Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This will be my effort for this year, please, its not about arguing or fighting. If you don' like it or don't agree, that is great.

First, tame monitors. Yes there are tame monitors. But first, what does tame mean. If it means it does not bite or tail whip, then you may need to rethink your difinition. I would think "tame" means, the monitor includes you in its normal behaviors. That is, you can interfere, be around, move around the monitor, without it altering its approach to normal life events. Once familiar with people, most monitors do not bite anyway. Unless they are givin good reason.

What I find odd is how many think a recently imported monitor, can be tame, within a few months of leaving nature. If you think about that, then you may realize, not biting or tail whipping is not about being tame. It may be more about fear and being submissive, then being tame.

Something to think about, biting and tail whipping are methods monitors use to comunicate with eachother. With them, its about pocessions and space. Why do they bite or tail whip you?

If this goes good, maybe the next subject could be how temperature plays a huge part with behavior. F

Although I do not have a clever explaination to what "tame" means, I can say that by expirience, the animals that I trust most, still tailwhip me on an everyday basis. They have been doing so for years. But that is why I trust them, I know what to expect from them, you begin to learn their habits, although I realize that any circumstance can cause a sudden change in "habit" I have had animals come in, that seemed to tolerate me, but as FR said those are the ones that are frightened, and those are the animals that bring caution to me. (you do know the habits) So to some up this rambling, I am saying that the monitors that I would call my "tamest" are just the ones that I have "learned" their habits, weather the habits are whipping or not. I guess it's just the way monitors tame US.

I guess I never thaught of the definition of tame to much. If you look at it nothing is ever tamed. A dog may tolerate it's owner but rip the next person to shreds. A monitor may tolerate you under most cicumstances then become defensive or flighty if a change is made. These are things that I've noticed w/ my collection. Well I notice that my varanus tail whip,hiss,& other forms of their langauge at both myself & each other. The ones that do it the most are my albigs. though. They hiss & tail whip over food. I like how my indicus & ornatus watch me when I'm sitting in view. The indicus I let walk the basement has a burrow, that he dug, under the stairs; climbs up other cages to get to a shelf. He is acustomed to me so doesn't do any defensive behaviors, as of yet, for the 3yrs. of my ownership of him. I do notice that the warmer they all are, the less they want to be held. With the exception of a dumerilii male & orientalis female, I used to own, who would lounge on my arm no matter what if I picked them up. Out of all my current residents they just watch me for awhile then go on doing what they were doing if no food is present. If given the chance all will rather be left alone to hide.

At least, they are with me. =) I still don't like that word, though.
I'd rather say that they are my friends. Which includes the familiarity of telling me what they really think. How else can they communicate? They don't vocalize, or have body language like any mammal I've met. Yet they effectively show me thru the force and intensity of their posturing and slapping, how they feel at that time. The reaction depends on what they are doing at that moment.
For instance, War just token hisses when I pick him out of the cage. (He is bored and wants out?) If he is climbing on the other male's cage, looking for a fight, and I try to pick him up, he gets quite angry with me. I don't think he suddenly become less tame. He is telling me he is busy, and I am bothering him. For him to act the same with me at all times, would mean he has no brain. IMO. I'm sure I could get him to bite me, if I bugged him to do it. Yet, I know he accepts me, I just do. If that is 'tame', well then, OK.
But I also know he will not be 'tame' with others. He does not know them.
Often I let them soak in the tub, and they snooze. The males open their eyes, see its me, and close them again. (Not the female, she's odd). It used to be, they would all be alert and wary whenever I was in view but I don't warrant that effort anymore. These examples isn't a tail wag or lick on the hand, but I equate it to as much, its just a different language. IMO.
I think about these things sometimes, because when a stranger visits, I see all the behaviors they used to do with me, when they didn't know me. In this way, I enjoy their 'affection'.

What is tame, in the pet owners' mind? An animal that accepts interaction with ALL humans? The ones they live with, and the complete strangers too? I think that would describe an animal with no brain, or one that no longer wanted to live.
Ok, enough rambling.
D.

Goon your bubble is so dang easy to pop, I simply cannot resist doing so. Please do not get mad.

Your need for them to be "friends" is only your need. Therefore, your interpitation is only yours. What you have done is proved that the lambs will indeed lie down with the lion. Once the lambs realize the lion is not going to eat them. They will allow closer encounters. Is that tame?

But realize this, if you were to take them back to indo, or even outside, they would bolt for the trees like a cat on fire. (Remember, they are reptiles, and it needs to be hot enough to allow bolting)

This is nothing against you, but why do you need them to be your friend? All you should need is for them to tolerate your presences, so they can carry on being monitors.

