Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Not everyone in the Federal Government does what they do based up ideology. Thankfully!

Another branch of the Department of Interior blasts the garbage written by Rodda and Reed!

New Cold Study Discredits USGS Constrictor Report

The Wildlife Research Center of the US Department of Agriculture has recently released a peer reviewed scientific paper in Biological Invasions that casts serious doubt on wild claims made by the US Geological Survey that Burmese pythons are poised to spread out of South Florida. --Avery, M., Engeman, R., Keacher, K., Humphrey, J., Bruce, W., Mathies, T., & Mauldin, R. (2010). Cold weather and the potential range of invasive Burmese pythons, Biological Invasions, DOI: 10.1007/s10530-010-9761-4
In an in-house “Open Report” produced by the USGS (Giant Constrictors: Biological and Management Profiles and an Establishment Risk Assessment for Nine Large Species of Pythons, Anacondas, and the Boa Constrictor) authors Gordon Rodda and Robert Reed claim that the risk is high that Burmese pythons will quickly spread across the southern third of the United States; as far north as the Chesapeake Bay, Ohio Valley and San Francisco Bay. A panel of independent scientists has criticized the report as, “not a bona-fide ‘scientific’ paper that has gone through external peer review”. Scientists further characterized the report as “not suitable as the basis for legislative or regulatory policies, as its content is not based on best science practices”. USARK has filed a 36 page Request for Correction under the Information Quality Act demanding a response to 16 serious errors, inaccuracies and mischaracterizations within the report. The Constrictor Report is the sole justification for two federal bills and regulatory rule change that would add Burmese pythons and 8 other constrictors to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act.
Now in a paper entitled, Cold weather and the potential range of invasive Burmese pythons, published in a refereed scientific journal called Biological Invasions, scientists question the rash conclusions of Rodda & Reed. 7 of 9 Burmese pythons captured from Everglades National Park and held in outdoor enclosures with heated refugia died in the cold last winter at the USDA facility in Gainesville, FL. One of the authors of the new paper, Michael Avery says, "Our empirical observations cast doubt that Burmese pythons can become established and persist beyond the southern portion of the Florida peninsula."
Currently Burmese pythons are thought to be established in an area restricted to 3 counties of south Florida. Estimates on the die off after the cold winter range from 50%- 90%. Anecdotally no pythons have been found since mid March. This new peer reviewed paper is just one more independent piece of evidence debunking the extremely poor work fielded by USGS on the python invasion question. It begs question of ineptitude or unethical practices on the part of USGS producing questionable science with speculative conclusions on the taxpayer dime with little supporting data.

Click here to read press release in Conservation Maven:

Click here to read New USDA Paper:
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Alas, not conclusive.

LOL

Are you nut's? On second thought don't answer that. I LIVE AT THE EPICENTER OF THE PYTHON HABITAT. ALMOST ALL DIED FROM ONY 2 DAYS OF LOWS OF ONLY 31-32 DEGREES. One does not need to be a brain surgeon to know if most died here they couldn't live anywhere else. I KNEW THIS ALONG WITH ANYONE ELSE WHO EVER KEPT ONE. THE MORE NOVICE HERPERS KNEW THIS YET YOU SAY IT'S INCONCLUSIVE. Are you really that dumb or are you just a troll? Everytime you open your mouth you stick your foot in it. I hope you don't have athlete's foot from stalking the wily Box Turtles...LOL...You must actually think you're somehow smarter than anyone. A couple of weeks ago I gave you the info and invitation so that you could keep abreast and help but it's not likely you did. DID YOU JOIN USARK AS I SUGGESTED?
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I base my comment on the fact that the paper's authors themselves use language that indicates a measure of uncertainty.

To wit, they say that "our findings cast doubt" and not less ambiguous words such as, oh, say "Refute".

"We recognize that our pythons are not perfectly representative of free living pythons". Gee, that would indicate to anyone with average reading comprehension skills that the study was not a perfect comparison. I'm guessing that,if such language were used in a paper that refuted your own opinions, you'd be all over it like white on rice.

And of course who could overlook this statement: "Our results, while not definitive, support the view...etc., etc."

