our right to own private property.

To Calparsoni - Very well put and on point.

To StephF - You should try to listen and learn a few things instead of always asserting your opinion.
Especially since your opinion is so far off base and not oriented with the facts and variables that apply to reality or the situations being discussed most of the time .
In the end the AR agenda wants to outlaw box turtle keeping across the board. If they can't get your State to do it they already have a plan for that. They are trying to put box turtles on a Federal list so they can bypass the State. They do not want to make any allowances for you to get grandfathered in for keeping or breeding them.
So keep on picking on people with your opinions, but in time what goes around comes around. No matter how smart you think you are or how good you think you are at finding a solution, when they screw you, you will have no choice and maybe then you will get that it is not always about the choices we make.
We are the ones trying to do something about this. We are the ones actually slowing them down and protecting your rights to keep your turtles. But all you can do is sit there smug and take pop shots at us like a gnat that doesn't know when to quite.
You are not the solution here but part of the problem. A problem by the way that in time will bite you on your own a**.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

...instead of trying to thread jack.

Mr. Cullen apparently was unable to provide his rare endangered animals with some basic hygiene, unable to keep abreast of current local law, and unable to follow some basic licensing criteria which he should have been well aware of, given his special relationship with the local Humane Society. He should have known better: now things have come back and bitten him in the butt.

If this is how experienced respected herp keepers handle their affairs, the god help us all.

That someone like me may eventually be penalized because of this kind of crap is very irritating to me. That members of the herp community jump to his defense and scream AR conspiracy instead of trying to objectively evaluate the facts does not bode well for the hobby.

StephF - You said -

That someone like me may eventually be penalized because of this kind of crap is very irritating to me. That members of the herp community jump to his defense and scream AR conspiracy instead of trying to objectively evaluate the facts does not bode well for the hobby.

The problem with your thinking here is that they do not have to punish you or anyone else for what someone else does. It is only because the AR groups want to stop people from keeping any kind of pet that this crap is happening like it is.
If someone does not keep there animals in good conditions then so be it. But since when do we have to let the government or any law enforcement agency use the excuse that since someone else did something wrong you get punished too?
You talk so much about taking responsibility, well where is the responsibility of the government and law enforcement here?
If this guy that was accused of neglecting his animals really did do this then he should be punished and not you. Also if he kidnapped and sexually assaulted someone he should be punished for this too but not you. The problem is we don't know if it is true or not yet.
They are not going to come after you for sexual assault because of him are they? No of course not !
So why do they need to try to take peoples right to keep there animals away because of him or anyone else?
But they have you convinced that because someone else did not take responsibility they have to punish you and it is not there fault but the fault of the person that was not responsible. As if this makes it right for them to do this.

Dumb down society and trick them out of there rights. Some fall for it and some don't.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

"I've raised many, many hatchlings and never had one expire due to..."

What I would like to know is what have you done with all those box turtles you have raised and where did you get them?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

They were the off-spring of legally collected/rescued adults that I removed many years ago from an area construction site (now a shopping center): the young ones were disbursed to several different reintroduction/repatriation studies and behavioral studies and are still being monitored.

How about your snakes? Have you contributed directly to any conservation efforts? Do you have any sort of conservation oriented breeding program going on for the purpose of maintaining a robust gene pool for the species in your care?

wow steph what a conservationist working with such a criticaly endangered animal. I hope you at least keep them seperated by locals. I keep some bass and yellowbelly cooters in my pond just in case they go extinct also.
Rob

Wow Rob, given that the turtles I deal with are protected to some degree or another in pretty much every state in which they are native, there is certainly nothing wrong with getting a head start on evaluating potential conservation tools so that a crisis point might not ever be reached.

You've heard the expression "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure", right?

Do you have permits etc for whatever it is you claim to be doing?.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

At least you tried to have a point!!!

Wow Rob, given that the ___________ I deal with are protected to some degree or another in pretty much every state in which they are native,

I left the spot blank for anyone to put every type of animal in the US and it still applies.

Almost every animal is protected to "some degree or another"

BTW I think it is great you want to work with them but get off your pedistal you are not that special and you are never to smart to learn and honestly you seem more interested arguing than learning here. Instesd of blowing off one aspect of someones point you argue that point like it is the most important part or you disagree just to dissagree and make yourself heard.

BTW do you keep them separated by locals or just keep them all together because the are all the same sub sp.?
Rob

Steph, I used to be a member of the IUCN CROCODILE SPECIALIST GROUP and supported it financially in a big way. This was in the 80's and 90's. Additionally I have written several scientific papers and have been involved in all types of conservation projects from reforestation in Haiti to captive breeding all sorts of endangered species. Again Steph you are but a babe in the woods. Why do you challenge folks that are way above you that you should learn from and not attack? HAVE YOU BEEN TAKING YOUR MEDICINE LATELY? How does it feel to be a pariah?...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Way above me? In what way? Because you think you have more experience? You openly bash certain scientists and the papers they've written and yet you want me to think that, because you've co-written some papers, you are somehow special as a result. So which is it: bad scientific community that you want no part of when you disagree with it, or good scientific community that you really, really wish you were part of when you do agree with it?

BTW I'm hardly a pariah... Look at how your passion is viewed by most of the public and then think about who the pariah is.

I'm guessing that you've actively cultivated that 'outsider' image your entire life, just for the attention it draws....

Paging Dr. Freud...

You do try and tell Yngwie Malmsteen how to play guitar don't you?

"the young ones were disbursed to several different reintroduction/repatriation studies and behavioral studies and are still being monitored."

Please tell me more...what studies, organizations, institutions, protocols, papers, citations, etc?

I am truly interested.

jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

they were thrown into the woods out of ar black helicopters.

Personally among other projects I won't mention I have maintained several pairs of Phelsuma standingi which have some level of IUCN listing of which I am not sure but also are restricted from export through cites and have been since 1995. I have kept and bred them paying careful attention to bloodlines since 1994. At one point in the Orlando area if you found standings geckos in a pet store chances are really good they came from me. My breeding has slowed down a bit over the last few years but they are still available in the area because now others in the area have picked up my slack which is great because the more people who breed them the better. You can't save lizards by keeping them on a burning island (Madagascar). What I do is all well and good but it is nothing compared to someone else you keep arguing with on here who is responsible for the captive populations we have of several species of insular epicrates boas as well as some species of Cyclura Iguanas many of which are critically endangered. There are countless other species this person has worked with as well.
There are others on here as well who work with other species as well. I have seen a few people mention Tomistoma shegelii which is another species that is critically endangered as well.
It is great that you work with box turtles but you are not the only one out there who is conservation minded. So stop trying to beat people up from your high horse it reminds me of baptists.

Really...expecting someone to accept responsibility for their own actions/inactions? LOL.

I'll bet your boss doesn't allow you to take coffee breaks because he is afraid you might need to be retrained afterwards.