Part of this thread was to see all the different interpitations of tame. Then to see how much of that was about monitors and how much was about people. I picked your responce, because I know you and know that you are an honest caring truthful person.

How does tame benefit the monitors? How does "tame" benefit you?

On a side note, most of the people who keep monitors, when asked why want to keep them, would say, I want to keep them because they are wonderful, unique, interesting creatures, then most set out to change them into something they are not.

Your thoughts and discussion. F

hahaha

The subject interests me, too.

Of course, my monitors would bolt and not ever look back. I'd like to think they'd run faster from me, than from a stranger, because they know for sure, I will try and touch them. I think that is intelligent. But if they cannot run, they trust me to not hurt them, at the very least.
I guess friends is the wrong term. They have little choice in the matter. The alternative is death. Fear of me would lead to death sooner or later. The big male would surely be dead now, if he had not learned to accept my presence. Antibiotics cured the URI, but it would have come back, had he not made some choices. I am aware, they all might die yet. There could be some internal diesease processes going on, due to the stress of living with me. I'm not gonna be terribly surprised, if I find one dead someday. They are wildcaughts, and wild animals.
I do try to keep this in mind, when bothering them.
We all bother our monitors, though, even you. Everything about captivity bothers them. Its just a matter of degree.

Learning to trust me has resulted in more life, for the time being. This is speaking for my own WC varanids.

For captive monitors, in general, tractability results in more permanent homes, and more allocation of the keeper's funds. Monitors cost a lot in money, floor space, and effort to find info on them. That is asking a lot of humans, who have very short attention spans, and many options for their money and time. Keeping wild animals in our homes is purely selfish, IMO. And the animals that allow for more pleasant human interaction, will get more money and effort spent on them. I don't have numbers to back this up, these are just my thoughts.

How many homes do nasty savs go thru, vrs. the tractable ones?
Yeah, I know, they are all dead in a year, hahahaha, oops, that's sad. Sorry.

The word 'tame' needs constant explaining to entry level owners, I think. More lit. needs to be written explaining the varanid way. I am new to my animals, perhaps I misread them sometimes, or a lot. I see them accepting with me, but not with strange humans. They are tame to my thinking, but I wouldn't ever use that word with people.
People want tame to mean, accepting of strangers. Monitors don't do that with other monitors, even of the same species, so why would they do that with a foreign species?? People want to be somehow better than another monitor is, to a monitor?
I think that's unfair and unrealistic. The problem is with people, not the animals.
D.

Even most dogs aren't tame if you really look at it. They protect their turf from "strangers" but because you, the owner, are part of its "pack" structure and often the alpha.. they defer to you. Canines may be domesticated but they are never truly "tame" in regards to interaction with strangers. The moment someone pushes a dog's boundaries is the moment someone gets hurt, because, no matter how strong or fast we are, we can never be stronger or faster than an animal with just our own 2 feet, hands and mouths. We need cars and guns and other weapons to "tame" the animals into tractability (save those using better methods on captive animals). Monitors are somewhat the same in my opinion (and I do realize this is only my opinion). They do become "tolerant" but they are wild animals...if you know their behavior you're safer, but it doesn't make you their friend, and it sure in the hell won't stop them from defending themselves against a percieved threat, even from their owner. Just as you get used to their behaviors, they get used to yours...but change your behaviors too much and I believe they'll become defensive again. (Again, only my opinion) But, you are never truly safe around any animal because you can never predict with 100% certainty what their reactions will be to a given situation. You can only theorize what they MAY do...not what they will do.
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Lucien

1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
3.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 2 het Blizzard)
0.1 Savannah Monitor
13 rats
12 Gerbils
2 Dogs
3 cats
1 Albino Corey (fish)

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np

IT was explained to me like this. Waran, was atributed to them because, they were, aware, alert, first to react to impending danger. They were always looking, keeping tract of their surroundings, to monitor in english. But hey, what do I know. F

Yes, the original word means "warning"

Jim

Who told you about WARAN? Didn't you think for yourself after "IT was told to you"? Remember Mr. Frank THINK, THINK, THINK. And speak as if in your writing in olde english. ole pious and your highness, for do not think that which one can not speak through is so commonly available.

You know, your really a silly person. I could really careless what it means. How about Leguaan, or goanna or varanus, They are only names, why they were named is totally meaningless to the monitors or how I keep them. Remember I am only a keeper.

Now on the otherhand, if Waran meant, keep these lizards from 75 to 150F and feed whole food items and allow for homes, and provide nesting, then I would care. But it doesn't. To bad huh? if it did, all we would have to do is look up the names. There would be no need for this forum.

Also, you should ask yourself, why you care what I know or don't know, or do or don't do. Again remember, i am only a person with lots of reptile experience, that does not make me smart or god, in fact, by difinitation of the general pulbic it makes we a weirdo. I'am over that, what about you? F

Yea I admit I went a little overboard on that one. Had a few beers in me. I 'll try to stay away from "drinking and posting" next time.

Is that not the FIRST thing people ask you when they want to know if your animal is "tame"?
I usually respond by saying..."Well its got a mouth, right?"

I consider and animal tame when:

1. It doesnt go bonkers when it sees movement outside its enclosure.(I mean bonkers by it almost breaking its from neck bouncing off the walls in terror)
2. Eats readily.(provided its healthy)
3. When a three year old can cuddle and kiss it on its scaly lips.

Just kidding about three However I feel that an animal is tame when its appearantly adapted to life in a box, and shows all the outward signs of what one would expect to find in a healthy individual. The best example would be the ability to carry out normal life events in a captive setting. -Now thats tame, IMO.

Michelle

This one is a little hard for me to grasp. So any animal that carries out normal life events is "tame." When a monitor is able to carry out normal life events in captivity, I believe that monitor is adaptive, or the husbandry/conitions allowed that to occur, but I wouldn't call a monitor "tame" for carrying out those events. Maybe you can shed some light on this for me, explain a bit more on what you mean. I mean so KD's that are allowed to carry normal life events are tame. I think you kinda created a whole new definition of tame. But hey what do i know, maybe your on to something here, embellish on it a bit so i can understand it better. I do appreciate the uniqueness of it though. Once again apologize for the rambling folks.

R_Hilo

If youre furtunate enough to be in a situation where you can provide for these wonderful creatures, and while in your care they are able to find the comfort level to carry out these life events, than yes, that is IMO, a degree of tameness.

You see, I absolutely love cats. I have 6 cats that all love being cuddled and petted, and loved on. Thats really cool to me, that this animal, who still so resembles those huge cousins of theirs in the wilds, is so adapted to living with me and sharing my company this way. They are, by classical definition, "tame".

On the other hand, monitors...my monitors, your monitors, Dragoons monitors, and Franks monitors should never, ever, have to have this standard to be judged by. You know it was Linneus (sp) who was one of the first persons to go around and formally start classifying animals. If he hadnt started it, someone else would have. Its simply human nature to describe, classify, organize, and place our own man made lables on things. Being that the whole monitor scene is still realitively new, we are despretly trying to classify varanids in the same perameters as any housepet. Its like having a speedometer that redlines at 5000 rpms on a ferreri- it just doesnt fit.

So maybe still my definition and perameters for "tame" when applied to monitors are different than others, but hell, I never have been a very orthodox thinker.

Rgrds,
Michelle

Besides the fact that all humans are idiots....I like the fact that we all can think for ourselves and have are own opinions. Well some of us. Anyway their would be no use to these forums if we all though alike. Have a good one michelle.

R_Hilo

Have you considered, what it is when a monitor treats you like a monitor???

Really, as opposed to the monitor being like a person, which it has absolutely no ability to do. F

You Bet...

My monitor's have me tamed... When they crap i clean it. When they are hungry I fed them. When they want to they whip me, bite me, and so on. when they need more heat i give it to them, and they same goes for the rest of what they need to achieve the best conditions I can provide. When they need something I am "Johnny of the spot" So you bet they have me tamed. We are just the monitor's servants basically.

R_Hilo

*chuckles* Exactly.. as a commercial just so eloquently demonstrated with a dog who "said" "Humans think they have us trained but you don't see us picking up their poop"
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Lucien

1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
3.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 2 het Blizzard)
0.1 Savannah Monitor
13 rats
12 Gerbils
2 Dogs
3 cats
1 Albino Corey (fish)

Main Entry: tame
Pronunciation: 'tAm
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): tam·er; tam·est
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English tam; akin to Old High German zam tame, Latin domare to tame, Greek damnanai
Date: before 12th century
1 : reduced from a state of native wildness especially so as to be tractable and useful to humans : DOMESTICATED
2 : made docile and submissive : SUBDUED

by that definition , my nile is tame. He is definitly not a wild animal and is of use to me (keeps me company, enternaining to watch). He is also docile and submissive (lets me pick him up and pet him no problem).

and no, my presence does not interfere with his daily activities.
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- ianaré

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What would happen if he were set down in a forest? Would he stay? Come back when called?
D.

what would a domestic cat do in the same circumstance?
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- ianaré

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