Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, here she is. Hatched, and female. Definitely a looker. She has some gorgeous sunset type colors to her, with some extreme tans, and choco browns. Gorgeous silver eyes too. My wife's projects are definitely coming through for her. She named this one Seven.Let us know what you think!

Definitely a looker!!! Would love to see pics of the parents and rest of the clutch..

Thanks. We're not releasing any information on the father, or any other involvings with the clutch, or the other projects that we've produced using our male... at least for the next 4-5 years or so.

ssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

then all we can say is....

Nice cinny.....

....wheee
-----
.......
.......
......JY

the world ends in less than two years!!!

2012

SATAN

>>Thanks. We're not releasing any information on the father, or any other involvings with the clutch, or the other projects that we've produced using our male... at least for the next 4-5 years or so.
-----
"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

This is a valid point. I'll understand if no one wants to come right out and show their projects, but I think everyone needs to just come out and show everything they have by december 2012. I mean, if the History Channel is any indication, we'll all be dead shortly thereafter anyway, so whats the big deal?

Nice cross! I don't mind you not sharing how you made your snake but if you are going to show the result off at least show a pic that shows a little more of the snake so I can actually see what you have there.. If GM made a new model of car would you like it if they ran an ad and only showed a quick glimpse of the car and then finished the rest of the commercial by showing just the inside of it's trunk and talking about how great this new vehicle was to drive! Think you get my point anyway!

Looks cool so far from what I can see of it,a basic dorsal/top view sure would be nice as that's how most of us do it regardless of how rare it is!

Anthony McCain

Unfortunately, this isn't an advertisement per-se

We're holding off on putting up full body shots until it has a shed, and a meal.

I dissagree. You have no reason to post a pic and then say, "top secret" except to try to advertise and get your name out there. You would do yourself much more utility by giving your project credibility by posting better photos. Not often will Anthony and I agree on anything but in this case he is right. And by the way, if you do not give out info, in 4 or 5 years when we have 9-10 visual gene combos available (there are already 5's) absolutley nobody but you is going to care about an abherant cinny combo. Not being mean just telling you the truth. Demand is created by people wanting to emulate what you have done.
-----
Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

Evan you never intend on coming off being what some people may call a-holeish, but you do. There was a thread you posted and I sent you an e-mail back about my attitude. I thought you were being a a-hole in that message, but it's just you and how you address the situation. I think you are great guy and you are someone to listen to and take advice from because you have been around awhile. I think I remember you from an expo I went to in St. Louis in 1999 or 2000. Anyway, if I were the guy that posted the thread then I would definitely listen to Evan.

Unfortunately not when this is a 2 gene combo using something new. That wouldn't be wise information to follow. More or less, stupidity. Why? We could lose our project out from under our legs in a heartbeat if someone else does manage to get another of our animal in. This isn't an advertisement.... especially when nothing from this project will be shown off in half a decade or more. This is simply showing off the fruits of our labor, and how things are progressing.

"NEW" is a VERY unproven word my friend.. Perhaps you didn't learn much from my Mystic project..... There are VERY few NEW genes left that are more than just another variation of what we already have. I'd be willing to bet that if I decided to make something with a Black Pastel using say a Whirlwind/Super Stripe and maybe a dash of Vanilla or Enchi or maybe even Desert in it that it could EASILY turn out looking ALOT like your NEW snake . It's all about "stacking" the right genes on top of each other, some of us just look at this a little different than others do so it isn't a big deal to me at all.. "If" I want to make stuff like that I will be able to get it done one way or another!

Anthony McCain

>>"NEW" is a VERY unproven word my friend.. Perhaps you didn't learn much from my Mystic project..... There are VERY few NEW genes left that are more than just another variation of what we already have. I'd be willing to bet that if I decided to make something with a Black Pastel using say a Whirlwind/Super Stripe and maybe a dash of Vanilla or Enchi or maybe even Desert in it that it could EASILY turn out looking ALOT like your NEW snake . It's all about "stacking" the right genes on top of each other, some of us just look at this a little different than others do so it isn't a big deal to me at all.. "If" I want to make stuff like that I will be able to get it done one way or another!

because all your genes are/were already proven by others before.

