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king snakes? milks? ... anyone got a list to run down? just curious. thanks.

From what I understand, you can create corn hybrids by crossing corns with pretty much any other egg-laying colubrid native to North America. This includes other NA ratsnakes, kingsnakes, milksnakes, and gopher/pine/bull snakes. That having been said, there's likely alot of trickery and mate-switching involved, as corns will not willingly breed with most other species. The best person to get in contact with, if you're serious about hybridizing, would be Dwight Good.
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

Maybe we can outcross everything and just have one snake.Wouldnt that be great?This is my new,pastel,blizzard,reticulated,het granite,tangerine,pythonboareticulated corn .Or maybe we shouldnt mess with nature at all and enjoy and preserve what we have....Paul.

Now what's so wrong with giving an honest answer? Corns can breed with kings, milks, etc. What he -should- breed it with is another question.
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-audri
Webpage/Pics

because our luck he'll actually dump a tub of kingsnakes in with his corn, they by some miracle of god, they don't eat it (or each other), but actually create some wicked cool color of corn and eventually escapes (like 90% of the posts around here), works itself into the local ecosystem, infects the gene pools of local populations and eventually is responsible for the extinction of a species, the rise of a demigod - cornokingos snakes that only eat salty flavored rats and africanized pinkies which leads to an excess of rodent population in the US, increase in cases of bubonic plague and by that time I'll be out of medical school and...hey, wait, 100's of millions needing antibiotics and physicians get paid by the perscription, WHOO HOO! HYBRIDIZE AWAY!

Then again, we inject hormones into our cows and hybridize our agricultural stock to make the best of the best, so maybe bigger, brighter and more colorful is moral...

ew, not going there...

DISCLAIMER: This message was to get a smerk or possible a smile from those otherwise frowning at an otherwise colorless computer screen. I am not responsible for cracks in faces nor offending anyone, temporary insanity is a side effect of over-studying. If you are in a serious mood and took offense- piss off, go be serious somewhere else. Life and my break periods are too short to be serious. lol, take er easy everyone, back to the gallows...

So... we should look to nature for our morals, is that what you're saying? Anything that's natural is good, but anything that man had an influence on is bad? It doesn't follow... Admittedly the human race is far from perfect, and does propogate much damage to the planet, furry animals, rainforests, yaddayadda, BUT...

Nature invented rape. Nature invented murder. Nature invented patricide and cannibalism. Nature invented infidelity. And hey... nature invented humans.

Much of what mankind and society considers to be moral is the exact opposite of what nature has provided us with. Furthermore, species designations are human-imposed. Nature isn't this all-knowing persona that people imagine. Nature is simply used to describe something that wasn't created by man. The fallacy is in attributing any moral code to nature at all.

And to answer the question, 'Why breed jungles when there are perfectly good morphs lying around to play with?'... why do anything? Why did Columbus sail across the ocean to discover a new route to the East Indies? They HAD a route. He didn't need to find a new one. Why go into space? We've got a perfectly good planet right here. No need to explore new areas. Shoot, there's plenty of planet still left unexplored. So why bother with that space stuff? It's just a load of trouble. Why climb that mountain over there? There's five other mountains nearby. Just climb those instead.

So here's a question for you... Where is it written, that 'Thou shalt not mix species'? Or even, 'nature is morality'? Seriously. If you can quote me a passage somewhere, point me to someplace I can go look it up, I'd like to see it. Otherwise, I'll just have to continue lumping hybridization in with that category of things that if done responsibly cause no harm, but people are too busy worried about what would happen if they're done irresponsibly that they crucify it as 'wrong'. Keeping guns is 'wrong', playing violent videogames is 'wrong', watching TV is 'wrong'... but the funny thing is, if people are responsible about those sorts of things, nothing bad happens. If people are responsible about hybrids, nothing bad will happen there either.
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

That's a Dolly Parton song.Wanna dance kat?I do a bad as hell beer barrel polka.

I said "ew, not going there"

After 8 hours of reading/studying you think I want to read about what some herper in the middle of no-where america thinks about the morals of human intervention when it comes to nature. Well, unless you have a Doctorate in philosophy we need not have this conversation (and even then I'd probably ignore you)...

Sorry, it's just exhaustion and me not be clear as to not wanting to start a conversation about the morality of mixing crap together.

If you're that bored do a report on utilitarianism and have it on my PC by tomorrow morning- STAT.

please don't take offense, I'm too tired to fight and I'm definitely too tired to respond...

Hmm... no offense, but your 'Doctorate of Philosphy' comment implies that anyone who does not have a PhD in philosophy is unfit to debate any topic of moral question, let alone one of -minor- moral question.

