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Salmonella

livinginvestment May 31, 2010 10:48 AM

Happy Memorial Day Everyone!!

I just wanted to ask if there is anyone who has had the same issue as I have.

I have lost another animal (Hypo Jungle het Lipstick) this morning. He had the same symptoms of other animals (stopped eating, appeared weak, loss of color) that I have lost in the past. I had full necropsies done on two of the animals and the outcome was the same on both of them..Salmonella. No IBD detected.

I had switched feeder suppliers and cleaned out their cages weekly which included bleaching water dishes regularly. I thought I had it beat until today.

I can guess stress may also have been a factor as I lost most of them during winter and this one, coming out of winter. They were all cooled to some extent.

The purpose of this post is to see if there is anyone that has experienced anything similar to what I have experienced? In any way shape or form and to seek advice on how to prevent further losses. I will not be replacing any of my animals.

Thanks,

Kenny
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3.4 BCI
1.3 BCC
1.1 Eastern Indigo
1.3 Western Hognose (Het Albino)
2.2 Ball Python (Het Pied/Spider/Pastel)
1.1 Chondro (Mixer/Sorong)
1.1 Retic (Possible Het Calico)
1.1 Kimberly Monitor
1.3.6 Crested Gecko
0.1 Striped California Kingsnake "Skid Mark"
0.0.1 Florida Softshell Turtle
0.0.1 African Long Neck Turtle
1.0 Pitbull
0.1 Bull Terrier
1.2 Kids
0.1 Ball and Chain

Replies (9)

BoaGal May 31, 2010 11:25 AM

I had something similar, sort of. A couple of my boas died after refusing food for a few weeks. The first was a smaller male, less than a year old. I didn't really change anything after he died, I thought it was just a fluke. Then, a bigger female died a while later. She was 2-3 years old and did the same thing where she stopped eating first then died not too long later. I took her to the vet and they did a necropsy. They said she had some sulfur deposits in her and asked if I had changed feeders, etc. I have been using the same rodent supplier forever now so I knew that wasn't it. But, I had recently moved and changed from city water to well water. I quickly changed all water to distilled water from the store. I have not have a problem since (knock on wood) and I'm really hoping that was it. It has been almost a year since the older female died. I really hope you can find out what's causing your problem, and I'm sorry for the losses you have already suffered.
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Rachel Squier
"The more we live by our intellect, the less we understand the meaning of life." -Leo Tolstoy

LarM May 31, 2010 12:28 PM

>>>Posted by: livinginvestment at Mon May 31 10:48:30 2010
(stopped eating, appeared weak, loss of color)

Kenny I'm really sorry to hear about your troubles.

You said loss of color !

Do you mean full out areas on the Boa that looked like they were
leached of color ,splotches of basically white or pale scales ?

I went through a similar problem in '08. It hits Hypo Boas harder
than normals but I lost some non Hypo's also.

In my case it wasn't Salmonella but some other forms of bacteria
pseudomonas,klebsiella, and one other I can't remember right now.

Sounds like the toxic rat syndrome, that we cant seem to
completely nail down.

In my case I'm convinced some type of fat was an issue
that caused the bacteria blooms.

Antibiotics were helpful in treating some of my Boas (Amakacin)

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

jscrick May 31, 2010 05:37 PM

Cooling depresses the immune system. Too cool for too long is not good. They still must have a spot for warming up every day. May not be as hot as in the active season, but still warmer than the overall background temp.
I guess it depends on how cool and how long cool, etc.
Treating them like Colubrids does not work.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

stconstrictors May 31, 2010 07:26 PM

I agree. They need that belly or basking heat each day. I would imagine the immune system being very vulnerable at low temps for x amount of days.

Anyone know if the kind of feed rat suppliers use can be a cause of this? From my understanding and first hand knowledge... Some suppliers are using pig or cattle feed that is medicated?

Doesn't make any sense to me to feed this to rats? Lar, have you hear about this??

LarM May 31, 2010 11:49 PM

No I have not heard of medicated feed but wouldn't doubt it with some suppliers.

My supplier who I had used for years and continued to use was and is reliable.

His rats come from places like Harlan Labs and Taconic labs.

They raise these rats under special controlled conditions and feed
them the highest quality food.

The problem seems to be with certain strains of Rats bred especially to be used in certain medical trials and
Scientific trials that have to do with Obesity,Hypertension, Diabetes and other fat related issues.

So these types or strains specifically raised for these test purposes can have extremely high fat levels in them.

These are usually Black hooded or Zucker rat types that are bred
for these purposes from what info I could gather.

I believe this "Fat" causes internal digestive issues with many Boas especially hypo Boas and this can lead to
a Bacteria bloom and Bacterial sepsis sickness and death can soon follow !