So you arent in the position to not hide or keep secrets. You you have nothing new, never have. Im not attacking you, just stating facts. You have only gone after morphs others have proven out.

This guys has every right to not show the other snake, and he shouldnt. I think he should have not showed the snake until he was ready to sell, but he was excited to show something that he produced. Most of all new combos made by mid to large (professional) breeders have kept those hidden or secret.

If this guy showed the hets, everyone would be looking for that animal, its happened many times before. And some in this thread would be the first to try to mass produce them and sell as cheap as possible. Thats why some breeders try very hard to keep new morphs out of certain peoples hands because of what they do to the market.

Its just part of the business.

Well Said.

"There are VERY few NEW genes left that are more than just another variation of what we already have."

This has to be one of the most incorrect statements of the whole conversation thus far. There are several genes that have not been discovered yet and may never be due to being deleterious, percentages, and a bunch of other circumstances. Unless you have a master list of all the ball python genes out there, what data or basis can that statement above be made? To be honest, it sounds like a remark that you made because you're upset with the situation.

Good luck to all

ALOT of these genes are variations on the same alleles which simply means a different version of the same gene! I do think there are still other "NEW' genes out there BUT for it to be a completely NEW gene and not just a variation of what we already have is going to be few and far between at this point! Exactly what evidence do YOU have that proves my statement invalid by the way, I'd just love to hear it lol !

Anthony McCain

Yes, I understand the meaning of an allele very well. To try to answer your inquiry in a non technical scientific fashion, how can you even comprehend that we have found all of the genes out there? The evidence is all around you.

How do we "find" ball python mutations. You (not you per say but rather ball python breeders) don't use genetic sequencing techniques, you don't isolate genes for in vitro testing, you don't perform controlled experiment. What do we do, we look for a visual representation of the animal. Then we try to find genetic markers that indicate what the visual representation will be and breed them. If you can't see them in the wild because they die, fall victim to predators because they lack pigmentation, are deleterious, are hidden from sight, etc, then why would you say with they don't exist? Just because you can't see them in a cage and reproduce them?

There are several genes that are not signally activated without the presence of another gene. Just because you can't see them, doesn't make them absent. What happens if a specific gene interacts and affects another gene, in turn mutating the visual appearance? To say that all we have out there now are just the same alleles of varying genes is very closed minded. To say there are no other genes because you cannot reproduce them in a cage sounds very God-complex to me.

I'm not here to change your mind. Honestly, I could care less and rarely frequent the forums but happened to catch this one. I just happened to stumble upon this topic and it seemed you were attacking someone because they wouldn't give you something and you felt you really needed to know and trivialized their achievement with incorrect information. I hope you didn't mean to come off that way, but it sounded elementary.

Good luck and remember, it isn't if you can prove anything but rather that you can disprove something.

"ALOT of these genes are variations on the same alleles which simply means a different version of the same gene! I do think there are still other "NEW' genes out there BUT for it to be a completely NEW gene and not just a variation of what we already have is going to be few and far between at this point! Exactly what evidence do YOU have that proves my statement invalid by the way, I'd just love to hear it lol ! "

My point of this is that some of us already have the ability to make stuff like he was trying to show off without actually showing the entire snake. The reason WHY people do stuff like that is that they are smart enough to know that people like myself can see that snake then go make it ourselves with the genetics we already have IF we want to. What he isn't getting is that alot of stuff just like the snake he has that he is trying to promote is likely already out there anyway and just hasn't been shown yet for the very reason he decided to show a cheezy picture like that. I find it funny that he thinks others won't figure out how to make stuff just like that and alot sooner than 5-10 years from now when he wants to start releasing his. Reminds me of the Super Stripe project when Jared told me "Don't sell that Whirlwind gene to anyone only you and I have it you know , don't let them have it." I laughed at him and said "Jared you really think only you and I have this, others will figure it out so selling a male Whirlwind for 10k right now is not a bad idea anyway." 10 days later Tom from Cypress Creek produced a female Super Stripe , 3 weeks after that so did BHB , a couple months after that Mark Haas made his first Super Stripe.. So you people can say ALL you want to about this stuff I have called ALOT of this stuff out ahead of it actually happening anyway so think what you want , I'm not changing the way I think about this stuff based on your post or the post of the guy that thinks he is keeping anything out of reach as that is nonsense in itself!

