Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone ever used these for their beardies and what does everybody think about these if you've heard of them. These are used for parasites, curing and preventing.

I use and have Parazap. I have had some success with it. Some dragons will happily drink it others will not.

Reptaid to me is all marketing and no substance.

Can you be more specific? What sucess have you had? I have thought about both of these, but have not tried them. I saw a rep for Reptaid at one of the shows, and he couldn't answer any questions except to tell me how great the product was and that I was making a mistake not buying it.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

Parazap is not designed as a probiotic. It is a natural herbal medicine for the treatment of parasites in animals. It is not as harsh and does not have the same downsides as the prescription medication Albon. It is not reptile specific.

You make it into a tea and then feed the tea to the animal. It is effective at controlling Coccidia. I've tasted the tea and it has a bad tasting long lasting aftertaste. Some of my dragons like the taste and therefore happily take it in the dosage necessary to be effective. Others do not like it and will not take it willingly, in those situations I do not use it. The dosage volume is much greater so it would be too risky to assist feed.

I do my own fecals here so I can easily test for effectiveness.

So what your saying then is, you have done fecals, found parasites, treated with parazap and then done another fecal and it was clear?
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www.moonstonedragons.com

From what I have heard about parazap is its good to help control flare ups of coccidia (sp?)and other parasites. It seems to promote healthy natural gut flora...which in turn make it easier for the animal to resist flare ups of parasites due to stress, etc.

I personally don't feel it can be used as a treatment, if parasites are found in any great concentration. But I haven't used the stuff myself (mostly because I never had any issue with parasites with my reptiles (other than external parasites one time), so never found any need to buy it. Also, far as I know, its only available via mail order.

As for the Reptaid...the fact the seller couldn't tell you any info about it, other than 'its great stuff'...pretty much tells me a: the guy is really clueless about what he sells, or b: it is crap and not worth buying. c: or both.

The way I see it, if the animal is healthy, all its needs are met husbandry wise, and its stress free...there is no need for any treatments, 'off the shelf' or proscribed.
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PHLdyPayne

Yes. Clear is a relative term when you're talking about Coccidia though.

No, I understand. I just wanted to know there was a fecal done before and after. I dont like to hear stuff like "my dragons eyes were brighter", or "his color improved" when the issue is parasites. Reading the customer reviews of both products, I dont remember anything about fecals being mentioned, which as we all know is the only way to determine sucess in this type of stuff. THANKS!
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www.moonstonedragons.com

Very true, as there is always some Coccidia in bearded dragons, its a normal part of their gut flora...which under normal conditions is present in very small numbers. Stress, antibiotics/worm treatments, poor nutrition/husbandry can cause it to flare up to harmful levels.

From what I remember, the poster B22 (or similar to that) uses parazap alot, or pretty sure he is who I am thinking of. However he doesn't post too often anymore...busy life I gather.
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PHLdyPayne

I get a huge kick out of some of the misinformation that spreads throughout these forums.

coccidia

http://www.beaglesunlimited.com/beaglehealth_coccidiosis.htm

Try this site as well as many others.

Coccidia is not part of their normal gutload. I have done several fecals on a number of animals and never had it present. Then a long while ago when I was keeping a dragon on sand and feeding them live caught insects from the wild... in this case... I had a dragon get infected and it was present in her stool. She was treated with panacur.

They are spores and rapidly infect the animal intestines. If you see one the animal is infected and the outbreak may not be outwardly visable yet because the animal is healthy. But it will eventually become an issue if the animal becomes stressed.

A healthy non infected animal should have NO coccidia present.

***See here directly from the article:

Coccidiosis is frequently referred to as an opportunist – a disease that will develop when other stress factors are present. For example, the highest incidence of coccidiosis is in the first 21 days after a dog has changed owners and moved to a new residence. If a normal animal carries oocysts, it is relatively easy for rapid development when the conditions are right – adverse weather, shipping, dog food changes, new owners, new residence, and other stresses are important.

It is an infectious microbe not part of their normal enzymes and healthy digestion bacteria.

To think otherwise would mean you have not read about the infectious protazoa enough.