Unless you raise your own strain of rats I order only White and mice

. . . Lar M

Click Link below

. . . . . .
Bad rat issue in Rabbits vs XXXL Rats....Thread

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

jscrick Jun 01, 2010 07:48 AM

That's as good an explanation as I've heard. Goes with the color shed and toxic shock from toxin overload (enteritis to Kidneys septic bacterial).
Not the same issue as temperature suppressed immune.
Just my thoughts.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

stconstrictors May 31, 2010 07:29 PM

I forgot to mention that I am sorry for your loss... At least it was not IBD...

Do you breed your own rats?

livinginvestment Jun 01, 2010 08:58 AM

Thanks everyone....

The temps were dropped but not drastically. They always had their hot spot above 85 degrees.

The colors would fade. They both did their shed like the others that died in the past. Darken head.

Forgot to ad their foul smelling and liquid stools were all consistent.

And I found a new supplier with clean animals. However, I only buy XXL rats from them. I bred my own rats for the smaller male. I freeze them and thaw them in hot water fairly quick. This to prevent bacteria from forming. Maybe this excellerates bacterial growth?

Do you think the vet can administer antibodies for this? I now know the signs and can really get a jump on it.

Thanks again to everyone for your concerns and input!!

Kenny
-----
2.3 BCI
0.3 BCC
1.1 Eastern Indigo
1.3 Western Hognose (Het Albino)
2.2 Ball Python (Het Pied/Spider/Pastel)
1.1 Chondro (Mixer/Sorong)
1.1 Retic (Possible Het Calico)
1.1 Kimberly Monitor
1.3.6 Crested Gecko
0.1 Striped California Kingsnake "Skid Mark"
0.0.1 Florida Softshell Turtle
0.0.1 African Long Neck Turtle
1.0 Pitbull
1.2 Kids
0.1 Ball and Chain

coreywoods Jun 01, 2010 09:26 AM

The news article is password protected in the link. However, someone with access to it maybe able to post the entire article here. I was only sent this partial copy.

Zoonoses and public health.

Volume 55 | Issue 8-10 (October 2008)

www.vin.com/Members/Journals/Journal.plx?AID=1575256

A multi-state Salmonella Typhimurium outbreak associated with frozen vacuum-packed rodents used to feed snakes
Zoonoses Public Health. October 2008;55(8-10):481-7.

C C Fuller 1, S L Jawahir , F T Leano, S A Bidol , K Signs , C Davis, Y Holmes , J Morgan, G Teltow , B Jones, R B Sexton , G L Davis, C R Braden, N J Patel , M P Deasy 3rd, K E Smith
1 Minnesota Department of Health, Acute Disease Investigation and Control Section, St. Paul, MN 55164, USA. Candace.Fuller@health.state.mn.us

Abstract

From December 2005 through January 2006, the Minnesota Department of Health (MDH) identified four human clinical isolates of Salmonella Typhimurium that were indistinguishable by pulsed-field gel electrophoresis (PFGE). During routine interviews, three of the cases reported attending the same junior high school and two handled snakes in the science classroom. MDH collected environmental samples from the school's science classroom for Salmonella culturing; these included environmental sam ples and frozen vacuum-packed mice purchased over the internet to feed the classroom snakes. Through PulseNet, a national molecular subtyping surveillance network for enteric bacteria, 21 human S. Typhimurium isolates with indistinguishable PFGE patterns were identified in the United States since December 2005. Each state determined whether these human cases had recent exposure to snakes fed vacuum-packed rodents. Texas state officials conducted tracebacks of the vacuum-packed mice and collected samples at the breeding facility. Nineteen of 21 cases were interviewed, and seven reported contact with frozen vacuum-packed rodents from the same internet-based supplier in Texas. In Minnesota, the outbreak PFGE subtype of S. Typhimurium was isolated from the snakes, frozen feed rodents, and the classroom environment. Three human cases were identified in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wyoming. The outbreak PFGE subtype of S. Typhimurium was isolated from the Pennsylvania case's frozen rodents and the Michigan case's pe t snake. The outbreak PFGE subtype of S. Typhimurium was also isolated from the supplier's rodent facility. This was a S. Typhimurium outbreak associated with frozen rodents. Human transmission likely occurred through direct contact with snakes and contaminated environmental surfaces. This report represents the second recent multi-state salmonellosis outbreak associated with commercially distributed rodents. Stronger oversight of the commercial rodent industry is warranted.

800.700.4636 | VINGRAM@vin.com | 530.756.4881 | Fax: 530.756.6035
777 W. Covell Blvd, Davis, CA 95616
Copyright 1991-2009, Veterinary Information Network, Inc.


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