Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The thing about this pure v not pure thing that gets me the most is that those on the pure side often want to charge a premium for their efforts in maintaining their stock and then gripe about the fact that its hard to find pure stock and bust on people who don't play by the same rules. This is a very broad assessment of the situation and its likely unfair to just about everyone involve but I think it hits just about all the sentiments that are expressed.

The thing is if you want to charge a premium over the mongrel horde of generics and hybrids you have to do some work and wishing that you didn't have to do it or lamenting that others make it hard for you is not productive so I thought I'd offer a bit of a solution.

I recently bought a purebred west highland terrier. He cost me $800 and for this and an extra $25 fee I get papers from a centralized agency that says yes he is pure. The thing is for my $800 I only get that assurance. The AKC will not recognize Boo as a breeder and will not paper his offspring. If I wanted that right I would have had to pay an extra $800 to establish the lineage and be able to pass papers to his offspring.

Herps need something similar. I think it's unreasonable to expect anything but the kind of dissention we see in this (and God knows the GBK forum) without a FUNDED effort to define some of the objectives and centralize records so that lineages can be fairly documented and propagated reliably.

I don't feel as strongly about the pure v hybrid thing as some do so I have not initiated such a system but if those who do feel strong enough did, I'd like to think that I would offer constructive reviews and comment on the effort and support and utilize the service. The question is do enough people really care strongly enough to warrant and fund a system? I'm not sure there are. In my experience herpers, myself included, are not joiners.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

i think that phase "fund a system" runs most of us off.....we're all pretty tight with a buck....that's a joke....but even them "papers" can be falsified.....personnally i don't view anything wrong with producing hybreds for an affordable pet or starter snake for a kid or other such uses.....but for myself...i don't even like the albinos and other morph....although i do have a td hypo temporalis and a tt stripe.....so there it is.....

Bob wrote:
i think that phase "fund a system" runs most of us off.....we're all pretty tight with a buck....that's a joke....but even them "papers" can be falsified.....personnally i don't view anything wrong with producing hybreds for an affordable pet or starter snake for a kid or other such uses.....but for myself...i don't even like the albinos and other morph....although i do have a td hypo temporalis and a tt stripe.....so there it is.....

Okay right, got it. Bob Assetto likes... no, loves hybrids. (note to self, stop talking to Bob Assetto.)

-Dell

that ain't what i meant....actually i'd more of a "LOCALITY NUTZ" kinda guy....but i will deal with guys i trust...but like i said...i'll stray once and a while....ha ask my ex-old lady....no...just joking...

Yep!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, there are really 3 types of keepers.
1--Those that catch all their own and at most trade with others they trust. LOCALITY NUTS.
2--Those that can hunt, have hunted, but also go to shows/websites and buy "pretty snakes". Call em NON LOCALITY guys.
3--Those city folk who may have hunted when they were a kid, or are kids who live in cities or prefer species simply not found in this country. Lets call em PET ROCK SNAKERS. Hybridizers fall into this catagory.

Now "pedigreeing" for locality nuts may work....if they can find enough people they can get along with to follow. There are just SOOOO many types of snakes available now. Of course I will refer back to my old arguement that locality is lost beyond F2 without infusion of new blood. Inividual specimen registration would be needed, lots of work. But if they want to be "special" I think they have the tools to do it. Most will find that they may lose support for it over time.

The question comes down to this Jeff, are people willing to put time, effort and treasure where their mouths are. My bet is they (the majority of local breeders) will not. The closest we have is a "list" and the rules on that have evolved such that even those who played by the "rules" all along are finding themselves off the list. This is patently unfair and it makes me question motives when those who've managed to stay on the list remain quiet.

Though I do like local stock, until a fair system of establishing and propagating lineage is adopted all that is going on is posturing to maintain an exclusive "stand up locality guy" club.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, the essence of why we all like snakes to begin with is "being individual". Yes, the opinions and rules have changed over time, but I dont recall you as one who bothered to follow. While the LOCALE NUTZ have created a club which we all cant join, they are intelligent enough guys to see things our way as well....even if they dont want to admit it. Dont take it personal. We all have our self interest at heart. The REAL interesting things occur when a LOCALITY NUT produces a morph then inbreeds like crazy to reproduce it. I think breeding "locality morphs" is almost hypocritical, but even saying that I feel differently about your crossing the hypo coastal gene into NC and Jersey coastals. WHY? Simply because I am different, not intentionally difficult. Dont try and make everyone happy.

