Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know how the oil spill has/going to inpact this turtle. Anything proactive going on? I emailed the TSA last week but have not got a responce yet.I know the human impact is of first concern, but the news is covering the toll on birds and other animals but not this turtle. It seems likely they would be affected on many fronts, like their food, the oil itself, egg laying, the hatchlings, habitat, future generations ect. but I have not seen anything about this including here. Anyone involved with this turtle have any information. Thanks in advance. VM

TERRAPINS SHOULD BE LISTED AT THE LINK REPORTED HERE:

HerpDigest Volume # 10 Issues 26 6/4/10 (A Not-for-Profit Publication)

2) Oil Spill Consolidated Fish and Wildlife Collection Report- Where to Find Daily Updates of Animal Death and Injuries. (These records are only good for the past 45 days)

To report injured or dead wildlife in the impact area call: 1-866-557-1401
These are the consolidated numbers of collected fish and wildlife that have been reported to the Unified Area Command from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS), National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), incident area commands, rehabilitation centers and other authorized sources operating within the Deepwater Horizon/BP incident impact area.
At this phase in the response, field-level staff will document all injured or dead fish and wildlife encountered in the impact area. This document reflects only the initial, field-level, evaluation and does not reflect a final determination of the cause of injury, or death. Not all of the injured or dead fish and wildlife reflected in these numbers were necessarily caused by the Deepwater Horizon/BP incident. Official designations of cause of death will be determined at a later date.
Part of the long-term assessment process is to carefully examine and determine the cause of death or injury for impacted fish and wildlife. Some fish and wildlife reported here have likely died or been injured by natural causes, not due to the oil spill. Due to the increased number of trained people evaluating the spill impacted areas, it is also likely that we will recover more naturally injured or dead fish and wildlife than normal.
Once found or captured, collected fish and wildlife are given an identifying number that will follow it throughout the evaluation process. Collected fish and wildlife are given an initial examination to search for broken bones, external oil or other injuries. As needed, this may be followed by a more thorough examination to search for less obvious injuries, such as oil in the mouth, throat or eyes. An additional step may include a partial or full necropsy (an autopsy for animals) to help determine the exact cause of death if possible.
** These numbers are accurate to the best of our knowledge at the time the report was created. The numbers of injured and dead fish and wildlife, as well as the cause of injury or death, are not official until verified. The categories on this report -- visibly oiled, no visible oil or pending -- are not an official determination of cause of death.

NOTE: It is normal for reported numbers to fluctuate between “visibly oiled,” “no visible oil” and “pending.” If staff are unable to make a determination at a field location, the number will be placed in the pending column and evaluated as soon as possible. Once a determination is made, the number will be moved from “pending” to the appropriate columm.

Links to the Daily Reports can be found at http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/doctype/2931/55963

Birds, Mammals and other reptiles are also being kept tracked on this page.
_______________________________________________
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Vic, I'm concerned anout LOTS of coastal herps like Crocs, Mangrove Warer Snakes, DBT's, etc. What about the remaining RARE Ground Iguanas endemic to the West Indies? IT IS NOTHING SHORT OF A DISASTER THE LIKE OF WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN BEFORE....I breed the Ornate DBT's here because I like them so much and this type [prettiest of all ssp.] lives only near Tampa Bay...

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, Your right lots of animals birds and reptiles will take a BIG hit. The DBT is on the front line so to speek and I'm woundering if anything can be done in ADVANCE! Off cource the laws are anti captive breeding so there is not a big "ASSURENCE COLONY" to help offset some of the loss. If their food chain and nesting areas are covered with oil they will die out in huge numbers. Another species being "PROTECTED" by the government, kept out of the hands of those that can best help them. VM

We need to be out there shouting these facts to the public to get some broad public support and awareness for our position.

We are an endangered species as well, driven to the brink by the same forces that will unfortunately allow the Diamond-backed Terrapin and others to go by the wayside, due to their narrow-minded ineptness. If animals only exist in institutions and in the wild, eventually, they will only exist in institutions. As in "the last of", stuffed or pickled and in a museum.

Whatever happened to the theory of portfolio diversification? What happened to the precautionary axiom, "don't put all your eggs in one basket"? Stop the wrong thinking!

We are the true conservationists. We were there before any of these high dollar lobbyists had a clue. We've got to stop these pretenders to the throne from continuing to call the tune.

Americans need to know the true enemies of wildlife are those ones "that protest'uth too much". They can talk the talk, but they can't walk the walk. The results speak for themselves.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Please find some oiled/sick/dead Diamond-backed Terrapins. Rescue some live ones if need be. Document every bit of it.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Diamondback Terrapins occupy a precarious niche as it is, existing in a narrow marginal zone between freshwater and salt.

Populations are under great pressure from pollution and from habitat loss, as well as a high bycatch mortality from commercial crabbers and inland shrimpers. I've even seen dead ones, killed by boat props.

Why isn't the public allowed to breed them?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The cynical side of me says because it would mean humans and animals would be having contact. Would be blasphemy to the law pusher's eco-religion.
The side of me that wants to believe people have good intentions is that maybe state officials would be afraid that people would botch breeding attempts, or would try to release animals that would contaminate the wild populations.
But common sense tells you that all of this is moot if there are no wild populations left. We have laws like this "protecting" box turtles in my state, and yet their habitat continues to be eaten up by development every year. The "leave it in the wild" conservation model is becoming impractical.

As those that regulate sit in judgment of the lay practitioners the precautionary principle continues to prove inadequate...and the reality is, the track record of the authorities and professionals is dismal, especially when you compare it to the private sector.

When Box Turtles are extinct in the wild, they will only exist in the collections of people like Steph, as she seems to be the only intelligent lay person around. Just ask her. Surely the authorities already are aware of this. I'm sure they will gladly delegate the responsibility for the continuation of the species to her and to her better judgment. After all, she's the last word on just about everything. Haven't you noticed?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

"The side of me that wants to believe people have good intentions is that maybe state officials would be afraid that people would botch breeding attempts, or would try to release animals that would contaminate the wild populations."

This is in fact a HUGE concern for state wildlife officials, as it has already been documented that certain reintroduced wildlife have in fact been harboring diseases that have spread to native populations and done serious damage. Do a web search for Mycoplasma Agassizii or Iridovirus sometime.

There is also concern about genetic diversity, disease susceptibility/resistance and other considerations.

So, officials do have legitimate considerations.

One thing that is encouraging is the increasing popularity of putting tracts of land under conservation easement. Typically these are parcels that contain sensitive habitat, wetlands, and/or features such as river frontage. It's a growing trend: environmentally minded folks wanting to protect land from future development.