"Not definitive" is not definitive, now is it.

Steph, were you dropped on your head as a chld? IT IS CLEAR THAT THE PYTHONS HAVE A TOEHOLD HERE AND A LARGE PERCENTAGE WERE KILLED BY THE FREEZE THIS YEAR. This means that there is "0" possibility for them to survive further north. I'm in the process of writing a scientific paper now with 3 other authors and always in science that language will be put in because nothing in science is absolute. Some of our work involves molecular DNA studies on a complete series of specimens from each species we're revising and once we're finished and it is peer reviewed some of this same language will be included. The gist of the entire paper is that they couldn't exist any further north than they are now...thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thanks, Tom!
Any estimated date of completion?
Please thank your co-authors as well.
Aaron
-----
www.voodoomagicboas.com

The paper is NOT about Burmese but is a complete revision of a genus of Boa Constrictors [not the genus BOA]...thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

No, no accidents. Thanks for your concern.

This, by the way is the conclusion of the paper (a direct quote no less).

"Our results, while not definitive, support the view
that climatic variables affecting the extent of a
species’ range are likely defined by their extremes in
magnitude and duration, rather than by average
values. Our empirical observations on the impacts
of the cold weather event are consistent with results
from recent niche modeling efforts."

So, I disagree with your statement that "The gist of the entire paper is that they couldn't exist any further north than they are now..."

You are reading meaning in to this paper that simply isn't really there.

Your dead wrong. Do you not know that even in Orlando it gets as cold every year as it did here in January. Do you not understand this? Look at the temps even in N. Florida where it freezes many times EVERY YEAR. It seems everyone but you get it. I hope you're NOT involved in any real study of Box Turtles as your mind quite simply can't grasp ideas even when thrown at you in writing....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"because nothing in science is absolute". LOL...Nothing like helping to prove my point for me.

While you're at it, why don't you do a little reading on the subject of micro-climates and isolated populations, adaptation and....here it comes....evolution.

I have forgot more about those subjects than you will ever know Steph....LOL
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Maybe it's time for a refresher course, then. CEU's if you prefer.

NP
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I am still in the process of vetting the organization. Since I am much more interested in conservation issues, and USARK is more focused on the trade, I am not convinced that it's a good fit.

Tom, perhaps you should explain/reexplain that historically the conservation benefits of the "trade" have exceeded the conservation efforts of academia and authority exponentially. And in a far more cost effective and economically beneficial manner.

That the benefits commerce has bestowed to threatened and endangered species through education and ubiquity have done so much more to familiarize the public with the animals and mainstreaming a better understanding of their plight in the wild.

Let's face it. There those narrow minded individuals, hung up on some idealistic unrealistic mentality, that just refuse to listen to reason. Their minds are already made up. It is a waste of time and energy trying to convince them otherwise. Their preconceived notions trump logic. They are tone deaf to the facts.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I don't think anything is a good fit for you except perhaps PETA or HSUS which you likely are a member of already. It's mindboggling your on this forum. Fortunately you can't hide your true feelings so we understand you but you are totaly misjudging us.....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Wrong. Again. Not a PETA or HSUS member. Not even close. You are very prejudiced against anyone who doesn't agree with you completely, aren't you.

My only motive for being here is to understand why certain legislation may be important. Well, that and the entertainment value. It is interesting to see that so many of this forum's participants march in lock-step, and abhor anything even resembling a difference of opinion or point of view. In fact some of you behave like cornered animals when questioned: so much aggressive defensiveness on display in every thread. Attack anyone who may question you.

And the moderator seems to be largely absent. Certainly conspicuously silent on at least one subject.

This really isn't much of a discussion forum at all, unless of course one agrees with everyone else. More like a gathering of totalitarian yes-men armed with the internet equivalent of torches and pitchforks.

Ahhhh, the irony of it all.

"And the moderator seems to be largely absent. Certainly conspicuously silent on at least one subject."

