Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted this already just to let you all know in case you've already read it. People think hybrids are just two seperate spieces interbreeding, this is false. Another person claimed I am someone else, and that I'm "hiding" this is not true.

These definitions are taken right from websters, not my personal definitions. People told me to post facts, here they are
1.Hybrid Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

Genetic dissimilar parents, can be animals from different localities of the same spieces. Granted it does say "especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races." And what are you bringing to this discussion keith? your opinion is just about all. I may be new to this forum but I am not new to these boards or to the "debate" over hybridizing animals.

Just in case youre not sure what a variety, species or race is let me define them for you, ok?

variety Biology.
A taxonomic subdivision of a species consisting of naturally occurring or selectively bred populations or individuals that differ from the remainder of the species in certain minor characteristics.
An organism, especially a plant, belonging to such a subdivision.

speciesBiology.
A fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus and consisting of related organisms capable of interbreeding. See table at taxonomy.
An organism belonging to such a category, represented in binomial nomenclature by an uncapitalized Latin adjective or noun following a capitalized genus name, as in Ananas comosus, the pineapple, and Equus caballus, the horse.

race Biology.
An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.

Call me a newb just because I'm proving my point?

p.s. Curiosity was already taken, and my biggest snake is named curiosity, so i changed the spelling a bit. As if everyone's name on this site is spelled correctly.

and that's being polite. The fundamental principle to reading anything, is actually understanding and comprehending what one has read. In order for that to be accomplished, said individual needs to have a relative knowledge base from which to compare and contrast the information presented to accurately ascertain it's relevancy and place it into the proper context. Possession of the aforementioned criterion is apparently absent. In other words, you could not be more wrong if you tried. Please, just stop posting. My goodness, I truly wonder how it feels to be so unknowing.

This is not a slam, I'm seriously in awe of your post.
Eimon

Sorry, I meant to type "Please just stop posting THIS." I didn't mean don't post at all about anything else.

E

this point...

>>>>>>Genetic dissimilar parents, can be animals from different localities of the same spieces.

Technically, two animals of the SAME species and SAME
locality can be genetically dissimilar. Does that make
those locality specific breedings hybrids as well? This
is what is wrong with your reasoning as I see it.

Joe

NOBODY WILL GET HURT! So EVERTHING is a hybrid by YOUR definition. Gee how come the herp Industry hasn't grasped your concept? LOL

You still haven't said who you are - therefore you are a troll. Not only a troll, but a confused troll - AND THAT IS BAD!

So what are you afraid of?

So tell us about you and your credentials, besides your little handy "Mr. Webster"

Cheers

Kerby...

hey, i'm a dude in texas, Named "Dallas" for real no joke
we are all trolls ,

I agree. I enjoy my anonymity and it's not harming anyone.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

hybrids are the offspring from mating different species. So a Cornsnake x Cal King cross produces hybrids.

Animals produced by mating individuals of different subspecies are termed intergrades. Technically, this term is reserved for naturally occuring crosses in areas where two subspecies come together, and doesn't really apply to a Honduran Milk x Sinaloan Milk cross.

There is no real "biological" term reserved for crosses between allopatric subspecies in captivity other than the terms used by the floricultural community. They simply call such mutts variants.

To each their own, but any discussion of "purity" in most captive lineages of herps is laughable.....particularly in regard to Honduran Milks. Unless you have locality data for your animals, any mating you do is producing a variety mutt. The fact that you are selecting parents for a certain suite of characters that you prefer means you are throwing "purity" out the window! The moment we started trying to eliminate black tipping and breed for the brightest tangerines, we might as well be breeding them with carpet pythons. There is no real "purity" in captive populations.
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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

You are absolutely correct.

Breeding 2 cal kings together does not result in a hybrid! If you look at them as "mutts" so be it, but "mutts" is not a herp term LOL. You can have locality and non-locality, but because they are not locality-specific does not make them mutts. IMO

Kerby...

That depends on how many calif kings one has caught and seen in the wild. IMO if you look for a desert striper from Scissors crossing and then a Newport, Mendota king or a high band count desert from the Mohave your take might be a little different on the mutt thing.