I agree disease transmission can be a serious concern with any release of captive bred herps into the wild. There are many other concern such as locality and genetic diversity. However wildlife agencies would be facing the same concerns. Obviously wildlife agencies should be in charge of the actual releasing and any quarantines prior to releases but there is no reason private keepers couldn't maintain and provide some of the genetic material(ie. specimens). I think it could be beneficial to have private keepers involved for several reasons. 1) They could bear the costs of maintaining these collections indefinately until they are needed. 2) Having several collections housed in several locations lowers the risk of a catastrophic event taking out the entire captive population. 3) More collections provides more opportunity for genetic diversity when properly managed.

There are potential negatives, such as laundering illegally collected stock, associated with allowing these animals to be "out there" in private collections but I think with proper management the risks could be minimized.

Hi Aaaron, here in Florida at various peagents and events they used to have "Gopher Races" which meant folks [Cities] collected wild G. polyphemus and hold them until they had races at these events. These Tortoises were kept under terrible conditions and many were sick. The tortoises were moved from event to event until they died usually. We [herpers] complained and finally it was outlawed here in the late 70's. We have "some" uper RI problems in a few locations here in Florida not because of herpers releasing any Tortoises but FWC did thinking they were helping. When these "Gopher Races" ended it was abrupt and it all began at the Edison Paegent Of Light in Ft myers, Fl. I was there and FWC confiscated the Gophers and released them on Sanibel Island in Lee County, Fl. This was the beginning of this isolated problem in Florida however wildlife officials did the releasing or else ordered that it happen and NOT herpers. I in fact remarked at the time that some of the tortoises were sick but they felt by being in the wild was the best bet for recovery. I didn't radically object because that was a different time and no one knew the possibilities...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Aaron there is NO doubt but that the private sector must be involved at some point with the recovery of certain species. Zoo's nor Agencies have the space, time, money, or interest in doing such things on the scale it would have to be done to work. The best way to do any breeding program is with some sort of financial incentive to do it. There is NO doubt in my mind that Indigo Snakes could be bred on a huge scale and a percentage turned over to FWC for rearing and to act as resovior against extinction in the wild. This same model I helped to facilitate many years ago with crocodilians worldwide. This worked so well that now many of the world's crocodilians once on the brink of extinction are now quite common. This same success would be possible with many other species. If Bufo perglines had ever been commercially bred they now would NOT be extinct and lost forever. I remember seeing these by the thousands in Monte Verde in the 70's and the beautiful Golden Toads now exist only in the memories of those of us that were lucky enough to see them. Once more my phrase "CONSERVATION THRU COMMERCIALIZATION" is the only practical and workable way to keep and maintain lg. numbers of herps in captivity but would be a HUGE hedge against extinction. It has exceeded all expections with crocs. Gharials are suffering primarily because of the Indian Governments refusal to allow commercial harvest. Therefore breeding projects are put on hold because of the great number held in captivity and we already know the problems of disease in areas where they have been released. If the Indian Government would do as so many other counties have and allow commercialization not only would the Gharials be held in great numbers but money could be generated to aid in the release programs. It's of interest that the one country that thinks like staph are a dismal failure when compared to other counties who allow commercialization.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, I completely agree with you. I also believe in "Conservation through Commercialization" and have used this phrase on many occasions. Just curious, was it you that coined this phrase, or do you know where it originated?

the phrase came from me in the 1980's. i first began putting it on my pricelist in the early 90's....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Dr. Dodd, for one, disagrees with you:

As Dodd (1987) wrote: "Too many propagation programs are operated under the guise of 'conservation.' When this really means to supply individuals with a sufficient number of pets, this is not conservation but recreational use of wildlife."

Dr. Dodd, for one, disagrees with you:

As Dodd (1987) wrote: "Too many propagation programs are operated under the guise of 'conservation.' When this really means to supply individuals with a sufficient number of pets, this is not conservation but recreational use of wildlife."

Steff, though replying to you is a tiresome practice, "Guise" or no "guise", what it means is that when the population in the wild is gone - there are still species of that said organism living in captivity. "Recreational use of wildlife" or not, it has still proven to be a way to have assurance groups of species that may or may not have a population that will remain stable in the wild.

Clearly Dr. Dodd does not see the pet trade as being a part of conservation, or as a "holding bin" for stock to outsource.

While reintroducing some animals who are extinct in the wild, but exist in captivity has proven problematic (birds in particular) most reptiles do not present the same problems.

I'm not really sure why you are responding to me counter an opinion that is not mine.

If you are so convinced about this, perhaps you had better get on the phone right now and explain everything to him....I'm sure he'll come right round to your way of thinking.

Ms Foertmeyer if you would call Dr Dodd he might say he was wrong and that he's now changed his mind....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Steph, while we all can pretty much agree, you are good at searching for and finding quotes, citations, and opinions contrary to what most of us here believe; we can also all pretty much agree that the context, veracity, validity, legitimacy of such references is questionable at best.

The extent of your firsthand knowledge of said topics is pretty much -- "look what I found".

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Agreed. Quotes can be a very nice seasoning to a good arguement but they are not the substance. If all one usually provides is quotes from somebody else's arguement, without explaining what those quotes mean and why they believe in such quotes, then they are arguing very weakly. Others are likely to conclude that the one doing all the quoting is just a blind follower.

Maybe I'm the only one here who has studied literature, law or philosophy...providing a quote doesn't denote an inclination to blindly follow. It does however provide an example of a point of view...in this case that of someone who has been in the conservation biology field for decades.

Of course no one here has been either willing or able, with well documented research of the caliber which they expect, nay, *demand* from the scientific community, to provide proof the commercialization is the answer when it comes to conservation.

While for some here saying is believing, unsubstantiated assertions aren't enough.

Doesn't the success that has been had with the farming/commercialization of crocodilians sort of speak for itself in many ways, or do you just choose to disregard that?

Be specific. Exactly what crocodilians did you have in mind? And how exactly do you define 'success'.

ALLIGATORS 101..

1967 declared endangered because of NO legal trade..Poaching
197O'S..Alligator farms legalized..NO MORE POACHING because the big money didn't exist because of Alligator Farms.
2010..Over 1 million wild Alligators in Fl..So many in fact Alligator attacks on humans are common and human fatalities occur now almost on an annual basis. One year 3 humans were killed by Alligators here. So many a nuisance Alligator Program had to be implemented...ALL STATES WHERE ALLIGATORS OCCUR POPULATIONS HAVE REBOUNDED.

