Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have an older female normal ball that I have had for 10 years. She came to me from a snake call so I don't know her history. She produced for me many times, but I wasn't sure of her age and thinking that she is old, I decided to keep her out of the breeding program again this year. Lately I noticed her mimicking the behavior of a gravid female. I thought she must smell the eggs of other females and may be displaying sympathetic behaviors. Yesterday morning I checked and found her wrapped around a clutch of eggs! The last time this female was with a male was in 2006! Do you think she could retain viable sperm for that long? I am absolutely certain she has not been with any male since breeding with an albino in Feb. 2006, and she did not produce eggs that year.

Susan Sentman
SSNAKES

I think the eggs will go bad, especially with all those slugs involved. Time will tell though, good luck.

I had a friend with a Pope's viper that he had raised from a baby. It was the only one he had, and it gave birth. Mike

Although true parthenogenesis has been proven in many species of reptiles, including Burmese Pythons, Timber Rattlesnakes, and Water Monitors...I am more inclined to believe that it could be sperm retention.

A requirement of the animals that were used in scientific studies of parthenogenesis....they can never have been in contact with a male since birth. Thus eliminating the any possibilities of male/female interaction.

I have kept several species of snakes in the past that showed incredible sperm storage capabilities... (mostly pit vipers)
Several of them produced babies, without have been in the presence of any males for over a period of several years.
They were likely sperm storage rather than true parthenogenesis.
I will never really know...as I did not have the ability to easily do DNA screening for any evidence.
(In some cases I knew it was indeed sperm storage...because of the presence of male offspring...in other cases there were only female offspring produced....so the question of a possibility of true parthenogenesis remained.)

In cases of true parthenogenesis...all the offspring will be female...and they are basically genetic clones of the maternal female. Interesting stuff.

My friend Nowya Honda, Curator at the Marayama Zoo of Sapporo City in Japan, has a female Water Monitor that was a product of true parthenogenesis. Confirmed via DNA testing.

Artis Zoo in Amsterdam, The Netherlands proved true parthenogenesis in Burmese Pythons....also using DNA evidence.

Dr. David Chizar of the University of Colorado in Boulder proved true parthenogenesis in Timber Rattlesnake back in 1994 or 95.
The female was never in the presence of any males since birth.
Also confirmed via DNA.

I am sure there are several other examples of true parthenogenesis.
Those three eggs look good....did you candle them too?
Good luck with them.
Perhaps contact your local State University if you think it might be true parthenogenesis. There may be a grad student who is hungry for a good paper??? Might shed some light on your eggs, if they should hatch.

Take care,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611

I thought I remembered the article on the Burmese case mentioning that it was unusual that she was making female clones of herself. I thought it said that most other cases of parthenogenesis in snakes produced only males by doubling up half the female's chromosomes to make a fully homozygous animal. Since snake gender is zz male and zw female the double up method only makes zz males as ww is invalid and don't survive.

Amazing that snakes could have two totally different methods of parthenogenesis. Hopefully DNA testing will become available to the point that we can figure out how often this happens. Does it even happen when males are present? Could explain some of the reported cases of homozygous co-dominant males producing normals if there really isn’t always a father.

Randy,
You are correct.
I should have been more specific. In Boidae (Pythons and Boas) the offspring have, so far, always been female. They found "true" parthenogenesis in Burmese Pythons (Python m. bivittatus).
The same is true of Several Monitor species (Varanus sp.), Blind Snakes (Ramphotyphlops sp.), Old World Wall Lizards, (Lacerta sp.) and New World Race runner type lizards (Cnemidophorus sp.). This is the ZW "true" type of parthenogenesis....producing only female offspring. So far species of Boidae (which includes Pythons, such as Ball Pythons) have only shown true parthenogenesis forming only female (ZW) offspring.

However as Randy stated, there are certain species that can reproduce via AP type parthenogenesis (automatic parthenogenesis)...producing all male offspring. Males are ZZ. (If WW lines up...it causes the ova to be non-viable.) Hence, there is a reduction of viable ova and offspring produced from this type of parthenogenesis.

A list of several species of reptiles displaying this AP type are: Timber Rattlesnakes (Crotalus horridus), Aruba Island Rattlesnakes (Crotalus unicolor), Garter Snakes (Thanmnophis sp.) and Aurafura File or Australian Elephant Trunk Snakes (Acrochordus arafurae).

