Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This past week, on River Road, I was herping around midnight when I was pulled over by a local Sheriff accompanied by a couple Border Patrol. The Sheriff claimed I was "weaving" (I wasn't). I explained I was photographing reptiles, and the Sheriff asked if I was aware of the law-I said yes, that's why I was photographing. He replied that the "Camera won't save you if we find a live snake in your car", and went on to ask if I minded if he checked my truck,

Well, I replied that I didn't particularly mind, but asked what the point would be, since it isn't illegal to transport live snakes in a vehicle! He brushed off the question, mumbling something about my having just come out of a "State Park area"....He also claimed that "They're throwing guys in jail for snake collecting now"! To this I replied that "I'm a professional reptile breeder, and am licensed to collect reptiles on private land, so I carry snakes in my vehicle all the time. Are you saying I'm now subject to a ticket or an arrest every time I do?" Again, he didn't seem to have a reply to this either.

Clearly this guy was not familiar with the law OR it's enforcement-he did not even know it was only a class C misdemeanor-and was trying to scare me off. I kept a respectful but skeptical attitude throughout the encounter, of course-but this guy was simultaneously annoying and amusing.

The Border patrol was polite and even friendly-one stayed and conversed with me about snakes for about 15 minutes (as they were the two other times they stopped us). Overall I found it an enlightening stop-LE is clearly trying to push us out of the border region.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

It's more of that Gray area. I believe the folks in Sanderson had some discussion with local LE before this season started. The LE in Sanderson cited 1 person for a traffic violation but that was it. I also heard about DPS hassling someone in another county about photography vs hunting.

I can't speak for all areas but I dont believe anyone has been ticketed yet for hunting. My guess is that they will push the limits when they find someone who has animals in there car. Even if they didn't see them pick any animals up... (Similar to Dan Krull's issue) Again, this is just my guess.

Glad to hear you stuck your ground.

BW,

StevenX

Thanks for sharing that story. Interesting. I find stories like that quite entertaining! Here's mine:
I remember pulling over the side of the road in S.GA. (back in 08') because I had to shift my reptile cages around. Bad mistake!
A sheriff saw me and asked if i needed help. I told him I had to reposition my snake cages. He said: "You got snakes?" He then had me wait around until the wildlife officer showed up. They tried to hassle me for having Eastern Kingsnakes (illegal to possess in GA), in my van (in 08'). I told him that I had just come back from the Daytona reptile show and the Eastern Kingsnakes were purchased from a breeder (who incidentally is also a wildlife officer in FL.). It's funny that when I purchased those snakes, I told the breeder please write me some receipts with your phone number on it, because I have to drive home through the state of GA, just in case my van breaks down, or I get pulled over, or whatever.... I sure am glad I did, otherwise they probably would have ticketed me for sure and seized the animals...
You got Hypo Stillwaters? I like those! Got some pics of your breeders?
Thanks (in advance).

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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Here is one of my adult pairs....

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Those are VERY nice!!!! I love those colors!
Thanks for the pictures. I really am interested in getting some VERY soon!
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

I love those! Wow!
You gonna be in Daytona this year?
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Genesis 1:1

I called each of the three West TX Game Warden districts two days before my arrival, telling them I'd be out looking on the roads and cuts for snakes. Invariably each asked if I had a collecting permit. I said no, I'll only be taking pictures. They said "no problem."

I also told them I would have collecting equipment in my vehicle, as I was camping on private land, and I might even have animals in the car. Again, no problem.

Two out of three seemed to be annoyed that I'd even call in advance for such a non-issue. However, I considered it important to be up-front and transparent as a measure of good faith.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris,

I am sorry I didnt get to talk with you at the Outback. I think you make a good point to be open. Some like to fly under the radar and that is fine too. I wish we could make a "sticky" to keep at the top of the forum for best practices while out in the field...

If you have access to land I would make darn sure I had the paper with stated permission so if I had an animal in the car it can prove it was not taken illegaly.

Best Wishes,

StevenX

You do not need papers to prove your animals are legal, they need proof you took them in some illegal manner.... I would not pander it backwards to them and make them treat us like a citizen of this country.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I strongly agree with Lance. We are still innocent until PROVEN guilty. They might try to go ahead and ticket you, but if you have a reasonable explanation for carrying the animals, and they have no evidence to the contrary, almost any judge is going to throw out the case.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I have to agree. I have never herped in Texas and am not all that familiar with the laws there. However, if said snakes are not illegal to possess, then shouldnt be a problem if you get pulled over and have them in your vehicle, snake hunting equipment or not. As long as you are not caught herping illegally, the burden of proof is on them. HOWEVER, even if they give you a bogus ticket you know you can get thrown out of court, some may just cave and pay it to not have to travel back to attend a court date!! I suspect LE knows this and kinda has you by the short ones on that!!