That wasn't my opinion of what a hybrid was, its the definition of what a hybrid is. I'm sorry is you "think" differently of what a hybrid is what more do you want me to prove? Those definitions of from OUR English dictionary, but to you guys theyre wrong because it's not what you think it is? Sounds like youre all in denial. I guess youre all just a little upset to know you're all breeding hybrids. To you hybrids are just different spieces, say a horse and a....jack ass for example. But hybridazation is much much common then that. You can bash inter spieces breeding all you want, just don't call it hybridazation, cause most breeders hybridize animals. You want a list I suppose, so i'll give you one, I cant fit it on this post so I will reply to this message and put it on there for you. I am fairly certain none of you even read through my post carefully. You can have your opinion after you read the facts.

variety Biology.
A taxonomic subdivision of a species consisting of naturally occurring or selectively bred populations or individuals that differ from the remainder of the species in certain minor characteristics.
An organism, especially a plant, belonging to such a subdivision.

1.Hybrid-The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races. speciesBiology.

species-A fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus and consisting of related organisms capable of interbreeding. See table at taxonomy.
An organism belonging to such a category, represented in binomial nomenclature by an uncapitalized Latin adjective or noun following a capitalized genus name, as in Ananas comosus, the pineapple, and Equus caballus, the horse.

race Biology.
An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
A breed or strain, as of domestic animals. - A&M Gecko
- AAA Reptile Supply

In the definitions of these terms, breeding subspecies, species or have gentically dissimilar parents, these reptile distibutors have hybridized animals
-A&M geckos
-AAA reptiles
- Absolute Reptiles
- Acme Reptiles
- Albey's "Too Cool" Reptiles
- Albino Tricolors
- AlbinoGecko.com
- AlbinoGeckos.com - Kevin Hanley
- AlbinoTegu.com - Ron St.Pierre
- Amazing Boa
- Amazing Gecko
- Amazon Reptile Center
- Animals.com
- Applegate Reptiles
- Arboreal Adventures
- Arboreals of the Rainforest
- Artistic Investments
- Awesome Arboreals - Tony Nicoli
those are just the A's you can look up the rest if you would like.

it's the way you are interpreting them that is wrong

There is nothing to interpret, the definitions are crystal clear. How would you "interpret" the definitions? Let me guess, you would still say hybrids are only between two different species?

Listen to what Chris Harrison has to say,
He knows what he is talking about.

You can type out definitions until you are
blue in the face and that won't make you right.

nm

that is the way it is.

There has been a convention in use among Herpetologists for years to define this:

An Intergrade is the result of a breeding between two sub-species or geographic races of the same species. The ranges of sub-species often overlap and the two sub-species or races may freely interbreed over a fairly large area. These offspring are fertile and will commonly show traits of both sub-species to one degree or another. These are not referred to as hybrids (even though technically they may be).

A hybrid is the result of a breeding between two different species, or the result of an inter-generic breeding (between two different genera). These offspring are commonly sterile, but NOT ALWAYS. If the species or genera are very closely related, the offspring may be fertile.

True hybrids OCCASIONALLY occur in the wild. These matings are usually between very closely related species that share the same range but mutually exclusive niches, and are normally a result of something that has drastically altered the habitat such as a hurricane or changes initiated by something that mankind has done, causing a new situation that will be shared by two related species that previously occupied separate niches. Occasionally, if the offspring are fertile, they will form a reproducing population of hybrid animals which pass characteristics of both species to their progeny. They tend to be very variable in morphology and positive identification is sometimes next to impossible. This phenomenon is known as Introgression. It has been reported in Bufo, Nerodia, Graptemys and Chrysemys populations (Conant 1975) to my knowledge and possibly others.

In the world of Herpetology, because of the closely related genera, species and sub-species and their shared and overlapping ranges, we need to have a way of differentiating what is a normally occurring cross and what is an unusual one. Lumping all of the crosses together, regardless of what boundary was crossed by calling them all hybrids would be confusing. We know that an intergrade is a normally occurring cross, whereas a hybrid is not. That's not to say that hybrids do not occur in the wild, they sometimes do, but they are not normal.

As Chris and others pointed out, the use of these terms in this manner may not be technically correct in the strictest sense of the word (going by Webster's definitions), but it is the way they have been traditionally used.

Concise and sensible. That matches very well with my sense of the whole issue (if not that of others), and answers a lot of questions I've had about it. Thank you.