On this we agree. You are still here.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Actually that's another falsehood. There are many on here I have agreed to disagree with. Your problem is you just don't get it. You seem to have an aversion to commercialization of herps which is completely wrong. Look up sustainable commercialization of wildlife. The croc folks have brought species back from the brink of extinction in this way. My main problem is that you have not a basic understanding of what most of us are even talking about yet you make bold amateur statements based on emotion and not facts or logic. When I was young I desired to learn and asked questions of people who knew more than I did because I thirsted for knowledge. You, on the other hand, think that you are learned and competent when in fact just by your posts its clear you're a rank beginner without even a baseline understanding of the issues. I gave you the path to learning and keeping abreast of what is happening and you turned it down even though in an ealier post you complained about not knowing. Your lack of knowledge is your own fault as your to busy talking to learn. Steph, I'm so glad I don't know you personally and that we're not related. I believe your parents are looking for you so by by.....long ago I coined the phrase 'CONSERVATION THRU COMMERCIALIZATION" AND IT'S STILL TRUE TODAY....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I have said virtually nothing about commercialization as a conservation tool. Zip. Zero. Zilch.

So, how exactly do you arrive at the conclusion that I oppose it?

Because I don't feel that it is a focus of USARK's? THEY don't even think its a focus of theirs, based on their mission statement and position which is posted on their website.

With Steph saying "well put" to comments like below -

"I can't help but lay the burden of responsibility on those few in the herp community who continue to breed and sell the "big 9". Sorry but those who sell and breed these snakes have made their bed now they are going to have to sleep in it. Personally I've been tired of defending the "big 9" keepers for a long time now."

That pretty much seals where she stands...

The link where that came from -
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1780453,1793997

Tom, that makes you in large part responsible for this stuff, right? Didn't you introduce morphs for the most part to the Burmese Pythons? See, by that logic, apparently because we keep "the big 9" its clearly our fault that there are feral animals or nincompoops let their young children be in situations where they are "killed" by their snakes. I mean, how can we continue to make poor folks like Vichris & Steph keep defending us...

I am not even that surprised that despite all her "conservation is so important" talk - she still lets her cats out to roam and kill local indigenous wildlife, and has participated in the abysmal practice of TNR (Trap neuter and release - a crummy way to deal with feral cats and vile feral cat colonies - it should be trap, neuter, and never return to the wild even if it means euthanasia)
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1780453,1795341
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1801926,1802166

I have bumped into Stephs type many times. She is simply on here to troll. Clearly, what she does with herps is only if every for the better good of all the world, and she is a selfless advocate protecting the poor turtles! (At least in her head)

I don't believe for a second that she has any interest in people continuing to keeping their snakes, or more so, folks individual rights to pursue happiness and to do that by being able to keep their animals of choice.

I bump into your type online all the time....you get REALLY defensive about your hobby, which you probably took up just to be cool and different.

BTW, that TNR program I was involved in actually eventually successfully housed all of the cats: the adults became much more sociable once they were neutered and back on their own turf for a while. I have some of them here. They all had 'soft landings'.

If you feel so strongly about it, why not start your own program and do it the way you think it should be done? Or do you prefer to just hang out and criticize people like me who do make an effort, as imperfect as that effort may be?

No matter why I took up the hobby, I see absolutely every reason to be defensive about it in light of the nasty turn this country has taken. I have wronged no environment that I know of and am responsible with my animals, give them high quality husbandry, and involved in educational outreach, and yet because of all these asinine laws that may come into place, I have to wonder if I will still be able to take my animals to my vet.

I am glad the TNR housed all the cats. I did used to live trap the cats where I lived and if they were sans tags and acted feral or wild, I whisked them off to the pound. Thankfully where I live now we don't have a feral cat problem.

"Or do you prefer to just hang out and criticize people like me who do make an effort, as imperfect as that effort may be?"

Do you really think you are the only one who "makes and effort" ? I mean, for you to be giving me that "bit of advice" seems pretty funny, considering how many of the posts on this forum are mine and how many of them belong to you...

that I'm the only one...but you do seem to be FAR more critical of me than I am of you. You have been openly critical of what you assume to be my *actions*...I'm more critical of the *attitudes* on display here.

That's great that you worked with feral cats.