ONCE AGAIN "CONSERVATION THRU COMMERCIALIZATION" PROVES TO BE THE SALVATION OF AN ENDANGERED SPECIES..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Alligators aren't the only success story...Here are a few other species...Crocodylus porosus...C. niloticus...C. siamensis...C. novaguinea.....At Samut Prakan Thailand my friend Uthen Youngprapakorn maintains and breeds over 100,000 Siamese Crocs that have been offered to be released into the wild anywhere they are needed..The sales of the skins and meat of porosus and siamensis are used to breed and maintain the critically endangered Tomistoma schleggeli. Last year he produced over 400 baby False Gavials. Additionally he has 18-20 other species he breeds in staggering numbers. I only mentioned a few species but there are many more and many more Croc Farms operated worldwide. Most of these are PRIVATELY OWNED AND FOR PROFIT IN SKIN, MEAT. AND SOMETIMES AN ADMISSION PRICE IF THEY ARE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. This is well known and staph is aware if she bothered to look and see if I am right istead of trying to prove me wrong..Google my friend DR PERRON ROSS and see what you find on this subject...SAMUT PRAKAN LIKELY HAS OVER 500,000 CROCODILES ON HIS FARM ALONE. While C. siamensis may go extinct in nature Uthen will ALWAYS have the stock to reintroduce if needed...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Have you forgotten that it has been commercialization that has brought the species you mention to the brink of extinction to begin with?

Loss of habitat. That is the impending and ever present number one danger all wildlife faces.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

This is what is annoying. He answers your question and you totally don't even acknowledge that. You just move on with another question. If it was commercialization that brought the species to the brink then talk about what you think went wrong with it the first time. Tom has shown what can be done with commercialization when it is properly managed.

Think about this what would cost the environment more. One alligator skin purse used for 20 years or a plastic purse that gets thrown away and replaced every six months because it wears out? Or maybe we could use straw purses but I would be willing to bet the one alligator skin purse is alot closer to the straw ones in renewability than the plastic ones are.

The point is look at the whole picture. Chances are the removal from the wild of the original breeding stock at this alligator farm Tom is speaking of was alot more sustainable than the extraction and development of the materials used to make the computers we are typing on now.

I am looking at a fairly complete picture: the cycle began with commercial exploitation.
Try not to digress any further.

Staph it's because of us and especially people with your mentality that got the species in the position their in and it's more commercialization that will make them common again...DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS?..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Don Henley had it right --

" I said, "Now, baby, have you got no shame?"
She just looked at me, uncomprehendingly
Like cows at a passing train. "

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I really don't think you a have even a remote clue as to what my mentality is....

When I said look at the whole picture I meant look at alligators compared to other natural resources like plants, wood, metal; and to other more processed materials like plastic. Then you will see that many herps actually rate a very high renewability.

Thanks.

Exactly...declared Endangered in 1967 being the operative phrase...populations started to bounce back even before farming was legalized (again...the practice had been around since the late 1800's).

If it hadn't been for the initial conservation efforts (protecting the species under the Federal Endangered Species Act), there might not be any alligators left to farm.

The fact that some people chose to ignore the law and continued to poach the animals when they had protected status does not mean that the protected status was ineffective. It just indicates that there are unscrupulous people out there who are willing to annihilate species for a few bucks.

Don't revise history and try to take credit where none is due: commercialization is what drove alligators to the brink to begin with.

here's a quick overview to refresh your memory:
Link

Once again Steph you atempt tp sound smart about something you know nothing about by reading an article and interpreting it the way you want. There was a demand for the product and in the age of get ride of those nasty reptiles there were plenty of people who were willing to help just like the buffalo being exterminated to fight the indians. The farms in the early 1900's were just people collecting babys and raising them. by the 60's they were almost gone and there was still demand so people began to farm them. When the ESA came out there were more on farms than in the wild. The ESA protected them and habitat and made it not lucrative to hunt wild ones because the farmed ones lowered the market price. If they were not being farmed the demand was still there and price would have made it so that people would still have illegaly hunted them. It was the farms that reduced the profits for illeagle hunting and allowed the ESA to work. and now it has been duplicated all around the world. The reason it worked is because everyone was involved the goveronment, scientists, zoos and hobbiest/farmers. I had a long post about the ways the pet trade is a part of conservation but you seem to ignor it. The reason there are not more examples is because private breeders are kept from being part of the solution by the ones who make the money off conservation and not given access to animals to work with. It is not to big a stretch to see the sucess private breeders have had with the animals available to them to believe they would have simmilar sucess with ones that need help. An interesting observation is a case of the Cyclura Lewisii 2 years ago 2 babys were prodeced at a zoo and they had a press release about it being the first ones they produced and the were so proud and they are criticly endangered Bla, Bla, Bla. The private same year private breeders all over the country probobly produced 75 to 100 hybrids (because that is all they allow us to have acsess to) There are probobly over 1000 animals that private breeders have produced and I am sure it costs them 1000's of dollars for each one they produce. They would be better off contracting some of the dozen people in the private comunity thay have had great sucess in breeding them to breed them for them and buy the babys for $1000 ea which is 3 times what they get for the ones they breed now and they would get more bebys for less money. But they don't get paid for results and sometimes they make more money for less results in admition, grants, and donations to help a criticly endangered animal that is so hard to breed.
Enough for now!!!!
Rob

Revisionist history. You're selectively ignoring the fact that commercial pressures (such as hunting, poaching, collection for the pet trade and smuggling) drove many species to the brink in the first place, and yet seem willing to present yourselves as the sole saviors.

As Natsamjosh said in a different thread:

"Kind of like firemen who secretly start fires and then try to become heroes for putting them out. Then they blame others for lighting/causing the fires."

Manifest Destiny was in no small part financed by the railroads: bison hides were big business. Commercial exploitation. And the breeding stock for the herds we have now came from a the Bronx Zoo, and the efforts of conservationists. In New York.

And still, while so many here are willing to pick apart, line by line, the work of any scientist who's work is at variance with your opinions, no one here has stepped up to the plate to provide the same level of documentation that is demanded of others....so far everything presented has been simply anecdotal and not backed up with any real facts or figures.

So no, I'm not convinced: there's an reluctance to hold yourselves to the same standards to which you hold your 'adversaries'.

Steph your rebuttles are a joke!!!
No one is ignoring anything except maby you. You try to attach the term "comercial" to the arguement to as if all comercial activity is the same and no one ever claimed to be the sole savior. Again you atempt to misdirect the conversation to fit your agenda. I guess this is your "law" training trying to get a reasonable doubt by throwing out acusations. here a a quote from the post you are addressing:
"The reason it worked is because everyone was involved the goveronment, scientists, zoos and hobbiest/farmers."
Really sounds like we are the sole savior!!!! LOL
Everyone knows that the main cause of animal problems are habbitat distruction and and exploytation pressures. You like to try to use the word "comercial" exploytation so it fits with your comrecial is bad but guess what zoos are are comercial as well. Its funny you bring up the saviors of the buffalo, the saviors were not scientists but regular people who wanted to help it is a good thing they were not blocked people like you.
You are the one who wants to rewrite history, Zoos were built to make money not help animals and now we want to call the ones who started them conservationists. They were regular people with a love of animals and put them in cages for there own enjoyment and others and they made money for doing it.
I guess we should all call ourselves non proffits because a salery would be more than most of us currently make off our animals and most people at non proffits work there for money and if they did not get paid they would leave, yea truely passionate people.
There is no way to convince you of anything, If your cup is already full then you can hold no more water.
Rob

Here's a quick fact: you guys don't exactly qualify the word "commercialization" when you use the term.
If you want to be understood, be accurate, thorough and articulate.

FACT REMAINS I DID QUALIFY THE WORD COMMERCIALIZATION IF YOU WOULD BOTHER TO READ A POST BELOW ANSWERING AARON..ONCE MORE OPEN MOUTH INSERT FOOT...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

COMMENT ON THIS POST WHERE ONCE AGAIN YOU PUT YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH AS USUAL? GARGLING WITH DESENEX MAY BE HELPFUL...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Right.

"CONSERVATION THROUGH COMMERCIALIZATION"

You really went into depth with that.

I DID AND PROVED I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG....JUST WONDERING WHY YOU DIDN'T COMMENT ON YOUR STATEMENT ABOUT NOT QUALIFYING THE COMMERCIALIZATION WHICH I CLEARLY HAD ON A LOWER POST. WERE YOU WRONG AGAIN STEPH?..LOL..ONCE I THOUGHT I WAS WRONG BUT I WAS MISTAKEN...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

No need to shout. You haven't even linked to articles and/or studies that prove your point. You'd expect that level of proof from the Gordon Rodda's of the world: why hold yourself to a lower standard of professionalism?

HA HA You know I'm right but you refuse to aknowledge. I KNOW THAT AND YOU KNOW THAT! Your just unhappy that I won't let you out of your little corner. You have NO ONE but you to blame for being there. At least I haven't made you wear a dunce hat [YET]..LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom has actual numbers from his own production he doesn't need to "google" studies off of wickipedia. Gordon rodda took a look at the latitude lines on a globe and matched them up with the range of an indian python which not only is a different subspecies of python molorus but from what I've been reading lately may not even be the same species as P.m. bivitattus. Then he compared the range of p. molorus with the same latitudes over here and tried to figure in global climate change which not only is not actually a proven theory but assuming it is true has no accurate predictability as to whether or not it's effects actually would benefit northward migration of such animals.
s far as the latitude thing goes I currently technically live further north in fl. than I did in Tx. and yet I can grow a far greater range of tropical and subtropical plants here than I could in Tx. Latitude is only part of the climate equation. A look at a USDA planting zone map that you can find in any gardening book could have told him that and even then similar climate zones are not always equal. Central Fl. is mostly zone 9 as is a large chunk of coastal California (possibly even southern Oregon.) Citrus does well here but in Northern Cal. it does not because although it may experience similar lows in the winter than us the summer time temps do not get high enough for citrus to grow properly. It is the same with plants that grow out there that will not grow well here as well. I could write a whole book detailing such parallels but I'll stop here. The fact is I know this and I'm not a scientist working for the USGS so why couldn't gordon rodda figure this out.

we only need to be thorough and articulate for you. Everyone else on here seems bright enough to get what's being talked about.

bison hides were big business most of the Bison were left to rot hides and all. The primary purpose for killing the bison was to defeat the indians by destroying their food source. This is a basic war time tactic that has been around for thousands of years.
While commercial exploitation may be responsible for extirpation of some animals it is far from being the primary cause. Habitat destruction is hands down the number one cause for species decline. That species of croc Tom was talking about (Tomistoma Schleglii.) inhabits peat and freshwater swamps in southeast asia both habitats are in high demand for conversion to agriculture and industrial use. Here's another good one for you. All these shows on animal rights planet that deal with orangutans LOVE to rally on about the "Illegal pet trade" doing them in yet very little attention is given to the real cause of their decline which is palm oil plantations and the reason is because they don't want everybody putting 2 and 2 together between dead orangs and gibbons and slow lorises, Bornean elephants and countless species and all those advertisers for dish soaps and shampoos and conditioners.
It's really hard to run a campaign telling everybody about the birds your dish soap saved when in the back of their mind people are wondering how many orangs were killed to make that bottle of dish soap.
What it is, is misdirection. You point the finger at everyone else around you and yell loudly enough and hopefully no-one will notice YOUR wrong doings.

Great post. This is the point I was trying to make about field herpers who brag that they only take pictures. I am not saying that all collection is good but if someone collected only a certain amount, then it might have actually caused less impact on the environment to collect than it did to take pictures.

Yes. That's what I've been saying. The ones making decisions are not going to implicate themselves and put their livelihoods at risk, so they look for a convenient scape goat. The AR people are simply a convenient ally. The academics get sole access.
It's all about money.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yawn.

That fall-back position of yours is worn out. And frankly it's hypocritical, too, since the highly vocal interests behind opposing restrictive legislation are economic ones too. How many here are dealers who don't want their livelihoods/income sources to be adversely impacted? USARK represents the interests of dealers first and foremost, right.

Of course that's what USARK represents. Would you think they represented any other group? We are being impacted....READ THIS: UNITED STATES ASSCIATION OF REPTILE KEEPERS..Surely even you can understand this...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Most of us on here are NOT dealers we are hobbyists. Reptile keeping is alot like music. Some people make a living at it most do not they make a few extra bucks selling offspring that help pay some of the expenses of their hobby at best.
I have had people ask me if this is a good way to make money. I have always told them to get into stocks or comic books or stamps anything but reptiles. I also tell them that even it made good money if you didn't love reptiles this would be a horrible choice.

I think the vast majority of reptile dealers started out with a genuine intrest in herps. If they have a bussiness I think in most cases it is really the American dream, doing what you love and making a living at it. I can acknowledge that there are bad apples and some dealers do place money ahead of the animals. That is true for everything though, from restaraunt owners to used car salesmen. This only means we need sensible regulations.

In general I think wildlife agencies have little, if any respect for herpers. I think sometimes they even see herpers as a threat because we are willing to do parts of their jobs on our own dime.
What is most common though is, IMHO, wildlife agencies have a total lack of intrest in managing herps as a resource they way they do for game animals. They would prefer to just make herps illegal instead of managing them. What money these agencies have, they would rather spend on managing game animals and fish because there is alot more demand from the public and the agencies can make alot more money selling licenses.

This is a real shame because it results in making criminals out of hobbyists not because herps aren't harvestable, rather because the agencies don't want to manage them.

For my part, I do not keep and have never kept any of the big 9. Nor have I ever kept any venomous herps. I have bred some herps and even sold some of their captive born offspring but I don't consider myself a dealer because I have never actually made a profit. What I do, I do for personal enjoyment. Yet I am doing all I can to help fight this national ban on the big 9. The reason I am is very simple. It's because I don't think it's fair.

I think we are at another crossroads in the herp hobby. In the 1970's and 80's we saw an end to most commercial collecting. Now the hobby has gotten much bigger and I think we are at a point where the hobby will either be crushed, or it will become mainstream. I would rather have the hobby become mainstream because then we could see some real managment of herps. I think agencies would rather just see the hobby crushed. That is what's scary and that is why we need to be very critical of regulations that are not supported by science. If we are critical of our lawmakers we just might be able to see herps seriously managed.

Yours was an eloquent well thought out post. I was lucky enough to have been born at the right time to influence this Industry we have today in it's formation. At that time I was an executive with Sears Roebuck & Co. making $20,000 plus annually in the early 1970's. I left this position after spending almost 7 years working for the Company to pursue my dream. I DIDN'T DO THIS BECAUSE OF MONEY OR SECURITY. I did it because I loved herps. The fact is I was scared. I had a house , mortgage, wife, and a daughter to worry about. Nevertheless my passion drove me with a vengeance and I never looked back. There were bad and good times but I made it and still am doing it on a level few acheive even though basically retired. The reason why is I simply can't imagine my world without herps. I haven't bred the big snakes for many years and the law would not affect me at all but I'm fighting for the rights of others who may never have the choices I did if laws are enacted. This business was never about $$ with me. NOT THEN AND NOT NOW...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

.

All of these pressures that you mention, direct or indirect, are due to commercialization.

Again you throw out the term "comercialism" in a blanket use to atempt to make a point! You are using an example of completely unregulated comercialism in an atempt to taint all forms of comercialism and it shows your dihonesty or ignorance I don't know you so I can't say which it is. Both example of unregulated comercialization is so extreem as to being goveronment sponsered extermination of a species.
Bad laws are bad just like bad conservation is bad. In your black and white world you seem to think if it has a comercial label its bad and if it has a conservation lable it good. You are very dogmatic aboud everything and your ego is writting checks your experience cant cash!
Rob

The benefits we now recieve from these alligator farms is much better than banning alone would have been. Now people view them as a resource to be protected, managed and utilized.

They view them as a species to be protected because....here it comes.....they were nearly driven to extinction by commercialization. Which is how they obtained protected status in the first place. Lesson learned.

Farming finally caught up with alligators a good while AFTER they were declared endangered. It was probably only because of the endangered listing that there were any alligators left to farm.

Please stop trying to twist facts.

I seriously do not know how you know so much about the subject. Must have read it somewhere, huh! I still have a copy of a period Audubon Magazine with a cover feature article on the subject.

The simple fact is, the particular states that protect Alligator populations, now allow hunting and in increasing numbers, and do so to earn revenue for those states' coffers.

Demonstrating an economic value and incentive for survival is the only way to save most threatened animals, whether it be in the U.S., Africa, Asia, South America, or wherever. Humans are basically selfish and greedy by nature and the only real way to keep the animals around is by demonstrating economic benefits. That's just one of the cold hard facts in regard to the unending Human exploitation of our Planet.

There must be a diversity of strategies when undertaking this challenge. Looking to Authority, or should I say abdicating one's responsibility to authority, is a cop-out. Authority's track record is dismal. We've already been over the reasons many times before, and with examples. In fact, you've previously acknowledged a few of my examples as valid.

You need to get over yourself. You are obsessively judgmental. Why not try being a bit more pragmatic and open minded.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

DDT was probably every bit as responsible for their decline as commercial demand was just as it was in birds. I believe it was a few years after 1967 that DDT was banned. It does have a serious effect on testosterone and estrogen level in alligators and it signifigantly reduces their fertility. We have a lake full of affected gators here in central fl. that has had several studies done on the population there.
Oh yeah and when you drain swamps to put in subdivisions which has been going on here for years what do you suppose happens to those alligators?

I don't drain swamps and put in subdivisions. I actually am anti-sprawl for a variety of different reasons.

However, isn't important to keep in mind that the same property rights that you want for yourself (vis-a-vis herp keeping) are the same property rights that real estate owners enjoy. Including land developers? I'm sure they would view any restrictions on their activities as excessive government interference.

It's a complicated world. Thanks in part to Rachel Carson and conservationists like her, we no longer have DDT on the market (BTW did you know that Tom DeLay went into politics because he was so angry that the Gov't adversely interfered with his livelihood...as a pesticide company owner. Banning DDT pretty much put him out of business.) Part of the groundswell for 'small government' came as a result of environmental laws.

you of putting in subdivisions. I really don't care if you do or do not support subdivisions nor does it matter if I do either. What I mentioned was that hunting alone was not the sole cause of decline in alligator populations.
The fact of the matter is over collection of reptiles has far less effect on their populations than does habitat destruction. If people do not keep animals in captivity they will be gone. What amazes me is you see nothing wrong with your doing this with box turtles yet you seem to find fault in others doing the same with what ever species they choose to work with.

My mistake...I thought for a moment that you referred to me personally.

And, for the record, under ordinary circumstances I probably wouldn't have any herps beyond those making their homes on my property. The turtles I have were removed from a construction site in advance of the 'development' of a shopping center.

A-typical situation.

Because my Original wild caught pair of Standings geckos were removed prior to there patch of forest being burned to produce charcoal.
Oddly enough I have a group of Cyclemmys dentata that were rescued from becoming someones dinner in Indonesia.

Almost all asain turtles were rescued from becoming someones diner in a chinese food market!!
Rob

I am a civil libertarian and have been for many years. I am pretty sure Tom Delay is a republican but not totally sure as I really see very difference between democrats and republicans. Either way I don't give a rat's axe why tom delay got into politics.

He's a proponent of small government. If he were still in office he'd probably be re-styling himself as a Libertarian.

Tom Delay is the original Verminator. As slimy as they come.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

There is more than one lesson here. The other lesson is that with managment we can harvest some herps from even small populations and reproduce them in captivity to the point were the species can be used for any purpose that they would have been used for with a wild harvest. We do not need to drive a species to the brink of extinction in order to do this but we can do this even with species that are in danger of extinction.