Betcha had a lot of fun with that glossary, huh? If there's this much controversy over something as semmingly simple as "hybrid," I can imagine what's gonna happen when the glossary hits the streets! LOL
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MichaelB

Yeah, should be interesting....

Van Nostrads Scientific Encyclopedia
The American Heritage Dictionary
Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary

All the above post the same definition for Hybrid as Curiousity's source. I would have listed more but I ran out of sources to check. If you do not agree with his definition (he said himself that he didn't necessarily agee with it), why don't you just list the source of yours? That is fair. It's not right to snipe at him because he quoted a reference book. At least he did the work before spouting off.
Frank

PS; "HYBRID; offspring of parents that differ in one or more heritable characters. Also refers to to offspring of parentsof different species." Reptile and Amphibian Variants-B. Bechtel

The scientific definition is so all-encompassing because it has to cover both wild and domestic plants and animals, as well as bacteria and viruses where the difference between two "species" (or variant or race) could be a single transposed gene or a single protein.

You do see that the definition is so open-ended that it's meaningless unless you define "genetically dissimilar", right? Even siblings are "genetically dissimilar", unless they're cloned. Applying the widest possible definition to snake breeding makes everything a hybrid.

And Bechtel's definition just doesn't make sense: "offspring of parents that differ in one or more heritable characters" That means if you have blue eyes and your spouse has brown eyes, all your children are hybrids.

There you have it. If you can't find sources that agree with what a hybrid is...How can you attack ...or defend the concept??? Personally I define it this way. Ratsnake plus subspecies=intergrade. ratsnake plus another species of ratsnake, kingsnake or what ever...hybrid....it's the donkey and the horse.....My take on it.
Frank (heeHawww!!!!)

Sorry it took me so long to respond, I'm using my laptop and it is hard to type while I am laughing!

First of all, Kerby asked you about your credentials and you seemed to have to forgotten to let us know the basis for your expertise.

Secondly, if you had any training/education in science at all, you would know that there is no such concept as a scientific fact. Theories, principles, laws, yes.....facts, no.

The difference between us may be inherent in our approach to answering the question about what a hybrid is. Your solution is to go to a dictionary, edited by someone who probably majored in English and had no training in biology whatsoever. This is easily demonstrated by looking up the definition of species. Biologist argue, publish papers, and write books trying to define a species, yet the dictionary claims to do it in 20 words or less.

When I needed a definition of a hybrid, I relied on my education and experience with the concepts of hybridization, intergradation, and speciation. I didn't need to go the dictionary as I have advanced degrees and hundreds of hours of college level biology course and research experience.

If I were to look in the dictionary, I might find that I am not a snake hobbyist because I have no interest in "long, highly flexible metal wire used for cleaning drains".

This is in there because dictionaries are intended to provide definitions for a wide variety of audiences and uses. But within the world of biological systematics and taxonomy, a hybrid refers to a cross between two species, period. There are other terms (intergrade, variant, etc) to cover the other "definitions" that the dictionary lumps under the word.

Is the term used incorrectly in the hobby? Yes, everyday.
But so are terms like F1, F2, etc. Incorrect usage doesn't automatically change the meaning of the term.

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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

So what you're saying is, ignore the definitions because you know what hybrids really are?

Oh I'm in college, however I'm only 21 so I have no major degrees.

It is a FACT that we breathe oxygen, in science this is a fact, so youre saying we're not sure if we breathe oxygen. Or are facts only facts when you think they are?

go to this website please,

http://darwin.lib.cam.ac.uk/perl/nav?class=scientific&term=hybrids

also check the variation section

I suppose I should post other sources so here they are

http://www.goodrumj.com/Smith.html
http://www.livingunderworld.org/works_cited/

Im guessing you think Darwin is wrong too?
you are forgetting most of you are on the same side as me, against hybrids. But most of you arent familiar what hybridazation means or you have your own term for it.

n/p

Sounds like a curse when you throw it all together..........When I was a kid (Alas I'm that old....) Science said, "You can't produce a fertile hybrid. Period! Then came you can't cross those snakes cause their hemipenes don't matchup! OOPS!! Then came this forum and they said...."This stupid arguement will never end!" Maybe their right....
It is all apples and oranges and a million miles from anybody getting thru to anybody. Sounds like congress!!!!!!!!!!I think it really is the best to keep it simple..."Mah poor haid can't handle all this....." (lol)
Frank

"It is a FACT that we breathe oxygen, in science this is a fact, "

1st: Prove it.

2nd: Sometimes we don't breath oxygen. Soemtimes we huff paint fumes.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

lol i can't believe this, you're actually debating whether or not we breathe oxygen? Heres a hint:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question493.htm

Now let's look at the effects of breathing 100-percent oxygen. In guinea pigs exposed to 100-percent oxygen at normal air pressure for 48 hours, fluid accumulated in the lungs (pulmonary edema) and the epithelial cells lining the alveolus and pulmonary capillaries were damaged. This damage was probably caused by a highly reactive form of the oxygen molecule called the oxygen free radical, which destroyed proteins and membranes in the epithelial cells. In humans breathing 100-percent oxygen at normal pressure, the following effects were observed:

Pulmonary edema (intensive-care patients on breathing machines at 30 hours or more exposure)
Decreases in the rate of gas exchange across the alveoli (intensive-care patients on breathing machines at 30 hours of exposure)
Chest pains that were worse during deep breathing (volunteers with 24 hours of exposure)
Decrease in the total volume of exchangeable air in the lung (vital capacity) by 17 percent (volunteers with 24 hours of exposure)
Local areas of collapsed alveoli when plugged by mucus, a condition called atelectasis (patients, volunteers). The oxygen entrapped in the plugged alveolus gets absorbed into the blood, no gas is left to keep the plugged alveolus inflated and it collapses. Mucus plugs happen normally but are cleared by coughing. Also, if alveoli become plugged during air breathing, the nitrogen entrapped in the alveoli keeps them inflated.
blindness caused by inadequate development of the capillaries in the lens and retina of the eye (premature infants). Reducing the oxygen to 40 percent can prevent this blindness.
However, the astronauts in the Gemini and Apollo programs breathed 100-percent oxygen at reduced pressure for up to two weeks with no problems. In contrast, when 100-percent oxygen is breathed under high pressure (above 3000 torr), acute oxygen poisoning can occur with these symptoms:
nausea
dizziness
muscles twitches
blurred vision
seizures/convulsions

Now breathing 100% oxygen may not be healthy, but we surely can't breath 100% nitrogen, you would die in an hour or less. As said in the paragraph astronauts breathe 100% pure oxygen, which says either we breathe oxygen or we don't breathe. Try breathing underwater jones just to prove my point, oh and do it for an hour or so.

I'm not debating whether or not we breath oxygen, I'm debating whether or not you can prove it to me. Which, by the way, you haven't done yet. I need more info.

Q. If you take the label off of a pickle jar, how do you know what's inside?
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

"Those definitions of from OUR English dictionary, but to you guys theyre wrong because it's not what you think it is? "

Exactly. A language is determined by it's speaker use of it not by a dictionary. However, in this case I think it's just a case of different interpretations.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

have opinions that are no more qualified than yours. You aren't the "Holy Grail" on snakes, so take a hike.

Kerby...
SNAKES OF ARIZONA ! !

Kerby
So you breed cal kings and you are acquiring a lot of them.What are you the new kid on the block with the most calif kings, LOL.
I speak with Don Shores and your name has come up more than once. I can say you dissapoint me with your knee jerk reaction and disrespect.
It is a fact that all these locality cal kings "look" quite different and yet they are classified the same. It was just an experience I was sharing when I said I have collected cal kings for over 35 years and that they are all very different depending on what locale you are at. A lot of native california collectors like to keep his animals locale specific because they know and appreciate the pure locales more.
Then there are all the other cal kings aptly named "designer" cal kings. Hence the name "DESIGNER".
Maybe you should "take a hike" into the foothills and deserts and find some of these cal kings before you go mouthing off again. Seems to me you have a bit of an ego problem.
I was not condeming you for breeding designer cal kings just adding to your point.

np

np

Christian is the founder and president of
F I E L D H E R P E R S. C O M
We met at the Columbia NC show a few weeks ago.

Its alright Im getting old myself gonna be 33 in a month. I remember when I was in my 20s thinking 30 something is ancient !

Keith

Actually, I have been around awhile (longer than you? doesn't matter)

**So you breed cal kings and you are acquiring a lot of them.What are you the new kid on the block with the most calif kings, LOL.**

Does it bother you? I have cal kings because I like them and I think they have potential. As for your "new kid on the block" comment - grow up! I'm not new to snakes, just new to Kingsnake.com. I will admit that I've only had my web site on Kingsnake.com as Lonesome Valley Reptiles since Feb 2000 and have been on the forum since 1999, but as hard as it may sound to you I've been into herps long before Kingsnake.com.

**I speak with Don Shores and your name has come up more than once. I can say you dissapoint me with your knee jerk reaction and disrespect.**

See, I've met Don Shores and he is "good people". I have never met you and can only form an opinion on how you portray yourself on this forum, and IMO you haven't done well. I have disrespected you? LOL YOU haven't earned my respect LOL And I don't give a rat's ass what you and Don have said about me.

**It is a fact that all these locality cal kings "look" quite different and yet they are classified the same.**

I have had similar experiences with wc rosy boas that I have caught that look nothing like the cb rosy boas from that same locale LOL

**It was just an experience I was sharing when I said I have collected cal kings for over 35 years.....**

So, I've been in Arizona for 13 years, it doesn't make your opinions or observations anymore valid than mine. Your definition of a hybrid is still different than mine. Bottom line is that a Cal King bred to a Cal King is a Cal King, not a hybrid.

**...and that they are all very different depending on what locale you are at. A lot of native california collectors like to keep his animals locale specific because they know and appreciate the pure locales more.**

Agreed, there are locale specific snakes and people appreciate that, that doesn't make everything else "mutts" or hybrids.

**Then there are all the other cal kings aptly named "designer" cal kings. Hence the name "DESIGNER".**

Yes, so what's your point?

**Maybe you should "take a hike" into the foothills and deserts and find some of these cal kings before you go mouthing off again.**

Actually it was YOU who was mouthing off, I just responded to your open mouth LOL And I do go out a lot, more than you? Who cares.....

**Seems to me you have a bit of an ego problem.**

Sounds like you were looking in a mirror when you said that. You can have your ego. I'm fine with mine. So if someone disagrees with you, they have an ego problem? Sounds like the logic of a child

**I was not condeming you for breeding designer cal kings just adding to your point**

I don't give a rat's ass if you agree or disagree about my cal king breeding projects.

You are providing entertainment though.

p.s. I breed cal kings because I like them, the money sucks and that's why I work for a living (40 hrs a week; punch-in punch-out) I enjoy snakes, always have, always will and one of these days I might get as old as dirt like you

Cheers bro

Kerby...

Kerby you are so FOS and you know it.

I'm out.

Later.

Kerby...

:>

If i have a locale specific pair they are pure. If I breed them the offspring are close but not really pure because they weren't created by nature. Natural selection disappears. That (my opinion) being said, I still think it is important and interesting to stay within this degree of "impurity" and not make the leap to crossing species.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

>The moment we started trying to eliminate black tipping and breed for the >brightest tangerines, we might as well be breeding them with carpet pythons.

CHRIS,
Can you elaborate on the above point, for us dimwitted folk? Is there no acknowledgement of DEGREE in your position? Crossing two "pretty" hondurans to get more like them is the same as crossing a Honduran to a carpet python? I"m really not trying to be objectionable, I just can't fathom your statement. So I'm hoping you'll flesh in the details around the edges and maybe i'll "get" it, or at least get the point you're trying to make.
Thanks
Tkerry

>>>The moment we started trying to eliminate black tipping and breed for the brightest tangerines, we might as well be breeding them with carpet pythons.

This was a deliberate exaggeration to make a point. I am just pointing out that the "purity" of a lineage depends on your perspective. Some might feel that breeding two snakes with similar phenotypes keeps the lines pure, others feel that if the localities of the snakes are more than a mile apart, you are mixing localities.

I regard today's better lineages of tangerine hondurans as true breeding, but that doesn't mean they are pure from a locality perspective. That's ok however, because the point was to produce true breeding orange snakes with reduced black tipping.
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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

I'm not trying to say what hybrids are or arent in herpetology IM TELLING YOU WHAT HYBRID MEANS. I am trying to explain to everyone that HYBRID is being used incorrectly!!! You can't say youre against hybridization because it occurs so often if you go by the definition. GGEEEEEEEEEEEEZ

No, you're interpreting "genetically dissimilar"from the dictionary definition) to mean that even two wild-caught california kingsnakes from two adjacent fields would produce hybrids. Since we are talking about snakes, what the term hybrid means in herpetology is exactly the point.

You can say that that some of the so-called "pure" snakes out there really aren't, but you can't eliminate the debate just by declaring that everything's a hybrid.

The dictionary definitions are so broad because they cover stuff like plant crosses and viruses and bacteria that don't always have clear-cut species.

in your handy herpetology dictionary? check any dictionary on earth hybrid means the same thing. You don't understand that? Granted certain words do have different definitions from there dictionary definition but a hybrid is a hybrid, you cant just change the meaning of the word because it suits what you're saying. In genetics a hybrid means what I have said, whether plant or animal or virus or bacteria, if you cant get it through your narrow minded head, I might as well just stop bothering.

Okay, so what isn't a hybrid? If a hybrid is always, under all conditions and for all organisms 'the offspring of two genetically dissimilar organisms', is there any living thing on earth that isn't a hybrid? Your mother and father were genetically dissimilar, right?

I'm not trying to change the meaning of the term, I'm just saying the definition in the dictionary is broad in order to cover all the possible uses.

is if a set of identical twins produced offspring. You still havent defined the herpotological definition of hybrid. Crossing sub-species are hybrids, crossing two animals from different regions or localities are hybrids, crossing two different species are hybrids crossing two different genera are hybrids. Crossing a person with a cow is still called hybridizing, even though its a much more extreme form. Just as in crossing a kingsnake with a milk snake is more extreme than crossing two different type morphs of california kings.

Look, it's clear that you know the accepted definition of a hybrid. So what is your purpose in challenging the word. You know what we are talking about.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

Try telling the 19th century chicken farmer that a "coupe" is a car with two doors. When he says "I need to build a bigger coop to keep my chickens in." You can't call him an idiot because a two-doored car is not a feasible place to keep chickens and he probably couldn't build a car anyway.
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

oops I didn't intend to put that "crying face" icon in there. That's just supposed to be a parentheses. I'm not stooping to taunting, Curiousity, really!

lol i know that, no worries

The problem here seems to be a problem of degree.

The standard dictionary/textbook definition of hybrid is (as you quoted) "the offspring produced from the crossing of two genetically dissimilar individuals, particularly those of two different species".

The question becomes "How genetically dissimilar do they have to be?" The point you seem to be making is that almost any genetic difference is enough to qualify as hybridization. But how far do you carry that? Is any non-clonal reproduction hybridization? If so, then the word becomes totally non-descriptive because all matings become either clonal or hybridization events.

I guess the point others are trying make is that there is a difference between a semantic and a practical definition of a term. Neither definition is the correct definition. In the correct context, either could be correct. But it is incorrect to try and force a definition into a group where another definition is the standard usage.

Is an Australian wrong when he calls the trunk of his car a boot? Or are Americans wrong for calling the boot a trunk. They answer is of course, neither is wrong. Different use of the same word in different populations.

The same is true of the word hybrid. In certain contexts it means some things but in other contexts it means something else. To a geneticist a hybrid is a heterozygote, to a cell biologist it can refer to a cell from a hybridoma cell line. They are both correct usages of the word.

In general use among vertebrate systematists and taxonomists, hybrid refers to offspring of a mating of two different species. That isn't debatable. That is what it means in that context. That is the perspective (context) of these forums.

BTW - there is a Dictionary of Herpetology. I don't own it, but there is one.
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Chris Harrison

...he was beginning to realize he was the creature of a god that appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers - W. Somerset Maugham

BTW, let us not forget Webster's OTHER definition of "hybrid" -

2. Something of mixed origin or composition.

There ya go, that oughtta narrow it down!
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MichaelB

2. Something of mixed origin or composition.

That definition has the same problem as the other one.

.

m/p

Exactly. I'm sure there's a way to get one of those smiley faces to come up with tongue planted firmly in cheek, but I just haven't figured out how yet.
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MichaelB

When it's ajar.

Question: Is this statement true?

Why does a chicken coop only have two doors?

Because if it had four doors, it'd be a chicken sedan,
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International Snakes Meetup
International Herpetology Meetup

A little history, I produced crosses of the mexican plateau kingsnakes(mexicana, zonata, pyro, etc) back in the seventies. To a point of seven species in one neonate.

Sometime in the early eighties, at a IHS meeting in Oklahoma, I was invited to defend hybrids(crosses) on a panel discussion, hosted by Joseph Collins, a noted taxonomist. The discussion started with many zoo curators babbling in tougue. The narrator, Mr. Collins, put a quick stop to the proceedings. He then explained, he was not concerned about Me, crossing different species or even genus, he was very concerned about the zoos breeding pairs that one or both, were from unknown or different origins, then placing them in museum collections, as one locality or the other. He then explained, he saw no need for me to be doing such a thing, but maybe someday in the future, there would be a need or use for that.

In truth most of the products of zoo and captive breedings are not from the same location, same colony, same genetic group. They are indeed crosses, hybrids, etc.

For instance, the first L.m.greeri, were collected at both canyon La Flor and the Wicker Ranch, these were brought into captivity with no concern for localized populations and bred. This is and was the same for most breedings. Even when some were collected in pairs(pure) their offspring were bred to unrelated individuals(outcrossed=hybrid) Zoos for some reason, felt a need to make crosses(outcrossed) to keep bloodlines pure(hybrids)

So yes, you are correct, but the public will not buy into it, or zoos for that matter. Because of their own need to be pure, not the reptiles. Please keep up the effort to educate them. The first thing is, you should do this on the Hybrid discussion group, not here.hahahahahaha F

The lingo of herpetology these days is outrageous, I've been dealing with snakes for 12 years and every time I get into a different type of snake I have to learn a bunch of new words. It is overwhelming for new comers to understand half the things people say. I'm against "hybridizing" animals just to make them look good. I also agree that the definition is vague. I do however say in terms of genetics, any breeding other than twin/twin are hybrids. I try to stress normal english definitions because the more words we use to describe things the harder it becomes for people to get interested in this hobby/career. Dealing with snakes is hard enough as it is, with the government trying to ban the sell and trade of reptiles, all the local laws and state laws. And of course peoples general fear of snakes. I just think saying, "i dont like interspecies breeding" is much better than saying hybrid.

I KNEW we weren't all that far polarized in opinion.

This problem of semantics has been around this game at least as long as I have..35 years or so. The internet has made it even worse...EDB,BRB,BCC,BCI,XYZ, yada,yada..and I won't even get into some of the slang expressions used..imagine if you were just looking into getting your first snake, get on this forum and open an ad in the Classifieds that looks like this.."1.0 CBB BCI, double het for aner/amel, homo for alb, IBC free, a real screamer 4-sail. $2,500.00 or trade for alb EDB." (obviously this "ad" is an exaggeration for the purpose of making a point and bears no resemblance to reality). I'd probably just go look for another hobby. The internet has been a double-edged sword...on the one hand it has made a wealth of information available at a keystroke...on the other hand, much of it is unintelligible until you learn the lingo (much like learning a new language). All that on top of all of the latin and biological terms you learned in college and the language more specific to the field of Herpetology that you learn from years of working at it. Sort of disheartening to log on to an English Language internet site dedicated to the animals you've spent your life with and YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND A DARNED WORD THEY ARE SAYING!! It's like WTF??? Is this the twilight zone? What the hell is a XYZ? WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE SAYING????

Anyway...back to the issue at hand. We understand what the dictionary says as far as definitions for the words. The problem with that is that this is a field where we need to be more precise. That's why we use latin names. If every cross that could remotely (by the dictionary definition) be called a hybrid WAS called a hybrid, then there would be no sense of whether it was a "normal" (occurring naturally) hybrid. We use the term Intergrade to describe the process of hybridization that occurs where the natural ranges of two sub-species of the same species overlap. The real definition of Intergrade is to be transformed from one definite form to another through a series of transformations. This is fairly accurate in this case, because on one side of the boundary you will have one subspecific form, on the other side of the boundary you will have the other sub-specific form. In the zone between you will have a couple of forms, one being more heavily influenced by the subspecific form on it's side of the intergradient zone, another by the other subspecific form on it's side and in the middle a "blurring" of the two. So, this form of "hybridization" is more accurately described by the term "Intergrade", a progression from one form to another. Where two subspecies are separated by geography and do not interbreed naturally, a cross of these two is normally referred to as an "unnatural intergrade" but probably hybrid is just as accurate in this case. If they are similar enough genetically to be considered subspecies, then they probably had overlapping ranges at one time, but no longer naturally interbreed in the wild, but on the other hand they are disparate enough to be considered separate subspecies and there is no natural transformation from one form to another. Where two different species are involved or two different genera are involved, it is called a hybrid. This does occasionally occur in the wild. In true hybrid matings, the offspring are very often infertile. This is not alays true, however, especially with reptiles because many of the different species and even genera are very closely related and genetically very similar. This is one of the things that makes reptile taxonomy so challenging. When the offspring of this type of mating are fertile, reproducing populations of hybrid offspring can occur. This is called Introgression.