Several years ago some feral cats invaded my property and chased a pair of Gopher tortoises living here away. I soon discovered afterwards that you can take the head clean off a feral cat with a .410 slug. It really amazed me that such a small shotgun could do that. I no longer have a problem with feral cats hassling wildlife on my property nor my small livestock which they also hassled and thus gave me a legal green light to "work with feral cats.".

"but you do seem to be FAR more critical of me than I am of you. You have been openly critical of what you assume to be my *actions*...I'm more critical of the *attitudes* on display here."

You are correct, and it may well be the case that I have been more critical of you then you have been of me, probably in large part to the fact that you have come here with what seems to be a "bone to pick" with many of the people and ideas presented, and, at least it appears to me that you think we are somehow missing "the big picture", but have not identified what the big picture is...

I am kind of getting the feeling that you think that the big picture is like the quote said - these restrictive laws are our "fault" because we have not been more restrictive with our animals, so, correct me if I am wrong.

By we, I mean the collective "we" -> being the we that includes big snake breeders & keepers, or at least the folks who support the legal keeping, breeding, and selling of these big snakes) have given no good "alternatives" to the ban as a means of "control" to the feral "problem", yet you have not been able to give solid evidence that there really is a serious problem outside of a very tiny part of the USA (South Florida), where (and I think I can speak for the collective "we" here) the animals that are feral should be diligently perused and destroyed or removed, and the ROC laws were a pretty good idea -> until they squashed that.

Sure, there are scuzzy big snake keepers, and slimy breeders out to make a buck who will sell to any kid, and rotten vendors just the same...but where ever one has a freedom, there are people like that who will abuse it. Its part of the whole freedom thing. Do we ban dog ownership because of dog fights and maulings? Those people who abuse the situation - the hoarding folks who keep animals in squalor, torture animals or let their animals harm family members & the folks who would let these animals go outside are the ones who need to be gone after, and "punished" for the misdeeds.

When specifically questioned about what exactly your plan would be, it was not really much different from the things we (I am referring to the collective we again, including USARK) had been over, and really have "in the works". Self policing only goes so far. Responsibility is a very personal requirement - or at least it should be!

You don't, at least so it appears to me from what you post, seem to believe that there is a solidified, agenda of people, including the media & AR groups who are pushing hard against us (the collective "big snake" we again, but also on exotic owners in general) to restrict (or more to the point -> end) our rights and prevent us from keeping and breeding these animals. These folks want us gone, and are working VERY hard to achieve those ends. I absolutely do believe this is the case, and I find it terrifying that they are having so much sucsess -> even managing to "take over" a TV channel (Animal Planet) to use as a mouthpiece to "Get the word out" about the sickness that would make people exotic animal keepers.

The AR push in this country coupled with the general ignorance about the animals we keep & our hobby is really pulling us under. The bad cases HURT. Yes. But its not just a few bad cases that fuels this - its the same misinformation made into monster proportions and then spoon fed to an ignorant public willing to swallow whatever comes their way. There is no other reason that this would get so much attention when you really look at the statistics & so forth about the true "dangers" posed by our charges.

Turtles are not under fire right now. Once they get the "fringe" folks, the ones with tigers, wallaby's, burms and monitors, then they will refocus on going after those...

The big cat and primate folks have been saying for years now - they are getting us, they are going to come after you guys (reptile keepers) next...and so they do.

After the big 9 get banned, it will be the medium 12 that come under fire, or something like that, and then so on down the list...

Ravenspirit, I agree with all you said there except the turtle people or at least the box turtle people are under fire. They are just getting it in a different way. I know people that used to keep box turtles in GA before the laws there were passed. They lost it all. Many breeders in other States have lost out too and they are still trying to push even more laws through. There is little resistance against the laws being put through on turtles. They just can't make a PR campaign out of turtles that would scare the public so they went with it in a different style. They usually convince people they have to save the box turtles by passing these laws.
In the end the laws only keep people from keeping and breeding them but do absolutely nothing to save habitat or manage them in the wild in any way. So in the end they continue to decline and now there are hardly any breeders left.
The box turtle breeders in TX were some of the first to go under the bus.
-----
Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

In Pennsylvania - They never let you breed the Boxies here, but the Box turtles, Spotted Turtles & Wood Turtles were all species you could posses 2 of. A few years ago Chris Urban at the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission along with others made it so you couldn't keep any of them. They did grandfather some people with permits, but absolutely NO breeding of your animals! If you did have 2, and they reproduced, I was told you would be required to destroy the eggs - That makes a lot of sense, doesn't it!

