Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK this is a continuation of the thread below (off topic/my zoo) about "wild type" corns being illegal in NJ. I think the topic deserves its own thread...

The entire concept of species being endangered at a state level is somewhat arbitrary and bogus.

OK on the one hand I get that we want to preserve species across as much of their natural range as possible and that different populations have unique characteristics ect. I get it. I am a locality specific collector. But there are some major problems with the whole mentality as well.

For example... a project I worked on... The eastern black racer is a COMMON snake over most of its range. Southern Vermont is the historic northern most extent of its range. I won't specify where, but the known range is tiny and when I say southern vermont I want to be clear that I actually mean a parcel of land that is no more than 7 miles from the Massachusetts border at any point. For many years they were presumed to be extinct in the state. Then someone found one right smack on the Mass border and...presto!... Vermont has its most endangered reptile!

Now we estimate that there are a whopping total of 7 adult eastern black racers that use habitat in Vermont and may spend some of the year in Mass too. VT has paid for numerous radio telemetry studies, habitat restoration, road construction, ect all in the name of protecting this "endangered" species.

Lets be clear. VT does have some seriously threatened species (herptile and others) that could use a lot more money than they get. And they are spending absurd amounts to protect a species that is abundant starting 50 miles south of VT and covering half the country!

Really what does a state line mean to a reptile? No one would care if the range of a species decreased by a measly 50 miles WITHIN a state!

So corns in NJ... do they even belong in NJ or were they introduced? I have heard that rumor but I think it is exactly that, a rumor. There is nothing stopping corns from populating up to the northern limit of the pine barrens. There is also no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to keep captive bred animals from a species that is dirt common everywhere, and there is little incentive to collect from the wild (which already has its own law making it illegal!)

I once got into an argument with an inspector who came into my pet store and started giving us crap about having an adult pair of abbot okeetees for sale. She said that they are wild type corns and they are illegal. I said no they are not they are a captive mutation, you show me a wild corn in NJ that looks anything like that! We went back and forth, I argued, what if a kid has two different morph corns and breeds them together and gets double hets? Is that illegal?... Yep! Needless to say, I lost that arguement. Complete BS if you ask me.

...stepping off soap box...

Thoughts?

I've always thought there ought to be a way to declare something endangered at a state level; let's say that box turtles, while common over most of their range, have been over collected/lost too much habitat/been eaten/whatever to the point that they occupy a small portion of the former state range. Protect 'em within the state. Set aside habitat, disallow development on box turtle habitat, etc.

But that ain't how it works, sadly. You get states that protect something that never had a signifcant range in the state; migrants sometimes may have come in (like with your racers) say. There have been an occasional wanderer (like wolverines in colorado). But they've never had a self sustaining population in the area. You get states deciding to outlaw private ownership but allow major tracts of habitat to get bulldozed--I can't go and collect box turtles from that beautiful field I used to find them in before it's bulldozed, killing them all...in the name of protecting them. Where's the logic?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

No, many state laws do not make sense from that perspective. I can see some states wanting to preserve their unique and indigenous wildlife that may be threatened, but also feel its assinine for these same states to allow permitting to develop prime habitat of the species they are trying to protect. Here in Louisiana, you can still own box turtles found in the wild. No law against collecting and having a certain number in your possession. Over the years many have been successfull at captive breeding them but cannot sell the offspring as the sale of ANY boxturtle in LA is illegal. Its also illegal to release the babies, or any boxturtle once in captivity (pretty much the same nation wide). So, most box turtle keepers here have to give away the babies which legally are sold by petshops and dealers elsewhere!!! What the state should do is ALLOW the sale of boxturtles LESS THAN FOUR INCHES which would provide a market for these cb babies, and hopefully stop as much collection from wild populations!!

Here try this one on, what if a state that had no direct ties to a certain "animal" just in general and decided that "hey lets make the "animal" in question endangered. But here is the kicker, they decide to go to the federal level and push a bill that would protect that "animal" in all states or at least in certain states. Maybe they have some pull like that with the government....