But, ok, whatever. Seems to me that arguing hybrid/anti-hybrid is like arguing religion or politics. Ya can't change the other side's mind no matter what argument you present, and in the grand scheme of things it won't really matter either way... but you can sure get a heated discussion going fast.
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

in response:

"So... we should look to nature for our morals, is that what you're saying? Anything that's natural is good, but anything that man had an influence on is bad? It doesn't follow... Admittedly the human race is far from perfect, and does propogate much damage to the planet, furry animals, rainforests, yaddayadda, BUT... "

- no I wasn't saying that. I am saying that if we, as a scientific society like to play god we better understand that the substitute butter, gigantic turnip and artifical sweetners will never be as perfect as the striaght from nature commodity and most likely will contain reprocussive backlash (cancer, cornokingos salty rat eating etc)

"Nature invented rape. Nature invented murder. Nature invented patricide and cannibalism. Nature invented infidelity. And hey... nature invented humans. "

-Ideas like "rape", "murder", "cannibalism" are nothing more than north american societal forms of deviant behavior based on a moral system of a specific group of people. Nature did not invent these things, we just named the behaviors and tagged them as bad. They all serve a purpose and have a place- so I guess we agree?

"Much of what mankind and society considers to be moral is the exact opposite of what nature has provided us with. Furthermore, species designations are human-imposed. Nature isn't this all-knowing persona that people imagine. Nature is simply used to describe something that wasn't created by man. The fallacy is in attributing any moral code to nature at all."

-Species designations are categorizations but also there is a lot of genetic information to designate natural, clear cut "species" differentiations. The rest I guess I agree: see above. I guess I agree- there are natural barriers (genetics) as natures way of saying that mouse sperm and elephant egg just weren't meant to be. So if nature didn't want kings and corns to mix they would be incompatible, but they are (probably because they came from the same animal to begin with (COME ON EVOLUTIONS HELP ME OUT HERE) and all we are doing is re-verging these animals that originally diverged millions of years ago.

"And to answer the question, 'Why breed jungles when there are perfectly good morphs lying around to play with?'... why do anything? Why did Columbus sail across the ocean to discover a new route to the East Indies? They HAD a route. He didn't need to find a new one. Why go into space? We've got a perfectly good planet right here. No need to explore new areas. Shoot, there's plenty of planet still left unexplored. So why bother with that space stuff? It's just a load of trouble. Why climb that mountain over there? There's five other mountains nearby. Just climb those instead. "

-lol, why do anything? I thought it was the West Indies and he was looking for Gold and Spices too. They did need to find a new one, cause the one they had sucked. Corns don't suck, we don't need new one's.
-why go into space? argh, the server can't hold the text it would take to answer that question, the answers are endless and MUCH more complex than just "we are bored and need another planet to explore".
-sigh

"So here's a question for you... Where is it written, that 'Thou shalt not mix species'? Or even, 'nature is morality'? Seriously. If you can quote me a passage somewhere, point me to someplace I can go look it up, I'd like to see it. Otherwise, I'll just have to continue lumping hybridization in with that category of things that if done responsibly cause no harm, but people are too busy worried about what would happen if they're done irresponsibly that they crucify it as 'wrong'. Keeping guns is 'wrong', playing violent videogames is 'wrong', watching TV is 'wrong'... but the funny thing is, if people are responsible about those sorts of things, nothing bad happens. If people are responsible about hybrids, nothing bad will happen there either."

-First, thou shalt not do anything suggests everyone is run under some sort of christian law based on the 10 commandments.
Fortunately, morality is a bit more complex than the 10 items on the list....

oh, I love this part, now everyone pay attention. "if done responsibly cause no harm"
---***you little idealist you. This country is forced to run under the idea that the ignorant, irresponsible few dictate what the educated reponsible majority has access too. We are forced to only live at the means of the lowest end of our society. Let me explain a little more. Guns, Video Games, Violent TV, all perfectly acceptable for the 1.) people who properly lock and keep guns, 2.) Parents who can talk to their children about the violence in video games, tv and everday life 3.) etc. BUT, BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT! Parents don't talk to their kids, kids are rasied by sex, drugs, violence, games, they leave their unlocked, loaded guns out and accessible, and it's those people that end up Gunning YOUR kid down in a high school. SO, because we can't control the number or breadth of idiots out there we have to control the access that the idiots have to things that can hurt the majority. I know it seems unnecssarily restrictive and unfair to responsible people like us, but LIFE IS UNFAIR, and it's better to accept that live is unfair, ban guns, etc and live idiot free than it is to maintain suseptibility. If you put away your anger for a minute while watching bowling for columbine and get pasted the "anti-gun" message, you will see that all Mike Moore was trying to do was make that exact point, we can't control the idiots, so we have to control their access to things that can kill us.