How predictable of you, that you would assume that I have a boss.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A BOSS YOU NEED ONE STEPH...THANKS
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You're right, my bad, people like you are usually the first on the unemployment line. I know in my line of work the know-it-alls are in line to go after the drug addicts and the drunks.

before you criticize others Steph. I've stated that he has had that facility since the 1970's. In those days there were NO LAWS concerning keeping herps. Why do you continue to argue with folks that are clearly EONS ahead of you in terms on knowledge and experience? At your point in life you should be trying to learn NOT trying to give YOUR PERSONAL BIASED OPINIONS that have NO factual base. It's clear you have no idea what's at stake here with all the attacks on our personal freedoms. I'm guessing it's because you grew up in a different time so you had already lost a lot of yours or you are some weird socialist that actually believe you need someone to dictate your likes and dislikes. Personally I believe in FREEDOM FOR ALL UNLESS YOU'RE HURTING OTHERS WHICH HIM KEEPING HIS HERPS did not infringe upon anyones freedom...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Pay special attention to my use of the word 'apparently'. I don't really have an opinion about this guy, but, if he can't keep up with some basic animal husbandry (you know, cleaning up excrement)and otherwise stay current with the statutes, then he needs to accept responsibility, IMHO.

As to the rest of your post, well, likewise reverse verbatim. LOL

You have some preconceived notions about me that are false: so much for opinions based in fact. Cheers.

Steph
I guess you are going to trust the info that is being told to you about the conditions are fact. I think many of the 250 animals were were feeder rats and mice but it is good to use them to "pad" the numbers for the general public. A few months back there was an article on a forum about a bust and authorities found a freezer with 60 dead animals in it but only one report said it was frozen rodents used for food. 60 dead animals in the freezer sells more papers. Non animal people or people who only see animals on exibit as in zoos or pet shops believe the animals are always kept in sterile "ideal" conditions at all time. If they see some poop in an enclosure or a shad or some mulch in a water bowl they say oh look at that filth. Most people with large collections have routines and don't solve every minor problem daily and if you have a garage or facility if you clean tubs daily there be some saw dust that does not get cleaned up right after it spills maby once a week he sweeps his faclity and does a thuro cleaning and it was not for 2 more days.
also keeping animals in consistant ideal condition is not natural for them often times animals need to be stressed like they would be in nature to induce them to bread like reducing temp, not watering, reducing food so when conditions get better they think spring time time to bread.
A friend had a fish and game come by for his Roc spot check and it was a trainee and wroth him up for wet substrait in a cage some poop in a cage and no water in his cages even tho he was wash the water bowls out and drying them when she showed up, these were all 10 to 18' pythons and not haveing water for a few hours or a few weeks for that matter is not going top effect them in the least. She knew nothing about reptiles and only had her little book of things to look for. Another was a pet store with Gerboas and FWC said I'm going to write you up for not haveing water with them and the owner argued with them they do not drink water and if you give them water they will die it did not matter there book says animals need water and that is the law. I did not mean to go on this long but I think most people with large collections get spot checked by inexperienced people or people with an agenda or an axe to grind can always find several things to cause troubble about.
Rob

The articles I read differentiated the feeder animals from the herps. No worries there mate.

Wow that is what you took away from that post. I can see you have a need to feel important. If you want people to take you seriously you need to stop trying to find the one thing you feel you can make a slight point about and make it seem like that was the jist of the message. I never said what you read and you never said it either but the tread says 250 and that is what I was commenting about.
BTW I think you are trying to get attention and stir things up by your quips and atempts at smart comments.

"Alas, not conclusive"
"How predictable of you"
"likewise reverse verbatim. LOL"
"No worries there mate"
"Methinks you have too much time on your hands"

Rob

"The articles I read differentiated the feeder animals from the herps. No worries there mate."

I'm guessing you were referring to this statement with your reply above.

"Another was a pet store with Gerboas and FWC said I'm going to write you up for not haveing water with them and the owner argued with them they do not drink water and if you give them water they will die it did not matter there book says animals need water and that is the law."

I'm pretty sure Gerboas/Jerboas are not feeder animals, if that's what you are saying.

Keep on typing and keep on showing your true subject knowledge. You are not credible, not relevant, simply an annoying inconvenience.

Entertaining distraction, but this isn't the comedy forum.

By the way, how would you like it if I got on the box turtle forum and challenged every one of your opinions and belittled your input? It would not be all that difficult to discredit and impeach your self-appointed authority there.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John I think the comment was about the 250 animals removed from TC and some articles say several dozen feeder rodents but most just say 250 animals and if they are counting feeders that is dishonest if they came to many breeders houses are they going to say they had 800 animals bacause they had a rodent colony and they count pinkys. Also I was refering to the bust in LA and they said there were 60 or so dead animals in the freezer which sounds bad to the public but they were feeder rodents it is again dishonest reporting. Immagine if they went through the average persons home freezer and said they had 20 dead animals in there freezer and neglected to say they were frozen chickens, steaks, pork chops, and some fish fillets from the local grocery store. Dead animals in the freezer gets headlines. Steph just tries to find something to comment on.
Rob

You know I worked with a guy once who used to work maintennence at Sea world. According to him they have quite a collection of stuff in their freezer which I am sure is for research purposes.
Up until the hurricanes of 2004 I had an extensive collection of various things that had passed on over the years in my freezer. I did so in the event that if it turned out to be something that could be of scientific value to someone down the line I had it on hand.
I never realized that it was a crime to keep frozen animals in your freezer nor did I realize that in the event of it not necessarily being a crime that you were guilty until proven innocent for having dead animals in your freezer.
I guess it's a good thing I'm getting my hamburgers at Wendy's or Burger King tonight. God forbid I have any in my freezer.

"By the way, how would you like it if I got on the box turtle forum and challenged every one of your opinions and belittled your input? It would not be all that difficult to discredit and impeach your self-appointed authority there."

...that's not such a bad idea...
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www.voodoomagicboas.com

Its funny a month ago I moved 3 ball pythons from there rubermaid tubs into 3 exoterra 18"tanks with decorations backgrounds waterbowls heat and everything thinking wow these ones will really be happy now!!! So far they have yet to eat and I'm thinking of moving them back. It just shows you that our ideas of what is right for them is not always theres. If you have ever had a snake escape you don't find them basking in the window or curled up in a potted plant you usualy find them wedged in tight in a dark closet.
Rob

Your posts tell me the info about you. You are but a babe in the woods scarecely dry behind the ears yet you assert a position of authority. I walk the walk and talk the talk but you see I'm the real deal. I am in a position of authority because I'VE EARNED IT. YOU HAVE NOT....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, well said. But I think some people are so narcissistic and therefor delusional about how good there opinion is that they will not learn no matter how well you connect the dots for them.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Lets be honest here fellas. StephF ,like his views or not, is not entirely wrong in what he is saying. Just because Terry had his facility since the 70's doesn't preclude him from:

1. improving it
2. following the local codes. These codes where not all that recent or new.