Here it is simplified:

It is a very common microbe for an animal any animal to attain. It is not part of their normal intestinal digestive "good" bacteria. It is present in water and there other various ways to attain these spores. Referred to as oocysts.

A very healthy animal that is infected with coccidia will sometimes not show signs of being infected until stressed.

Read some more on it and you will see the infectious protazoa oocyst must be sporulated and can be transferred etc.

thank you for your concern

Basically a healthy animal may have oocysts which are essentially eggs. Once the animal is stressed the eggs may begin to spawn the protazoa and infect the animal.

Many animals *dragons* do have oocysts. Which means they harbor the eggs for coccidiosis but have not been rife with a full blown outbreak where they have sporulated etc.

It is complicated but certainly the non affected bearded dragon does not have oocysts present in their normal digestive enzymes for the purposes of breaking down food items no.

?

Yes the vet prescribed me panacur for coccidiosis... I would not make that up. Have no need to fabricate that. She told me it was effective against all parasites and worms.

And of course you had a follow up fecal to make sure the problem was taken care of.

I had about 10 fecals done on that animal. Thanks for your inquiries.

I may be wrong about it occuring naturally within all bearded dragons, but it is present in most bearded dragons, whether its active or in cyst form. You yourself indicated in another post the oocysts are common to find in small numbers in even healthy dragons. To me, these oocysts are still coccidia and these oocysts can be in animals for a long time without causing any issues.

It is a very common parasite and is present in just about every kind of animal on the plant. Of course there are also just as many different species of coccidia as there are animal who get infected by it. Much like Salmonella. It wouldn't surprise me though if most if not all the population of bearded dragons have some percentage of oocysts in their systems...even if its less than 1%.

It does get tiring you are determined to debunk every single thing said on this forum. I agree not everything posted on this forum and others is always 100% accurate...but the bulk of it is based off of years of experience and tried and true methods. In a way you possess the same stubbornness others do in feeling your view is the only view and everybody else's view is wrong. Unfortunately that isn't the case. New information is always being brought forth and I keep an open mind when I hear things that are contrary to what has been said, and I do research (though much of my research gets stalled as I can't access the research papers on various subjects..and I certainly have no intention to pay between $15-$40 US just to read research papers).

Also, i tend not to hold much value on home fecals done by some breeders/keepers, unless they are certified Vets or at least an experienced lab technician in animal sciences.

My own research into Panacur has revealed its more a general dewormer, but not very effective (or typically used) to treat coccidia. It is also completely different from Parazap which basically is a herbal tea to help boost reptile immune systems. A good healthy immune system makes it easier for dragons to fight off coccidia infections. Albon, which is the recommended treatment, prevents coccidia from reproducing and giving the animal more time to fight it off naturally and increase its resistance to it.
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PHLdyPayne

I started doing my own fecals about 2 years ago because there is too much variance in the quality of the reading when done in a vet office. Fecals are done by vet tech's not Vet's who mostly learn on the job. There just aren't enough reptile pets yet to establish a good baseline procedure and reading. Fecals are easy to do and the knowledge and procedure is published in books and available online. The only downside is the expense of purchasing a microscope.

When you do them yourself you have unlimited time for evaluation. You also can work with a much fresher sample generally.

What is the magnification of your microscope, and do you have the one that puts the image on your computer?
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www.moonstonedragons.com

Mine only cost me about $150. It is 40x-640x. Anything more is really unnecessary. The kind you are talking about is way more money.

That does make sense, about having far more time to evaluate a sample. $150 for a microscope isn't that bad, considering they can go for much more. Definitely more than the little 'kiddy' microscope included in the science kits you can get for kids, but far more powerful.

One of these days I want to pick up Dr. Mader's book on Reptile Medicine to use for reference and just to read. Perhaps after I consume that book I will want to learn more about doing my own fecals...and pick up books specifically geared towards reptile parasites.

Vet techs would still have the needed skills, even if they are still learning. but if they have 100 fecals to do before lunch, I can see they don't have much time to look at a smear for very long and can miss low levels of parasites, or even misidentify them.
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PHLdyPayne

I have Dr. Mader's book. It's more of a reference tool than something you would read. I'd say it's as far from light reading as you can get.