My point to all this is anytime you give a state or federal official the ability to pass a law to protect anything, that in turn give them the right to take things away. Corns in New Jersey, it maybe illegal to own, wild caught or captive bred. That was not passed to just protect the wild caught, it was also passed to keep anyone from having one period, therefore taking away from the collectors, breeders, and educators.....

This is just my take on our government sticking there noses in where it really doesn't belong......

You bring up another good point. Even if an animal had a historic range someplace (wolverines in CO... another project I actually worked on), that doesn't mean that they will ever come back no matter what we do. Wolverines are secretive. They need deep snow pack and most importantly they need to be left alone! Their are WAY too many people living all over the state of Colorado for wolverines to ever have a chance at coming back. The government would literally have to kick people off their land to restore large enough habitat for wolverines. Never going to happen. There are also numerous baricades (about 12 different 4 lane highways and many miles of unsuitable habitat) that prevent wolverines from migrating back into Colorado even if they wanted to.

Yet despite all this the state still pays to SURVEY for them when they haven't been seen in DECADES if not longer. They even go so far as to manage habitat for them! The CO division of wildlife and the forest service wildlife biologists have their hands tied. Instead of spending all of their resources working on projects that actually matter (boreal toad and bighorn sheep recoveries) they have to take entire days, and large swaths of money, wasted on a hopeless cause.

The inconsistency, hypocrisy, politics, and lack of educated law makers are glaring. Several years ago a lone grey wolf was found hit by a car on I70 only about 30 miles outside of Denver. Did the state bother to think, hmmm maybe wolves could make a comeback in CO (which they could)? Did they start to manage habitat for wolves like they do fo wolverines? No, they called it a fluke just to escape the nightmare wolf debate going on up north. Pansies!

Speaking of bulldozing. The same thing happens to great snake habitat here in Washington state, yet it is illegal to collect any reptiles from the wild. There are plenty of rubber boas in Washington, but illegal to even touch. Where is the sense in that?

Across the Columbia River in Oregon, there is no limit on collecting non-game species, except for specified species perceived to be rare (example: sharp tailed snakes). So I just got my first pair of WC Oregon rubber boas (cool snakes by the way.)
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Kent

0.1 Hypomelanistic striped cornsnake
1.0 Lavender cornsnake
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase
1.1 Oregon rubber boas

Here in Texas we have a law protecting Drymarchon (Indigos).....
Our native Indigos are NOT endangered and they are some of the most common snakes down in south Texas.....No population problem AT ALL.....

The only reason they are protected is because some good ole boy law maker found out "those things eat rattlesnakes" and said they should be protected........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

John, don't LA Pines (ruthveni) share the same protection in Texas? I had a buddy who lived in TX for several years and recently moved back to LA. He could not keep his LA pines while in TX.

Since CB texas indigos and LA pines are legal in other states, I think those states should at least allow permits to keep cb animals as long as the appropriate paperwork was provided for receiving the permit.

Then again, I wonder how many "illegal" animals are kept in the respective states. I am sure there are kids (and adults) somehwere in GA keeping corns and eastern kings, and the same keeping indigos and LA pines in TX!!

They could do it if they wanted. They could have a Micro chip system with data from the breeders and charge a permit fee and make some money. But I believe they are more interested in stopping the animal trade all together sometimes. I would pay extra for a pair of legal Indigos that I could breed and legally sell the babies!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>John, don't LA Pines (ruthveni) share the same protection in Texas? I had a buddy who lived in TX for several years and recently moved back to LA. He could not keep his LA pines while in TX.
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>>Since CB texas indigos and LA pines are legal in other states, I think those states should at least allow permits to keep cb animals as long as the appropriate paperwork was provided for receiving the permit.
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>>Then again, I wonder how many "illegal" animals are kept in the respective states. I am sure there are kids (and adults) somehwere in GA keeping corns and eastern kings, and the same keeping indigos and LA pines in TX!!