I have only talked with Terry Cullen a few times but we are both part of the croc circle. His knowledge was/is well regarded. That is totally seperate from all of this.

Like you said in a previous post Tom, to a person outside the hobby he looks like a hoarder and the time for secrecy and that type of animal keeping has past. If he is guilty of the crimes he is charged with I frankly don't give a flip what he did with animals.

That being said if the animals where properly cared for I have zero problem with him having 1000 if he wants them. But I think the animal issue may prove secondary here as it is possible he is a legitmate bad actor.

>>before you criticize others Steph. I've stated that he has had that facility since the 1970's. In those days there were NO LAWS concerning keeping herps. Why do you continue to argue with folks that are clearly EONS ahead of you in terms on knowledge and experience? At your point in life you should be trying to learn NOT trying to give YOUR PERSONAL BIASED OPINIONS that have NO factual base. It's clear you have no idea what's at stake here with all the attacks on our personal freedoms. I'm guessing it's because you grew up in a different time so you had already lost a lot of yours or you are some weird socialist that actually believe you need someone to dictate your likes and dislikes. Personally I believe in FREEDOM FOR ALL UNLESS YOU'RE HURTING OTHERS WHICH HIM KEEPING HIS HERPS did not infringe upon anyones freedom...thanks
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

I don't know everthing I've only been keeping crocs for a little over 20 years.
I did have a very interesting conversation the other day with an individual who has been talking to Terry on a regular basis.
Original accounts spoke of the hundreds of rodents running free.
I always found this peculiar. Typically when I lose a rodent or 2 or 100 they run and hide. I may see them periodically but they are not constantly racing across the floor.
Jane told this friend that the cops busted in. The dogs are barking, the cops have their guns drawn. Jane pleads with them to let her put the dogs up in another room. There are 4 dogs.
Instead they open fire killing 2. The other 2 ran outside where 1 may have been shot. The other one got away. With the dogs gone the cops rush forward pushing over racks full of rodents.
Now rodent feces covers the floor and live rodents are everywhere.
Now they call animal control.
As odd as it seems for the police to push over the racks this would explain why moments later when a.c. shows up there are loose rodents running everywhere.
Most of the more exotic crocs were from an old collection from Minnesota. They were poorly cared for. The dwarf besides a misshapen snout only had 1 eye. The original owner finally relinquished the collection to Terry.
I have a friend whose Mom had the largest private collection of adult Specs in the country(that I'm aware of).
When she died he wanted to give the animals to a zoo.
No zoo wanted 30 plus adult spec caimans. He has since decided to keep them where they are. This is the right decision. If he were to move those animals after 30-40 years in the same enclosures 90% would be dead in a year.
I don't know Terry. I have never talked to him. But I have heard about him for years. Having property down in FL I have to believe there was a reason he did'nt move the animals down.
When crocs have been abused for years and kept in smaller enclosures it is better to just leave them be. Regardless of perception it is what is best for the animal. Particulary smaller or shyer species.
You can learn a lot about animals by reading. Some things, subtle things you are only going to learn after years of close observation. At least this is my observation. D.C.

Well put and thanks for the clarification.

I still stand by Terry's reputation.
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Tim Cole
www.austinherpsociety.org
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

Danny,

I'm not entirely sure what that had to do with what I am saying. Having kept crocs for more that 20 years myself I agree with some of your statements. I take with a grain of salt the media reports but as Tom mentioned before in this age, particuarly with large reptiles, the bar has been raised. If he was out of city code and didn't at least attempt a waiver it's really a difficult stance to defend in light of all the current legislation.

As far as the cops coming in guns drawn etc, I don't know enought to say but if it was related to the charges of kidnapping et al I'm certainly not going to judge law enforement in that case.

I know the individual in Missouri that you are speaking about(he just emailed me as a matter of fact) and he does have allot of caiman. I don't agree he couldn't move them though, it just has to be done properly. I also know of several individuals with more in Florida although they lost a bunch last winter.

And while I do agree that small enclosures work well for shy species allot of that also has to do with proper enclosure design. Even a shy species enjoys a larger area if it has multiple hides in a well planted enclosure. It's not the small enclosure itself that works but the perception of safety the animal feels.

BTW when are you around this summer? we are coming your way in a few weeks
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

I have had as much experience with crocs as anyone here and have bred likely more species than anyone anywhere. Also I have received numerous crocs raised in small cattle tanks inside of many species. All of them in my care thrived when placed outside. My enclosures were built according to the specific need of the species. Not one time was there a failure to thrive when placed outside. Over the years I literally have had thousands of crocs and at one time had 19 species on the farm. My success speaks for itself and I will debate anyone on this subject. My experience is NOT based on having only a handful of specimens but at times over 5,000 in stock at one time counting Alligators.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I agree. Every time we have received one that has been kept indoors regardless of duration they have thrived when placed outdoors. The key is a proper enclosure. The only crocs we keep indoors are small animals in the winter.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

If one understands the species they thrive and I concur with you 100%....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

First off, personally only once have I had a perfectly healthy animal(small female spec) and put her in a larger nicer enclosure and she crashed and burned. Stopped eating, withdrew and was dead in 3 months.
In the mid 90's Snake Farm had an adult female False Gavial. Tom will remember he wanted to buy it. Instead the owner sent her on breeding loan to the San Antonio zoo.
They put her in an enclosure which was as nice as any enclosure I've seen. The river runs through the enclosure with a constant 68 degrees. Planted to the "t" very natural, lots of places to hide???? the perfect enclosure. 2 years later give or take she was dead. The neocropsy said she was obese. She was.
At Snake Farm her enclosure consisted of a strip of concrete followed by a concrete pool. A small door led outside to a small basking area.No where to hide, constantly on display. This is where she spent the last 20 years of her life. She was obese. So is the female Salt in the next identical pen. Who was the same age which means she is now close to 40 years old. Nowhere to hide. No enrichment. Simply the comfort and assurance of being in the same enclosure all these years.
Simply put they were/are both queens of their own domain.
Was there extenuating circumstances? Of course, there always are.
They had added a younger adult male False Gavial and a younger female. I'm sure the male was more aggressive though roughly the same size.
But Chris this is what you and Tom fail to realize. Just because you have had luck transferring animals does'nt mean everyone would have the same luck. A False Gavial is not a small species.
You take Palps, Trigs, and Specs and Dwarfs this is different. I know Tom bred Yacares forever but Palps are not Niles.
Snake Farm had 12 different species of crocodilians. I have had 10.
Although S.A. killed the croc I don't think this is the norm. But in private collections with less experienced keepers this happens more often. I worked at the Snake Farm for 5 years, a lot of people off the street with a lot of stories. There are always extenuating circumstances; positive and negative. It depends on the keepers expertise which one prevails.
20 years keeping crocs,Wow you must be living right because you don't look that old.
I know you know our buddy in MO. However if there is anyone else who has a collection of adult Specs that are between 25-40 years old and has at least 25 of these. I want to know them. I want names and phone numbers. Of course I don't know everyone, in fact I hardly know anyone.
I don't leave until August, I have the odd show here and there.
Let me know. D.C.