I was even told they were initially trying to extend the reach of the law so it made it so even folks with subspecies of Box Turtles (along with other natives) couldn't keep and breed the animals. So not only no Easterns because they are native, but no Florida, 3 Toes, or Gulf Coasts either. Thankfully that is not the case.

At the same time, roads continue to go in, along with strip malls and housing developments, and the people who would poach these animals I am sure are not stopped by these laws...Poaching is no less or more illegal then it was before they told us we are no longer allowed to keep a Box Turtle!

Same sort of thing here in fl. you are allowed 2 per person in your house hold of any subspecies of T. carolina. They don't come out and tell you that breeding is prohibited but they discourage it. They won't tell you to destroy the eggs they just fumble around the breeding/egg question and tell you to get rid of the babies really fast. You are not allowed to sell the babies however. It kind of annoys me sometimes to see adds from states like california where they are selling baby fl. box turtles where it is legal and yet here in Fl. our govt. won't allow us to utilize our own resources. btw I don't have a problem with people in California selling them (more power to em.) it just annoys me that we can't here and yet we are expected to shell out our hard earned money to support the megalomaniacs who come up with these rules.

Ravenspirit - I agree with your points there. I know all too well how most of the States laws on Box turtles are not good ones.
One more point I may add though is that it is funny that they complain about non native herps getting let loose while they make it illegal to keep and breed the ones that are native.
Not only is not letting people in your State keep and breed those turtles a conservation of species measure, but it is also a good thing for people to get to breed indigenous herps.
Now I am not saying that responsible keepers should not be able to keep non indigenous herps. I am just saying what kind of argument do they really have to make people not make more of something that is declining and not even a non indigenous threat in any way?
One more good example of why the government doesn't deserve more control. When you put all of the eggs in one basket and then hand that basket to an idiot it's not going to end well.
-----
Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

I have always wondered the same about the native/exotic issue. Here in Fl. their is strong resistance to initiating a plan similar to the one in California for the adoption of gopher tortoises.
People still want tortoises so now what you have is people buying lots of spur thigh tortoises.. I am really surprised we haven't seen a feral population of those here in the state.
I have no problem with spur thigh's but I think a program encouraging people to possibly adopt displaced native tortoises which often times end up buried alive is a good alternative to buying something that gets the size of and end table and digs craters big enough to lose small children in. At least if a gopher tortoise gets released or escapes due to someone being ill prepared for it, it belongs here.

YES! Now a Catch 22...thanks to the Law of unintended consequences...

When the States shut down the ability to collect, breed, maintain local species they opened the door for Frankenstein hybrids, man-made morphs, and non-native exotics. And now they are unhappy about them in the marketplace.

All a result of their idealistic wrong thinking, intellectual sloth, and naiveté...good intentions don't always have the desired consequences.

Government doesn't have all the answers and Government shouldn't be expected to solve all our problems.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

these restrictive laws are our "fault" because we have not been more restrictive with our animals, so, correct me if I am wrong.

You something Ravenspirit. That statement reminds me of the people who blame women for rape because they were dressed provocatively. It would be interesting to know if staph has this same attitude towards rape victims.
The parallel between the two scenarios is quite obvious to me.

"That statement reminds me of the people who blame women for rape because they were dressed provocatively. It would be interesting to know if staph has this same attitude towards rape victims.
The parallel between the two scenarios is quite obvious to me."

The parallel is obvious to me as well.

I wonder how many baby box turtles those released cats eat. I know of one of these colonies in the Orlando area near UCF where they actually feed the cats as well. It's amazing how many raccoons you see eating along side these cats obviously decreasing their mortality as well. The area where this colony is SHOULD be prime box turtle habitat. I'll bet you can find adults but babies are most likely non-existent.