You are going to try and tell Yngwie Malmsteen how to play guitar.

Commercialization is a word that can be defined by lots and lots of activities. You're using the word in very broad terms when people are trying to get into the detailes of it's application in a very specific instance.

Aaron, you are correct. Commercialization could mean collecting live ones for sale, killing for animal products, big game or small game hunting, eco-tourism, tourist attractions, etc. In other words many commercial activities fit the bill, that is anything that doesn't detroy the habitat...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Exactly.

'Conservation through commercialization' is a phrase ready made for misinterpretation. Or to allow for plausible deniability. Very open-ended no matter how one looks at it.

At it's heart though, it is about profitability.

IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY. IT'S ALWAYS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE ABOUT MONEY. SO WHAT! If you acheive a positive result is that not better than a negative one?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

And that is certainly fine...the problem arises when those with very specific activities in mind content themselves with using over-simplified slogans such as "Conservation Through Commercialization" and expect the rest of the world to immediately grasp unspecified nuances of meaning.

MY MISTAKE STEPH, I thought you were smart enough to understand this..MY BAD..LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

The "bad" here is the habit of being passive aggressive enough to make statements that are bound to be misinterpreted. Professional victimhood in the extreme. Those pesky firefighters come to mind. Again.

Tom and Staph would be making out on the kitchen counter right now!!!!!!LOL
Rob

If she were here I'd teach her a lot about herps...I'd just have to get her out of the corner and get the Dunce hat off her. This is my "CHEAP" ENTERTAINMENT HOWEVER. ON SECOND THOUGHT CAN YOU SEND ME A PIC OF YOURSELF STEPH? Of course you'd [is that a right contraction] have to deal with my elf girl Patty and she's a tough girl...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

FACE THE CORNER STEPH...No talking with the dunce hat on...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"Conservation through commercialization" was just a slogan on a price list. It was just designed to get people to think. It was not meant to be a comprehensive anysis or the be all end of a discussion.

Aaron you hit the nail on the head with the slogan. It's a short statement that has many meanings or applicable uses but is NO magic answer to the problem of vanishing herps. I just read a new paper documenting the rapid decline of a few species of European snakes in protected and seemingly healthy ecosystems. Here in Florida the getulus Kingsnake population began to crash in the 1970's. It is unknown why this is happening. On Bimini in the Bahama's the endemic Boa is almost gone and as of yet we don't know why. I'm involved now in an ongoing research program there to investigate why this has happened. Wildlife today face an evergrowing plethora of threats to their long term survival. Some of these threats we can't even identify much less do anything about....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

This is pointless guys...you should know that by now. Some people are just NEVER wrong.

"While for some here saying is believing, unsubstantiated assertions aren't enough."

So sayeth the Queen of "Do as I say, not as I do!" Or, perhaps, Stephanie, are you changing your ways, and will you now start to substantiate YOUR ASSERTIONS with proof?

Let's begin with one of your first assertions on this forum, which I asked for proof of, but you to which you never responded. Where is your proof, Stephanie, that feral Burmese Pythons are indeed a serious problem in the Florida Everglades National Park?

There you go again with that air of superiority, that elitist intellect. What is your point?

It is painfully obvious this is just all about you and all about you having to prove something. Not really about any Herp Law Center and Forum issues at all.

Just a platform for Steph to prove her prejudice and elitist bias, along with her flair to exhibit her superior intellect. LOL.

I have been to more foreign countries than you could imagine. I know first hand about the Deepwater Horizon debacle. I used to work for a company that merged to become a large part of that company. The rigs I worked on are still in that fleet. I used to fly Pan Am 103 home from Europe every 2 months. I was in Mogadishu before Black Hawk Down.

Have philosophy, literature, and law classes under my belt at a State University level.

What makes you think you are so GD special? You are nothing but an over indulged spoiled brat of a Daddy's girl.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I am not claiming commercialization is the only answer. I do believe that it is not the demon you seem to be saying it is. I don't even really know what you think because your arguements so far have don't demonstrate any firm belief about anything one way or the other. Quotes and allusions is mainly what you have been posting. I did try to get more in depth on an earlier post regarding Isaac Asimov but you didn't reply.

It's all about Steph. Her one-liners, comebacks, and sound bites are nothing but her chronic insistence that she is a clever girl of superior mind and moral character. Everything she says is dripping with contempt for us and for what we believe.

There is no argument of any substance to prove any claim.

None of those quips will convince anyone coming across these threads one way or another, other than that she likes to argue and she likes to have the last word.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Perhaps staph should ask Dr Wayne King and Dr Perron Ross at the Florida State Museum who they aggree with. In all respect Dr Dodd [who I know personally] has not even close to the amount of knowledge I do about this subject and he would likely tell you so. Also look at the date of his statement. "THE TIMES THEY ARE A CHANGING" staph[a B. Dylan quote]....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Actually based on the info you have given us one cannot tell who Dr. Dodd is refering too. All he says is "too many", he doesn't mention any specific person, persons or bussiness.

This is a good example of a comment that contains a built in "exit strategy". If Dr. Dodd ever got into an arguement with somebody over his statement and appeared to be loosing, he could easily exit the dispute and recover nicely by simply saying he wasn't refering to this or that person. He simply had said "too many".

If even one person out of thousands fit his description and he considered that person to be one too many then he is correct and cannot loose the arguement. Since it is virtually impossible to have an arguement with everybody who might fit his description at the same time, he will almost certainly be able to say he was refering to someone who is not there to defend themselves. Isn't that convenient for Dr. Dodd?

In most cases Dr. Dodd would not be arguing with more than one or two people who might fit his description so at any given time there would likely be thousands of people and bussinesses he might be refering to that would not be there to defend themselves. Thus he could give the impression that any number of them, preferably a high one, would fit his description.