Danny,

All I can say about that is I agree some people have more trouble than others. We have never had a problem particuarlly if we move them in spring. We did have one alligator that had a small problem when we moved him close to winter and we moved him back inside until the spring. Every other 'adoption' we have had that we placed outside has been problem free in a well planted and designed enclosure.

If the gavial died 2 years later it would be hard to say conclusively the move killed her. It is just as likely she would have died in the previous location particuarlly since the animal was admittedly obese.

As to Tom and I not realizing this fact I simply don't agree. In the instance you referring to the animal died 2 years later, was obese, and had the stress of other animals placed on it. Not exactly how I would have done that move.

I agree Palps are not Niles. I transferred an adult palp from a local museum to our location. Placed it in a well planted enclosure without any incident. Did the same with three other adults which we later shipped to a friend in FL. He then placed them in a different outdoor enclosure and they have been there for years. Same with a large number of specs he has acquired from a variety of places. Every spec I have ever received was from someone keeping it indoors for the most part. We have never had a problem. The only spec problem we ever have is w-i-n-t-e-r.

I agree keeper skill varies as do their resources. I don't think this should preclude someone from attempting to give the animal the best possible home and the best case scenario. rare is the indoor scenario that equals the outdoor counterpart.

As to the people I know with allot of specs, I can't speak to their age. They have acquired them from a variety of sources over the years. They have not had them for 40 years as they themselves are 40 years old. Heck this guy lost 13 last winter and still has a pond full of them. This is neither here nor there though as the primary point was I think our friend could move his caiman successfully.

Oh and I just turned 40 and I don't look that old- thankfully
-----
CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

You know what? I had a Dwarf Caiman a few years back. Can't tell them apart, so don't know which one for sure. Have to look at bona fide typicals side by side to get a grasp of it.

Anyway, my observation was that the little guy liked to dig (backwards) into bank material at the waterline. As in the deep side/channel side of a river bend (inside bank of an outer river bend).

So, that's my observation on Dwarf Caimans. Also surmised they caught crayfish, insects, fish, frogs, and other marginal creatures by ambush or with a flip of the tail. Seemed to be a real crawfish getter. He was maintained outdoors.

Not even an issue setting up a psychologically appealing environment for one of the critters, in my opinion.

Just my thoughts.
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

All our crocs dig burrows. The Niles dig HUGE burrows. Pretty impressive earth movers. It's one of the most fascinating aspects of keeping them outdoors. Often one of the most challenging also.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Morelets were the only crocs that dug more than Niles. The fencing is a HUGE problem in keeping digging crocs like Niles. I'll bet you go nuts with them digging under the fence. I know I did and my enclosures were HUGE...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I have seen a huge morelet burrow at a friends place in FL. The nice thing about the Nile burrows in my area is that our clay soil limits them a little, very little actually but they never ever come up. So the burrow can be outside the actual enclosure fence but still within the secondary fence.

They go deep though on occasion. I keep quite a few species but Niles are far and away my favorite.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

The Tomistoma wouldn't have died with me. The reason is I understand crocs and certainly wouldn't have put her with another pair immediately. I COMPLETLY UNDERSTAND CROCS AS I DO ALL HERPS. I've bred 11 species of crocs. Kenny Earnest I think has bred 9 and is BY FAR the closest to me in success. One has to really understand crocs to breed them. I bred most species year after year and that means I know my sh%t when it comes to crocs. Another factor is the water temp of 68 degrees which is a bit cold. The only Tomistoma I ever lost was one I put on loan to the Atlanta Zoo and they killed her in about 6 months. You say I don't understand crocs. How many species have you bred?...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

TC, I seriously doubt any one would challenge your abilities with crocodilians. I think what was meant is that few people have the resources and abilities that you and Chris Dieter have. So its not a stretch to say that most would have a harder time introducing and acclimating a animal to an environment than you would.

"But Chris this is what you and Tom fail to realize. Just because you have had luck transferring animals does'nt mean everyone would have the same luck"

I think what you took exception with was the word "luck"
Luck was what you had 30 yrs ago. Today we all know you have skills!
-----
1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

Another factor is the water temp of 68 degrees which is a bit cold.

I won't even begin to comment on crocs but I do work with a lot of stuff from Borneo, sumatra and the Malay peninsula plant and animal wise and that seemed a little cold to me as well. When I used to breed gouramis I usually kept the temps at around 82-84 which is fine for them but high for fish from other parts of the tropics. I have some tiger barbs in a pond outside now temps are probably around 72-74 and they are not liking it so much.

Even though I do not work with crocs I do find the info interesting as it can always help when working with species from the same habitat. So I am not arguing anything here just wondering and trying to learn from other's insights.

Tom, first off I have tremendous respect for the success you have had breeding crocs.
Ken Ernst gave me my first "true" croc in '94.
I said you don't understand people. Which you just proved by not comprehending my post and even after Kachunga pointed out the intent, you did'nt respond.
Obviously you had a superior setup and a great knowledge of crocs, I think Chris has a nice setup and knowledge also.
But you guys are only 2 keepers. What about all the other keepers.
Have they had the same success moving older well established adult crocs from smaller familiar enclosures to much larger, unfamiliar enclosures which may or may not include introduced aggressive cagemates.
I say once again a lot of them have not had good success.
Now since you were so needlessly aggressive with me I'l throw a little back to you. Having hundreds of crocodilians, plus running a major wholesale reptile co. You must have had employees. I only met you once and I could be wrong but my impression was you had a 40 acre croc compound in Bushnell. But you did'nt live there.
I only have 30 crocodilians. They live on the property that I live on. My job is doing educational reptile shows. A typical year I may do between 50-80 dates. (I'm not as popular as Kachunga lol)The last 2 years you could cut those dates in half.
When I'm gone my wife takes care of the animals, if we're both gone it falls to my sister.
But I'm home almost 300 days a year. I would say very few people unless they are retired can say this. And I've been like this for 10 years.
If the crocs get fed, I'm feeding them.
If the crocs get cleaned, I'm cleaning them.
If the crocs get moved, I'm moving them.
In the winter when someone gets up 2-3 times a night to check heaters and stuff, it's me.
I think you get the point. No employees, no help, at least not consistently. Just me and the animals. But I spend an ENORMOUS amount of time observing and working around the animals.
I've only bred Specs, that's it. But I know crocs and I CHALLENGE ANYONE to a debate over how much time they have spent with captive crocs. Kachunga was diplomatic, I'm pissed so I won't be.
He said you have croc skills, I agree.
But you've also been incredibly lucky.
Wealthy enough to own 40 acres.
Lucky to be old enough to have imported animals which now would be impossible to obtain. Lucky enough to have contacts to get you animals and share their knowledge with you.
If I had 40 acres of prime croc country and I had mature adults of both sexes of 19 different species. Maybe I would not have bred 11. But by God I would have bred 10!!!
But I did'nt, I have'nt. And you did. So I give you the kudos you deserve.
But all croc people have some knowledge or skill in excess that other keepers may not have. For example, when Kachunga is working he is catching up an adult gator 3 times a day. If he has 80-100 dates a year he could be catching up big gators 300 times a year. Most keepers and even farms for that matter simply don't do that. No reason for it. But by doing, by having his hands on a big gator 3 times a day he is going to learn, he is going to have some knowledge the rest of us don't have.
One last point. The debate seems to have steered in a strange direction. I NEVER SAID THAT INDOORS WAS PREFERABLE TO OUTDOORS.
If my wife were to read this thread and think that people thought that I thought that indoors were preferable to outdoors she would have a holy sh#tfit. Keeping 80% of my croc collection outdoors as I ALWAYS have cost me right at $1,000.00 a month for my electric bill in the winter. Just so they can haul out of that warm water when it is sunny and 40 to lay out in the sun.
BTW Tom on this we clearly disagree and I don't have a problem with that. I know you are a croc guy and I remember something you said a long time ago. "you don't keep crocs because you think you're going to make a lot of money, you keep crocs because you love crocs. That is something we both agree on. D.C.