Actually the raccoons will eat the adult box turtles too. I have seen this in the wild for myself. They sometimes do not kill them right away and leave them with a leg or two missing.
Raccoons are one of the main reasons for box turtle decline. We have removed larger predators and we do not hunt them for fur as much these days. The Native Americans hunted them more often but we have removed the Native People from most of the US. Top this off with fire ants in the South and road kills, then finally development and decline is a sure thing. Instead of seeing the good in captive breeding them they want to make it against the law to keep them. Well the captive breeders are not the problem here.
I have a trash bag full of shells collected at one small site that were taken by raccoons.
They should be encouraging hunting raccoons instead of feeding them.
-----
Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

I did because that's your excuse for not joining USARK unless of course the $25 per year exceeds your allowance....LOL
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

steph
I think you have a narow view of what conservation is. Most people in the pet trade, and zoos for that matter don't belive that the animals they are raising are going to be used to restore a wild population. Most animals that go extinct do so because of habitat distruction and usualy there is no wild to release them into. The conservation that the pet trade offers is captive breeding to reduce or eliminate demands on wild populations. People don't need to collect king snakes or corn snakes in any numbers anymore because you can get better quality CB animals for the same or even less money. It is the same with many reptiles. People breeding reptiles add to an evergrowing knowledge of care and breeding that may be even more important in the future. Some of the animals we keep regularly now were almost impossible to keep alive in zoos or private collection 30 years ago. Kids growing up with an animal grow up and want to conserve nature, become breeders, biologists, zoo keepers etc....
If to many restrictions are put on an industry it will fall and much of the knoledge we have now and will add to in the future will be lost. If keeping reptiles forces everyone to pay high permit fees, meet excessily high standards of care, and force people to give up constitutionaly guaranted rights less people will want the hasstle. With the possibility of global warming even in hundreds of years swallowing up islands and costal habbitat with thousands or reptile species at risk we need more knowledge and experience than ever and zoos will not be able to do it all and maby the relationship that was destroyed by CITIES and the ESA, by putting us on one side of it and them on the other, will be repaired and once agian will be on the same team.
If the reptile industry is destroyed today there will not be the people with the experience to conserve species a hundred years from now and maybe no one will care because they hate snakes and they have only ever seen 3 or 4 lizards at the zoo. Out of site out of mind.
Conservation has many facets!!
Rob

Hey steph I can't believe you believe in evolution, based on your standards of proof it is a ways away rember it is only a theory and there is always new info added. Oh ya and gravity is a theory too.

Also the population of berms is an isolated population it has impassable water on on 3 sides and a wall of cold on the 4th.

Adaption to snow/cold is a very hard one for reptiles and especialy an animal that has lived for a very long time in the tropics. Maby you are right tho maby it will adapt by growing fur or wings and fly south for the winter

And mico climates what are you kidding??? The only mico climates they can survive in are man made ones and that is not really an issue bacause it will not provide a sustainable population of them. They can survive on the moon if they are in a micro climate of a space station.
Rob

Since I am obviously as dumb as everyone else on here except staph perhaps someone could enlighten me on this. Aren't burmese pythons (or are they Myanmar pythons these days???) basically a species of mainland Asia? Doesn't it get cold north of their range? I seem to recall that it gets pretty cold in North Vietnam. If that is the case why haven't they moved northward and become more cold tolerant in Asia? What does left over agent orange keep them from evolving? Perhaps the turkey point nuclear plant leaks and it speeds up their evolution here. I don't know. I feel so stupid for not knowing. Please enlighten us Staph. I hate being such a moron.

P.S. while you are at it please tell me why this cold weather that doesn't whack Burmese pythons, totally whacked my Kiak trees (malay name no english transltion...most likely microcos genus.) that I had outside under some serious protective cover and has done so now 2 years in a row. This species of plant occurs naturally on the northern border of border of Thailand and Malaysia which I THINK is within the range of P. m. bivitattus.

You are wrong: evolution is FACT...."survival of the fittest" is a theory.