I'm sure some are willing to write bogus tickets but they know they are taking a risk in doing so. I tend to think that after they get a few overturned they begin to lose favor with the local judges.

You think that's bad, you should hear what that same sheriff did to Buzz. I saw the sheriff and a few deputies at the gas stations and walked up and spoke with them. I told them that I would be photographing stuff on the river road an they joked that I'd better use my turn signals or they'd pull me over. I never heard from them again fortunately...

>>you should hear what that same sheriff did to Buzz. I saw the sheriff and a few deputies at the gas stations

Which county Sheriff?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Hey Joe, it was down in Terlingua so it would be Brewster. Hearing what I've heard about this group of sheriffs it seems like they are really trying to intimidate the herping community.

What county were you in? Was the vehicle a border patrol or county sheriff Vehicle?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

It was at the gas station at study butte and it was the sherrif.

l8r

BREWSTER COUNTY sheriff? River Road is in Presidio county is why I'm asking. It's possible they were having fun at his expense??
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I think some of them think of it as a game, they want to be the first one on their block to catch a snake hunter. The one who engaged me on 277 a couple years ago was definately having fun. He never informed me of the law but he kept the conversation going as long as he could and every few minutes asked me if I had any snakes in the car. We were getting to be real good friends until a car went by at about 80mph and he hurriedly excused himself in order to persue a much more worthwhile apprehension. Which is what he should have been looking for in the first place, IMHO.

A guy from Colorado this past weekend was strip searched out of Loma Alta. They rifled through his car and took everything out and harrassed this guy (and his son) big time!!! he was quite irritated as he should have been. he said he would be writing letters to the state about this harrassment. Phone numbers and addresses were provided to him so he could file the complaint.

n/p?
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Wayne, Can you provide more details please? LE can search vehicles based on PC or if they think any type of drug or human trafficing is going on.

My guess is there is more to the story than two guys in an empty vehicle photographing critters.

BW,

StevenX

Dude wasn't "strip-searched"...dWayne was high when having the conversation. His vehicle was searched however. Apparently two wardens were there, one was gung-ho about the ordeal, the other VERY gung-ho. It was just a guy and his teenage son, no funny business going on. Clean cut, well-spoken, nothing screaming "search me".

Ok so it was game wardens and they were not strip searched. That's not so bad but I still say unless you tell them you are collecting or are actually observed collecting a snake they don't have the right to search your vehicle.

If all they see is you taking pictures and you tell them you are not collecting then they have no probable cause to search, IMHO.

I believe the sheriff called the game wardens...guy didn't seem like the belligerent type...I don't even think he was photographing anything when it all started. He did state his vehicle was off the road, flashers on...I saw him the next evening on 2400, and sure enough, even though it was dusk, he was off the road, blinkers on. Guy was hastled, not raped.

I am repeating verbatum what this dude told me, although I knew it was out of anger! He specifically said he was "stripped searched", and was quite pissed of about it at the time. Can't anyone have a little fun on this forum Maakie????? WTF??? Just repeating what he himself said although I knew he was talking about the inside of his vehicle.

It would be an outrage if that happened and all he was suspected of was collecting snakes, a class C misdemeanor. I would like more details if possible. Did he get beligerent? Not that that would justify a strip search anyways. Did the sheriff have a legitamate reason to suspect he was in possession of drugs? Drugs, paraphenelia, illegal immigrants, terrorists or some other felony would be the only thing to justify a strip search IMO. Otherwise this is a gross abuse of power and a waste of taxpayer money. There are real felons on these roads every night in west TX and that is what LE should be persueing. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here but this is unbelievable.

Joe, it was between Lajitas and Terlingua. For some reason both the Sheriff and a couple of Border Patrol (in separate vehicles) pulled me over.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

This activity absolutley kills me!! As if these "people" don't have other important things to worry about, like an invasion of this country by who knows what all! I am hearing of these reports all of last week and this is the third I know of regarding the Sheriff in Brewter County. Looks like some of us need to pay a visit to the Sheriff's office.

the same sheriff was giving us a hard time and we have a permit