Anthony McCain

I really dint think I have ever read a more self absobed, arrogant, jealous, post in my life.

They have a cool snake and thats that. You can't click your shoes together Dorothy and make that snake now get over it.
-----
Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

Then why are we breeding these animals, we should just ask you for the results. Sorry, this just looks like breeder's envy to me.

Beautiful cinnamon mysteries to the original poster and good luck!

Obvious some of you haven't followed how all this stuff has unfolded very well.. I told people that snake Amir made wasn't a Pastel Super Stripe for over a year and GUESS WHAT it was not it is something different I noticed the slight differences DAY ONE that told me that wasn't a Pastel Super Stripe at all and once BHB had made the real Pastel Super Stripe the proof was right there for people to see. That snake is now called the Puma!

The Mystic is yet another example , I said 5 years ago "this snake will make a Super that isn't just a white snake like a Super Mojave" . Seen my Super Mystic lately, AINT white is it? Isn't the exact same as a Mojave at all like so many just thought it would be. ALSO unlike what MOST thought Mystic x Mojave isn't just a white snake either (unless you have another gene in either the Mojave or Mystic then you can actually make them go white but that is another story for another time). Most said Mystic x Mojave would look like Karma, I disagreed with people and again GUESS WHAT a Potion isn't visually a Karma at all. I'll even take this one step further just for some of you, I will NOT be one bit surprised if the Phantom Potion looks different than the Mystic Potion! That hasn't been shown yet so I'll call that one out right here with my 2 cents worth before it even hits the forum. Sure it may be similiar to my Potions but I doubt it is "the same" and actually will look right in the middle of a Crystal and a Mystic Potion I think! I bet it is darker than a Crystal but has pattern down further on the sides than a Mystic Potion has, so it would have the deep color like a Mystic Potion but have a pattern that is different and alot like a Baker Crystals pattern. Time will tell Brock's cooking eggs right now!

You can say all you want about people being full of themselves because they have alot of different genes or alot of snakes to play around with. I have already MADE stuff people didn't think was even possible and will continue to do so without the input/advice of people just like yourself!

Like I said I aint jealous , that's still a Cinny and that is about the first cinny cross that even slightly interests me and that is only because it reminds me a little of my Super Stripe stuff !!!!

I'll be sure to point out when someone else makes a snake just like that just for you brainwashed people that don't listen to people that have followed the Ball genetics from the time the Albino Ball started all this as some of us actually have been doing this that long! I didn't learn this stuff overnight and to think some of you actually "think" that you know more than people that actually have been doing JUST THIS for that long is far, far more arrogant than anything I said here today ! Once you start making stuff like I have made and will continue to make I'll consider your opinion a possibility, until then I'm done talking to a few of you about any of this !

Anthony McCain

I can easily say I predicted a bunch of things after the fact too. I predicted Obama to be President before he was elected, it doesn't mean I'm any different or know anything more than the rest. Your examples aren't Earth shattering either. I'm sure there were other people predicting the same outcomes, you weren't the only one, you just happened to be in the right place at the right time wrt. the mystics. Just because you put 2 things together doesn't mean you can change the face of science, dictate how things are done--you don't get a pass. Getting defensive and trying to elevate your status is only proving my previous points. You know nothing about my background or my experience with ball pythons so you assume that I know nothing about genetics or when the first albino was around. If I gave you one piece of information that I'm holding back right now, you would probably retract some of your statements but this thread has fallen of the original path.

Sorry to say sir but I'm still seeing a whole lot of envy.

Think whatever you like , like I said I can make stuff like it if I want to anyway, only difference is I'd use Black Pastel instead to do it! And I'm sure your one of those guys that also says " I knew all along that Mystic gene was a type of phantom" YET you were so confident back before I proved them out NOT to by one for 1/4 the price of a Phantom just the same! I have what I have because of what I have noticed early on before most knew what to look for in some of the most sought after yet subtle genes out there today AND that is a fact, not just a prediction pal ! Your comment about how many TRUE new genes are left tells me all I need to know about your brainwashed thinking! Like I said I think other genes are out there yet BUT they are few and far between as most will prove to be a variation of what we already have found , PERIOD.

Good day !

Anthony McCain

You just proved everyone's point. You see what others produce and then hurry and try to produce the same thing so you can sell it for less. That's why most of the ball breeders think what they think about you.

Also, this guy isn't saying no one will ever have the ability to produce this animal, they are saying they dont want to make it easy for them by showing them the snake.

You just said you like the snake but keep saying you could produce one if you wanted. We already know you are already planning on trying to make it for next season and if you do figure it out, oh well for this guy, he should put some on the market as soon as they can or someone in this thread will sell them as cheap as possible.

Some are followers and some are leaders!

That's the toughy. This is a 2 gene combo, and the particular animal shows none of the markers that the parent has, that created this. As far as we know, nobody else has this type of animal. It's worth the risk. When someone is selling a Super Stripe Black Pastel Desert whatever, that only holds a certain odd on reproducing itself, and we're selling an animal that already does some very weird stuff with cinnamons and a couple other combos we refuse to show.... I think the market will not hurt. That Black Pastel/specter/whatever else cross just shares the black pastel/cinny similarity on genes, and that's about it.

Anthony can try to reproduce it... all I can say is good luck on it.

We will keep our project and work with it over the course of the next half decade or so, and see what comes of it before selling. We'd like to get a full glimpse of this genes full potential, as well as a super if there is one, before releasing one. If someone finds one and starts selling before we get a chance... that's the risk we're willing to take. We want to see it's potential and what exactly this animal is before selling.

You also have NO clue how the Phantom market stuff went down and likely didn't read my post a month or so back or if you did you decided not the believe the real truth and who really hurt that market the most ! Some of you really truely are brainwashed pretty sad, can't see the forest for the trees can you????

Anthony McCain

GMAFB - who died and made you photo police? Last time I checked people were allowed to post pictures of their hatchlings just cause they are cool and they want to share.

Anyway cool snake - keep em guessing
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons
The Blog
nihil facimus sed id bene facimus

Thanks, Tosha. At least someone gets it. Everyones a critic though I suppose.

Hey Evan, great post !!! Have to agree 100% with you.
-----
Mark Petros Reptiles
BallPython777.com

>>>I dissagree. You have no reason to post a pic and then say, "top secret" except to try to advertise and get your name out there. You would do yourself much more utility by giving your project credibility by posting better photos. Not often will Anthony and I agree on anything but in this case he is right. And by the way, if you do not give out info, in 4 or 5 years when we have 9-10 visual gene combos available (there are already 5's) absolutley nobody but you is going to care about an abherant cinny combo. Not being mean just telling you the truth. Demand is created by people wanting to emulate what you have done.>>>

Actually, we do have enough reason to. A, this is our project... not a community project. We're not required to show anyone anything on this animals background. And if we do, it will be when we release them... in 5 years, or maybe longer.

as we've said, this isn't our advertisement. There is something going on here, and we're simply not spilling the beans on what all is going on; especially with the father, when it's quite simple for someone to attempt to match up markers and pick something out. In that scenario, our project just went byebye. If someone cannot emulate what we have done because they had seen completely what this project is comprised of, simply because they do not have those ingredients, the demand will still be there, through and through. You may not agree, but you know what they say about opinions.

This isn't a cross that was produced from two existing morphs in the hobby. It's from one existing morph to an imported animal that really has something going on with him. Not exactly something we want to reveal the nitty gritty on, before we see what's going on with it first.

Me and Andrew have a checkered past, but I think he is handling this like any of the big guys would handle a new morph. It's a looker and I hope to see more of it in the coming years.

Tim Johnson
-----
Tim Johnson
Royal Morphz
702-672-5101

I agree Andrew. Good call. If I remember correctly a couple of years ago, maybe 4, Ralph Davis posted 1 picture of Neo, and nothing since. I don't see anyone talking poop to Ralph about it. Get over yourself people. Some of you just want in so you can tank prices, just like has been done to the existing morphs. Honestly Andrew, it would be cool to never see pics again.

Like I said on the other forum.

Smokin' animal.

Jason
-----
gabesexotics@yahoo.com

Like the BIGGEST ball python breeder in the world, the one that put p. regius on the map not sharing anything, anymore, I guess the bottom line is all that matters in his case!

that is totally awesome. I love it

Very, very cool!

Justin
-----
J. Kobylka Reptiles
JKR 2009 Birthing Records

Warning: Snakes have been shown to cause death in laboratory rats.

She is gorgeous. I look forward to seeing some post-shed pictures of her.
-----
Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Cool looking snake. I look forward to seeing a picture once it has shed and fed.

I looks to me what I would hope to see when you cross a cinnamon to a Specter/Whirlwind, what ever its called now.

Anyway, niec snake and good luck. I would imagine we might see a few more like it in the years to come given the quantity in which ball pythons are now bred.

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

He already is promoting it in my mind by showing that vague pic!
I agree with the potential of Whirlwind Specter genetics involved as well, I just so happen to know a guy that works with that gene too, lol!!! Really doesn't matter to me if he doesn't show it that well as some of us can figure out how to make stuff that will look basically identical anyway if that's what we decide to make anyway , no big deal there!

Anthony McCain

>>>He already is promoting it in my mind by showing that vague pic!
I agree with the potential of Whirlwind Specter genetics involved as well, I just so happen to know a guy that works with that gene too, lol!!! Really doesn't matter to me if he doesn't show it that well as some of us can figure out how to make stuff that will look basically identical anyway if that's what we decide to make anyway , no big deal there!

Anthony McCain>>>

First, we're not promoting it. live with it. It seems like you're more caught up in wanting to reproduce it more than anything else.

Second thing is, there are no spector/whirlwind genes in there. We don't own either. As we've said.... it's something new in the works, and not something already current in the hobby.

Good luck trying to replicate it *salutes*

This is very interesting.
The snake is interesting...but perhaps the thread is more interesting?
It seem as though it has stirred up a bit of curious envy among a few of the posters here.

This is merely good project management. Nothing wrong with that.
Perhaps he could have selected better pics...(but hey, Iets be real here, I know a few other people...some of whom may have posted in this thread....who started out using rather poor photos to market their animals too) lol.

Now...GREAT project management would have been to keep it completely under wraps until you have already proven a super...and until you actually have babies available to sell...
That way they do not become "old hat" by the time you are ready to sell. You still control the market on them....And they have not been de-valued by other less savvy marketeers.
When you have a nice pile of them... and multiple examples other cool combos using the new trait...then they are ready to be unveiled....and the iron is hot...you can sell em like hotcakes and at respectable prices too!

Regardless...
Who can blame the breeder for wanting to show off a sweet looking animal.
Marketing or not...it is a neat snake.... The breeders have every right to be proud.
If you want to know the ingredients you may have to pay for an animal.
Perhaps that is what this industry needs? People who are able and willing to take a little flack in order to help promote a little stability.

For example:
Charles G. took a little flack for handling his Paint Ball project this way.
Certainly there are other people who have Paint balls, as well as supers...but Charles handled the project smartly by initially only showing off the super form...
Anyway.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
It is my opinion that we should allow the originator of a project decide how they wish to handle the marketing of their offspring.
I don't know....Sometimes the knit-picking just gets a little old.
Just my thoughts.
Nice snake by the way.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611

Harlin,
You hit the nail "DEAD CENTER" on the head!

if someone didn't care....they wouldn't even bother to post a reply.....

Pitoon

>>This is very interesting.
>>The snake is interesting...but perhaps the thread is more interesting?
>>It seem as though it has stirred up a bit of curious envy among a few of the posters here.
>>
>>This is merely good project management. Nothing wrong with that.
>>Perhaps he could have selected better pics...(but hey, Iets be real here, I know a few other people...some of whom may have posted in this thread....who started out using rather poor photos to market their animals too) lol.
>>
>>Now...GREAT project management would have been to keep it completely under wraps until you have already proven a super...and until you actually have babies available to sell...
>>That way they do not become "old hat" by the time you are ready to sell. You still control the market on them....And they have not been de-valued by other less savvy marketeers.
>>When you have a nice pile of them... and multiple examples other cool combos using the new trait...then they are ready to be unveiled....and the iron is hot...you can sell em like hotcakes and at respectable prices too!
>>
>>Regardless...
>>Who can blame the breeder for wanting to show off a sweet looking animal.
>>Marketing or not...it is a neat snake.... The breeders have every right to be proud.
>>If you want to know the ingredients you may have to pay for an animal.
>>Perhaps that is what this industry needs? People who are able and willing to take a little flack in order to help promote a little stability.
>>
>>For example:
>>Charles G. took a little flack for handling his Paint Ball project this way.
>>Certainly there are other people who have Paint balls, as well as supers...but Charles handled the project smartly by initially only showing off the super form...
>>Anyway.
>>Everyone is entitled to their opinions.
>>It is my opinion that we should allow the originator of a project decide how they wish to handle the marketing of their offspring.
>>I don't know....Sometimes the knit-picking just gets a little old.
>>Just my thoughts.
>>Nice snake by the way.
>>
>>Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
>>970-255-9255
>>970-245-7611
-----
Homepage
My BLOG
2010 European Shows

Thanks Bro!
I love reading your posts.
Please feel welcome to give me a call sometime.
Take care and have a good season

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611

this thread sure brought out a lot of ugly.

cool looking snake. good luck with the project.

I'm sure someone out there has an import with the same gene...so it might end up leaking out before you prove it.

Just sayin'.

Either way...awesome snake.
-----
"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Possibly, but doubtful.

As for proving it out. Very doubtful, but still possible. We have females of the morph we produced last season from a couple different females, including combos, that are around the 1,000g mark... so we might hit the super this coming season, if there is one.

Whatever you have, its an awesome project. Good luck with it in the future. I look forward to seeing more from you over the coming seasons.

Good luck,

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

To bad some of us can't handle the mystery aspect.
-----
Charles Glaspie
picasaweb.google.com/coldthumb

Hey Charlie,

Nice to see your post here. Just mentioned your name in the post above.
No doubt, you understand this situation...lol.
Take care dude,

Harlin

Harlin, I CLEARLY understand this situation myself.. I just don't approach stuff that way myself! I have the Mystic , Whirlwind, Potion stuff etc etc and other unique things in the works and I am NOT hiding that fact at all, so I know all about how this game is played already! If you look at my recent post that hardly any of you even bothered to comment on I clearly am not hiding stuff here! The Mystic Fire and that Colt 45 Mystic stuff are simply INSANE and off the charts! You bet people can make that Mystic Fire if they want BUT that Mystic Colt 45 stuff is NFS anyway until I have more of them to offer as it is genetic and in my opinion proven here already but I still showed them both off early on didn't I and it wasn't just some cheezy pic either! The days of the 20k snakes are moreless over , some people still don't get that part I guess.. I'll continue to show FULL BODY shots of my stuff REGARDLESS of how rare it is thank you very much!

Anthony McCain

Interesting that you should reply.
I did not point any fingers at ANYONE in my post.
Charles G. is the only person I specifically used as an example...and I believe it was in a positive light.
Everyone...including you....should be allowed to market their animals the way they like.
My only point was....that the knit-picking about another persons project gets a little old. And out of all the people posting to and reading this thread I would think you would completely understand that.
As I recall, you took quite a bit of flack by marketing the mystics before you had a super. You eventually did prove them out and they are great looking animals!
Your marketing strategy must be satisfactory to your needs. So what's the worry?

I don't think we are running out of new traits to play with. Every year new and interesting babies are produced....not just in Africa...but also in captivity both here and over-seas. Provided the laws do not become more insane....The morph business and hobby should do fine.
All of these fun multi-combos need an injection of new single gene traits. Otherwise the mixing bowl will become rather bland.

Funny how some of the combos looks so similar.
Nice to have something new to spice it up a little.
Best wishes on your season. I hope you hatch some cool stuff...and show it off.
I love seeing it.

Take care,
Harlin

Very good point as always Harlin!

I just don't like vague pics I guess , I would rather not even see it at all if I can't tell what it is that I'm looking at. To me there are many ways to skin a cat if it's a look I like. Knowing what to add is the trick and I think alot of this is easier than people care to admit, if you know how the genes react to each other then making very similiar stuff won't be all that hard. One example of this is that in my mind a Black Pastel Super Stripe will look ALOT like a Paintball, time will tell but I bet I aint off by much!

I am just tired of all the games and drama anymore and just want to make the wicked stuff without all the nerdy games... I'll make what I like with the genes I work with either with or without some of these folks is what stuff like this thread spells out to me I guess, and I'm fine with that just the same actually, I like the challenge anyway, keeps me from gettin bored out here in the Iowa cornfields!

Anthony McCain

>>Hey Charlie,
>>
>>Nice to see your post here. Just mentioned your name in the post above.
>>No doubt, you understand this situation...lol.
>> Take care dude,
>>
>>Harlin

hey Harlin,

People around me called my stuff normals for YEARS..lol..So i figured why give away what i have worked for.

...you just don't know how difficult it has been to bite my tongue over recent events.lol (I almost posted a pic,but then decided that i have no need to prove what i have,and show exactly what i don't want to.)

A little mystery is a good thing if you ask me.It keeps things interesting.
-----
Charles Glaspie
picasaweb.google.com/coldthumb

Smart Man!

That's the way I see it.
It protects the TIME, $$$, and EFFORT you have invested in your project.
Othewise...the value of the animal seems to dwindle sooner than it should.

The more people who have the project, the less control you have. Eventually the values of all morphs will begin to deflate as they become more plentiful.

We all feel disappointed when we see an animal's monetary value crashed too early, because someone decides to mass produce and dump the prices of any particular morph.

Although you cannot really control this...(because you cannot manage another person's greed)....You can manage a project in it's initial stages in order to help sustain it's value over time. Being a little choosey with what you display and how soon you display it can be one way of managing the project. Holding firm prices and choosing the right customer is also a good way to manage the project.

A well managed project will be appreciated by each of your customers as well....because they will also have a better chance of making a return on their investment.

A customer has not only invested in your animal...but also in your ability to manage that project. So they are essentially investing in YOU, to some degree.

Another interesting way of good project management is to concentrate on the quality of what you produce.

For example:
Brian Gundy has put a lot of effort into refining the Mojos he is working with. He values his work. And he is able to sell his Gold Blush Mojave Balls for higher prices than the current bottom dollar market prices. People appreciate refined quality...and they are willing to pay for those extra efforts... Especially when you can see a real difference in the quality.

I do not own any snakes from either Charles G. (coldthumb) or Brian Gundy. (FGS)... But I do like the way these guys present themselves....It's just good marketing in my opinion.
Take care.

Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611

Awesome snake, and wishing you the best of luck with your endeavors with this gene.
-----
-Diana
www.LunarBoids.com

Thanks, D! We're definitely excited!

Screw what I said earlier. If it were me I would keep the snake on DL as well. A snake that is going to be in demand and people will be willing to pay. Good luck with your project.

That is a REALLY NICE Cinnamon,I mean one of the coolest ones I have seen, I hope mine will put out some like that this year..I too have something Top Secret I am working on but its so secret that I wont put any pictures of it out for you guys to look at for at least 10 years or maybe even 20.. See by then you guys will have forgotten I was even working on something so secret.. Good luck with whatever it is you have there
-----
JEM from sunny AZ.