BTW... I don't 'believe in' evolution in the intransitive sense, but rather I do 'believe' the overwhelming evidence in the transitive sense.

Cheers.

Actually StephF, Evolution is both fact and theory. So no bonus points for you.
BTW natural selection is what you meant to say as "survival of the fittest" does not really describe the process properly.
Process. Not a theory.
-----
1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

Kachunga - Nice pic of an eastern hog. Do you know the locality that pic was taken? There are some orange ones here in TX but also I have seen them from SC. You can send me an email to talk more on this.
-----
Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Oh sorry steph you were refering to the general definition of evolution which is basicly change and you are right that part fact.
I thought with your sacrcastic build up and throwing down evolution with such emphasis you were refering to the scientific principals of evolution which is a thoery. I guess you did not need to include adaption in your build up since that is the part of evolution that is fact.
Rob

Go you try to give guitar lessons to Yngwie Malmsteen in your spare time?

She won't get it...LOL but it is funny
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I have 3 fl. box turtles that are with my red foot tortoise colony. I have kept box turtles for years and in fact one of the 3 I have now, I have had since somewhere around 1998. I am well aware of the cold temps they can handle. Yet I brought them in with the rest of the gang during that cold snap this last winter. From my experience if I had not they most likely would have gotten whacked by the cold.
I am about 40 miles north of Orlando and every year we get a few nights in the mid to upper 20's here. I have become quite good at knowing what animals will and won't take the cold and how much they can actually take.
I am amazed at all this research being done to determine what in Tom's words even a novice should know which is that burms cannot survive this far north. They wouldn't even make it in Orlando where you have a heat sink factor with all of the concrete and asphalt which makes it warmer than the surrounding rural areas.
You don't even get adult green iguanas living year round in the Orlando area and they are one of the most cold tolerant tropical reptile I can think of and there are plenty of green iguanas that get loose in the orlando area.
The sad thing is there are many many other things our tax money could be better spent on. I just read that one of the school districs on the coast is cutting their sports programs for 9th graders due to budget restraints. I personally think education is more important than answering a question we already know the answer to. I'm sure better oversight of offshore oil wells is a better use of the USDI's assets as well. I wonder how many sea turtles and Manatees will be dying in the coming months because Ken Salazar was more worried about giant snakes than safety issues on oil rigs in the gulf.

"I'm sure better oversight of offshore oil wells is a better use of the USDI's assets as well. I wonder how many sea turtles and Manatees will be dying in the coming months because Ken Salazar was more worried about giant snakes than safety issues on oil rigs in the gulf."

I agree. While Ken Salazar did not create the lax and cozy regulatory environment in the Minerals Management Service, Department of the Interior and the USGS, he was guilty of a lack of political courage and conviction by going after the easy pickings of that low hanging fruit, the Python issue.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I was thinking the same thing about the Iguanas. Not to mention that the range they say that the Burmese will invade is not even covered by the American Alligator. Also thank god for the Panama Canal or the U.S. would of been invaded by the boas already. lol.

They naturally occur about 100 to 150 miles south of Brownsville Tx. in Mexico. From what I have seen there seems to be a type of Boa that occurs in the Sonoran desert basically west of South Texas. The pictures I have seen make it look like a northern version of an Argentine Boa (in looks anyway not taxonomically.) really cool looking. Neither of those has crossed the border yet.

Maybe they haven't got passports yet.

Florida box turtles are pretty cold adapted because they are a hybrid byproduct from the last Glacial Maximum. T. putnami was pushed down into Florida and hybridized with another type of eastern box turtles and left the Florida and gulf coast box turtle in it's place. So they would not have anything to do with the cold tolerance of pythons.
-----
Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