Hmmmmmm!

what do you think you have now? A small class of highly vocal breeders who can and do change the rules as they go. Better to have a represetnative body that establishes the base rules and means for ammending them. Once fees are charged, you have a contract which can not as easily be altered. Unless of course you are a bank.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Irks me when I see a locality snake 4x the price of a generic.

I like when breeders maintain a locality because they appreciate the locality and animals there.

I know one guy who has awesome locality Cal kings he sells for $50. He truly appreciates the animals and wants more herpers to share the interest. Love it.
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Mark

If there are fewer of something it might be worth more to those who want it. I know Carl B could have sold out of his OBX every year if he lowered the price, but he would rather put a higher price on them and release the unsold babies than lower their value on the market. Same with my Monster Island milks, something so different and rare will hold their price if the breeder values the animals more than the money to be made off of them.

....always a commercial.....LOL.......
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......JY

I know some awesome locality breeders, as well as breeders that produce non-locale-but-pure snakes, and they don't charge what you are calling a " premium ". In fact, their prices are cheaper than what a lot of others charge.

I have seen though what you are describing with some breeders, but remember, not all locality nuts or breeders do what you are describing.
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Genesis 1:1

I think I acknowledged as much in the original post Billy. I'm not sure the ideological Frankenstien I described actually exists but I would like to see wider adoption of terms and a standard means to document lineage. It would be much easier than having to moderate a new crop of locality nuts every couple of years!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I buy mutts when possible....people are not going to pay me extra, why should I

some stuff you have to get locality ....that's just a fact....

some locality are cheaper if uglier ,out of egg, or overproduced by certain peoples....

and my brother in law brought home a west highland terrier one day from work...a guy had pups and was at the gate giving them away...she is pure, she is cool ,she is a perfect westie....she is 9 or 10 now....and she was free....

have fun.....

Oh...NO ONE will pay or do the work for registering snakes....

....paperwork can be lied on anyways....
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......JY

"The thing about this pure v not pure thing that gets me the most is that those on the pure side often want to charge a premium for their efforts in maintaining their stock and then gripe about the fact that its hard to find pure stock and bust on people who don't play by the same rules."

I'm inclined to think that this is a very small number of locality breeders. Locality breeders as a whole only make up a small fragment of the snake breeders. And those who charge a premium for locality snakes are a fragment of a fragment. So I don't think your idea will have much impact. Let them gripe if no one wants to buy the snakes they offer at premium prices.

It's been said many times before, it comes down to reputation and trust. If I catch a pair of Pacific Gopher Snakes in Los Gatos, CA, take them home and reproduce them - then it's up to potential buyers to believe me (or not) when it comes to the snakes being what I say there are. Is there any way to "prove" where a snake was caught? Yeah, you could take a picture, but that doesn't indicate a county and any snake can be "planted" and photographed.

There are very few snakes that can be traced back to their wild ancestors (in terms of all the snakes being offered for sale). Though if I can make some bucks building an "ancestory.com"-style website for snakes, I'll do it.

Tim

Agreed, its all about trust in who you buy snakes from. I have bought from Shannon Brown, Nathan Wells, Guy Clark, Tim Spuckler, Norm Damm and Bob Applegate...I absolutely trust these breeders, and the documentation they provide upon delivery.

I am not a real "Locality" guy, even though I do have some, and I have never had anybody ask me for certain locales when buying from me...so I agree that its a very small fraction that are concerned about this.

I breed Hondo's and Sinaloan's, mostly going for Aberrancies but also Snows and Extreme's in Hondo's - and Hypo E and Splotched and T Plus in my Sinaloan's. So, I am going pretty far from "Normal" as is found in the field...and I can see the appeal of the Hybrids in that regard, to get something unusual not found in the field.

Thats my 2 cents...I'm kinda in the middle.
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan