Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a situation that I believe is going to be central to the debate of exotic animal ownership, specifically frogs, and more generally all exotics. This issue involves a website called Save The Frogs and its owner, Dr. Kerry Kriger.

Here's what Dr. Kriger had to say about frogs and the pet trade in a recent paper of his, Chytridiomycosis, Amphibian Extinctions, and Lessons for the Prevention of Future Panzootics:

"Preventing disease spread into naive amphibian populations can only be accomplished by removing the source of the problem: the translocation of infected amphibians. Unlike zoos and laboratories, whose conservation services render the translocation of amphibians an occasional necessity, the amphibian pet and bait trades are for the large part disposable, that is, they are unnecessary, serving little benefit to society. Their nearly complete dismantling would benefit amphibian populations, not only by eliminating a primary source of disease transfer, but also by simultaneously reducing the over-harvesting of wild amphibian populations, which is largely unregulated in many parts of the world (Li and Wilcove, 2005; Schlaepfer et al., 2005). At a minimum, these trades should be restricted to local sales of captive-bred individuals."

In a rebuttal to this approach, Trenton W. J. Garner, Ian Stephen, Emma Wombwell, and Matthew C. Fisher, in a paper entitled, The Amphibian Trade: Bans or Best Practice?, state:

"As well, synergies amongst components of the amphibian trade may actually benefit this global conservation effort. Many species in the pet trade are closely related both phylogenetically and ecologically to important target conservation species. These species can be used to train staff at regional centers so that when target species are brought into captivity the likelihood of successful ex situ programs will improve. In cases where target species are in the pet trade, they may prove to be the best or only source of breeding stock. This is no small beer; most zoos have far better developed reptile husbandry and very few institutions boast of breeders and keepers who are specialized in amphibian care, health, and reproduction. Some zoos are already using amphibians purchased from the private sector to develop the skills necessary to implement the Amphibian Ark plans. From a conservation perspective, this is not the time to alienate the pet trade sector, which may be the most useful repository of captive breeding and husbandry know-how and arguably has the greatest success rate at breeding rare, difficult to keep, and difficult to breed species.

Given that the amphibian trade is already enormous in the United States, Asia, and Europe (Schlaepfer et al., 2005; Tyler et al., 2007) and the pet trade is rapidly emerging in Asia (Rowley et al., 2007), blanket bans and radical restrictions are going to be impossible to implement. Imposing trade restrictions will require substantial time and effort with no guarantee of success and may result in a substantial increase in unregulated trade. The better and more rapid option is to regulate trade for the control of the spread of infectious disease. Strategies for this are in place in most countries and should easily be modified for amphibians. For example, on Dominica, agricultural trade has already been modified to reduce the risk of transporting amphibians passively around the Lesser Antilles. Toward this, the Aquatic Animal Health Code of the World Organization for Animal Health (WOAH, or the OIE) has been amended this year to include both Bd and ranavirus and now includes recommendations for certifying disease status of countries and amphibian products. By using the WOAH guidelines, we believe that the risk of disease transport will be, to a great extent, eliminated. For certain cases (e.g., Madagascar), more stringent restrictions may be put in place. Along with trade regulations, we need to educate stakeholders in the amphibian trade about the risk of pathogens to wild populations and to their livelihoods. Many amphibian traders, notably those in the pet trade, currently feel alienated from zoos and the scientific community but would welcome the opportunity to increase their knowledge of infectious diseases and implement better practices. Our research has shown pet traders in the United Kingdom feel that there is a lack of available information regarding the risk of amphibian infectious disease; however, the majority of pet shop owners surveyed feel import regulations are not stringent enough!"

What does everyone here think about these two opposing points of view?

I think it's pretty obvious that everyone here (with the exception of Steph)will strongly support the latter approach
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Well, I know if I had decided to bring back a couple of dozen of the Golden Toads when I saw them there likely would be thousands today selling for $5 each and they could have been restocked and if not certainly not extinct...thanks...I thought about doing it and in hindsight should have done so.. After all most Australian herps today are cheaper here than in Australia [Bearded Dragons for instance]. That was because of people like me and there were dozens of us doing it and we didn't do it for money. We did it because we wanted the herps and we wanted adventure...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom,

But you and many others were not part of their crowd man...In fact you, and many others, were on their "notch list"...

Heck, they even went so far as to adopt CITES so they could add folks to their "notch list" and created entirely new branches of government to do nothing but adding to their "notch list" to do what? End the international pet trade...The question is, were they successful? Hardly, just as with liquor...There's still "bootlegging" worldwide because of the corruption of the very international governmental agencies that are supposedly enforcing the CITES! The NGO's (e.g. WWF) write reports all the time about the problem...And of course, the solution is more regulation...A never ending cycle of stupidity...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Kind of hard to take anyone, especially a scientist/researcher, seriously when he makes editorial and arrogant comments like "they [the pet and bait trade] are unnecessary, serving little benefit to society."

Basically his opinion on "preventative measures" is nothing more than wishful, "feel good" thinking. I saw no discussion or comments on how broad bans will be enforced, or even if it's possible to enforce the bans.

And why no discussion on
- other possible "drivers for the intercontinental spread of chytridiomycosis?"
- private breeders HELPING species from going extinct in the wild and maintaining a viable population of animals that do go extinct in the wild?

The second paper was much more reasonable and realistic.

I was not too surprised when this guy moved here and began spreading word about his not for profit agenda. I have not met him and have not been interested in his opinion. I cannot say anything in rebuttal because you guys have done such a good job. Sometimes its difficult living on the left coast. I would add though that a little bleach and water on shipping containers and good husbandry upon arrival would curtail any potential spread of pathogens. Also, Argentine horn frogs, in trouble in the wild, are thriving in captivity.

"serving little benefit to society" This is indeed a scary sentence as almost any extracurricular activity could be deemed of "little benefit" to society.

Considering that the last figure I saw was that the reptile industry was a 2 billion dollar a year industry (unsure if that figure is still accurate in either direction.) I would say our trade is a bit more signifigant in value than his non profit organization that contributes NOTHING to the nation's tax base and might even possibly siphon off some of our tax dollars that could go to more useful projects building roads or education or keeping violent repeat offenders behind bars.

>>"serving little benefit to society" This is indeed a scary sentence as almost any extracurricular activity could be deemed of "little benefit" to society.

Aaron,

Yep, scary stuff. Admittedly I don't know exactly how the formal "peer review" process works, but if statements like this make it through the process, then the process is broken. I'm just a lowly engineer who works in the private sector, but if something like that "little benefit to society" comment were written in an initial draft of a design document or white paper, it would get laughed at and removed during step 1 the quality process. And the author would probably get reprimanded.

Thanks,
Ed

Ed,

I agree man…The process is broken in that they seem to have gone away from the scientific method and have included the “social good” (agenda) into the process. A fact is a fact and a result is a result…Whether the outcome is desired or not. Also, the age old scientific method almost always, is a very slow process (often taking years and/or decades and VERY seldom as a CONSENSUS) and it is this time “delay” that is problematic if you are working under the “stress” of an agenda rather than science.

Imagine using a new material as a load bearing, structural member for “green construction” – for whatever “green” reason for the ECO social PR initiative – that under testing you knew would fail for one reason or another (e.g. liquefy under seismic stress or chemical reaction with other materials)…The scientific method would prevent this new material from being used in construction but under the new “peer reviewed process” of a “closed set of peers” – often within the same group of “like-minded scientists”, funded by the same funding sources – the material is used because it is deemed good for humanity and Gaia Earth…In this case, the needs of the few supersede the needs of the many.

Sound strange? Have you read the East Anglia emails? Also, a read of the “peer reviewed” Python report (Kathy’s post above) indicates that it’s just another bit of recycling of the same old “peer reviewed reports” by the same “peers” funded by the same funding sources…And after reading their report, it is clear that they are sticking to their original conclusions (invasive species think) despite the evidence. Also, I notice little information about the SREL test (majority in regard to Florida’s Everglades)…

OK, I understand that they ARE here to stay and over time, may develop the necessary survival strategy to survive, propagate and migrate to exploit new ranges (as does most every other animal in-situ). Will this be a problem for humans? In the minds of some, it will be a major CATASTROPHY but, does man live in their world in other regions of the earth? The answer is most obvious. YES, man and predator do coexist together in their native countries with some collateral damage. After all, the native humans do conduct animal husbandry to the point of commerce (e.g. goats, cattle, poultry, etc) to the point where the humans can feed themselves. Also, haven’t we had to coexist with predators here in North America? Didn’t we manage to produce food for ourselves while “managing” the predators?