First of all I did live on the farm. I personally fed every croc there and personally took care of them or directed personal to do so. I'm the guy that used conditioning first like Flavio made famous to control crocs. Personally I made every croc come out of the water to be fed so I could inspect for injuries etc. I'm the guy that built ponds with watery fingers for visual barriers etc. Diets were experimented with to enhance production and I learned that diet was the greatest single factor in croc production. One thing I did NOT do was catch my crocs to move them as I discovered their very smart and it would take months to gain their trust back if I manhandled them. I had them because I loved them. Another factor is if all of a sudden you had 19 species and the $$ to do whatever you wanted their NOT that easy to breed. You have to look at social structures, diet, enclosures, and a plethora of other factors that I learned by trial and error. It is NOT easy and you would have to be there constantly to observe and understand in order to be successful. What I said was that EVERY croc I had that was raised in a cattle tank inside thrived for me outside. The reason for that is that I UNDERSTAND CROCS. If other folks have been unsuccessful I would have to think it's their fault for them not thriving. My experience is NOT based on a few crocs but many dozens. I constantly observed, changed when necessary, and did whatever was need to insure success and I was successful. I'm not trying to argue with you just stating facts. The difference in this is that I've actually acheived it. I'm not bragging just being truthful and until someone tries to do something on that scale it's just talk. These post started about how we no longer can house lg crocs in cattle tanks because of public perception and THAT IS TRUE. I understand exactly what your saying and once more I'll say we no longer can keep herps in enclosures that are not defensible as adequate. That is the REAL issue here....thanks and I never meant you any harm words Danny BUT I will NOT back down on what I think is right either...I have a lot of respect for anyone keeping crocs but if you can't afford adequate facilities for them then the person should NOT have them. Just because someone loves something it does not give them a right to keep it under bad conditions. I side with the crocs...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

After reading that I can't believe how similiar you and I are in terms of philosophy with these animals. Up to and including the design of the pools. We always use either an H, U, L or other bend(s) to create visual barriers. Recently we have been using a 'subway' system that connects 3 Nile pools and really reduces conflict to nill.

I also feed out of the water for inspection. We also use conditioning for allot of reasons. We also don't move them except for emergencies past 2 years of age due to stress. The big ones take a long time to recover from a capture.

I also agree totally with the last paragraph.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

BTW luck had nothing to do with it as many facilities such as St. Augustine Alligator Farm have many species but rarely breed anything. IT AIN'T AND WASN'T LUCK....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, you were legendary with your Thomistoma breeding. And anyone that wants to see how animals should be kept in as near to natural conditions a they can, should visit Tom's farm. Witness his Diamond python breeding recently. To paraphrase an old TV commercial, when Tom C. speaks, people listen.

Actually the False Gavials were the only species I really tried to breed and failed. It peturbs me to this day....LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Well smack me with a 2X4...lol. I thought you had. I know you had nice ponds set up for them.

I sure did Jay. At one time I had 11 Tomistoma and I slowly traded them off for other things until I only had one pair. That was a big mistake. The one pair is still alive and reside at Alligator Adventure in Myrtle Beach, S. C.. Tommy, my big male, is now about 16' long and still growing. I aquired Tommy as a cattle tank croc in 1972 when he was 4' long....It's been a long time hasn't it Jay?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

A very long time, yes. I miss going to those IHS meetings, too. I think Sam S. is still affilited with Alligator Adventure, correct?

He sure is. I remember getting those adult Dermatemys mawi from you and Sam eons ago. They're likely the ONLY ones ever brought into the U.S........
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I measure time with Sam by what wife he was married to at the time....lol

You have a point there. I've always been lucky in that respect...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Pythons and I have 2 more gravid females to go. Three females = three clutches so now I know my theory of how to breed them consistently was correct. These are 100% Diamonds and NOT the Diamond crosses you see posted as pure today...thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

If I had 40 acres of prime croc country and I had mature adults of both sexes of 19 different species. Maybe I would not have bred 11. But by God I would have bred 10!!!

I know people have preconceived ideas of Fl. but Bushnell isn't exactly "prime croc country". Sumter county is one of the coldest areas around here in the winter. I actually live northeast of where Tom's facility was and it does not get as cold at my house as it does in Bushnell. Kudos to him for doing a croc farm there. I know I wouldn't.

The cold was a HUGE problem along with not intense enough UV like I get down here where I am now. Crocs are either compatable or not and you sometimes can finagle incompatible to be compatible but again the social structures are very complex and difficult to work out. One big male Saltie I could never get to accept any female. I tried him with 3 girls and it never worked out with all kinds of tricks [his cage, her cage, new cage, etc]. I traded him to GatoRama and he's that giant Black porosus there...It's not as easy as it seems which is why so few croc exhibits ever breed anything. It truly was a labour of love as I lost money every year and lots of it. I have no regrets as I learned a lot in the process......
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

For those that don't know Tom's buddy Ken Ernst he is at Reptile Gardens. Rapid City SD.
Gets a little chilly up there.
Where I live in TX we got down to 8 this year.That is the coldest in the 20 years that I've been here. However most days are at least in the 50s and usually sunny.
The biggest problem is we live on one huge rock. That makes digging ponds difficult. Most pools are built above ground. Of course crocs digging out is'nt an issue.
I think I misspoke about the San Antonio river, I believe it is 72 degrees year round instead of 68 not that that makes any difference.
I did'nt make the CAG meeting in S.A., but I heard that the S.A Zoo has had a little success with their remaining pair of False Gavials. I don't know how many offspring but I believe they've gone 2 years in a row. At this date no replacement animals have been offered to John. D.C.