3.25 Normals
3.10 Pastels
1.0 Super Pastels(Thanks Dan Wolf for the best looking Super male I have ever seen)
2.7 Normal Spiders
1.1 Spiders 100% het Ghost(thanks Mark Petros)
0.2 Spiders 66% het Ghost(Thanks Steve Beamer)
1.3 Orange/Butterscotch Ghosts(BallPython777 Mark Petros)
0.6 100% het Orange Ghosts
0.3 66% het Orange Ghosts(should prove this year)
0.1 Pastel Ghost
1.0 Citrus Ghost(courtesy of Josh Hutto)
0.1 Super Pastel 100% het Ghost
2.3 Albinos
1.1 Caramel Albinos
0.1 100% het Caramel Albino
0.4 100% het for Albino
0.5 66% het for Albino(should prove this year)
0.7 Yellow Bellies
1.0 Pastel Yellow Belly
1.2 Ivories
1.2 100% het for Clowns(Mark Petros)
1.6 Cinnamons(Thanks Stan Ruppel)
1.0 Pied
1.4 100% het for Pied(Josh Hutto and Paul the Pied Peddler)
0.5 66% het for Pied(should prove out next year with my visual male Pied)
1.5 Mojaves
0.1 Pastave het Ghost
1.1 Beautiful Black Pastels(thanks Gulf Coast Reptiles)
1.2 BumbleBees(thanks for the AWESOME Bees Marc Bailey)
1.1 Pewters(Myself and Scott Priester of Brookside Reptiles)
0.1 Chocolates(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.3 Lessers(Josh Hutto)
3.2 Fire's(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.2 High White Calico's(Thanks Brent from BRB)
1.1 SpotNoses(Thanks Brandon of Priceless Pythons)
1.1 Enchi's (Me and Josh Hutto, Thanks again Josh)
1.0 Pinstripe
0.1 Pinstripe 100% het for Ghost
0.1 Lemon Blast
1.0 Vanilla Ghost(Thanks again GCR for all the great snakes)
0.1 Super Vanilla Ghost(Awesome Chris and Shelia from GCR)
0.1 Vanilla Yellow Belly
0.1 Vanilla(Another one from Josh Hutto,I must have all your snakes now...lol.) Thanks my friend, Jay
1.1 Stillwater Hypo Bull snakes(Brad Chambers)
0.0.1 Great looking Brown and Tan Desert Bull Snake)
0.0.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauty
1.1 Argentinian Black and White Tegus
1.0 Gotti Pitbull (Tank)
2.0 Beautiful Bengals (Stryker and Cynbad)
14 Tarantulas
Last but most Important 2.2 Children

Fire x Cinnamon. I've seen several of these from several clutches and they are quite variable, some being more extreme than others. Anyway there were a few that had the full back striping and large areas that lacked pattern like in your pic. Nice snake whatever it is!

Buddy, it'd be hard to make FireMon's when we don't even own Fire's, and the Sire looks absolutely nothing like a fire, or sulpher... Just saying

That is one nice looking ball! Thanks for sharing it with us. Any other crosses coming with the same male? congrats!
Tom Harbin
-----

Tom Harbin

I can't believe what I've just read from some of you people.

I didn't know that grown up people still find it ok to act like babies that can't have some candy.
And there are some of you posting replies that until now I thought a lot more of in this industry.

This is his WIFE'S project that She has been working on, that SHE has put the time and money into... not anyone else.

Just because pics got posted doesn't mean that anyone is owed anything. Nobody "deserves" to know anything more than what the Owner's of the snake choose to tell you.

We all know by now that with Ball Pythons the sky is the limit. If you all want to make something new and exciting it's as simple and being creative and opening your wallet.

Quit acting like a bunch of babies and be happy for them for having their hard work pay off!

These pics were posted with the hopes that you would all appreciate seeing something new and cool, nothing more.
He's a good guy that loves what Him and his Wife are doing and thought you all would enjoy seeing a cool new snake... nothing more.

If you think I'm wrong than talk your trash.

Give a guy a break already, and to all of those supporting him and his wife... THANK YOU for understanding and acting like adults.