Reptile & Amphibian Forums

sure has changed over the years. Does anyone here consider opposing viewpoints? "Hybrid" or "Pure" you should make no mistake, keeping animals in shoeboxes (or expensive cages) is not experiencing them in any type of natural setting.

Public discourse helps increase knowledge, spouting off veiled insults or continual preaching to the choir is a waste of time. Be confident enough in your own opinions that you might listen to others........... who knows you may just learn something.

don't even bother. both sides are typically so polarized it becomes a allegorical rendition of the 'evolution' v. 'creation' argument until it degenerates even further to become an example of goowin's law.

both sides are so passionate about their viewpoints they can't help but make themselves look like fools trying to validate their beliefs with fallacious statements.

my advice: google any questions and only come here to post if you've exhausted all options.

So what camp do you guys find yourself falling into? Or is there a third camp called "trolling" or "stirring the pot"? LOL. C'mon guys.....what's wrong with keeping a California king a California king........I'm finding your sarcasm and eloquent digs equally frustrating. But i'm just saying.....
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Because we keep snakes in captivity, we should do all we can to destroy their unique genetic makeup that evolved over hundreds of years. We should definately be hybridizing them, because once we do that, there's no way to go back and fix the situation.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to put a Santa Cruz Garter in with my Baird's Ratsnakes and see what happens.

Tim

Third Eye

Thank you for validating my point.

I'm neither ideologically anti hybrid or pro locale specific, they both have their pros and cons. I have no hybrids but I can envision their place as herp keeping continues (especially if laws regulate the ownership of particular species). How is this current progression from wild type to something more (granted this is debatable) suited to captivity (or more suited to the tastes of the owner) any different than other domesticated species? Release of ANY captive animals into the wild is bad regardless if the released species is found in your area (negating the idea that multigenerational captive animals are any more ok to release).

It is wonderful to keep, and perpetuate, a species found in the wild but don't kid yourself that you have accomplished anything of grandeur with a locale specific animal sitting in a Rubbermaid. Help conserve that animal's native habitat, then you have something to crow about.

The most disappointing thing is so few people can handle alternative viewpoints. You don't have to agree that's ok.

Phil,
You know I've had all these discussions w/ friends while herping or over a beer in a restaurant, and the conversations can get heated but it seems to always be in good fun and form. But for some reason when the arguments are printed out in a forum discussion everyone gets worked up and polarized, the argument often degrades into a name calling rant. Which can be fun if you don't like the person you're talking to, but for the most part is a drag to the forum and a bore for all of us. Which is, I believe in part, what your trying to address.
I'm w/ you, I'll try and be a better person in my posting in the future, and hope some of our other posters will try and do the same. We all could use a more pleasant place to visit for sure, but don't be surprised when it degrades again, and it will.
Peace.

-Dell

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HYBRIDS SUCK >>>>>>>>>

How's that for playing both judge and jury..? LOL. I know I've heard those words before. I kinda like what Tim had to say as well. This has all nothing to do about "alternative viewpoints".....let's keep it real......bottom line is that there is an ethical dilemma here and some folks just can't accept that what they're doing is just wrong.....that's what i call rigidity and selfishness. For the gazillionth time, I fear and will LOATHE the day I have to question every single thing I even think about buying in this hobby, and the more the mentalities grow in this fashion the sooner that day will arrive. It's bad enough we keep snakes in plastic tubs, but to create abominations like a cornduran is just without a doubt absurd and irresponsible. My opinion, and seemingly the majority opinion thank goodness.

Okay, now for beer......who's buying?
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I for one think we step on the moral slippery sloap the moment we start keeping wild animals in plastic boxes.

I've said this time and again the existance of hybrids need not imact more "pure" collections but the responsibility lay with those keeping the pures. Look at the variety of corn snakes and emori crosses but you can still find pure okeetees quite easily.

Wishing the world was a simple place where everyone sees things as you do is not realistic.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

....jus b'cause ya can don't mean ya should....

