Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a Thayeri mix; possibly some Honduran milk snake in the mix. he is a great snake, and I am going to be looking for a suitable mate for him. I may consider a milk snake but am curious as to what sort of personality milk snakes generally have. Are they more nervous or flighty than king snakes, for example.

From what I've had over the years I can honestly say that personality really varies, even in the same ssp.

For example, I have a massive male VP Sinaloan - he's curious, aware, and quite spastic. Any loud noise causes him to thrash about like he's having a seizure. He's not a huge fan of being held or touched either, but he's never attempted to bite. However, his mate is the calmest Sinaloan I've owned since the 90's.

I also have a 1.2 trio of albino Sinaloan/Nelsons that are more laid back than a few of my corn snakes.

I'm sure if you buy a female from a reputable breeder, like Brian Barczyk of BHB Reptiles (where I got two of my ultra calm milks), they should be able to provide you with information on each particular animal - including personality traits.

Good luck.

I have some sinaloans, and Nelsons and the babies can be flighty but they settle down pretty good as they get older. Being that you have a VP maybe there is something else in the mix? Not really sure so it's just a possibility. Hondurans are what I usually think of when I hear VP, and they have a varied personality from one individual to the next. Also as it has been brought up here before, a lot depends on the parents. Many traits are passed along to the offspring not only color and pattern.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

What does VP mean?

from robert seib stock

Yes, milks are typically more nervous than kingsnakes. However, despite their being so, they do just as well in captivity.
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Mark

Why would you want to make more junk from that hybrid?

Check out the hybrid forum if you have to, but hybrids suck in my opinion.

Sorry,

-Dell

Where ya been?

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"Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after."

Henry David Thoreau

Doug L

Yo Doug, I've been work, work, working. You know how it can go sometimes.

Great photo you posted, what a nice looking animal.

-Dell

I don't see my snake as junk; that is a bit harsh. Maybe mutt is a gentler term. Whatever, he has some good qualities but I may not breed him to any milks as he already has a tendency to be milk snake in his temperament, and I don't want to create more snakes that are nervous or flighty. He is calm with me; handled gently he does very well. This is a reluctant decision, as the milk snakes are beautiful! But temperament matters, too. Should I get any offspring they will not be billed as pure anything, or misrepresented in any way as to their lineage. Normally I would not be interested in a hybrid, but he is so pretty and a big beefy loves to eat fellow as well, it just seemed like an interesting possibility.

Mutt would be a gentler term, and that's what it is a mutt.
I may have come off harsh, but I have to admit I get tired of people that don't give a second thought to posting a hybrid on this forum where most of us work hard to keep our lines as pure to species/subspecies as we can.
I thought Tim Spuckler put it best and will post what he said again.

There is no suitable mate for that snake. It's a hybrid and you don't even know what snakes went into making it. The idea of "honest representation of the offspring" is hilarious. No one can honesty tell you what the components of that snake are -- therefore you cannot accurately ever know what it's offspring are.

There are plenty of pure thayeri and pure Hondurans that are more attractive than that snake.

Sorry to pop off on you, but you know it is a public forum and these things happen. Keep following this forum and you'll learn a lot about milksnakes.

-Dell

that pale doesn't have some hondurensis in it? LOL... what a cool head pattern tho. Kinda reminds me of the 'raccoon' look some of the nicer vp hypo hondurans can have. Also as an immediate qualifier this is in no way a racist commentary!!! To play devil's advocate though -- sometimes a hybrid can end up in a proper home. Periodically, some people do just want a 'nifty' pet snake w/o intention of re-interjecting those muddied genes back into play. Regardless, it will continue to happen. Your disdain for the concept of hybrids may be out of place for some who do not know the exacting efforts you and MANY others have put forth to maintain both a reputation in the industry and the integrity of a non-morph locale specimen of a naturally beautiful snake. All that being said, personal aesthetic is what drives us here... people will always like what they like.

Chris

Hey Chris,
Well I knew this thread would start to implode if I wasn't more diplomatic about hybrids and why I/we don't like them.
I really didn't have the energy at the time to explain in print form why a person shouldn't make more hybrids, and opted to slash and burn instead.
I should have just said: Hey dude, your in the wrong forum check out the hybrid forum.