The bottom line is that things have been stood on their head regarding what is pure science (scientific method) and what is “social” science (like-minded, peer reviewed agenda science) and this is not good…Just my 10-cents worth…

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It's funny, but your "hypothetical" case above mirrors a variety of real-world examples on the opposite side of the political coin in the Bush administration. In these cases, scientific results which conflicted with the administration's idealogical "take" on issues-from Global Warming to Endangered species to forest use policy to Clean air and water to Endangered species to (as we are now learning to our sorrow) regulation of the oil and gas industry-were supressed or in some cases even changed or expunged.

Your complaints about the "green agenda" beg the question of whether or not there are real benefits (not just to "gaia" but to humanity itself) of switching to more efficient, cleaner forms of energy and lifestyle, and reducing and eventually eliminating our dangerous dependence on foreign oil. I think these benefits are both real and self-evident.

Of course maybe everyone is not as angry as I am that every fillup puts money in the hands of terrorists who wish to kill me and my family?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

But overpopulation is the real culprit, or at least a much bigger one. If the switch to green energy is made without dealing with overpopulation then eventually we will just have more people using less energy per person and the problem will repeat itself. What we need to do, simulataniously to developing green energy, is to start looking at ways to combat overpopulation. This means switching from a growth based economy to a sustainability based economy.

But the fight to control overpopulation, and hopefully actually reduce population, will be a knock-down drag out! Hard to believe we'll ever get the world to agree-but we have to try.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Aaron

>>…combat overpopulation…

Well, they’ve been working on this very item since Roe versus Wade…On June 29, 1993, President Bill Clinton signed Executive Order 12852 which authorized the creation of the President’s Council on Sustainable Development (PCSD)…One of the very “agendas” of the PCSD is POPULATION CONTROL.

I suggest that you read the information in the links below as it has been in the works since the 1970’s! What’s interesting here is that it was the Rockefeller Commission that was tasked with this “agenda” by President Nixon…Who signed an agreement with President Leonid Brezhnev agreeing to create “biosphere reserves” in their respective countries…It is this concept of SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT…In 1973, the Endangered Species Act (ESA) was passed…The storyline (stated purpose) then – and still is today – it is that mankind is causing the extinction of the animals…However, that was NOT it’s intent at all…From Section 3 [16 USC 1532] of the ESA, there is this definition…

“(2) The term ‘‘commercial activity’’ means all activities of industry and trade, including, but not limited to, the buying or selling of commodities and activities conducted for the purpose of facilitating such buying and selling: Provided, however, That it does not include exhibitions of commodities by museums or similar cultural or historical organizations.”

In other words, one of the ACTUAL intents of the ESA is the regulation of commodities and COMMERCE. By definition, a commodity is an agricultural (or mining) product traded on a market…What do we do as “amateur” herpers? In addition to this forum, what else occurs here at Kingsnake? What is the intent of every "herp" law from the federal government and the states? I believe it's to END the COMMERCE of herping under the guise (storyline) of "invasive species"...Believe what you want man.

There are many other ACTUAL reasons for the ESA…This is just one of them.

Another thing, once the government – as clearly stated in the PCSD – begins regulating the population, well, history is a teacher here…China allows just how many children per family and what happens when there are more than what is allowed? Under the National German Socialist Workers Party (NDSAP=NAZI), they implemented state programs of birth called Lebensborn - can you say "It Takes a Village" - and death (euthanasia)…For the death side of the equation, they started with the folks in asylums and the storyline (for justification by the German people who allowed the laws to be passed) in Germany at the time was that it was a “quality of life” issue…Does this sound familiar?

One final thing here is, have you researched the “issues” that are funded by the large philanthropic organizations (e.g. Rockefeller Brothers, Tides, etc)? They donate millions (to tax-exempt, non-profit organizations) for women’s health care issues all around the world…Any idea just what are those women’s health care issues actually are?

So all in all, the government and its affiliates and partner organizations have been working diligently, behind the scenes for decades to fund and implement both population control and sustainable development…So what is a sustainable developed economy? Whether you agree with it or not, a fact is a fact and from the dictionary, this is a centrally planned economy which is the public control of the private means of production, distribution and exchange…This is the definition of socialism. So what you are advocating is the implementation of a socialist economy here in the United States. Again, history provides us with the facts…

From pages 27-28 of John T. Flynn’s book, The Road Ahead, America’s Creeping Revolution (1949), the following excerpts are most relevant to describe what’s happening (the proposed political solution).

“In short, the government takes over the general planning and direction of all industry. And in the exercise of this authority it decides which industries ought to be nationalized and operated directly by the State and which should be left in the hands of private owners to carry on under State planning and supervision. As part of this latter function the State, by taxation, takes the greater part of whatever profits are possible in such a system. This is the system now in use in Great Britain. Here is how it works.

The government has nationalized eight functions:

1. The Bank of England.
2. Cables and wireless-the overseas communications system.
3. Civil aviation.
4. Transport, which includes the railways, road transport (buses and cargo transport) and inland waterways.
5. Coal mines.
6. Electricity.
7. Gas industry.
8. Medical services.”

In a later paragraph, Mr. Flynn continues with:

“The remainder of the economic structure, including factories, farms, housing, stores, shipping is being operated by private owners under government controls, which may be compared to those controls that were in force during the war both here and in England with their priorities, quotas, subsidies, price-fixing, rationing, inspections and penalties-all enforced by an army of bureaucrats-save that they are more onerous in England under socialism now than they were during the war.”

Does any of this sound even remotely familiar to you?

Later,
Jim

http://clinton2.nara.gov/PCSD/Charter/
http://clinton2.nara.gov/PCSD/Publications/TF_Reports/pop-chap-1.html

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CSRAJim

Jim you have certainly given me alot to think about and I can refute none of it. I really appreciate your posts and the insights you offer.

So I guess my biggest question is how can we have a sustainability based economy without signing all our destinies away to an oppressive central government and/or a permanent class of wealthy aristocrats? That's a rehtorical question but if you have any insights feel free to share. But you know I am so busy worrying about whether I will be able to keep my little collection of kingsnakes I hardly have time to do anything more than muse about these great problems. That's the truth too. I don't mean it in a bad way either and sometimes I think that's they way "they" want it.

Aaron,

First off, thanks and I understand man…I’m in the same boat but you’re going to have to do some research to understand this stuff. Briefly and rhetorically speaking, here are a few ideas. We can have a sustainable economy and a growth economy at the same time IMHO if we;

1. Eliminate the profit motive from the government’s agenda. The primary way to accomplish is to eliminate the “welfare state”. This is the primary source of government growth (e.g. Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, etc) – and thus profit motive. Obviously, this will be difficult for a “professional politician” to do but not a citizen invested in the country.

2. Eliminate foreign aid from the government’s agenda. Why are we sending our tax dollars out of the country to “assist” people around the world that really don’t like us because of who we are? If you do some research, you’ll find that 100’s of billions of tax dollars from the Federal government AND private philanthropy leave the country every year in the form of foreign aid (humanitarian)…Over the decades, this amounts to TRILLIONS of dollars! Imagine if that money was “invested” (as the professional politicians like to refer to it) back into America?

3. Eliminate subsidies to failed private enterprises (e.g. GM, Amtrac, Chrysler, etc) and other government “approved” private entities (e.g. paying farmers NOT to grow something).

4. Eliminate ALL GSE’s (Government Sponsored Enterprises) such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. If the government needs something, it should be by competitive contract with funds encumbered after Congressional vote (public scrutiny).

5. Eliminate ALL tax breaks to philanthropies. If the average citizen pays one tax rate for capital gains on an investment, so should the philanthropies pay the same rate. Do some research about this yourself…It’s best if you discover this from your own sources.