It's doubtful the croc will be offered ever. After all I put at least 9 Cyclura lewisi on loan at several Zoo's and they killed them all over time. I've never been offered a replacement yet....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

That's crap.
E. Turner was never compensated for the 2 adult female Galops Brownsville killed.
I don't understand the zoo's mentality,"we're not responsible" attitude. I would'nt let them borrow squat.
BTW I'm constantly on E. Turners butt to write down his memoirs.
You should do the same. In addition to a croc breeding book.
Maybe you think everyone should learn on their own, but as a wannabe author I think being a published author is the finest thing. Especially on a cool subject like croc breeding.
But at least do your adventures.
I keep a journal not just about animal stories but everyday crap that happens when I travel and the people I meet.
I'm pretty sure John got over the tomistoma fiasco a long time ago. D.C.

Thanks Danny. Actually I've been commissioned to do an autobiography but I'm finding it difficult to write about my life as I consider it ordinary. Keep up the work with crocs as almost no others are working with them and very few ever did. If your down this way ever I'll sit down and tape to you all I've learned about species, diets, social structures, training procedures [important with dangerous crocs], etc. I'm now well into my 60's and likely studied them as much as anyone. Somehow this info needs to be preserved for those to come. I can save them a LOT of time and by skipping my part they can learn even more because already a base would be there to learn more from. K. Earnest only worked for me about 6 months but he has a treasure trove of knowledge hidden away as well. I hope you continue to do what you do despite the obstacles. I know as I had them as well....thank you
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Hey Tom,

Adam Britton and I have a new book on crocs 90% finished. It has been on the runway for nearly 7 years. The section on breeding is pretty good but I would enjoy adding your input to the chapter. If I fly into FL one weekend would it be possible to have a sit down for a few hours and let me get some of your thoughts on the 11 species you have bred? At the very least I will add it to the next edition of my 'Ultimate Guide' which will be hardcover in the 4th edition.

What do you say?

If necessary you can email me off the forum.

>>Thanks Danny. Actually I've been commissioned to do an autobiography but I'm finding it difficult to write about my life as I consider it ordinary. Keep up the work with crocs as almost no others are working with them and very few ever did. If your down this way ever I'll sit down and tape to you all I've learned about species, diets, social structures, training procedures [important with dangerous crocs], etc. I'm now well into my 60's and likely studied them as much as anyone. Somehow this info needs to be preserved for those to come. I can save them a LOT of time and by skipping my part they can learn even more because already a base would be there to learn more from. K. Earnest only worked for me about 6 months but he has a treasure trove of knowledge hidden away as well. I hope you continue to do what you do despite the obstacles. I know as I had them as well....thank you
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com
-----
CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Absolutely I would. At present I'm writing numerous articles for Reptiles Magazine, a book on West Indian Boas, an autobigraphy, and co-authoring a scientific paper revising an entire genus of Boa [not the genus Boa]. Can we agree that I'm indeed a busy guy writing...LOL...In addition I'm, with the help of Bruce and Patty, running a breeding Farm with thousands of herps on it of a plethora of reptilian orders. Thank God for Patty and Bruce or I could never do it. Currently we have HUNDREDS OF EGGS of high end herps cooking with hundreds more to come. I hope the new incubators get here quick as we're about full now. I can't do everything and I'm glad you and Adam are doing this. It would be my pleasure to give you all the info I learned and because I had so many species I learned things others may never have a chance to learn....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I understand the busy schedule. If necessary I can send you a list of questions via email and in your 'spare' time you can answer them and send them my way. Although I would enjoy seeing your facility and visiting a friend or two in FL over a weekend.

I'll toss you some dates and we'll see if any work out.

Thanks Tom.

>>Absolutely I would. At present I'm writing numerous articles for Reptiles Magazine, a book on West Indian Boas, an autobigraphy, and co-authoring a scientific paper revising an entire genus of Boa [not the genus Boa]. Can we agree that I'm indeed a busy guy writing...LOL...In addition I'm, with the help of Bruce and Patty, running a breeding Farm with thousands of herps on it of a plethora of reptilian orders. Thank God for Patty and Bruce or I could never do it. Currently we have HUNDREDS OF EGGS of high end herps cooking with hundreds more to come. I hope the new incubators get here quick as we're about full now. I can't do everything and I'm glad you and Adam are doing this. It would be my pleasure to give you all the info I learned and because I had so many species I learned things others may never have a chance to learn....thanks
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

I believe this is important enough to make time for and I have no croc book plans that I know of...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

My son is in 2nd grade and today we were doing homework and it is about alligators and crocs. We are stumped on one of the questions: Why don't they make good pets?
Rob

Because they lack the stamina to walk on a leash!
LOL
-----
1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

Well there are a bunch of reasons but the biggest one is that most get reasonbly large and a full bite from even a 4' long croc can be a life changing event. Thats enough I'd say..LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Having been bitten several times I would have to agree. Although it wasnt the worst one I have had, the bite of a 9' alligator on the knee was probably the most painful. The pressure takes your breathe away.
-----
1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

I had a 9' plus Nile Croc catch my foot in a thick boot and it broke bones even though I stopped the jerk and roll. I was wrapped around that croc like a Python with my head facing it's tail. It ripped my boot off and took multiple stitches plus a cast. I'll show you the scar next time your here. I ONLY felt the pressure but no pain from the teeth. It was like my foot was in a vise. Lucky I was powerful enough to control it until I could get help...NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART AND BEING EXTRAORDINARILY STRONG HELPS A LOT....Keep on going to the gym Kachunga if you want to keep manhandling Gators. Only someone like me can understand how good you really are....Pulling them around by a rope is NOT the same as barehanded. I've done both....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

There's your first writing assignment.lol D.C.

It was more a toung in cheek question. I just think its funny how schools are starting to teach young kids not to keep certain animals. Another time it was why don't monkeys make good pets.
On another note today my 1st grader came in the house and asked me to help him get the black racer he caught to let go of his finger.
Rob

If he was'nt crying, I'll adopt him.lol D.C.

because they eat all your other pets????

I'd have had fun with that question. I think I was 3 when my obsession with T-rexes started. I always wanted one for a pet knowing full well how big they were supposed to have gotten.
When I was 6 they came out with that show "Land of the Lost", they should have called that show " Highway to Hell" because it was for me.
When I was 9 I moved to south Texas and spent ALL of my free time running up and down the San Fernando creek off of 44 outside of Alice looking for every kind of reptile I could find. The holy grail of course was the Alligator everyone claimed were in that creek. I never found them (thank God, I probably wouldn't be here if I had.) Like I said I'm sure I would have had fun with that question.

I really did well with C. rhombifer. Those I can give you a recipe on in order to produce lots of babies. I produced several hundred of them over a 7 year period....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, if you ever have the time to sit down and share your knowledge, species by species, let me know when! I'd drive down tomorrow for that session!
-----
1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

I'll always make time for you so just let me know...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You have always been so hospitible. Looks like I will be scheduling a road trip soon as my schedule will allow.
See ya soon
Bert
-----
1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

The "ordinary" is what people want to hear about. If you have'nt read this British vet series you need to. His name is James Herriot and he is just a vet. It is a real easy read. All kinds of people like it not just animal people.
I think you should do what I do. Pick one story/adventure and write it. It may be 2 pages it may be 20 pages does'nt matter.
Then keep doing that. You can worry about the connective tissue later or you may like it like that. A collection of essays. If any involve your wife that's even better.
Looks like you've opened a hornets nest with your generous offer of a breeding lecture series. I will definitely take you up on that.
Think of good stories to and I'll video tape you, once again if your wife is there so much the better.
My wife made a little video of Earl and Anna after his last bite and it really turned out well. D.C.

I'm sorry to say I provided the B. parviocula that bit poor Earl. Earl doesn't need a bite like that since it was the first recorded in the U.S. and there's NO antivenom....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Back in the 80's I put a nice male BlackHeaded python on breeding loan to the Staten Island zoo. They never even told me it died They gave me a 11' Burm as a replacement!

BTW Tom, there was a really nice 1 hour show on Nat Geo's Wild channel strictly on Black Caiman two nights ago. Very well done. Seems as if there's a lake where they all get fat on fish when the dry season hits. Some approach 20' in length.

As per time with the animals I think the Barkers have the correct idea. Each animal you keep merits one year. Keep an alligator for a year you have 1 year of gator experience. Keep 100 you have 100 years.

In my view this has merit but also I know that the difference in what I've learned from the animals in our current facility is light years more than I learned in less natural conditions in prior years. Really astounding difference actually. There are only so many things one can see with most limited captive enclosures. That puts a ceiling on some aspects of observation that are lifted when the animals are given free reign in a natural setup.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

There is a HUGE difference in croc behaviour by just allowing them to swim.....Chris it sounds as your doing exactly what I was doing. Remember though that all croc species do NOT behave like Niles. Many require specialized eclosures custom built for the species held....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Agreed, we make changes depending on which species we are keeping. We only keep a few species and I personally have no real plans to collect them all. Not my angle. We currently have Niles, Salts, Siamese, Chinese alligators,specs,dwarf caiman and American alligators.

Thats enough for me. Although I may make exceptions for black caiman and American crocs in the future. But I am more than content with what I have currently.

>>There is a HUGE difference in croc behaviour by just allowing them to swim.....Chris it sounds as your doing exactly what I was doing. Remember though that all croc species do NOT behave like Niles. Many require specialized eclosures custom built for the species held....thanks
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

You should get C. acutus as their a native and one of my favorites....thanks...Only problem with acutus is that they don't tolerate cold well. That's another little bit of info I have most others don't and that's which species tolerates cold the best...Makes a huge difference in keeping them...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Love the Siamese.
When did you get them?
What size were they?
I got one from J. Durham (Silver Springs) in '99. He told me they were the fastest growing croc in the world. I got 2 that year (both females) and they grew like CRAZY!!!
Love their head. Finest head on a croc.
Most crocs eventually will have a fine head but Siamese out of the egg have the best head.
Fed my 2 big girls 6 lb goat fetus the other day, really fine.
Unfortunately the 2 others I'm raising up I have a feeling they are both females. 4 Siamese all females this would be my luck.
I think since they seem to breed readily in captivity and they are not a "giant" croc people tend to over look them. But as you can tell I'm a big fan! D.C.

Siamese are very easy to breed. I sold some to Silver Springs in fact.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

They are not over looked or under rated in my book!
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

Siamese are great but imho i've always thought Muggers are the most over looked of the croc's is anyone in this country really working with these be it private or public facility?
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

Love Muggers.
And you're right noone seems to have them. I know the Lufkin Zoo(Texas) had a pair that would breed. The female always laid the eggs in the water????? I think this is fairly common but it my simple brain I thought it was easy to rectify. I told them to drain the pool. Fill it up for 8 hours a day and have someone(a docent) watching the pool the whole time it has water. If she starts to lay in the water, drain it.
The reason I think Siamese are underrated is the whole familiarity breeds contempt thing. Being readily available and fairly inexpensive they are like the Spectacled Caiman of the croc world.
If you can figure out a way to bring in some farm raised Muggers, count me in. D.C.

The Siamese are out there and likely would be more common in private collections if they where not state locked most of the time.

I like muggers also and might amend my list to include that species. I am partial to that massive skull.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

The frustrating part is that Rom Whitager has thousands of them at MCB that he can't do anything with he can't release them and he can't export them.
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

I bred Muggers once. They are hole nest builders NOT mound nest builders. To get them to lay properly you need a suitable nesting site which most folks don't provide thus they lay eggs in the water..Very simple really....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Just out of curiosity Tom I believe you said you have kept 19 of the 23 species of crocs what are the 4 you haven't kept? I'm going to guess Gharials, Philippino crocs, Black caiman and broad snout caiman.
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

I had both Black Caiman and latirostris. I didn't have intermedius or johnstoni in addition to the other 2 you mentioned...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Well 2 out of 4 ain't to bad I guess. C.latrostris is another of my favorates but unfortunially overlooked and underrated species
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

I only had one and sold it to John at the Snake Farm in TX. Mine wouldn't eat at first but I got it started by eating snails. It loved snails...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Orinocos are one of my dream crocs.
when I found that Joe Teska sent a pair of subadults to a zoo in Canada on breeding loan I came undone. I hounded him but he could'nt find paperwork or even remember the name.
I always assumed he got them from Tom. D.C.

We have 4 Siamese and they are little guys. I like them and they are growing on me. I don't enjoy them as I do my Niles but I do like their vocalizations. If I like them a year from now I will add to the group depending on sex.

I have some reservations in regards to the species simply because of winter. Niles are very cold tolerant and as we move the Siamese into natural enclosures we want to ensure they thrive.

>>Love the Siamese.
>>When did you get them?
>>What size were they?
>>I got one from J. Durham (Silver Springs) in '99. He told me they were the fastest growing croc in the world. I got 2 that year (both females) and they grew like CRAZY!!!
>>Love their head. Finest head on a croc.
>>Most crocs eventually will have a fine head but Siamese out of the egg have the best head.
>>Fed my 2 big girls 6 lb goat fetus the other day, really fine.
>>Unfortunately the 2 others I'm raising up I have a feeling they are both females. 4 Siamese all females this would be my luck.
>>I think since they seem to breed readily in captivity and they are not a "giant" croc people tend to over look them. But as you can tell I'm a big fan! D.C.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Siamese are very cold hardy perhaps not as much as Niles but still take a LOT of cold....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

That is very good to know, I appreciate that information.