Your "quote" also flies in the face of my learned conclusion [big difference]. The key word is "recreational" which actually means from usage pertaining to amuse a group or individuals. My expression clearly states commercial use which is NOT recreational use. The by product of commercial use would be excess stock of said species that would be avialable to any management authority for any conservation based program. You are not even "good" at looking up COMMENTS MADE BY OTHR PEOPLE. MANY TIMES YOU TAKE A SINGLE STATEMENT OUT OF CONTEXT AND PUBLISH IT AS A FACT. The real fact is you have a very poor understanding of the issues discussed so to be confrontational you with great haste rush to google key words and make yourself look and sound foolish. I won't go into specifics here as you already have done so much to discredit any statement you have or will ever make. Instead of quoting other folks why don't you take this subject or any issue being discussed and give your views based on your "vast amount of experience with said subject". Just the fact that neither I nor others have ever before heard of you until you became the proverbial "tar baby" of this forum indicates that you either have little to no experience in the Herp Industry either commercially [bad word I know], academically, or recreationally. Does the company "HAVEN DESIGNWORKS LLC" in Richmond Va. belong to you or are you an employee? What are the goals of this LLC company. Whatever it does the owners want little to no liability for their actions as LLC means Limited Liability Company. Do you design clothes or entire ecosystems? I actually know your "real life" qualifications but perhaps you could explain how learned you are to others here who might not know. As you are aware my past and present are well known as I make no attempt to hide in cyberspace as so many others do. Again the thread has been hijacked disccussing potential problems and solutions to the poor wildlfe that perhaps will be adversly affected by the BP disaster into an unproductive agumentatve thread having little to do with the subject matter. Is it possible for you to "part the GULF OF MEXICO [OILS SPILL AND ALL WITH YOUR STAFF? MEANING ROD OR STICK NOT PEOPLE]"and allow the poor creatures to escape what might be certain death...thanks..Again you're invited to join USARK which is a learned organization staffed with the leading pro's in the Industry from all walks of life including commercial, academics, etc. all working toward a common goal....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

C'mon Tom haven't you ever enjoyed the thrill of getting up at 3:30 in the morning to take care of feeder rodent (and lagamorph) colonies before going to work at a full time job? I mean it's such a blast everyone should try it. Or what about having to keep late hours on cold winter nights to make sure everything is protected properly and THEN having to get up at 3:30 or 4:00 (slept in a half hour) to feed things and go about your day? Why that's even more recreational. Or the missed vacations because you can't find someone you trust to take care of things while you are gone. And lets not forget all the bites and scratches and tail whippings involved in what we do. It's really recreational isn't it?
Personally I think anyone who could make such a statement or quote that statement from somebody else has never done much serious work with reptiles. Quite honestly they probably aren't up to the task.
I always like the insinuation about all of us being "In it for the money" as well. A few months ago, I think Brad chambers put it the best way I ever heard it. He wrote "how do you make a small fortune in reptiles? You start with a larger fortune."

Great post! Maybe from now on when I come home from a long day at work (where I actually have to produce tangible, accurate results or else I'll get fired) and my wife is screaming at me since half the house smells like the atomic bomb which is Indigo snake crap, I'll call Steph to come enjoy recreational pleasure of cleaning out the cage.

And I guess when I bring my snakes to schools and museums to educate people (or donate skins for research), that is considered "recreation" to people like Steph.

I just hope at some point "academics", "researchers" and "scientists" figure out that arrogance and ego hurt the cause of science, not help it.

Good stuff!

I've been away till now. Had some heavy rains last night. About 5 inches. Lightning blew out the transformer. Had to get a new one.

Well anyway, at least I'm smart enough to know when the girls need to relive themselves. Took these two female YBS's out and they sniffed the ground a bit and commenced to laying all in about 15 minutes.

You see that's their strategy. Dark cloudy nights, moist soil and water to wash away clues and to quickly hide signs of the nest. Most turtle nests are preyed upon within the first 48 hours.

But hey, you guys all already know all that. Just sharing some personal experience for others that may be lurking.

By the way, one of those girls I've had since a hatchling in 1993. Got her from Rick Vandyke. Anyone remember him? The other female is one of her kids.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Those are "Recreational" Sliders, by the way. lol
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

"Does the company "HAVEN DESIGNWORKS LLC" in Richmond Va. belong to you or are you an employee? What are the goals of this LLC company. Whatever it does the owners want little to no liability for their actions as LLC means Limited Liability Company. Do you design clothes or entire ecosystems? I actually know your "real life" qualifications but perhaps you could explain how learned you are to others here who might not know."

You've hit "pay dirt" here, Tom.

Given your long history in the business and vast, perhaps you could answer this accurately for me. Are axlotls currently extinct in the wild or are they just critically endangered? I know they are cites I for sure but was wondering about their current status. Are they still the most commonly kept amphibian in captivity or have they been beaten out by the pacman frogs?
What about hogg island boas? I know they were at one point almost gone in the wild. Of course with them there's that whole hybridizing thing but still I think there are definitely more in captivity than in the wild.
I am sure you see where I am going here

axlotls are just about gone in the wild, but are heavily bred in captivity. There was an hour long special a couple months ago on them.

John, I have space to breed almost anything and the skill to do it but many things are almost already gone here. The E. Indigo is one good example. I have room to produce HUNDREDS of them but the powers that be frown on us breeding them...They will not have to worry soon as there won't be any left....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yeah. As long as we let those clowns call the tune, you're right.

They sit in judgment of us all. As long as we have some guidelines to follow, should be no problem. The thing is they are implying/inferring we are not capable of doing the right thing. We don't have the will or the means to do things right. We're going to pollute gene pools. We're going to introduce diseases. We're going to release...bla...bla...bla... What is their track record? And the cost efficiency? When we do it economies are made, not burdened. Results are so much better, too.

They say they're the guys with the white hats come to Wild America's rescue ...from us of all things. We're the guys in the black hats according to them. We've got to turn this conversation around. We've got to make the case to America that we're the salvation of God's creatures, not them. We're the guys in the white hats. I'm tired of them talking trash about me. Aren't all of you?

I'm serious. America is being sold a bill of goods by special interests. And if America was ever ready to listen and become receptive to that line of speech, they certainly are now. Look who's out there skimming whatever oil is being cleaned up. The private sector. That's who. The very ones Big Daddy wouldn't allow into the fray at first. Why? Because Authority said they were not competent. Stay out of the way. You might get hurt. Let Authority handle it.

Do you see a pattern here?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yes. Commercial breeders are yet another special interest group.

I'm not a commercial breeder and I do not consider the lay hobbyist a commercial breeder.

Self-righteous individuals such as yourself tend to spin any commerce at all between hobbyists as a strictly mercenary endeavor solely for the purpose of extracting one's dollar for one's pound of reptile flesh. Couldn't be further from the truth.

The reality is, given appropriate guidance, the private sector is the only real hope for survival, so many Reptiles and Amphibians may have.

You are nothing but a reptile snob. No one is as good as you. No one's motives are as pure. No one is as worthy. No one is as competent and capable. That crap sure gets old.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John, if I may throw in a few peices of emails I sent to a friend that grows LA irises.