6. Eliminate ALL lobbying for 501(c)(3) non-profit, tax-exempt organizations. If they are educational, then they should educate and not lobby to institute agenda policy!

7. Eliminate ALL “partnerships” and “affiliations” between 501(c)(3) organizations and their 501(c)(4) PAC’s (Political Action Committees) and “action funds”. An example of this is the Defenders of Wildlife…The president and CEO of the c3 is also the president of the c4. By IRS code, a c3 can do some lobbying (not clearly defined for a reason) and the c4 can do a LOT of lobbying…This is a conflict of interest and there exists the potential of “funneling” money from one side of the tax status (c3 is tax-exempt and the c4 is not). Corporations are more likely to contribute to the tax deductible side of a lobbying issue as opposed to one that isn’t. Also, prohibit ALL c3 employees from ALL lobbying activities. If you research the DOW, you’ll find that a lot of their employees are used in lobbying efforts! Go to the US Senate’s website and look around…I’m not trying to make this hard, I just want you to find this stuff for yourself…There’s a particular agency within the senate that tracks all lobbying of congress. Also, check out the Federal Election Committee’s website, you’ll find some interesting information there. In particular, when you search under “committees”, type MOVEON.org and read what comes up.

8. Eliminate ALL “hedge” (leverage) investments. In other words, if you buy 1,000 shares of stock, then you should have to buy the shares outright. You should not able to “buy” (control) 1,000 shares of stock with a 10% investment on the margin. As it happens now, using leverage principle, a person can “control” 10 times more stock than they should…The key with this is that if you “control” enough stock, you can influence corporate policy…

Basically, big-[fill in the blank] is based on volume and cheap labor…In other words, if you sell 10,000 widgets at 0.10 cents per day, you make so much money. The two primary variables in the profit margin are the resources to produce the widgets and the labor necessary to make the widgets. The greatest profits come from having both of them available very cheap. This is the rationale for foreign imports of raw materials because of the cheap labor. Now, if you have family oriented businesses, tailored to the local markets, the profit goes directly to the family and not to a bunch of impersonal stockholders with no personal “skin” in the game…Other than pure profit.
Sorry for the short post…

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

Of course maybe everyone is not as angry as I am that every fillup puts money in the hands of terrorists who wish to kill me and my family?

Have they passed some law in texas I don't know about that is stopping you from buying a Tesla? Amish people seem to have some petroleum free modes of transportation as well, being that you lived in central New York you should know that already. If it makes you that angry do something about it.

Yep, the law of economics-have you seen how much a Tesla costs?

Actually I calculate I can more efficiently use resources by putting another 90,000 miles or so on my present vehicle. But at that point, you can be sure I'll purchase the most efficient choice available in, say, the 2014 model year-hopefully a plug-in electric like the Nissan Leaf, or a natural-gas vehicle.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

$57,000 is a bit pricey but certainly comparable to an suv or a pricey sportscar. Before I lived in N.Y. I grew up in south tx. (in an oil patch.) my dad managed a propane company for many years and I rode around in vehicles that ran on gasoline or propane from the late 70's onward. The conversion kits are not all that expensive. I seem to recall that propane is a bit more efficient than natural gas also. If you are interested in the route you should look into it as texas is ground zero for running cars and trucks on lp gas.

That's an intriguing idea-I'll look into it.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad,

I’m in 50% agreement with you…Left wing, right wing, conservative, liberal, these are the terms that is used for the public discussion of this stuff…Some of it we’re permitted to know and some of it must be sought out…You just have to do the work. Or, you can remain a mind numbed robot in tune with knee jerk reactions depending on the source of the “storyline” from whatever media outlet you get your news…

What I agree with about is the Laissez-faire Capitalism is ONE of the sources of the problem that we often discuss here…It’s NOT the ONLY source of the problem.

>>…hypothetical…

Brad, what I posted is not “hypothetical”. It is real and has been happening for decades…You either choose to ignore it or just don’t know about it. It doesn’t mean it isn’t happening…Your choice man as for the time being, we’re still relatively free…

>> …on the opposite side of the political coin…

Brad, they are NOT opposite sides of the political coin…THEY ARE TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN! It’s the conflict (dialectic) that the political parties and their supporters (their REAL constituents) PROFIT. For decades, they have allowed the PURPOSEFUL discussion as media and special interest storylines for public consumption to stir up the masses on all sides of the political spectrum for votes, donations and campaign contributions from which THEY ALL PROFIT and for which all of us other non-insider elitists (average American citizen) exist for the sole purpose of a vote on election day, paying our taxes, fees. Licenses, etc and to purchase (consumer) the products that are produced (by big business) and regulated (by the government)…

>>… Bush administration…

Interesting that you should mention this because the architect of the “debt-for-nature swaps” (1984) is a man named Dr. Thomas Lovejoy. He is also credited in some circles as coining the phrase “biodiversity”. You see Brad, Dr. Lovejoy was engineering the “debt-for-nature swaps” during the time he was working on scientific and environmental councils and committees during the Reagan, Bush and CLINTON administrations. Of note here is that where else has Dr. Lovejoy worked? Here’s one of his numerous biographies out-there in cyber space…

http://ncseonline.org/2008conference/cms.cfm?id=1719

“Thomas E. Lovejoy has been President of The Heinz Center since May 2002. Before coming to The Heinz Center, he was the World Bank’s Chief Biodiversity Advisor and Lead Specialist for Environment for Latin America and the Caribbean and Senior Advisor to the President of the United Nations Foundation. Dr. Lovejoy has been Assistant Secretary and Counselor to the Secretary at the Smithsonian Institution, Science Advisor to the Secretary of the Interior, and Executive Vice President of the World Wildlife Fund–U.S. He conceived the idea for the Minimum Critical Size of Ecosystems project originated the concept of debt-for-nature swaps, and is the founder of the public television series Nature. In 2001 he was awarded the prestigious Tyler Prize for Environmental Achievement. Dr. Lovejoy served on science and environmental councils or committees under the Reagan, Bush, and Clinton administrations. He received his B. S. and Ph.D. (biology) degrees from Yale University.”

He’s worked at the World Bank (one of the MAJOR players in the debt-for-nature swaps-and still is) in Latin America and the Caribbean. He was a Science Advisor to the Secretary of the Interior (the invasive species agenda is regulated under which Department of the Federal government). He’s worked for the WWF (international NGO and another player in the debt-for-nature swap scheme). He’s the founder of the Nature channel (where do those giant snakes TV infomercials appear). He’s been a member of numerous councils and/or committees during the Reagan, Bush and Clinton administrations (wow, he sounds VERY bipartisan to me)…Is any of this beginning to sink in? I hope so…

>>…green agenda…

As I stated above, and if you care to do some research (on your own), they are doing this as one COMBINED agenda…Meaning this is an agenda of both parties (democrat and republican). In other words Brad, it’s the same agenda with the same objective under a different party approved PR message for public consumption to appeal to their voting masses…Their supporting constituencies are involved in the process behind the scenes and we get the approved “language” of what they’re talking about…

>>…switching to more efficient, cleaner forms of energy and lifestyle, and reducing and eventually eliminating our dangerous dependence on foreign oil…

Brad, I agree with you (as we’ve discussed before)…Cleaner energy and independence from foreign oil is a VERY good thing. If I had my druthers, I’d abandon the Middle East all together and let them fight it out and if there was another lunatic attack here in the US, I’d determine the nationality of the individuals and carpet bomb their country back to the stone age in response (without permission from the UN)…But that is NOT reality and neither is the “green energy initiative” because right now (current technology) is NOT economically feasible to provide a reliable energy source for even a city of 10,000 citizens (reliable means constant electrical power) – and this is a fact Brad. In other words Brad, it’s utopian speak at this point in time and in the mean time, it’s a transfer of wealth from your pocket and mine to somebody else under the guise of being green…It’s green alright, it’s called MONEY in the speculator’s (including the “green ones”) pocket via their portfolio management schemes of energy (wind, hydro, solar, etc), timber, water, etc, etc, etc!

>>Of course maybe everyone is not as angry as I am that every fill-up puts money in the hands of terrorists who wish to kill me and my family?

Now Brad, that’s very naive of you…A friend of mine and fellow Marine died in 1983 in Beirut during that Islamic lunatic attack of the barracks there (Allah Akbar). We went through Parris Island together…And there was that little thing called Desert Storm Brad, angry? Well it’s nice to know that we share the same anger…

Later,
Jim.

PS: I hope you read the bio’s of the rest of those folks listed in that link…It’s a who’s who of “green initiatives” throughout the world…

-----
CSRAJim

If we grant the truth of what you're saying, Jim, then I wonder what you're advocating? If both parties, both ends of the political spectrum, Big industry and Big environmentalism, are ALL in cahoots-then what are we to do?

As you say, we're in partial agreement here (though I strongly disagree with your assessment of the economics of green energy, especially given that most economic calculations fail to factor in the true cost of fossil fuels-including health, environment,and in particular the loss of life and treasure from our various mideast and far east "adventures". In fact we're probably putting too much emphasis on what are relatively minor points compared to the big problem vis-a-vis our hobby.

I think the enemy is clear there-and our purpose as well.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad,

Well, I can't tell you what to do nor can I advocate what I want you do to do...

I will say briefly that we should;

Return to family oriented businesses (non-Walmart);

End big-business and big-non-profit monopolies (for lack of a better term) and their favorable tax code status;

Return to small limited government based on the tenets of the Constitution…

That’s not meant to be simplistic but before there was Standard Oil (Rockefeller), there were many small family run companies…The same CAN exist for “green energy” as well but when Big-Investment (hedge fund speculators) is involved, we are just pawns and will remain so.

In other words, we, the people should be the masters of our own destiny and not pawns in schemes for profit by others as a result of our own work, labor, intelligence, etc…I have no problem with the government regulating commerce (a sovereign nation should do this) but, it should not be in partnership with special interests to profit from the regulation. Oversight is for the common good of all is a good thing and NOT for the interests of a special group of elitists…Governmental oversight for profit is not good and leads to graft and corruption.

Stockholders, non-profits and government are manipulating our economy and as a result our country and very way of life for the average citizen in that vast flyover country between the New York-Washington DC corridor and Los Angeles…On the other side of the same coin, investment managers are gaining control of our natural resources and it ain’t for “green” purposes that their PR says it is…It’s for profit. I suggest you learn about what a TIMO is…

I advise you to do some additional research about this “stuff”…It will be of benefit.

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

I don't really disagree with anything in your post. Not a chance in H E double hockey sticks of it happening (short of secession), but I'd personally love to see it.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad,

It ain't gonna be easy that's for sure...But, knowledge is a start. What I heard from our fellow citizens at a Town Hall meeting hosted by my congressman was most encouraging...

The first thing to do is to vote out of office almost every single member of congress...After 2-3 terms, they become "professional politicians"...Which if history repeats itself here, will be what happened to the Roman Republic. A Caesar dictatorship that was selected by the graft and corruption of the Senate...

What most folks don't know (and I didn't know it either until I read about it in an old history book) is that early on in Rome's history, when the people didn't like what the Senate was doing, they simply refused to work...It shut down the economy and the Senate listened...It worked for a century or two...Until the Senate figured out a way to circumvent the will of the tax paying citizens of Rome: they created the "welfare state" that eventually resulted in more people beholden to the Senate...And we know from history how that turned out.

In fact, history is repeating itself...Greece. For that matter, why does the economy of a country like Greece affect the "global economy" anyway?

You'll have to study about what the "New World Order" actually is and that's a long post...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

"I have no problem with the government regulating commerce (a sovereign nation should do this) but, it should not be in partnership with special interests to profit from the regulation."

You have hit the nail on the head and I couldn't agree with you more.

Aaron,

Thanks...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

As big as it is, WalMart IS a family owned business. The Waltons, I believe. And NOT the John-Boy one.

Jim, I have really injoyed reading your post here. It has been very educationl for a change. I dont know who you are or what you do for a living but I hope to meat you some day.(maybe Daytona). I often feel like a real stranger on this forum,and have wanted to say all the things you have said. I'm 62 been working sence I was 11 yrs.old. I have been upset with the "Post America" direction. Do you think anyone in the last 25 yrs have read Atlas Shrugged or something like it or even the current work of Thomas Sowell. Now that the Government is coming after people like me/us that have "dedacated our life and soul to" not to mention blood sweet and tears,I feel quite helpless but at the same time ready willing and able to "fight to the end" to anyone that gets to close to taking it away. It simply wont happen while I'm alive. Thanks for posting your wisdom and I hope people take your advise and start thinking for themself's. Thanks for your service to the USA. Vic Morgan

I've got to agree with you. Jim has done the work for sure. There are many good minds and voices here. I'm very grateful for all that contribute.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John,

You too man...I ain't the only one.

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

Vic,

I’m just an average lower middle citizen of the vast fly over country of the US…I served my country for over 20 years in the reserves who appreciates the meaning of an oath! I had a grandfather that was my surrogate father and left me a wonderful library of books…He earned an MBA from one of those Ivy League schools back in 1923…When I went off to college (BS-Environmental Science & Public Health Field Practice), he told me a couple of things…

College professors teach you what OTHER great men have done…

Colleges and universities exist to keep professors off of welfare.

I guess he wasn’t very impressed with his professors. He served the US during the Korean War as a civilian at KMAG HQ and he had an extreme dislike for communists! He saw their utopian vision first hand…After Inchon was liberated, he saw 100’s of non-living Korean civilians, with their hands bound behind their backs! History repeated itself in Vietnam (VC in the south) and Cambodia (Pol Pot)…Sadly, most kids today have no idea of what communism really is and once implemented, what will really happen – unless of course you’re one of the “privileged elite”.

The economic history of the world is one of socialism, public control of the private means of production, distribution and exchange…Pick a country or civilization, pick a time in history, and you’ll see socialism virtually EVERYWHERE! After all, who owned the lands? It was the monarch in ancient times and later, social democracies and/or dictators owned or controlled virtually everything…Sad but true.

The Endangered Species Act (ESA) is nothing more than the dialectic of a false premise to prevent the extinction of species by protecting critical habitat (ecosystems). In reality, it is nothing more than a regulation of the commerce of commodities (agricultural product traded on a market), funding source (tax payer funded grants) to “other interested parties” (NGO’s) and an unconstitutional “mandate” for the confiscation of private property (taking)…After all, the success rate of the ESA of ALL endangered and threatened species is 1-3% (depending on the source)…So for over 37 years, and 100’s of millions of tax dollars – some buried in the budget of virtually every single Federal agency and thus, not reflected in the Interior’s (USFWS) appropriation – the result of the ESA is FAILURE!

However, using the dialectic, the PR storyline continues with the need for even more money but, the money is not going to endangered or threatened species…It’s being used for other purposes.

Later,
Jim.

PS: Thanks man…By the way, the wisdom came from my grandfather.

-----
CSRAJim

Thanks, I always liked talking to my grandfather,IT WAS ANOTHER WORLD. His lifetime went from being a orphened German immigrant of 12 yrs.old. Candles to electric light, the wright bros. to humans on the moon.He lived the book FUTURE SHOCK. Yep, he had some things to say and of cource they were the Fathers of "The great generation". My Father was a Anzio bch surviver. Here's another guy you would like. I'm sure he could fix the oil leak if asked, www.spacestory.com Story Musgrave. I got to talk to him once. See ya out there somewhere. Vic Morgan, Tortoise farmer

Vic,

Yep…They are becoming a lost generation as what they managed to accomplish is being “redefined”. It was these MEN and WOMEN that could be the last of the generations of America that Admiral Yamamoto was talking about after the news of Tora, Tora, Tora…I feel that all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.