My point was that given how cold it was I brought them inside rather leave them out I most likely would have lost some or all of them had I not. I am well aware of their cold tolerance I have actually seen them out and about when temps were still in the upper 30's F in the morning (on there way up for the day of course.). The point is if it is too cold for box turtles it is WAY too cold for burms. Another factor here in fl. that no one considers in the winter is the lack of humidity. It is a lot drier than most people realize here in fl. when it isn't raining and come winter time the cold fronts really dry it out.
If you want to give a burm a really bad respiratory infection don't bother with the heat take away their humidity. Case in point is they just aren't going to live outside of that big swamp south of us where they barely hang on as it is.
I guess I'm a lttle behind on box turtle taxonomy btw. I am familiar with the 4 subspecies of T. carolina here in the U.S.(carolina,bauri,triunguis,and whatever the gulf coast is as I don't recall .) and if I remember correctly there are a handful more in Mexico as well as T cohuilla, and then I am familiar with the 2 subspecies of T. ornata but I am unsure about T. putnami, is that a new one or something I over looked

Calparsoni, I did not mean my post as an argument. But I should have made it more clear that I was really making the same point. If it is too cold for a box turtle then it is way too cold for a python.
-----
Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

I didn't think you were I was just clarifying my point.

It's just a small item on top of a mountain of evidence, but I also think it's worth mentioning that without further details about the few monitored pythons that "survived", one has to keep open the possibility that these survivors would have died also had they been left alone. Was it left alone, or was the sole survivor (of the group of 10) taken in from the wild as soon as it was found? Was it sick when it was found? Was it treated for an RI?

it was 7 of 9 that died. the two that survived were males that never left the security of their heated refuge. the paper is very well done and transparent.
-----
USARK

I read the paper. Wasn't there another set of chipped pythons, though, where 9 of 10 died? That's what I was referring to.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/03/23/1544261/glades-python-deaths-fuel-debate.html

ed that is the UF study of radio tracked pythons in ENP. that study has not been published yet.
-----
USARK

>>ed that is the UF study of radio tracked pythons in ENP. that study has not been published yet.
>>-----
>>USARK
>>
>>

Thanks. So thus far, 16 of 19 monitored pythons have died after the cold snap. And the 9 in the Gainesville experiment were, as stated in the study, living in somewhat artificial conditions that were more conducive to the pythons surviving the cold.

Not a whole lot of data points to make a firm conclusion, but for grins that would seem to be at best a 20% survival rate. And according to what I read, NONE of the licensed hunters have found ANY pythons since the cold snap. And people like Tom C. haven't found any, which might not be publishable in a scientific journal, but I don't think it's reasonable to ignore his input.

So where the heck are the researchers finding all these pythons that are supposedly still out there???? If they know where the pythons are, why not unleash the licensed hunters in those areas?
It all just doesn't add up. (Not accusing anyone of anything or specifically directing those at anyone in particular, I'm just asking the questions for further discussion.)

Thanks,
Ed

Four things come to mind, to consider with the surviving Python populations:

1) Was there an identifiable artificially manipulated man made microhabitat that possibly contributed to survival, as in a Power Plant, for example? If so, measures should be taken to ensure containment and/or elimination of any new pioneer colonies.

2) Sex and size may be a large factor in survival. There may be a correlation as to greater survivability among smaller snakes and male snakes. With few or no female survivors, there can be no long term continuation of the population.

3) Also, with diminished population densities, snakes will require larger territorial ranges for successful breeding and proliferation. Therefore, successful breeding outcomes should statistically be at a lower percentage of total population, at least in the near term.

4) However remote, there is the chance fecundity and fertility may be at a lower rate, as well. Could be higher, of course.

jsc

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It is my opinion and personal observation that male Boas and Pythons are more cold tolerant than female Boas and Pythons. I believe this is a reproductive adaptation designed to increase male fertility. So, it does not surprise me that mostly males survived the cold.

I agree. My observations here this spring seem to agree over a broad range of Herps. First see the females warming up, feeding, giving off Pheromones. Then the males become active chasing the females. They don't really do much feeding until the mating urge subsides with higher temps.

Most reptiles are habitat-ually sexually dimorphic eco-niche-wise creatures in my opinion.

An example would be the Big-headed Graptemys species. The smaller males are more inclined to be surface feeding insectivores and the females more inclined to be bottom feeding Mollusk/Crustacean feeders. Like two separate non-competing species occupying the same macro habitat/range.

Just my thoughts.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

my understanding is that it has been peer reviewed and accepted for publication pending some minor revisions.
-----
USARK