And just so you know Chris.
sometimes a hybrid can end up in a proper home. Periodically, some people do just want a 'nifty' pet snake w/o intention of re-interjecting those muddied genes back into play.

I know, I know, and I'm okay w/ that.

Regardless, it will continue to happen.

I know, I know, and it will always bother me to some degree.

personal aesthetic is what drives us here... people will always like what they like.

Yeah, yeah, I know. But really man, hybrids are for people that don't understand or care to learn respect for the boundaries of how species and subspecies came to be, in my opinion. And I guess if I really wanted to tic a few folks off I'd go post this opinion on the hybrid forum, but I'v never done that because I do respect their right to choose what they want to keep and breed, but please could they stop posting hybrids in the Milk snake forum.

What say you to that, Chris my man.

-Dell

your snake is not junk or a mutt, folks who spew such drivel shouldnt be allowed to own snakes, and 9outta10 times have an agenda.
there are folks w/small tiny lil minds that are SO smart they dumb. they know everything and if you ask them they will tell you so without hesitation, i would simply say consider the source.
as for breeding that snake since you dont know the lineage i would breed it with a getula as oppssed to a milk but really DO WHAT YOU LIKE! if you decide on milk, hondos are spazz, nelson/sinaloan are calm as corns.
good luck and pay no attention to the snake nazi's.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

There is no suitable mate for that snake. It's a hybrid and you don't even know what snakes went into making it. The idea of "honest representation of the offspring" is hilarious. No one can honesty tell you what the components of that snake are -- therefore you cannot accurately ever know what it's offspring are.

There are plenty of pure thayeri and pure Hondurans that are more attractive than that snake.

Tim

Cool looking snake!! But, beware of the people on here that will blast you for having a hybrid. I often think these are the same people that are against Caucasians and Negroids from breeding as well.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

Really Scott, you'er comparing a person that doesn't like snake hybrids to a racist! WTF kind of thinking is that? Talk about harsh.

Let me be as clear as I can. It is not the same thing, not even close.

So, purebred snakes YES, purebred people NO...I got it

Really, I just think that people who cant see the beauty in some Hybrids, be they Dogs or Snakes or People, are a bit close minded.

Just my opinion, we can have opinions on here still, right?
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

Opinions are cool, but abject disregard for elementary principles of science should not be tolerated and will undoubtedly be rebuked harshly when presented with an arrogant tone of authority.

Case in point, people of different races are still the same species (Homo sapiens). Crosses between dog breeds are still crosses between the same species (Canis l. familiaris).

When you cross snakes from two separate species lineages, however, you have created -- not a "mutt" or a "mix" or a "cross" -- but a hybrid. And in doing so you violate an implicit ecological responsibility you assume when you bring a natural lineage into your collection.
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http://www.waffahousereptiles.com

The racist poster can go play with a monkey, and that would be the appropriate comparison....though admittedly in bad taste....at least for the unfortunate monkey.

>>>Really, I just think that people who cant see the beauty in some Hybrids, be they Dogs or Snakes or People, are a bit close minded.

AMEN could not have said it better myself.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Do we need a snake "czar" ...hey VOTE ME! ...considering how many ignorant breeders there are crossing everything possible like some mad scientist and think that their "mutts" are destined for some kids aquarium but all to often are resold to another novice whom claims it is a pure whatever. The snake pet trade is booming and It's already compleatly out of hand and the novices way out number the pros by far so in that sense the pet trade seems doomed if something is not done soon. all I can say is grow up, wise up, and pay attention to the few pros here that show their integrity by standing up for a noble cause, breeding albinos and hybrids is far from nobel, agreed? ...humans make their own choice to breed with another race and we now know that it causes weightgain and allergy problems due to a diets that are outside of their or even their offspring's new unknown culture background, you hybrid fans give the snake no choice, I think it's sad that we have to even state something that seems to sooooooo blatantly obvious...

close minded! hybrid/albino breeders are like children that want to eat ice cream for dinner, and the pros here are like the parent that knows better, is the parent close minded or generally concerned with the well being of the DUMB kid?