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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?" -chicken fingers

"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead." -can I call them chickens?

mmm bed... *drool*

Maybe you fit in the idiot category and I should control you!

That's the problem with liberals, "they" think they know what is good for us. What a load of Crap.

you're right, conservatives have done great things for this country.. *looks over shoulder at 9 million out of work and 42.5 million without healthcare*

Least we're safe from 'nucular' threats now... LOL

"I know it seems unnecssarily restrictive and unfair to responsible people like us, but LIFE IS UNFAIR, and it's better to accept that live is unfair, ban guns, etc and live idiot free than it is to maintain suseptibility"

Anyone that has the b@lls to make a statement like that needs to find a different country to live in! This is the land of the free NOT the home of the repressed!

Take away all that can hurt us and our poor idiots? It's still a load of crap!

And you'll see you live in a FREE country that our men fight and die for!
You wouldn't talk so lightly of your freedom if you had none!

try running down the middle of the street naked some time and see how well those freedom's work for you? Maybe after you post bail you'll realize that there needs to be limits to certain things. Kind of a wierd country that allows guns but feings nudity... lol.

I'm all about freedom, this country was FOUNDED on the most amazing set of principles. However these freedoms did not includ freedom for all to do all whenever all wants to. They don't call them "basic" rights because they're all-inclusive. Today this country is far from living up to half of those ideals and while you sit back in your arm chair sipping your home brew, oiling your gun, Bill Gates is bribing your congressman to chop down those woods around the corner for you to clear way for the next MS manufacturing plant.

Your kid may not get shot when he goes to school tomorrow nor your house bought out from under you, but it will catch up. Money, not freedom, run this country unfortunately and to sit back and think we are "free" (or should be "free" to do whatever whenever wherever- NOT what our forefathers had in mind- see Bill of Rights) and life is grand is sad. This country could really use a leader who could stand up to big business, be willing to tax the rich and get a grip on fear in this country (and thereby decreasing the number of idiots instead of the number of guns)...

Indeed, a right to bear arms, no question about, no desputation or disagreement. Sport shooting is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen, it's a trade, a skill, etc.

I've said my peace, back to the HERPS!!!!!

they are really nice and pretty........LOL

the good ones are nice......some have genetic problems.......

mix what you want you'all..........

I buy them from time to time..........

sinaloae x corn x corn x cal kings were really pretty snakes.......triple clutched.....never stopped eating..ate and layed the same day......layed before she shed.........she was an odd ittle girl..........her kids were all different.........15 different colors in one clutch..........Mark Bell has a bunch of them.............yep.........

JY

Seriously, you totally dismissed my question... Where is it written, in -any- text meant for moral guidance, that hybridizing is immoral? It's a question I would like an answer to.

All things considered, I was under the impression that critters like mules, and other hybrids, have their place in society, and have had such a place in prior times. In fact, I'd be surprised if any less-than-modern text spoke ill of hybridizing animals. You're more likely to find texts advocating against the hybridization of 'races' (as there were and are a good deal of racial bigots out there) than you are to find anything against hybridizing animals.

When you have something to cite, do please let me know. Antihybridization is a modern concept AFAIK, I'd be interested to find older references.
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

1.) forget that Doctorate comment I made

2.) The idea of philosophy and morality is to figure out the best way to determine if something is morals. You will never find a philosophy text that tells you this is right or this is wrong, they merely try to find a concrete way to prove what is moral and works in every situation...

I can't believe you're getting so upset abouth this, I honestly don't even care about hybridizing either way, I was just trying to make some points and keep things on the ligher side.

Mules have a place in society? A purpose in nature maybe but the fact that they're typically infertile should be enough to think that maybe these "natural mistakes" just weren't meant to be.

I stand by my comment on evolution and how corns and kings probably diverged from one common species millions of years ago and this allows them to cross species breed.

I'll call a truce if you do, lets move on, I had my fun...

I can't believe you're getting so upset abouth this,

I'm not upset... I think you're reading more into text than is there. I wouldn't mind hearing supporting evidence for arguments on your view of the issue, but I can understand if you don't wish to provide them. However, I do agree that we should just agree to disagree, as our time and energy would be spent far more productively elsewhere than in debating this issue. Fair enough?