From Grandfather’s experience (and your father), he knew of the “tigers” in the jungle of the world…If you are not prepared to hunt the “tigers” when you HAVE to, well, the law of the jungle is you’re either predator or prey. From the beginning with the creation of the utopian vision of the League of Nations…Followed later by the UN Charter, we are told that the international community can “resolve” differences between nations by treaty and diplomacy. My grandfather would say “horsefeathers”…That is the dialectic denial of the nature of man in that no matter what piece of paper is agreed to by any nation(s), all nations are run by people and thus, subject to mankind’s weaknesses of sloth, greed, envy, etc. Throughout history, wars have been fought over such things…And a signature on pieces of paper has solved this since the UN charter? Can you say Korea, Vietnam, Congo, Nicaragua, Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Palestine, Israel, Somalia, etc? Yeah right. Freedom isn’t free…Never has been and to take the view of diplomacy and treaty ALONE sets you up to be prey.

Speaking of the laws of the jungle (nature), what are some of the ways Mother Nature keeps a population in check? We know them as competition, predation, famine, disease, etc…Of note here is that utopian man has invented new methods of population control called warfare (competition), euthanasia and abortion…ALL LEGAL WORDS ON PAPER. Eisenhower warned us to beware of the government-industrial-media complex…Wars are very PROFITABLE for banks, investors, business, media, etc and it helps with the world's population control and as a by-product, institutes famine and disease…So it turns out that mankind is an animal after all...Even if some utopians have a different view.

Oh yeah, lest I forget, warfare, famine, disease are very PROFITABLE for social justice and humanitarian NGO’s as well…So you see, warfare is a win-win situation for ALL of mankind…The world’s population is reduced and wealth is transferred…Perhaps this is one of the reasons for the dialectic of PR storyline of the UN’s Charter…It doesn’t end war or conflict but is says it does and the people of the world are told to believe this…Now that you understand that no piece of paper or utopian view of diplomacy or treaty solves warfare or conflict, the same can also be said for conservation, environmentalism, poverty, social justice, etc as words on paper (matter and materialism) cannot change the nature of the animal man…That can only come from two things…Man’s idealism (antithesis of Marx’s materialism) – based on true religious morality and values (regardless of the religion) – in good faith to do the right thing. Otherwise, other men and women will decide what the right thing is for us…

Later,
Jim.

PS: Mexicana “complex” farmer…

-----
CSRAJim

So,Mans reason for exsistance is to kill and redgament other men.*VM. God said Aberham,"kill me a son" Abe said "man you must be puttin me on" God said yea, Abe said Why. God said you can do what you want Abe but the next time you see me com'in you better run. Abe said OK man were do you want this kill'in done God said out on highway 61.*BD

Aside from the tax dollars it generates, herpetoculture also keeps captive resevoirs of animals that may go extinct in the wild. It also introduces people, especially children, to the wonders of reptiles, which are so often overlooked by society.
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but labelling herpetoculture as "little benefit to society" is either ignorance or just plain prejudice.

Yes a child, or an adult for that matter, who has an intrest in keeping herps in captivity is likely, IMHO, to at some point gain an inrest in conserving wild herps. It's not that other things can't inspire conservation too, I think any contact with nature can do that. But keeping herps is definately one source of inspiration so I think it is better to manage wild herps than to ban access to them.

>>Yes a child, or an adult for that matter, who has an intrest in keeping herps in captivity is likely, IMHO, to at some point gain an inrest in conserving wild herps. It's not that other things can't inspire conservation too, I think any contact with nature can do that. But keeping herps is definately one source of inspiration so I think it is better to manage wild herps than to ban access to them.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Web,

Thanks for posting those two posts...

It’s interesting to read the typical arrogance of some of the non-profit, scientific academics…As if they are the only ones that know anything about animals, ecosystems, husbandry, etc.

He sounds like one of the disciples of the “politics of change” to redefine everything in their model of conservation and environment…

Which non-profit does he work for? Just curious…

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

Jim,

Here's a link to info on Save the Frogs

Web,

Again thanks…Wow! The organizations I’ve been researching are the large and middle sized NGO’s and I know that each year, there are more and more of them (it’s a HUGE underground economy that no one seems to talk about)…In short, there are literally 1,000’s of them!

This is great as they even reference a Defenders of Wildlife report, Broken Screens! I found that one about a year ago…I see it’s getting around within the NGO circles, no matter how small they are…Links below to some others that you should read…

Also, it’s nice to see “politicians for frogs” includes the governor of Virginia!

Other Defenders of Wildlife reports of interest…

http://www.[url ban]/resources/publications/programs_and_policy/habitat_conservation/federal_lands/on_the_line_report.pdf

http://www.[url ban]/resources/publications/programs_and_policy/habitat_conservation/federal_lands/arizona_stakeholder_recommendations.pdf

http://www.[url ban]/resources/publications/policy_and_legislation/critical_cross-border_wildlife_crossings_map.pdf

Later,
Jim.

PS: Here’s an example of an existing mitigation bank here in the US…Texas’ Largest Wetland Mitigation Bank Names Resources Environmental Solutions LLC Exclusive Sales Agent, Pineywoods Mitigation Bank Selects RES to Market Mitigation Credits, April 7, 2009, Tyler, TX
http://www.pineywoodsbank.com//RES-Press%20Release.pdf

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CSRAJim

Perhaps they could explain how Bufo periglens along with other species dissappeared early on before this wildlife trade happened. Could it actually have something to do with pesticides etc slamming the immune system of amphibians and perchance allowing things like chytrid to prevail. Hell the Kingsnake population here in Florida began to crash in the 70's. I think all these population crashes have several common denominators albeit not nescessarily the same one but the Pet Industry is always used as a whipping boy for all that happens because until now we were easy to blame...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom,

It's because conservation of the animals is not the agenda...If that was the actual purpose, your idea of allowing herpers to breed an animal in captivity, donating the offspring to the "non-profit" NGO's and within a given period of time, they aren't threatened or endangered...You already know where that idea ended up...

The answer lies in the Endangered Species Act (ESA) itself...For example, under the definitions, Sec 3 [16 USC 1532], the purpose of this act is "to use and the use of all methods and procedures which are necessary to bring any endangered species or threatened species to the point at which the measures provided pursuant to this Act are not limited to, all activities associated with scientific resources management such as research, census, law enforcement, habitat acquisition and maintenance, propagation, live trapping, and transplantation, and, in the extraordinary case where population pressures within a given ecosystem cannot be otherwise relieved, may include regulated taking."

Sounds good but in reality, after almost four decades and 100's of millions of tax dollars, they've succeeded in their stated objective for 1-3% of all animals listed...You'd think that "all methods" would include all methods (e.g. your idea) but it doesn't...

In fact one of the real agenda items of the ESA is the regulation of commerce as can be found again in Sec 3 [16 USC 1532]...For the purposes of this act is found in the definitions. Specifically, "The term ‘‘commercial activity’’ means all activities of industry and trade, including, but not limited to, the buying or selling of commodities and activities conducted for the purpose of facilitating such buying and selling: Provided, however, That it does not include exhibitions of commodities by museums or similar cultural or historical organizations."

Notice the inclusion of "commodity" which by definition is ”An economic good; a product of agriculture or mining or a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance factors (as brand name) other than price and one that is subject to ready exchange or exploitation within a market.”

Sounds like regulating the trade of a commodity to me as opposed to management...

Later,
Jim.

PS: "Regulated taking" means the seizure of private land to satisfy "critical habitat"...As a result of court challenges that were VERY expensive for the Service, they developed new methods of circumventing land acquisitions...The development of NGO partnerships as "affiliates"...The NGO's buy the land and either donate it to the government or they place conservation easements on it...
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CSRAJim

What I don't understand is why he is singling out the amphibian trade when he states that zoos and laboratories are also part of the problem. Is it not also true that chytrid can be transported on clothing and vitually any other item you can think of? We would need to ban eco-tourism as well. And fruit and vegetables, just about anything really. No lets just ban frogs. The rest of the stuff we can allow as long as they follow certain protocols. But frogs no. Protocols will work just fine for everything else.

"...zoos and laboratories, both of which can contribute to disease spread (Pessier et al., 1999; Parker et al., 2002)"

And how about this:
"Australia successfully banned virtually all amphibian sales outside of zoo and research settings"

The only problem is he also says this:
"It[Chytrid fungus] is widespread throughout Australia"

So I guess banning frogs in Austrailia didn't do much good did it? The bottom line is that this guys personal opinion is that the pet trade is of no benefit to society. Implementing best practices are totally doable he just doesn't want to look at that option.

.......Visions of the annointed. Social changes through self congradulation. VM

The bottom line is that this guys personal opinion is that the pet trade is of no benefit to society.

Another personal opinion could be that non-profit organizations have no benefit to society. I hear lots of people complaining all the time about churches taking in lots of money and not paying taxes. Perhaps mr. nonprofit should take his tax free donations and stfu.

I would agree with the previous comments. The guy has more of a wild animals belong in the wild agenda rather than a "save the frogs" agenda. The wild animals belong in the wild agenda hasn't had much success, as previously noted.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

We have a very good frog population where I now live. Haven't seen so many Amphibians in 50 years...Bullfrogs, Leopard Frogs, Chorus Frogs, Gray and Green Tree Frogs, Cricket Frogs, Spadefoot Toads, Gulfcoast Toads.

Why so many frogs? Absolutely great habitat. I can't begin to tell you how many grasshoppers, crickets, moths, butterflies, other insects and other arthropods available here to support a healthy Anuran population. There is adequate habitat as well. Kill the bugs (food source) and you loose the frog population. Destroy the habitat and you loose the frog population.

When people like Mr. Kriger want to shut down commerce in such animals, they are avoiding the real issue. They are in effect sticking their head in the sand, as the proverbial Ostrich would, hoping the problem [as they see it] will go away.

The commercial activity of Humans is what's killing the animals -- habitat loss, habitat degradation, habitat fracture. The sad part (hypocritical) is that the economics of human activity other than the direct commodity trade in "wild type" animals is what's doing all the damage, and those directly benefiting from such commerce to the detriment of animals in the wild are the very ones making the decisions in regard to banning certain commerce. Obviously they are not going to point the finger at themselves and limit or otherwise cease their own economic interests, so what do they do, they find a convenient ally, to assist them in scapegoating a commercial sector they have no interest in, with the quid pro quo agreement to sole access to the subject for their co-conspirator.

If Mr. Kriger were sincere in his effort, he would oppose far more than just the food, bait, and pet sectors of the economy as related to frogs.

"And now you know the rest of the story" PH.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The commercial activity of Humans is what's killing the animals -- habitat loss, habitat degradation, habitat fracture. The sad part (hypocritical) is that the economics of human activity other than the direct commodity trade in "wild type" animals is what's doing all the damage, and those directly benefiting from such commerce to the detriment of animals in the wild are the very ones making the decisions in regard to banning certain commerce. Obviously they are not going to point the finger at themselves and limit or otherwise cease their own economic interests, so what do they do, they find a convenient ally, to assist them in scapegoating a commercial sector they have no interest in, with the quid pro quo agreement to sole access to the subject for their co-conspirator.

I was watching one of those "save the orangutans" shows one time and these people went to pull a couple out of this small patch of forest (very small) in the middle of a palm oil plantation on Borneo (one of the Kalimantan provinces, it was in Indo.). What really shocked me about it was in some of the shots where they panned the area there was no treeline to be seen at all. It was nothing but Palm oil plantation in all directions as far as the eye could see. As bad as that was from my understanding it is even worse on the island of Madagascar it is even worse.
If we do not keep and breed the animals from these places in captivity they will be gone. There is going to be no wild left for them to "belong" in. Zoos cannot do it all by themselves and it is well past time for them to admit that.

Two Anurans gone from the Houston [TX} area are the Houston Toad and the Crayfish Frog.

They certainly didn't disappear due to the "Pet" trade.

There may be a few Crayfish Frogs left, but they're not common. Probably none in the Greater Houston Metropolitan area.

I do not know what the Houston Zoo's and the Texas Parks and Wildlife's success for reintroduction of the Houston Toad is.

jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Calparsoni,

>>The commercial activity of Humans…habitat loss, habitat degradation, habitat fracture…

Yep, it’s us (humans) doing the dirty deed of exploiting Gaia Earth but it’s not just the “greedy” international, big-business types…The “greedy” humans here also includes the international conservation NGO’s…You see, for decades, they’ve been doing something called “debt-for-nature swaps” to acquire 1,000’s of acres of lands in countries all over the earth and once acquired, they form “partnerships” with those very same “greedy” international, big-business types AND hedge fund “portfolio managers” for PROFITS. What is sad here is that the conservation NGO’s SAY they’re doing it to conserve nature and wildlife (which they do) but, that is only PART of their motive. You see, they, despite their PR assertions of protecting mother earth for media distribution, are also motivated by the same old human weakness of GREED! Despite the assertions to the contrary, they are driven by money as well…After all, they are only human.

The hypocrisy here is that if “big-business” profits by themselves, this is deemed very bad…If “big-business” in “partnership” with conservation NGO’s profits together, this is deemed very good. Another profiteer in the exploitation of the natural world is the government itself…Whether it’s ours or another, the government PROFITS just the same in the form of fees, licenses, taxes, kickbacks, etc…The government CONDONES this PROFITEERING activity.

Oh yeah, it is GREED, that results in the graft and corruption at the government level that allows the continuation of the international trafficking and exploitation of wildlife worldwide…We’re only told about the individuals and because governments CONTROL and REGULATE all of this, in the end, they ultimately get a pass…I suppose it’s because the conservation NGO’s like visiting their international PORTFOLIO’s – which could be denied at the airport – this is not likely to change no matter how many reports are written about the age old problem…After all, where DO the zoos, museums, natural history exhibits, universities, etc, acquire their "wild" specimens anyway? Because they are so small in scale, they CANNOT support their continued operations due to space…And by regulation (AZA, etc), they CANNOT work with us…

A “debt-for-nature swap” is where a country (usually a third world country in South America, Central America, Southeast Asia and Africa) that is deeply in debt to another sovereign nation (first world country) or an “international bank” (e.g. World Bank, etc)…And because the country is poor (for whatever reason-culture, dictatorship, etc) and with no hope of repaying the debt, they sell the “toxic loan” (e.g. bad paper) to one of the conservation NGO’s at a discount to “settle the debt”. The Conservation NGO gets 100’s and/or 1,000’s of acres of land at a discount and the loan goes off the books at a loss. Then the conservation NGO’s set up shop with the international big-business partners and the new breed of greedy humans, the hedge fund “portfolio managers” and begin setting up shop for PROFITS. Within this, the conservation NGO’s DO set aside land for wildlife preserves and they DO conserve wildlife and natural habitat but at the same time, they ALSO exploit that same land for PROFIT (theirs).

The bottom line is that ALL natural resources are derived from the land or sea and without them, ALL life as we humans know it would drastically change…For them as well as everybody else and they like being able to drive their SUV’s; construct/renovate beautiful office complexes; set up computer websites so they can “tweet” their conservation message; fly in planes to visit their foreign land portfolio’s, testify before congress and attend international conferences for media PR…What is going unreported in this is that as the US, Europe, China, etc cease using their own natural resources in their OWN countries, they DO need these resources (e.g. oil, coal, timber, etc)…They simply “outsource” these needs to other countries (third world) – to develop and maintain the “global economy” and “global markets” as these “commodities” are traded and managed by “speculators” (e.g. hedge fund managers, stock markets, etc) – for PROFITS, at the expense of the animals. In effect, the wildlife preserves are essentially outdoor zoos without walls, reserved for the academic “elite” that are granted access for study (funded by grants) to write their papers and appear on nature TV infomercials…

>>If we do not keep and breed the animals from these places in captivity they will be gone. There is going to be no wild left for them to "belong" in. Zoos cannot do it all by themselves and it is well past time for them to admit that.

Yep but that is something that they probably will not do as although they (zoos, etc) are exempted from the same regulations that regulate what we do, they ARE regulated by other “agencies” such as the AZA…And by these regulations, they are PROHIBITED from participating with “amateurs”…Yeah right.

Later,
Jim.