Obviously different people will like different things. Honest people will be honest and hopefully rewarded for it. Its not perfect, and we are not recreating a wild animal...we are domesticating them. There is plenty of room for everyone, but it makes for a more productive forum if those that want to do these things get directed to post in their own forum. It keeps everything civil and let them figure out what they want in a hybrid. Truth is, if they want "different" then hybrid x hybrid will be the best way to go. They can continue to refine "new stuff" and it will get further and further from "pure" looking stuff. Remember, they dont want to make stuff "pure", its those of us that want to keep stuff "pure" that have to be equally vigilant.

snake nazis run together. let me address your post...

>>>considering how many ignorant breeders there are crossing everything possible like some mad scientist and think that their "mutts" are destined for some kids aquarium but all to often are resold to another novice whom claims it is a pure whatever.

> and???

>>>The snake pet trade is booming and It's already compleatly out of hand and the novices way out number the pros by far so in that sense the pet trade seems doomed if something is not done soon.

>doomed? wtf, pros and novices what a putz. what constitutes a pro? or novice? ive been keeping and breeding snakes for 30years and "the trade" has benefitted from hybrids BIGTIME, so not making much sense there.

>>>all I can say is grow up, wise up, and pay attention to the few pros here that show their integrity by standing up for a noble cause, breeding albinos and hybrids is far from nobel, agreed?

>nobility now?!?! are you high?

>>>...humans make their own choice to breed with another race and we now know that it causes weightgain and allergy problems due to a diets that are outside of their or even their offspring's new unknown culture background,

> NAZI

>>>you hybrid fans give the snake no choice, I think it's sad that we have to even state something that seems to sooooooo blatantly obvious...

>LIKE ANY snake bred in captivity is given a choice!!! geez talk about blatantly obvious get a clue.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

all of you comparisons are way off base, in your excitement you for got to make any sence. 30 years and you have not learned a thing...no snakes have a choice? thats your come back, grow up...

>>>all of you comparisons are way off base>>>

dude your the one speaking of nobility, and pro's and such yet im off base?
like all the nazi's ... WEAK!

,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Come on thomas! "pros" in the sense of experience/knowledge, real pros dont cross species. ..."nobel" in sense of integrity, not our right to the throne, a nobel person tends to make wise, responsable decisions as if they were a leader, but it's a free country and you can do what you want but breeding albino and hybrids is clearly irresponsible, you can argue till your blue in the face, but I think deep down you know it, you're just being spiteful because you are the target.

lets break down your post...

>>>Come on thomas! "pros" in the sense of experience/knowledge, real pros dont cross species.

>really? so a pro is someone/anyone with experience/knowledge huh? and pros dont cross sp. ROFLMFAO! that is about as WEAK as it gets right there, i'll say it again GET A CLUE!.

>>>..."nobel" in sense of integrity, not our right to the throne, a nobel person tends to make wise, responsable decisions as if they were a leader,

>nobility?leader? are you serious??? and this pertains to producing captive born snakes hybrid or otherwise, how exactly???

>>>but it's a free country and you can do what you want but breeding albino and hybrids is clearly irresponsible, you can argue till your blue in the face, but I think deep down you know it,

>gee thanks for stating your opinion, it all makes sense now.

>>>you're just being spiteful because you are the target.

>spiteful?target? HAHAHAHA whatever jo. its not spite jo its HATE and PITY. i HATE stupidity and i PITY ignorance if it makes me a target, then sobeit.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I dont think you do hate stupidity or ignorance, you actually condone it according to your comments, pros are leaders, the folks with the skills you are the opponent, the mad scientist. I'm impressed that you put so much effort in your mission to prove me wrong but your getting nowhere fast, I'm guessing your offended, so be it, I'm done trying to make sense to a brick.

>>>pros are leaders, the folks with the skills you are the opponent, the mad scientist.

>OIC what a joke, ahwell ignorance is bliss i suppose.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I'm glad you finally got it, BTW did you eat any paint chips when you were a kid?

I really think it was measured and appropriate. But you lose the arguement when you get in these contests, you get personal. You gotta know when to rest on your laurels....and maybe I do sometimes as well,lol.