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

truce

>>"Nature invented rape. Nature invented murder. Nature invented patricide and cannibalism. Nature invented infidelity. And hey... nature invented humans. "
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>>-Ideas like "rape", "murder", "cannibalism" are nothing more than north american societal forms of deviant behavior based on a moral system of a specific group of people. Nature did not invent these things, we just named the behaviors and tagged them as bad. They all serve a purpose and have a place- so I guess we agree?

Rape - ever heard of the pursuit flight in mallards? Mallards will rape in unwilling female in their area that they can. Ever seen box turtles breed? The females always seem unwilling to me. Frequently, a male can't breed a female until he corners.

Murder - I'll admit that "murder" has connotations that are human-oriented, but I have seen animals kill other members of their species for reasons other than food. Look to the dominance fights in canines for the perfect example.

Cannibalism - Man, you've never looked in the stomach of a wild alligator if you thing this doesn't occur in the wild...lol. I've also caught kingsnakes eating other kingsnakes in the wild in SW Louisiana.

Man may have given these terms names and "bad" connotations, but we did NOT invent the actions that the words describe.

KJ

"If you put away your anger for a minute while watching bowling for columbine and get pasted the "anti-gun" message, you will see that all Mike Moore was trying to do was make that exact point, we can't control the idiots, so we have to control their access to things that can kill us."

Not to sound like a hippy but lets all put "away" our anger and look at this hybrid discussion objectivly. Saying that, let me address my other point to the quote above.

You need to re watch that movie, its not about "anti guns" or about controling "the idots" (a fassicist idea expecaly from a liberal) is about the "american phycology" we live in a us aginst them mind set of a country. this is to all of you EX: My way is the ONLY way type of mind set... Look objectively at this entire argument!!
Every one here needs to slow down and think about what they are saying.. I'm not saying that "we all need to get along" but that we all need to respect each others views and not "shoot them down" with words or guns.. I think that it's wonderful that you dissagee with hybrids thats fine.. I like them.. We have a differnt opions that is GOOD! When you can calm down and when we can TALK about these differnces may be just maybe we can come to a compermise (ALL Of US!!) until then I'm not saying any more!

n/p

is where they should be asking that type of question. Just my opinion

np

Bitter Sweet....
I think that its funny that these blowhards who think they are some kind of authority, feel compelled to come to a hybrid discussion & confront people who like hybrids & point out their negative views.
These people are starving for some kind of controll in their lives. It's kind of like some bible thumper going to an Ozzy concert & standing on a soap box shouting your all evil!!!
I think its just as funny as the rocker at the Ozzy concert would think about the bible thumper.

ATTENTION BLOWHARDS STAY ON YOUR SIDE OF THE FENCE. DONT FORGET TO GIVE HYBRIDS MORE ATTENTION.
ANY ATTENTION IS STILL ATTENTION.

.....corns,kings,milks,pituophis,ratsnakes,......alot of stuff.......

try it....it doesn't work as easy as you think.........

I could never get them to cross.........they prefer their own kind.....

they will mix.,........they will even eat each other (kings)....(never had that happen either).......

.......stick with corn x corn........

JY

i'm just curious what they can be crossed with to create different morphs. i just got a baby snow corn...beautiful. i don't plan on breeding them though. i've got my hands full with my copperheads.

oh, and the reply that i made earlier to the guy who answered with a heliphino, i apologize for being rude. seems like there's enough of rude people on here, so i don't need to be another number in the mix. so there and thanks for all the answers to those who were nice enough to do so...maybe in the future i'll breed some crazy venomous corns....it's a joke.

Seriously with all the fantastic color morphs this species is capable of producing why even try to cross them.Corns are just a perfect little snake for anyone wanting to raise one...Paul.

Mike,

good question, but wrong forum. Most true breeders do not cross breed. The escape in the eco system is a small issue. It is mainly because snakes especially hybrids are mainly sold as pets. Breeders only want true genetic snakes. These snakes sold as pets can change hands many times in a snakes life. This changing of hand leads to the loss of the hybrid. Sooner or later some person sells the snake as a true corn, king, milk. This can really mess up a project someone is working on for years. I have projects that have taken me 10 years. If I had bought a corn to use in my project and got a hybrid it could have set the project back 2-4 years. Many hybrids look just like corns, kings and milks and it might take 2 generations for the genes to surface, but sooner or later they will.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against hybrid, infact a do alittle of this myself, but I sell very few. I mainly use the animals to show.

xtremeherps@yahoo.com

You can breed anything you want if your good.
You need to understand the way patterns are layered on certain species. Certain colors will always be washed out or gone all together depending on the layers.
Breeding hybrids without a plan is like tossing paint on the wall. Whining about Hybrids is like keeping paint in the can.

This discussion was moved from the corn snake forum where it had originally been post.

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