Yep LA Pines are protected too......
And yep there's lots of folks keeping stuff "illegally."

Just as folks are sending Cash, Drugs and Weapons via FedEx and UPS......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

It is common for many states to pass laws which restrict or eliminate private ownership of native reptiles with the intention of decreasing collection and thus reducing stress on wild populations. In most places however these collection laws are not enforced allowing semi-profesional reptile hunters to collect reptiles and ship them out of state (or internationally) where they are legal to own. There is a strong financial incentive to do this, especially in species that do not have large captive breeding pools to compete with wild caught markets. This is true 10 fold for species that have laws preventing people from establishing captive populations (4 inch laws, CITES restrictions, etc.)

Now many local governments are also pushing for restrictions in ownership of non-native species because of a risk (real or percieved?) that introduced herps may damage wild ecosystems. This leaves people angry that they can't keep their favorite pets, research subjects, and collections that they want to. We need intelligent laws where species that actually may damage the ecosystems are outlawed or regulated (sorry Floridians but its true!). And species that pose no threat are not included. The current USARK is a great start and should have every herpers full support.

I believe that the states should handle their local wildlife in exactly the reverse way as they do now. They should encourage collection and breeding of local species (with bag limits). They should publish guidelines about how to release captive bred offspring safely and legally (with veterinary approval, and near the original collection location). They should forbid the sale of wild caught animals (I know difficult to enforce). And then they should sit back and watch while the public learns about and cares for its native wildlife, propagates them and reestablishes wild populations, and provides a captive bred market that will easily out compete the trade in wild caught specimens (as we have seen with numerous species). These laws were created before herpetoculture by the public was a reality and they are now in need of review.

Many ecologists will site flaws in the plan above... and there are many valid ones. But I ask, are those flaws worse than the system currently in place? We are watching our native reptiles disappear across the country right before our eyes. We need new ideas, not the same old ones that have proven faulty.

Your again missing the point, to take them out of the hands of the public, is to keep the animals out of the mind of the public. Most of the people who keep snakes will vote in a way to protect these snakes. Like the real protection of habitat.

To take the animals out of the publics hands, is a way to control the direction of voting. In otherwords, its to keep the public stupid and the government has no worries. I know, this is sad, but if consider this approach, it makes far far far far more sense then what they are doing.

It really is common sense, the less we the public know, the easier it is for government to work its magic.

In otherwords Zach, your toooo smart, your asking real questions. But those real questions will indeed cause OUR government grief in the future. Our government wants your tax dollars and will do anything to get it.

For instance, if each one of us donated $200 to our state governments and $200 to the feds, with the stipulation that they can keep $100 of our donation and they have to use the other $100 to purchase natural lands and LEAVE THEM natural, would they do it??????? would you do that?????Cheers

The government prays (and thrives) on ignorance. But I refuse to just bend over for it.

I used to see hundreds of kids come through the pet store I managed back in NJ. These kids were bright, loved reptiles, and could spout boat loads of information off the tops of their heads about whatever madagascar species they were keeping in a box. They would go home, look at snake porn online, buy books on foreign species, and then grow up and go to school thinking that all the cool stuff lives somewhere else! That real conservation has to happen half a world away!

These same kids couldn't identify an eastern milk snake if it bit them and I handed them a field guide. Why? Because they are illegal. Because every nature center and summer camp teaches these kids that their native wildlife is best "left alone". Its crap. People's passions are capable of being redirected by grassroots movement. Typing on this forum is just a place for me to vent, but I can assure you that there are more serious endeavors coming down the pipeline. In the mean time, supporting USARK and programs like TWI are a great start.

I used to see hundreds of kids come through the pet store I managed back in NJ. These kids were bright, loved reptiles, and could spout boat loads of information off the tops of their heads about whatever madagascar species they were keeping in a box. They would go home, look at snake porn online, buy books on foreign species, and then grow up and go to school thinking that all the cool stuff lives somewhere else! That real conservation has to happen half a world away!
I try to be involved in conservation and zoos on a volunteer basis and I see this all the freaking time. Hell, I was guilty of it as a kid too. There's an amazing array of wildlife in most of North American. We've got loads of critters that are jaw droppingly awesome. But the focus is on stuff half a world away--cape buffalo and spitting cobras rather than elk and garter snakes. Most zoos devote a large percentage of their space to exotics it seems like, giving short shrift to native species. Wildlife documentaries don't (usually) focus on animals that most of their viewers might ever actually see in person without traveling thousands of miles.
We've got nature right here that we need to protect. Kids that come to the zoo I volunteer at can usually tell me more about the Amazon rainforest or the Kalahari than about Palo Duro Canyon State park and llano estacado. It's freaking heartbreaking. There's so much to see in most of North America and people just don't see it seems like.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

There is a huge problem with laws, protection and conservation and our rights as citizens of the United States of America.

Then when politics gets involved it all goes to hell in a hat basket.

After decades of SEEING what your seeing, I and many other biologist have come to the conclusion that conservation on a political level is not all its cracked up to be.

For instance your right about which species should get protection and HELP. But your the one missing the point. Political conservation, is all about slight of hand. While the public is watching the state protect Racers, the animals that actually need protection, get their habitat destroyed. Then on to another "Project species" all the while other animals disappear due to habitat destruction. What ever happened to the fuzzy little seals on the ice flows, are they still being clubbed?

Of course the subject of over collection is played to the point that many of YOU believe it. Simply put, these animals survived and survive predators that make us look like fumbling idiots. Simply put, we are very poor predators, EXCEPT when we use bull dozers and tractors and chain saws.

Habitat conservation is the KEY to all species, not just one. If you allow for natural habitat, you allow for the native natural plants and animals to exist. Without that, you have no black racer.

In your case, to support Black racers, you must support what it needs to exist.

In most cases, reptiles face a time of strong support, as what is most threatened is large predators. Once these are gone or limited, smaller predators, like our snakes, will have a field day, as we somehow cannot figure out how to control rodents. The more we do, the better it is for rodents. So the species of snakes that feed on rodents will remain strong, as long as we leave some manner of area for them, like parks, fields and areas we cannot build on.

Of course the above are only a few examples of what is going on, but all in all, it does appear like protection is a way to allow animals to disappear. A diversion if you will.

For instance, species like the Mexican wolf and condor, what a joke. IF you wanted to establish real populations, all you have to do is set up breeding pens in the area of concern and then let of offspring move out from there. Same with condors, the offspring will hack out in the areas they hatch. You cannot hatch them in San Diego and turn them loose a few hundred miles away. Well you can, but what it will do is make it a very expensive project that will cost more and more and has very little chance of working. They will require our constant involvement. We should all know that most species IMPRINT on home range very early in life, in fact, within a few weeks of birth. So why do they do it the hard way????????? The government does hire the smartest of the smart, don't they? Do you think they know this and choose to take another direction? My bet is yes.

They, our government, will not hinder people for the sake of animals, after all, the government "is" BY THE PEOPLE and FOR THE PEOPLE. Not by the ecosystem or for the ecosystem. That is, until we start dying off. Cheers

All good points... the best being that over collection is easy to point fingers at but really has very little effect on most populations.

The only exception that I know of is with species that have very low natural predation rates, very slow reproductive rates, and are easy to find. Box turtles being the shining example of a species that is actually adversely effected by taking even just a few ADULT individuals from a population. But most herps have reproductive biology nothing like that of tortoises!

Think about Long Island, a sand island full of people and box turtles. It has been full of people for a very long time and there are still box turtles.

I have to ask, were box turtles native to long island, what was long island before white man got here? Just some thoughts.

Not that collection should not be regulated, making more people should be regulated.

Do you think box turtles or deer produce more offspring? We still hunt deer and they produce very little. ALso the point with box turtles is not how long they live, but at what age do they start to recruit???????? Their longevitiy is a benefit, they can and do recruit for 97 out of their 100 year lifespan. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm I hate this thinking crap. hahahahahahahahaha

You see, its not the age of box turtles thats important, its the amount of offspring that reach sexual maturity. This is a direction, I hope you entertain, when thinking about species.

You are right, without bogs, there would be no bog turtles, so worry about bogs, not the turtle, the turtle will be fine if it has its bog. Same for box turtles, all they need is a box, what, that's not right, hahahahahahahahahahahaha you get the point. Cheers

But not I nor anyone else is going to touch that one with a 10 foot pole.

Who do you think has the power, money and control to manage the public? Government. These laws very rarely effectively help the individual species. Too often the status is used to promote political sideshows so a politician can look like he cares about animals. The laws are set up so they can manage the people that venture to PROFIT from the use of said animals and habitat. If there isnt a buck to be made you generally wont see much regulation.

Yes population control would have a much more dramatic effect towards saving the environment than laws that prohibit collection. As you said nobody wants to broach that subject. Well almost nobody. There are quite a few herp keepers who seem interested in that subject though. Isn't it interesting that herp collecters seem to be among those most willing to examine that topic? Of course if herp keeping is banned a large number of people who are willing to discuss population control and other unpleasant environmental issues, would be silenced. As Frank would say. "Hmmm..."

COMPLETELY AGREE ON EVERY LEVEL! Sometimes people need to open there eyes and SEE what's going on. Most don't though. Awesome post Frank. Steve

Anyone ever heard of Eric Pianca? (I'm sure you have FR) He had a lecture about human population and got RIDICULED! It's too bad when a person has an opinion which cannot be disputed states his mind and gets persecuted for it. If I were to say the rat population is out of control, no one would have a problem. Oh well, I'll just keep watching 17 kids and counting and forget about it. LOL.

Habitat conservation is the KEY to all species, not just one. If you allow for natural habitat, you allow for the native natural plants and animals to exist. Without that, you have no black racer.

This. 1000 times this. If you "protect" the animals from collection, but then destroy the homes, what the hell good have you done?
I've seen habitat for protected species bulldozed far too many times. If you want endangered animals to live outside of captivity they have to have places to live. They gotta be able to find shelter, water, food, etc.
One of the vacant lots in the town I went to college in; it had horned lizards, and ornate box turtles. Both protected from collection. it was a fairly large lot. It got bulldozed last year. Another apartment complex went in. What "protection" did the animals receive?

Why are we managing grizzly bears and wolves without discussing preserving habitats for them? We set aside relatively tiny chunks of land that can't support a self-sustaining population. It just makes them very expensive pet projects for people. Why do protect box turtles from collection then bulldoze their habitat?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Why are we managing grizzly bears and wolves without discussing preserving habitats for them? We set aside relatively tiny chunks of land that can't support a self-sustaining population. It just makes them very expensive pet projects for people. Why do protect box turtles from collection then bulldoze their habitat?
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Quite simply the land owned is worth more than the animals on it. When the animal is worth more than the land people will preserve it.

Once the government "owns" the animal they are able to "sell" it too. Since the people running the government changes according to elections one year they may be truly interested in protecting the animals and their habitat but the next year, or next decade, they may be interested in "selling" them, the habitat that is.

That is why the voting public needs to be aware and interested in protecting habitats. Private ownership and private collecting are but two of many ways to keep the public interested in protecting herps and their habitats. But they are very effective as has been shown with game animals and fish.

true facts every idiot in the world knows....

all snakes can kill you
all have fangs
all have venom...wait ,poison...
lawnmowers and rakes and shovels are to be used on snakes at all cost
cars can run over snakes,it's a must....
snakes can flatten tires though...
snakes can be run over and live (actually true a little)
box turtles love to live in grass yards with fences and be fed 3 tomatoes and 4 strawberries a year....
praying mantises are illegal to kill...(NOT)
pheasants are native to North America as well as carp,red foxes,starlings,english sparrows...etc etc etc...
pheasants are now gone...due to the Game Commisions...NOT over farming practices...
eels are endangered .....by over collecting and dams...(true, wait)...
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snakes don't know state lines...we still have to live with the rules....rules are broken all the time by alot of people...there is a market for all stuff....

the idea of people buying odd critters is true...if you can afford it you can buy it....I know people that had otters and pumas in the cellar....ground hogs that came indoors and slept in a dog box(free whistle pig)....a guy that got phone call asking if he wanted 2 baby tigers?....(from a zoo)....wow...he had a few acre farm in a town....

anyways.....there are all kinds of thoughts and ideas....and we are not allowed to release captive snakes.....sucks....

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......JY

I followed most of that.. and I get the point... everything about our ecosystems, government, and yes, the reptile hobby, is pretty F'd.

But red foxes are native. Unless you are Australian.

what would you change bout the reptile hobby?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Ha! Too much to write here. I will think about it though and post later.

Guess this is getting off on yet another tangent, but when you say Eastern racer, which subspecies are you referring to? We've got Coluber constrictor constrictor (Northern Black Racers) in southern Maine, and as I understand it, they're not too hard to find if you know where to look. My dad (who also posts here occasionally) found one a few weeks ago, should be able to get some pictures of it when I head down to the "deep south" (York County) to visit him this weekend.

Nate

Coluber constrictor constrictor or the northern black racer is the species that I am referring to. It is the only large black snake and the only racer to my knowledge in northern new england.

You are right. There are populations in southern Maine that are more northern than the ones in VT. To my knowledge they are only in southern main and are not very common - only a few scattered populations that all gather at a few critical denning sites. VT is pretty close to the northern most limit but I guess I just should have said the edge of their natural range. Several of the other subspecies in other parts of the US are found even further north up into Canada.

If a endangered species occurs then politicians drool. They need money, to study this and that and come up with conclusion that they need another study so they need to drain more monies from the til. All the time this is going on pockets are getting lined and and jobs are "justified". If we stopped breaking laws do you really think the lawmakers would just quit?? NOPE, they are constantly inventing and applying new laws to justify their own existence. Its about money, which ultimately is about CONTROL as well. Its not as if they would actually prosecute you for any of these laws.....but they would have the control to decide such things.

Years ago I was part of a sting as the "expert witness"(no snickering!). My state's LE has no idea what is what for species only that pet stores were running amuk with illegals. I remember one store in particular was written up for about 40-50 violations, animals confiscated then returned. They ended up with a small fine, after all the hubub. The bust was a big deal at the time, there were about 10 undercover and state and environmental police...everyone wanted a piece of the bust. A total sideshow. The fine didnt cover the time of the officers involved which brings you right back to the beginning...why bother?

I would argue that the captive bred reptile industry is infinitely more profitable than the wild caught one. I think that these laws hurt commerce, restrict the flow of knowlege and passion about native wildlife, and are simply ignorant about the needs of the animals themselves. More over I think that in today's eco friendly political climate that politicians would be wise to do more than just greenwash. People will gather behind someone they can trust on environmental issues.

I believe in plenty of conspiracy theories and money trails, but some things you can chock up to plain ignorance.

Reminds me of a quote my father always used to say...
If you will not lead you are bound to be led by people less qualified than yourself.

Politicians are not scientists. They hire scientists and then the try miserably to only adopt the parts that are convenient for them to get ELECTED.

And you have hit on the crux, there is a gap between the written law and the enforced law.