Interesting stuff.
.....................................................

On to another subject...

Kevin (Mr. Satan himself) brought up a good point. The possibility of the ova being potentially viable, but non-fertilized eggs.
As Kevin stated...this is a very common occurrence in reptiles.

I recall several times that I have received phone calls from concerned owners of Iguanas, Chameleons or Bearded Dragons...
The conversations go something like this:

"My Adult Male Iguana wont eat. It looks really fat...but it just stopped eating! What do I do???"
I say, "Well..I suspect that your Adult "Male" Iguana is actually an Adult Female...and I think SHE is full of eggs."

They say, "No...I am sure it is a Male...and besides, I raised it from a baby and it has always been alone....so it can't have eggs."
Then I suggest they take it to the Vet and ask for an X-Ray or an Ultrasound. Eventually they do...and sure enough the Iguana is confirmed to be an Adult female...full of non-fertilized, but potentially viable ova.
(Note: Once the ova have developed to the stage of the being shelled...they cannot be fertilized naturally.)
But...Could it be done with a syringe after ovoposition??? This leaves me with lots of creative ideas!!! (Can you see the wheels turning?)

The process of laying infertile ova could be likened to the monthly cycle of shedding ova in human females (the period).
It is somewhat similar. (However, I prefer women without such scaly skin!)

Since Susan noticed veins in the eggs then I suspect that it is most likely a case of sperm retention...although it could possibly be a case of True Parthenogenesis (ZW) female babies!
Perhaps if only one sex is produced, Susan could check with her State University to see if there is an eager biology/genetics student who is hungry for an interesting subject to write a paper about.
It might answer some questions....without costing you?

Good luck with the eggs and keep us posted.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

I would say incubate the ones that candle well for you and see what happens. In particular it could be interesting to see not only if they hatch, but WHAT they hatch.

What temperatures do you keep this female at?
-----
Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

First off, I agree w/previous poster! I'd have to bet these eggs go bad! Secondly, makes you kinda wonder, if anyone's ever bred the same female in back-to-back years involving hets and poss hets of different traits!

I candled the three eggs I'm incubating, but I'm not good at doing so. I did see minimal blood vessels (I never candle, just have an eye for good eggs). I didn't really think parthenogenesis, I immediately thought sperm retention and checked last dated copulation. Four years is a long time for retention of sperm! I tossed the four obvious duds and we'll see what happens. Will provide updates in the future.

Thanks for all the comments. Thanks Harlin for all the info on parthenogenesis...very interesting!

Susan
SSNAKES

I keep the female in a building with ambient temps at 82-84 degrees. She is housed in a Freedom Breeder unit with heat strips kept at 90-92 degrees. The eggs were laid just partially resting on the heated surface, exactly where most of the females lay their eggs. Given how the eggs were stuck to the plastic surface, I know they were laid a good 10-20 hours before I found them. She probably laid them early evening the night before.

Susan
SSNAKES

I was interested in the temperature because the ability to retain sperm would, in my opinion, rely a lot on the snake's internal temperature. The cooler the snake is kept the longer they may be able to retain sperm. Though if she is using the hot spots you provide her I would not expect her to be able to retain sperm for so long.
But who knows? The increased temperatures usually damage the sperm themselves, but not necessarily the DNA they contain. If the female actively transports the saved sperm to the ripe ova herself, then the sperm could be "dead" and still be viable, in a sense.

All a bit technical. In any case, keep us informed. This could be interesting!
-----
Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

I see ALOT of yellow in those eggs so I highly doubt that they are fertile myself! Interesting that she laid them I agree!

Anthony McCain

Besides Parthenogenesis and Sperm retention you first must candle the eggs in a dark room with a flashlight. If you don't see evidence of blood vessels then you are looking at viable but unfertile eggs. This even happens to us breeders when we introduce males. You get a full term viable follicle that did everything right but there was no sperm able to reach it for fertilization. I would seriously doubt sperm retention and guess that these eggs are viable but unfertile. I have had parthenogenesis with an African Rock and fertility was low but there were several fertile eggs.

Hopefully I am wrong!

SATAN
-----
"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

That sounds logical Kevin and I bet that is what I have here. But I sure would like to see something live come out of these eggs!

Susan
SSNAKES