I think the government officials are influenced in this case by AR groups like PETA and HSUS to stop people from keeping them at all. Those groups have loads of money and lobby to get bad animal laws passed.
I would have no problem for the government to run this if they did a good job of it. I know they have in many other areas. But in this case there are too many extremist animal rights people behind it. At least one of those groups said on there web page something like "there goals will be met by any means possible". In other words to lie cheat and deceive if needed or maybe even worse.
One problem with giving the government control over something is, the job they do when they get that control is directed by the control of special interest.
It is for this reason I feel it is a bad idea to let one group be it government or other, to have all of the control.
It is better not to put all of the eggs in one basket.
As for any of them harassing me they don't as I really don't keep reptiles like I used to per say. But I still keep a few.
I just kept the pair of hognose snakes I found to see the eggs hatch and get a chance to record the offspring.
They will be locality collected and not cross contaminated by any other reptiles or anything else so I can in good conscience let them go in the place where I found the parents if need be.

There are some scientist now that have and are putting out scientific data that is helping a little. Some have shown some of the papers and data being put out are not true.
One being pushed by the USGS themselves is not peer reviewed. Another paper put out by another group of scientist has shown the non peer reviewed paper can't be true for the most part.

Most of the people behind much of the regulation on reptiles don't actually know much if anything about them. This is another problem with the government regulating them. How can you regulate what you don't really know about?
For this reason they should be putting the reptile keepers more in the loop as to how to structure reptile laws. Most of us gladly support laws that regulate take if it is warranted.
I honestly feel this way for the sake of the animals. The only way to really combat extinction with the way this world works is to allow captive breeding. If breeders do not keep good breeding standards though it doesn't do much good. Many of us want to keep them locality true and pure. Some will make a wide cross hybrid. As interesting as the man made hybrids may be some of us consider them to be junk useless snakes. Not to be cruel to the man made hybrids but they have no natural application. Some argue that even a pure locality captive bred population has no value to nature. I say genetically they still have most if not all of the genes from the pool they where collected in. And if the wild population does go extinct, the captive population would be a better choice than none at all. They would at least reset the original ecological balance. Therefor possibly helping to save the other species that may have evolved to rely on them, be it for helping to control the numbers to a safer more disease free level for the species they eat, or by being food for those that eat them.

One more thing is that it is a poor excuse they use when they say because some people are not being responsible that they have to punish us all.
If someone robs a bank does everyone go to jail? No. Why not? Someone was not being responsible in the bank?
Well I am sure you get why those things are the way they are. So why not being able to see it is not right to punish all reptile keepers for the sins of a few.
If the government is so good at taking care of things, then why can't they do any better here?
As I said, it is because of the special interest groups.
It is not the smarter, better or a more moral way to shut down captive breeding, and in the same blow make it so thousands of reptiles in captivity get displaced (and most die) from the keepers due to the laws you passed. It has no real conservation application to shut down captive breeding.
When the real problem is development and some other things like possibly global climate change (be it man made or not) and fire ants that were introduced by the food trade (Coffee if I remember right) it makes no since to shut down captive breeding and make no allowances for it.
Maybe in the far future or not so far future when we have so many bad extinctions, and they are trying to figure out how to use the frozen DNA they have in gene saving vaults, to bring back to life what went extinct, maybe just maybe they will get what I meant when I said animal keepers could be used as genetic saving pools to pad against extinction. I feel any captive produced animals would be arguably better than Frankenstein animals.
But depending on what special interest group is behind it as to if they think I am right or wrong.

This pretty well sums it up for me.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

WELL SAID ERIC....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thanks Tom. That means a lot to hear that from you.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

"One problem with giving the government control over something is, the job they do when they get that control is directed by the control of special interest.
It is for this reason I feel it is a bad idea to let one group be it government or other, to have all of the control.
It is better not to put all of the eggs in one basket."

This is a very good point and deserves a thread of it's own. For example a species gets protected by political party A. Later political party B gets elected and removes or weakens the protection. Another danger is when so many activities get regulated people begin to loose contact with nature. Once that happens it is easier for the government to "sell" nature to the highest bidding special intrest. I am not just talking about keeping herps either; there was a study recently that looked at how just walking by a massasauga on a trail can disturb it's behavior. It is not far fetched to think access to some areas will be closed to all public activity, even just walking a trail.

Aaron, much of what you said is already being done. Here in TX there are parks that do not allow you to go off of the trail.
I think in some protected areas it may be OK to have areas where people are not allowed if a species there needs it. But for the most part most animals are not horribly traumatized by people passing by. They react of course but this is not going to cause an extinction. Most of the snakes including massasaugas in areas where I have lived can be found in barn yard areas where people are all the time. I have found gravid ones there and they seam to be doing just find. The idea that the least little contact by man is going to cause a major crash in the eco system is like a hair splitting butterfly effect theory. Sure it could be plausible. But the fact is that given the numbers involved here because everything equates to math, the miniscule value in an animals reaction to a man passing by is not enough to cause an ecological crash.
Also in some of the studies I feel the numbers they give are just best guesses at best and at worst flat out fudged. Population densities naturally flux so any population would need to be studied for a good while before we could be sure it is really declining and not just fluxing.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

>>Yes. Commercial breeders are yet another special interest group.

"Special interest" groups only exist because our government is not working the way it is supposed to.

Please forgive my (de lunatico) inquirendo, but is the phrase central equidistant alignment pursuant to but krack allowed by the provisions of the TOS?

I get it! LOL.

Re: I don't place much blame on the government for this one. Unless you want talk about who let BP drill out there in the first place. It was the private sector who spilled the oil. There are who knows how many private companies scrambling to be involved in the cleanup and reap financhial rewards. One of which in might add I actually bought stock in just a month or so before the spill. If the goverment just let them all run around willy nilly testing every proposed solution there would be chaos.

Apparently they have only the most marginal protection in Louisiana. According to the gov't website (link below), there are no take or possession limits (except size and season), nor are there captive breeding restrictions.
Link

....gulf coast. I have no idea about alabama but given the recent turtle regs in tx. I can guess there as to being able to captive breed them. Here in Fl. as far back as 1995 you were allowed a personal possession limit of one diamondback terrapin per person per household and as with box turtles breeding is discouraged.

If you consider all the mileage of estuarine shoreline habitat in the Louisiana marshes and delta, that would be potentially the largest reservoir of suitable habitat for Malaclemys in the United States. What are there, somewhere around 6 subspecies?
The ones along the Florida Panhandle and along the West Coast of Florida would probably be the subspecies/populations most at risk. And possibly the Mangrove Terrapin. They are pretty cool in their own right.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John quite possibly the Ornates like I breed and the Mangrove Terrapins are likely the rarest of any of the subspecies in the U.S....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com