PS: Our mortgage “crisis” that facilitated our financial “crisis” that resulted in our taxpayer funded “bailouts” because they were “to big to fail” is nothing more than a “debt for nature swap” in principle…Only it was our homes instead of tracks of undeveloped land in foreign countries. And who was “overseeing” all of this “crisis management” throughout the entire process? It was our Federal government that even participated in engineering the “crisis” via a GSE known as Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc…Of note here is that what just happened has happened before…Many years ago, we had a “crisis” that involved the savings and loan institutions and before that, it was the family farm…
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CSRAJim

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Great post. We "little people" need to start thinking about this stuff. I don't pretend to have a good understanding of all the things you just said but I would like to add that it is not neccessarily a bad thing for nature preservation/conservation organizations to make money too.

they were willing to admit that they are also in it at least PARTIALLY for the money (grants, salaries, or whatever financial incentive employees or directors may have). Such groups are very hypocritical if they point out that private business is "greedy", but representing themselves and government agencies as totally altruistic.

The problem, IMO, comes when they exceed their purview. We hire regulators to REGULATE-the BP disaster shows what happens when regulators instead cozy up to the industry they should be watching.

When I give money to the NWF, or the Audubon Society, I EXPECT them to use it, as they have in the past for the most part, to protect habitat, advocate for reducing pollution and environmental degradation, and lobby to protect endangered species.

However, I also EXPECT them to adhere to the best science available, and this is where I believe a lot of orgs and gov regulators are falling down in the Chytrid and invasive reptile issues. And this is where the membership should be speaking up.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Brad,

Until I learned what I learned, I used to contribute as well...Not any more.

>>However, I also EXPECT them to adhere to the best science available, and this is where I believe a lot of orgs and gov regulators are falling down in the Chytrid and invasive reptile issues. And this is where the membership should be speaking up

Case in point is what you said above...Who do you think they are really listening too? I ask that question because if you read where the money comes from - membership dues, etc, versus the donor grants - well, if most of them had to exist on their membership dues, they'd cease to exist. My 10-cents worth here is to follow the money...This is the trail of who they're actually actually has their attention.

Regarding science, well that's VERY problematic in that it takes time and as with the Python Report, sometimes reveals results contrary to the agenda...Not good! So the solution is the dialectic, or the synthesis of the thesis and its antithesis by introducing "social concerns" (unscientific) into the equation.

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Kathy,

I agree...One of the items discovered during the IRS investigation of the Nature Conservancy (Senate Hearings, 2005) was the millions of dollars of 0% interest loans from the non-profit organization to the "elite" members...In addition to the low-to-middle 100K salaries, they were "profiting" themselves (zero interest on loans) from the grant donations...

After reading quite a few of their IRS 990 Forms (IRS requirement of public disclosure), if most of them had to exist on their membership dues, they'd be virtually irrelevant as the first thing that they tout before Congress during their testimony is how many "private citizens" they represent...They leave out the part of their cash cow donors...I wonder who they actually listen to?

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

I agree and thank you for the added clarification.

Aaron,

>>...not neccessarily a bad thing for nature preservation/conservation organizations to make money too...

I know what I wrote seems to be bashing ALL of them...I'm not I just don't have the time to write a novel about this stuff...

My problems, just to name a few, with SOME of them is;

1) Their non-profit status...If what they do is deemed important to the citizens of our country, then they should have to "compete" just like everybody else and the fact that they DO make a profit and can invest those profits for use later,

2) Their tax-exempt status...See above...No one person, no group, no business should have any preferential treatment before the government or we, the people,

3) Their preferential treatment before the government as a quasi-governmental agnecy...They are not the government and should not have any preferential treatment by the government,

4) Their source of funding (e.g. grants from big-philanthropy)...What they do, is ALL they do...Meaning they produce nothing, they make nothing except governmental "policy" recommendations,

5) Their "secrecy" and deception...What some of them say they are doing - under the guise of education - is not what they're actually doing and how they are profiting from what some of them are doing,

That's enough for the moment...

Later,
Jim.

PS: I encourage you to spend some time educating yourself on some of this stuff...It's been going on for decades, in plain sight, without no media coverage whatsoever...Everything I've learned, I didn't learn by watching the news...My question is why? For instance, type "what is a TIMO" or "what is a debt-for-nature swap" on your search engine and spend a week or so just reading what comes up...I guarantee you that you will be surprised as to what you will read...They have published reports (including PDF's) that are available for reading and not discussed in the storyline media...I'll bet you'll ask yourself "what is this" often...
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CSRAJim

Thanks. I will do those searches.

Very interesting info, Jim! I now know what a TIMO is and also what an EIMO is.

Creating a new asset class

More info:

Biodiversity Banking: A Primer

Web,

Again, thanks, this information update is new as well. Unfortunately, the concept is not. These “mitigation banks” already exist as part of the latest Farm Bill…In other words, these banks already exist here in the United States! In fact, there’s a paper prepared by one of America’s notable NGO, non-profits…The Defenders of Wildlife (link below)…Also, a democratic member of the House of Representatives actually proposed a bill for the creation of just such a banking system…Funded by the American taxpayer for the express purpose of funding “green projects” (link below)

From the info you provided…

>>Assuming agreement of the need to protect Earth's biological wealth, how much would you be prepared to pay to protect an endangered fly? Would you spend $1.50, $15, $150,000, or more?

>>How about society as a whole: How much should society spend on the protection of this fly? Does the answer depend on the nature of the fly itself? On its role in the ecosystem?

>>Or is the calculus based on something else – perhaps on what you must give up to save the fly, or your standard of living, or your priorities?

>>The questions may seem crass and materialistic – and in some ways they are – but they are essential if the world is to conserve the species and ecosystems that sustain humankind.

>>The reason is simple: like many other important matters, the staggering loss of biodiversity is really a matter of values – and not just the principles that allow people to distinguish right from wrong, but also the more mundane concept of economic values.

Wow, now they’re even using the terminology of Marx, ”materialistic”. Well how about that! I suggest a reading of W. Cleon Skousen’s book, The Naked Communist. There are many tenets of Marx’s view of communism and one of them is materialism based on matter and man…Compare this information below (from your information) to what you’ll read in the Defenders of Wildlife 2007 paper…See any similarities? I ask you, is it a good idea for the USEPA to be involved in the sale of private land on the basis of the land use? And what about the “councils” that will review the sale as well? Well, a reading of this current information reveals that they are selling the idea of financial socialism…So much for private property and welcome to the USSA, the United Socialist States of America!

>>Countries use a variety of mechanisms for giving value to ecosystems and the services they provide. In essence, these can be summarized as follows:

>>Government sets the price: This is done either by fining those who damage the ecosystems (through endangered species laws, for instance) or by paying those who conserve it (providing tax breaks or subsidies for conservation, for example). While these systems are useful and play an important role in protecting biodiversity, they suffer from a fundamental flaw: they do not send the right signals to the economy; they do not permit society, via markets, to determine and understand the actual value (the price) of biodiversity.

>>Voluntary transactions set the price: Users of ecosystem services voluntarily agree on the value with those who provide the services. These "self-organized private deals" are sometimes mislabeled as "markets," but true markets depend on multiple buyers and multiple sellers meeting regularly to exchange goods and services. In contrast, in most cases these are one-time-only deals. They may also take the form of "voluntary biodiversity offsets," in which an individual or company that damages biodiversity pays to "protect, enhance, or restore" an equivalent amount of biodiversity somewhere else.

>>A hybrid system sets the price: In this case, scarcity of a traditionally "public" good is established through government regulation, which then forces buyers and sellers to negotiate in order to set a price for the good or service in question. Examples of this include various "cap-and-trade" schemes in the United States for sulfur dioxide and in Europe for greenhouse gases. These schemes create true markets because they generate demand for services from multiple buyers and therefore lead to the provision of services from multiple sellers.

Defenders of Wildlife Report, “Buying, Selling and Trading Biodiversity in Washington: A Bazaar for Biodiversity”, February 2007
http://www.[url ban]/resources/publications/programs_and_policy/biodiversity_partners/buying,_selling_and_trading_biodiversity_in_washington.pdf

Green Bank Act of 2009
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1698ih.txt.pdf

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

Web,

You're welcome and the "ethical" concept from the partnership of business, government, church and non-profit's of the EIMO. This is a new one! So thank you as it's been a while since I researched the CBD (UN)...