Any candidate for "Snake Czar" will have to be able to spell, but thanks for your enthusiasm.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

I have not seen a hybrid I want or think looks good. I would love to know how hybrids have helped the reptile trade. Seems to me the people purposely breeding hybrids are just out take make a buck and could care less about the animal. They think if they make something bizarre and colorful they will sell better. Screw the long term effects of throwing hybrids out there lets make some money! Smart. Then you get on a dedicated milksnake forum full of people who like pure milks and get offended they don't like your mutts. haha. If you don't want to be critized keep them on the hybrid forum. Just my opinion and I'm sure many others here.

Chris

dudes....ehhh.....just WOW....

Well, thats the same with people making "Extreme's" and VP animals, right? its just to make more money from the offspring. Are these found in nature? A Snow Honduran? Lavender Kings? The list goes on...
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

it's NOT quite the same...........don't mix apples with oranges.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Selective breeding for pattern/color is not the same as crossing a species or createing designer albino morphs, I'm not being offensive but this is the moot point I was making the other day, nobody keeps track of these hybrids, years down the road get sold as an imposter sp. ...and the albino fad is destroying the gene pool. I'm convinced that many here think of albinos as just a more colorful phase of normal.

Most here like albinos because 1-they are different looking which leads to 2--most have seen the $$ to be made from them. If we are breeding anyways why NOT breed something that can pay the bills? And once you accept that its easier to justify other "slips". Bottom line, buy from a well known breeder to avoid problems later.

>>Selective breeding for pattern/color is not the same as crossing a species or createing designer albino morphs, I'm not being offensive but this is the moot point I was making the other day, nobody keeps track of these hybrids, years down the road get sold as an imposter sp. ...and the albino fad is destroying the gene pool. I'm convinced that many here think of albinos as just a more colorful phase of normal.
>>

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I have one question for you. If in removing the 30-40 (or whatever number it is) SKs each year you happen to stumble upon an albino, what would you do with that specimen? Destroy it so as not to destroy the gene pool?
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Joe

Funny you should ask that because I stated in a post here a few months back that I would relocate it so nobody else finds it and makes an attempt to sell it to the trade. I did hear of a guy here in sarasota named allen something that found one and sold it for four grand. ...I like the leucistic snakes, too bad their not as common as the albinos. If I find one you'all will know first...

You know Joe back in the day we WOULD have chopped the heads off of any weak gene specimens hatched, now we promote it? I know a guy that says he witnessed several boas meet the merchant's machett at docks back in the 60s, simply kicked off the dock into the gulf of mexico...

>>You know Joe back in the day we WOULD have chopped the heads off of any weak gene specimens hatched, now we promote it? I know a guy that says he witnessed several boas meet the merchant's machett at docks back in the 60s, simply kicked off the dock into the gulf of mexico...

Very interesting viewpoint. Have you ("WE" ) actually ever chopped the head off of an albino or other "weak gene" specimen?

These "several boas" that your guy witnessed being masacred were albinos???

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Joe

He would rather send the "Weak Gene" specimens to the gas chamber so they cant interbreed with those of superior lineage.

That sounds so familiar to me...Hmmmmm

Personally, I like the way he keeps trying to prove a "Moot" point, LOL...too funny
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

This post was in response to Joe's question, not yours, and as I said, "relocate" not sentence to death,...anyway sheldon, this topic truly is moot with you but there others here that like hearing all our views and I'm willing to concede with you but enough with the childish comments, why so anal? grow up and find something else to do with your time kid, maybe go clean your cages. I'll go practice my spelling if you promise to be a big boy, oh! the nazi thing was funny once. hitler"s sick intention was strength, yours/theirs is to weaken. pay attention here and even you might learn something.

LOL...PLEASE keep posting, I am laughing so hard my sides are hurting.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

No Joe, I have never killed a snake on purpose nor come across any albinos in the wild and yes the exterminated boas were albinos, the collectors thought they would sell but the american merchants considered them worthless, whats the going rate for those today?

Hmmm...Apple Orange Hybrid
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

Thomas, you wrote:

"spiteful?target? HAHAHAHA whatever jo. its not spite jo its HATE and PITY. i HATE stupidity and i PITY ignorance if it makes me a target, then sobeit."

So are you suggesting you are stupid and ignorant??? Don't be so hard on yourself buddy!
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."