I got a chance to visit the Weicher Ranch this year,
did you get the link I sent you via e-mail?

JF

I sure did you punk, made me mad, ahhahahahahahahahahahaha
Ok, a question for you. Whats the deal with those two blacktail like rattlesnakes??? e-mail anything you can. Thanks F

Hi FR

I was at that Oklahoma meeting, too. It was great!

FWIW, I agree with with the dictionary definition of hybrid. Of course, I walk out the door and face square miles of hybrid corn, which are crosses of inbred lines, not species. So I have to be a bit flexible on the subject.

I also agree that hybrid is a pretty broad term. IMHO, it can be narrowed with an adjective to make "species hybrid", "generic hybrid", "subspecies hybrid", "locality hybrid", etc.

For the vast majority of king and corn snakes, I'd use something like "randomly captive bred, of unknown origin". Hmm. Maybe not totally satisfactory, but it's a start.

"Hybrid" also has the connotation of being man-made. "Intergrade" does not. I think it's worth keeping "intergrade" to refer only to specimens from naturally occuring populations. IMHO, the term "subspecies hybrid" is a natural for a man-made cross of two snakes of different subspecies. However, I've taken my share of lumps on the semantics issue, so I tend to use "subspecies cross" instead of "subspecies hybrid".

Paul Hollander

we (mankind) made all this up anyway.

Dictionary: Book made up by mankind to define the meaning of words made up by mankind

Hybrid: Term made up by mankind (we know what it means)

Genus, species, subspecies, variety: Terms made up by mankind
to describe the relationships of animals (constantly being revised, argued about, changed, challanged, etc. ad naseum)
that are constantly evolving.

Mankind is trying to draw a line in the sand (Time) and say
at this time this species is this or that, when 50,000 or
100,000 years ago, or from now, it aint what it is today.

My point? Argueing about something as dynamic as hybrids/ taxonomy is
an endless proposition. As of this day and age, we still don't
understand everything about exactly where everything evolved
from or is evolving to. We know a lot more than we did 10 years
ago, but we're far from figuring it all out. There are still
people that belive the earth is only a few thousand years old
for god's sake. (I don't really want to get into that).

Herpetoculture has come a long way since the 70's. Today
millions of snakes have been CB in the USA alone. No one
and I mean no one can be sure about the strains they are
breeding unless they collected the adults themselves from
the wild. This is one of the reasons 4 or 5 guys started
breeding "pure locality matched" alterna back in the early 80's.

When you breed a German Shepherd to a Doberman you get a hybrid mutt, but the pups will have what we call hybrid vigor which makes them bigger and stronger. The same is true when you breed two German Shepherds which do not have simular dogs in their pedigree (called an outcross). The hybrid pups from this cross will also be bigger and stronger as the result of hybrid vigor. So, a corn crossed with a king would produce hybrid mutts having hybrid vigor, and a corn bred to a corn that does not have simular snakes in the pedigree, in other words, coming from different areas, and/or breeders working with different lines (an outcross) would be purebreds which will possess hybrid vigor.

Ok... so I didn't word it like a pro, but hopefully it will be understood. And just out of curiosity... why don't snakes have pedigrees? It sure would make breeding really good strong healthy snakes a lot easier then having to guess if you are getting two unrelated snakes to breed together.... or to be able to line breed on a really good producer to up your chances of getting more good producers.... or fantastic colors, or what have you.

I LOVE these forums
MissHisssss