“Governments, churches and non-profits can’t do the job. They don’t have the funds necessary to eliminate poverty, protect natural resources, enhance quality of life, and nurture conservation. That’s where ethical business steps in.”

http://www.cbd.int/doc/newsletters/news-biz-2007-10/?articleid=78

Really, this utopian cabal is going to accompish all of this by adopting the CBD's EIMO concept? Man, they are gods! I wonder how much they are actually going to pay the people in poverty to give up their national sovereignty when they adopt the EIMO?

This is nothing more than Marx's dialectic in action as NEVER in man's history has man EVER solved the problem of poverty because, man, in his infinite wisdom cannot (and never will) solve ALL of the reasons for poverty. And these academic rocket scientists think they can do it? Really? So just how much are the people, who will do the work, get paid? Obviously, not very much because in order to end poverty, all must be employed or benefit from the equitable sharing of their wages with those who can't work.

In reality, the only people who WILL profit from this socialist scheme will be the government, the non-profits, the investment managers and the business. After all, poverty can be redefined into what ever definition they want to justify their PR storyline.

One question though, after all of the working people get paid their wages, what will they be able to buy? I suppose they can shop at the company or government store (after they've stood in line) to buy the necessities of life to survive to go to work the next week but is that living out of poverty? I suppose if it's good enough for the Soviet Union, it's good enough for the rest of the world. Worker's of the world unite!

To each according to his means...

Later,
Jim.

PS: Anyone has any doubt about what's happening in the world today?
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CSRAJim

Assuming(not that I even doubt it) for a moment that all this is true, this grand plan; of what value would winning the right(or some rights) to keep, sell, trade herps be? I mean are we making a difference here? I hope we are. It's said that people fight for what they love and I do consider the herp hobby my form of the pursuit of happiness. However I think when our founding fathers spoke of the pursuit of happiness I think they were more concerned with economic and religious happiness, not hobbies. So what value is it to have the freedom to persue hobbies like ours?

It's as fundamental a human right as any. It speaks to the core, to the very essence, of what true freedom is all about.
Though some may think so, we have not yet become so sophisticated that these endeavors are beneath us. That certainly would be an individual choice, but clearly not a legitimate societal edict.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Aaron,

Great questions…I’ll answer it as follows and I hope it makes sense.

You stated part of the answer in your post…”economic”. Granted in yours and my cases, we’re talking about hobby as I have no intention of doing what I do with my herps to make a 100K per year. If I was independently wealthy, I wouldn’t sell any of them but, I have to provide food, husbandry supplies and an occasional vet bill which requires money. So, on a small scale, I participate in commerce of a commodity (agricultural product by definition)…Now consider that the operation is an even smaller scale…Say you only trade in the commodity of animals…How do you accomplish this? Well you either participate in interstate transport by using a private business or traveling to a show or field. If you’re limited to just field collecting (with the appropriate licenses and permits from your state and/or fed’s), then not much of this affects what you do.

If however, you participate on a slightly larger scale, then HR-669, S-373, HR-2811, etc, would effectively end that form of commerce (commodity trade). What I’m saying is that what the AR organizations and government bureaucracies are attempting to gain control of the commerce under their jurisdiction (enforcement) as they are empowered to do by congressional legislation…In other words, it’s just one piece of the entire puzzle: national control of commerce. Under HR-669, not only would what we do be severely regulated – if not ended – so to would many other animal products (commodities). You see, wildlife legislation is not just about the animals (commodities) themselves it’s about every product derived from them (e.g. meat, feathers, eggs, skins, etc). So you see, under the guise of “endangered species” they were attempting to “control” many other commodities as well…This is the dialectic in practice. A false premise…

So, what to do? First, you have to look at the big picture. I mean how you view the impact of what’s happening to just your neck of the woods is like focusing on your tree in the forest. The socialists are talking about the entire forest…Which includes your tree. Therefore, what effects the entire forest will affect your tree – whether you like it or not. For example, back in the 70’s (when the ESA was being implemented), they were regulating migratory birds and fish – numerous treaties with foreign nations (including CITES) that resulted in the legal justification for the ESA itself. Go and read the ESA of 1973 for yourself. At the time, many people (me included) didn’t pay attention and look where we are now. Second, you’re going to have to inform yourself. This is going to take work on your part as if you trust what others tell you (me included), then you have relegated yourself to ignorance…Meaning, you are subject to manipulation. This is an abdication of your power as a voter as no one can represent me better than me. Third, by addressing the first two “things to do”, you will become involved in the way our founding father intended: individual representation. When I speak to the staff of my congressman or senator, I’m speaking to them for a position of knowledge (I do know what I’m talking about) and therefore, I can challenge them in a way that they understand: I’m an informed voter with friends and family. And each of my friends and family members are also voters as well…If they take me for granted then they will be unemployed and back in the private sector.

Look, I fully understand that this may not be practical everywhere in the nation (as some congressional districts are majority socialist) but, are you going to take this lying down? You can take the position that I’ll operate in secret and keep a low profile but, if they want to know, eventually they will. I mean do your family and friends know what you do? Do they have family and friends? As the circle of acquaintances widens, the odds are, eventually someone knows…I hate to put it that way but, these days, with “tweets” and other public information that is out there…Well, just think about it…

Finally, many waters have run under the bridge over many decades that have resulted in a gradual loss of our freedoms…Each under the guise of some public problem that have included farms, ranching, banking, finance, insurance, investment, commerce, etc and with each of these, the government (and their private special interests) have undertaken “regulation” of them…Note, when a government wants to control something, it regulates it – after which they can allow it (taxes) or ban it. You need to look at the big picture (the forest) to protect the freedom of your tree as when the forest goes so too will your tree.

After all, who is the government (and their special interests) to tell me what happiness is? I need none of them as I can read the Constitution for myself...Which begs the question, why have THEY taken it upon themselves to tell me something different? The answer lies in the dialectic of the Constitution beings a "living document"...It is NOT and from a reading of the Federalist, I know what the Founding Fathers intended the Constitution to be because three of them wrote about it. i do not need someone from the Kennedy School of Government to tell me what the Constitution says...I have the words of the Founders themselves...So again, why are so many people attempting to redefine what the Constitution is and is not?

I hope that helps…

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

After a time you cant stop, the amount of time is different for different people. You have done it to long to turn back. Doctors, Lawers, Government, Family, PAIN, will all tell you to stop, but then you will think about a life without it, for about five minutes and then you will know, you cant stop, it becomes your Existential destiny. Once you reach this point, your at peace, you are afrade of nothing you would have to die to stop. Vic Morgan

"The commercial activity of Humans is what's killing the animals -- habitat loss, habitat degradation, habitat fracture. The sad part (hypocritical) is that the economics of human activity other than the direct commodity trade in "wild type" animals is what's doing all the damage, and those directly benefiting from such commerce to the detriment of animals in the wild are the very ones making the decisions in regard to banning certain commerce. Obviously they are not going to point the finger at themselves and limit or otherwise cease their own economic interests, so what do they do, they find a convenient ally, to assist them in scapegoating a commercial sector they have no interest in, with the quid pro quo agreement to sole access to the subject for their co-conspirator."

In that regard the source of these problems is a growth based ecomony. For a growth based economy to work you need a continual supply of more and more people. Switching from a growth based economy to an ecomony that is based on sustainability is such a monumental task. I really even have a hard time wrapping my brain around the concept but I am fairly certain you cannot stop overpopulation without that switch. I think many scientists and conservationists are scrambling to do something, anything, to halt the wholesale destruction of our earth's natural resources and we herpers just happen to be one of the easiest targets.

A lot of biologists and conservationists are suffering what I would call "an Excess of zeal". They're looking for small victories anywhere they can get them, and we're one of the perceived "low-hanging fruit".

Our relative success at resisting the more draconian restrictions on herp ownership and trade are no doubt quite discouraging, especially to our "friends" over at HSUS, who have made the elimination of our hobby/industry a major focus over the last decade
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Ribit!