Oh, I definitely didn't expect it would be light reading...but I have read books like that before and I learn alot from them. Though if it does get too heavily scientific I may get lost after awhile..but I like the challenge.
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PHLdyPayne

THANK YOU !!!

Contrary to what you're saying...

Coccidia: your dragons should be clear of this and it is not something that they all carry where you can say it a relative thing

If your keeping your dragons on sand you will have a higher likely-hood of dragons being infected as the organic material where they originate is going to fester in the sand no matter how much you sift and swap it out.

Other wise they are incessant and multiply within a matter of a day or two into a full blown issue.

You should have *none* present in stool... it is not a relative thing there apicomplexan protozoa coccidia expert.

Do some reading on it.

There will always be a trace of Coccidia in bearded dragons, it occurs naturally. It is only when the animal is unhealthy, in a dirty environment (where fecal matter remains for long periods of time) stress, antibiotic/deworming treatments or multiple animals kept in the same cage, that Coccidia can quickly grow to dangerous health threatening levels. However there are acceptable 'safe' levels of coccidia qualified and experiences herp vets use to determine if the concentrations require treatment.

There is no such thing as a 100% germ/bacteria free environment or animal. Even hospital clean rooms can't 'clean out' all traces of microbes within a living creature.

A healthy animal with excellent husbandry and clean conditions naturally keeps Coccidia and other harmful bacterias/parasites to a small manageable level. Its when the animals natural defenses are compromised that harmful microbes multiply out of control and drastically affect the health of the animal. The human mouth is a seething bath of bacteria, even after you brushed your teeth and used mouthwash. We have tons of microbes in our digestive tracts too, some beneficial and some harmful.
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PHLdyPayne

It is not always present, and it is not a naturally occurring protazoa that they use for digestion and produce themselves.

Do some more reading on it and get back with me.

Fecal floats or smears are an imperfect science. If you look hard enough you will most likely always find Coccidia. There is no such thing as a sterile substrate so a particulate substrate is no more likely to spread Coccidia than any other substrate, assuming each is regularly cleaned. Coccidia is not treated with Panacur. Coccidia is generally treated with Albon. You need to get your facts straight sport. Then again you're just looking to be contrary.

That is what my vet prescribed me for coccidiosis I can go take a picture of it. And I will. Dont call me sport either old man.

I have to get my facts straight?

That's a laugh.

Even when you're wrong you pass the buck then deny/play stupid.

Im done here. I can shoot holes through nearly all of your "so called" expert advice. You are a gum flapper so spare me.

You're right the vet did not prescribe this for me for coccidiosis.

You may want to get a second opinion on the use of panacur for coccidia.

Already got it worked out... thank you though.

http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html

You have all the answers so why bother posting on a forum. All the experience here is wasted on you.

BTW I don't find it insulting at all to be called an "old man" I have accepted my stage in life and actually consider it a compliment I have made it this far.

The thing that I find funny in life is that young people think old people are born old. They just don't understand that we have been there done that. The first 15 years of life are figuring out how to wipe yourself properly. The next five are figuring out how to wean yourself from momma. This is not an insult since I have been there too. But the next years are the true learning years.

A stupid man learns by his own mistakes. A smart man learns by others mistakes.

Your knowledge could some day exceed your elders but only if you take their knowledge and wisdom and grow from there.

Interesting how your supporting link doesn't support your argument. It says Panacur for Pinworms and Albon for Coccidia. Strange.

That is what the vet prescribed me over a year ago. She told me that it was used to kill virtually all parasites. Maybe albon is better for coccidiosis but that is what she prescribed me.

You are an old crusty one sir.
A virtual stain on the crevasse of life.

Cheers!!!

All in good fun though. I enjoy working you into a frothy flare out frost.

Brings me a sense of inner joy.

Sorry sport. You could never get me worked up. I always consider the source.

Looks to me that it was prescribed 11/25/09. You have a little trouble with honesty don't you? Especially since you haven't had Beardies for a year yet.

I haven't used either but everything I have heard about Parazap is its a good preventative given a few times a year and a great thing to use as a probiotic when treating dragons for parasites.

Reptaid I haven't really heard anything about, good or bad.
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PHLdyPayne