>>Siamese are very cold hardy perhaps not as much as Niles but still take a LOT of cold....
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>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

All this Croc talk got my interest and led me to this site.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/cnhc/csp_ppal.htm
Think I'm partial to Caiman and the smaller Crocs.
Wouldn't mind having all Caiman species.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Tom, it appears that people are learning something that some of us older herpers have known for a long time.....that you sure know what you're talking about

This I completly agree with...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

WITI-TV, MILWAUKEE - The man who had hundreds of reptiles confiscated from him now faces 22 criminal charges, and not all of these charges are animal related. Investigators say the Terry Cullen didn't only mistreat animals he mistreated a 24-year-old woman.

On May 14th, the execution of a search warrant led Milwaukee Police to an unexpected discovery. They found hundreds of animals most of which were reptiles.

Police were searching for the owner of all the exotic animals, but their initial investigation had nothing to do with all the reptiles. Milwaukee police officers were executing search warrant to gain clues in a sexual assault case.

A 24-year-old woman came forward with accusations that Terry Cullen sexually assaulted her, and held her at his residence against her will.

The unidentified woman told police she met Terry Cullen at a reptile swap held at the Tinley Park Convention Center in the Village of Tinley Park, IL. She says Cullen was at the reptile swap representing a group he formed called Cullen Vivarium Wildlife Conservancy.

After a long conversation about reptiles the woman agreed to meet with Cullen about a possible internship opportunity with his organization based in Milwaukee. Cullen agreed to drive the young woman back to her home in Illinois, if her mother drove her up to Milwaukee.

According to the criminal complaint Cullen brought the "intern" to his house on S. 17th St. he worked out of. The young woman told Cullen she wasn't feeling well, and wanted to go home. Cullen insisted that she have a seat, and told her a message would help her feel better.

The young woman claims that the message led to inappropriate touching, and false imprisonment. In the criminal complaint she says he held her down and made her remover her clothing. She explains she was afraid of Cullen, since she was smaller than him.

Instead of driving the young woman back home at night, she says Cullen told her to tell her mother that she would be staying for the night.

Police corroborated a lot of the information the young woman gave them when they executed a search warrant on two houses Cullen used to treat animals.

Cullen turned himself in on May 26th, and tells FOX6, "I'm Innocent of all charges".
www.fox6now.com/news/witi-100527-cullen-charges,0,3384851.story

I watched the video. Is this what I saw? ===> Don't understand how someone with pyramiding Spur-thigh tortoises housed indoors in small aquariums should be considered an authority on the subject. Are green seedless grapes a normal part of Star tortoises' diet? I really don't know, but I'd think something a bit closer to grass would be better for them to eat. I'll have to check. Somebody clue me in. Did I see that?

I think the whole thing stinks to high heaven. That sexual assault and all that other stuff from the woman complainant sounds so contrived.

I did not comment. Is anyone going to comment?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I will comment.If there is truth all I have to say is thanks Terry for putting one more nail in our coffin .Also I think I agree with Tom on crocs.I know others have extreme experience in this subject I find it hard to think that a properly set up outside set up could hurt a croc.I recently had a conversation with a guy who swore you could not put dwarf caimens outside.I had babies from the SA zoo that has a pr that they have kept outside over 20 years.I also agree that we at this time must evolve and set up the best cages possible for our charges.This is something I am working on myself.My bothrops as well as my porthidium live in cages with live plants and a bio soil and man they do great in there.I set my leps up on there rock they come from cut with a diamond saw.We now more than ever must lead the way in houseing of our herps.That also means setting up outside natural cageing for snakes as well.It is a time to shine.

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Archie Bottoms

Perhaps I am missing something here, You said someone you know claims dwarf caimans can't be kept outside. Is there some sort of huge indoor facility in the amazon basin that we don't know about where all these dwarf caimans live?
I don't work with crocodilians myself but I'm just saying....

EVERY SPECIES OF CROC LIVE BETTER OUTSIDE. I'VE HAD 19 DIFFERENT SPECIES AND HAVE BRED 11 SPECIES. NO ONE YET HAS ACHIEVED THAT RECORD. I WILL DEBATE ANYONE ON THIS SUBJECT...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Surely you know I was being a smart axe Tom. I live here in Fl as well my goal is to keep everything I have reptile wise (except the snakes) outside as much as possible.
My property is all scrub oak sand pines and wild rosemary so it is relatively dry and I have had excellent luck in the past keeping uromastyx outside here year round (plastic cover in winter.). The only time I had any trouble with it being too wet for them was in 2004 during the hurricanes. It's just amazing how much better things do outside compared to inside. Not to mention it is much easier to build bigger cages. A small quickly thrown together outdoor cage for me would be something with a floor space 4' x8', that is probably the equivelent of about 6, 55 gallon tanks floor space wise.

It was NOT directed at you at all. I've heard the same thing Archie has about Paleosuchus and if you expose them always to bright sun they will develop a fungus on their back which can be fatal. They die because some dumba%^s puts them in the sun without knowing their a rain forest species. They do NOT bask and build a nest usually near a termite mound to achieve maximal warmth for the eggs.....You were dead right and shows how lacking in knowledge many are that have certain specialized herps...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

My experience with turtles is the same. They always do much better when maintained outdoors. So long as they can thermalregulate and get in and out of the sun, and have a snug hide to escape inclement weather/the elements, they do just fine.

The point we need to make with the public on snakes is that they are so maintenance friendly and low maintenance indoors. Most kept in captivity thrive indoors, requiring very little space.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yea I thought the dwarf inside thing was nuts.Danny I agree that moveing an old adult could cause problems,I remember the tomastoma incident well he was given no compinstiion at all.John had said to me that they had killed it by there care as well as the way they had moved it.I remember the animal well.I had a caimen for 28 years and it lives outside in south texas now it lived indoors for years.I think if someone knows what they are doing that these old caimens could be moved.You are correct tho some will most likely die as they are old already.Chris pipes he lives in florida now but when he was here always kept his animals in nice small outdoor ponds and that inspired me to do the same thing.He now has a nice [pond in florida pictures here in the gallery.I think every one can agree that in this day and age we need to try to move away from the cattle trough except winter time.To strive to make the best enclosure possible for our animals
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Archie Bottoms

I'm anxious to build some greenhouses for outdoor tropical stuff to modify outdoor winter time environment and assure winter survival. May even need substrate heating cable. It can be done. I'm sure.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Whoever wrote the original article in the first post, doesn't know a message from a massage. And in this country, Terry is innocent until proven guilty.