And thank you for validating MY point.

When you say "It is wonderful to keep, and perpetuate, a species found in the wild but don't kid yourself that you have accomplished anything of grandeur with a locale specific animal sitting in a Rubbermaid. Help conserve that animal's native habitat, then you have something to crow about."

You don't know me. You don't know how I feel about my breeding accomplishments (hint: it's certainly not grandeur). You have no idea what I've done to conserve reptile habitat. In short, you have no idea what you're talking about.

If you have something constructive to offer that is based on factual information, then that could be worth talking about. But as others have said, there is a hybrid forum for hybrid discussions. This is the Milk Snake Forum.

If you want to endlessly argue about hybrids, that's cool - but it's all been done before. You're not likely to change anyone's mind. I'm all for people expressing themselves - those who oppose hybrids should be free to say so.

I think most people who keep "pure" snakes have been doing it for a lot longer of a time than a Johnny-come-lately who thinks he's going to create a "new species" and then quits the hobby when no one wants the snakes he produces (because they're hybrids). Then you have a bunch of snakes that nobody wants, nor knows for sure what they are. If you're cool with that, that's your prerogative - I don't happen to be cool with that scenario (and I've seen it happen over and over again).

So I'm going to say something about it when the topic comes up.

Tim

in his post that these discussions are best had over dinner and drinks. You are correct that I don't know you or your ambitions (I wasn't intentionally maligning you in my posts, if that is how it felt I apologize). I have looked at your site more than a few times and I am interested in many of the same species you work with (my schrenkii were a tad small to breed this year). I'm not even sure that we are in complete disagreement when it comes to hybrids however I have been thinking about the future of snakes and snake keeping and I can envision "breeds" of snakes that bear no resemblance to wild types. This whole idea needs more thought/discussion but maybe I will save it for a rainy day (and a few beers!).

Take it easy and good luck this season
Phil

Nice post...I agree that not all people feel the same way about ANY topic, much less the incendiary HYBRID topic! I also dont keep Hybrids, but I have seen many that I would own if I had the inclination. I dont look down upon anybody that wants to own one of breed them...I have heard that its MUCH harder to breed Hybrids, so there is obviously more skill being utilized there.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

Phil, I think the reason their is so much hooplah over the hybrid issue on this forum boils down to a few key points as follows:

1. milks seem to be the crux of many hybrid experiments conducted.
2. not all hybrid babies are fantastic and many are quite unattractive, or look like one parent or the other.
3. the non-fantastic hybrids get sold off to unsuspecting buyers as what they best represent visually, not what they actually are genetically. And,
4. more than one person on this forum who is heavily into milk subspecies has been burnt by buying/acquiring suspect snakes they do not want to introduce into their breeding programs (see point No. 3).

I have often stated that hybrids in and off themselves are not necessarily bad. IMO its the way they have a tendency to be pawned off to the unsuspecting buyers that probably damages their reputation the most!!

KevinM

All true...I personally have received FAR more snakes that were supposedly "Double Het" (and werent) for a certain morph, and from respected breeders and Forum members, than questionable snakes. However, I wouldnt buy a snake that didnt look right to me or the breeder didnt have pics of the parents. I think most people here use that formula for buying snakes.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

This forum does have the most disruptive characters and funny thing is this forum is also in need of the pros advise more so than the other forums due to milks popularity, most people here are beginners and don't seem to understand that generations of albino propagation or createing hybrids is irresponsible or non professional, they log on to these forums and criticize spelling, AR... like we are in english class here, don't I have logic on my side? this hondo may have numbers on his side but problem is albinos have become dominant now here with milks, and the hybrids are following, I just feel it's time to start and keep on mentioning it to these kids that ask, I only log on, 15 years now to give my advise not to critique others spelling, I never did go to collage but my even my high school education tought me that whats happening is reckless, wrong and way outahand! BTW collage only offers documentation for those whom need documentation to get a job, most of my friends that went wish they had my job. JB