Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was just looking at the rules section for the Daytona show and it states no rear fanged allowed. I know that last year you could not bring tri-colored hogs but westerns were allowed. Has it changed? Does anyone know?

Well technically the whole Hognose being rear fanged sucks.

I don't know about the Daytona show but UPS and Fed Ex does not allow any rear fanged snakes. I don't know how you guys are shipping unless it is Delta dash. Hognoses are not only against the shippers policy but illegal to ship...IF YOU GET CAUGHT!

But hey, everybody doesit and so far nobody I know of has had any problems. I do know a rear fanged snakes was found in a shipment thru (company name held upon request) and that caused UPS to shut down any shipping of snakes.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Here is my question. What is told to UPS when shipping these "Oh so dangerous creatures."? Maybe you dont have to say JACK because it is their JOB to ship our packages no questions asked. BIG MAYBE THOUGH!! Whatever happened to "Land of the free, Home of the brave."?

We were NEVER allowed to ship snakes through UPS or FED EX..

UPS made a special deal with the company not named because of the volume of shippments... Other than that, you were not allowed to ship live snakes... They did and still do allow lizards and geckos though...

Anyway, to answer Mikes question, I do not believe there will be any restrictions on Western hogs at this or any Daytona show...

We were NEVER allowed to ship snakes through UPS or FED EX..

Actually, that is not entirely true. While UPS and Fedex do publicly state in their TOS that they do not ship live snakes under normal circumstances, there are special arrangements that both shippers make to allow for the shipment of live snakes. Fedex specifically has a waiver that you can apply for if you meet their criteria for shipping live snakes. UPS also has this but it seems to be in a far more clandestine fashion than Fedex even though Fedex does not make this information easily obtainable either.

There were only two companies that were shipping live snakes. One was Reptster which used Fedex as a shipment means a few years ago before they ran into "complications" and the other was Ship Your Reptiles, or SYR, which used UPS until just recently. SYR ran into problems with UPS because of claims that some individuals were not following the strict guidelines on how they were supposed to package the snakes and some claims were made that some venomous were also shipped (which was illegal under UPS' TOS). However, SYR still claims to legally ship snakes through UPS for their own sake, they just no longer have the service available to the public.
-----
Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

"We were NEVER allowed to ship snakes through UPS or FED EX.."

Actually, that is not entirely true

My bad. I meant to write We were never allowed to ship venemous snakes through any overnight carriers.

The Hognose fall under this catagory and someone will discover this and follow through in the near future.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Unfortunately, I find you are mistaken on a couple of fronts, maybe just "old" thinking? While it used to be that you could not ship snakes and hognose were considered mildly venomous, most of that has changed.

I've been able to ship snakes using Fed-Ex (I've had a contract) for well over 6 years now.

Also, to think and refer to Hognose as venomous is mistaken as well. Here is my favorite description (albeit it is Wikipedia)

"Members of this genus have enlarged maxillary teeth and possess a slightly toxic saliva. In a few cases involving bites from H. nasicus, the symptoms reported have ranged from none at all to mild tingling, swelling and numbness. Nevertheless, they are generally considered to be harmless.[3]"

Of course, at the end of the day it all comes down to interpretation of the rules and regulations. :O)
-----
Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

SYR would not allow hognoses due to the agreement with UPS due to venomous snakes. I heard the same thing with Fed Ex. It does not matter if you are verified. Any toxic "saliva" or venom is considered poison. Try and argue with them. I did.

It has long been known that Hognoses contain a toxixicity and are rear fanged. Hence that was the OP question on this thread if they were allowed at Daytona.

Point is, just because a hognose shipment did not make front page news. Somebody, ANYBODY, can just make a call and cause problems for you or someone esle using Fed Ex to ship. It has nothing to do with if the snake bit someone. Just th fact they are considered venemous. Then there is a problem that will continue to effect all those in the herp trade.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

I think this is something where documentation is needed (current studies) that state Hognose are not venomous, or even mildly venomous.

UPS and SYR specifically state mildly venomous in the TOS. I have yet to see anything more than a reference to Venomous in Fed-Ex's TOS. Regardless of what either company says, it's up to them and if they will accept them or not.

Whether or not shipping hognose is illegal, is extremely open to interpretation. Meaning, it would be up to the Federal authorities, and their interpretation of how the laws are written.

I would LOVE to see a list of venomous reptiles that has Heterodon listed. Can anyone find something?

The better question is; will we be allowed to keep Heterodon? With all of the new laws that are being proposed across the country, shipping them may be the least of our worries.
-----
Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

They are not rear fanged or venom snakes!!!

Hognose snakes are no longer considered to be rear fanged as this
description is no longer applicable. They are classified as Xenodontinae
which means that they have longer teeth in the back of their maxillar but
these are not hollow or furrowed and have no classic venom glans.
Being that these teeth are not hollow or furrowed, they are not capable of
"injecting" any "fluid" into their prey from these teeth.
Single bites typically result in no reaction or in some cases result in a
localized swelling and/or discoloration. In every case with more of these
local reactions the owner has allowed the snake to chew on the owner for a
decent amount of time whether it be for a type of "self-test" or to take a
funny snap shot with the camera. In other words, these bites were unnecessary extendet!
BTW...I know of the report about the "self-test" and find it very
interesting although it´s a shame that most people refer to this as a SIMPLE
BITE!

And other thought...
Most people show no reactions,
or the general reaction is a mild swelling and/or discoloration. These are not
classical signs of venom but are instead a general reaction more likely due
to every "influence" from the outeside. Let me put it this
way...when my wife gets bitten or scratched by our cat the whole hand starts
to burn, turns red and the whole area becomes swollen. Does this mean that
our cat is venomous? Or about my mother who is allergic to certain nuts,
when she would eats peanuts or hazelnuts, her whole throat will swell to the
point where she can't breath anymore and could possibly die. Does this mean
that peanuts and hazelnuts in general are venomous? No.

I believe that most of the severe reactions caused by hognose bites are due
to allergic reactions caused by the bacteria present in the saliva."

-----
Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

Thank You Stefan, I guess that means I will Be at Daytona.

I think you have misinterpreted things rather significantly. They do not have 'classic venom glands' in the sense of muscular compressor muscles that pump venom from a gland through a hollow duct to hollow, hypodermic fangs. However, these 'classic' glands have been derived on three independent occasions (Atractaspididae, Elapidae and Viperidae snake families) from a basal condition that consisted of the same venom gland. That in the primitive state oozed the venom along the posterior maxillary teeth, with it 'chewed in' by the snake into thin-skinned prey such as frogs or geckos. More refined delivery systems facilitated predation upon furry or feather prey or hole-punching through heavy scales.

Below is a linkk to our paper looking at a vast array of the venom systems of 'non-venomous' snakes.

Hognosed are technically venomous. However, this is from a evolutionary biology technical perspective. From a practical perspective, they have safely been kept by 10s of thousands of people so from a legal/medical perspective they should be considered as essentially harmless.

As for your bacterial statement, there is not a single shred of evidence supporting that.

Cheers
Bryan
Evolution of an Arsenal

-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Venomics Research Laboratory,
Department of Biochemistry,
Bio21 Institute,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Bryan - first, thank you for posting the article, I can only imagine how much work went into the publication.

Second, do you know of any information pertaining to West Indian Alsophis venom? I've captured Alsophis by hand and they are, in my experience at least, reluctant to bite. I have however wondered what effects may be exhibited if a person was bit/envomated.

Any info much appreciated, regards, Ryan Potts

>>Second, do you know of any information pertaining to West Indian Alsophis venom? I've captured Alsophis by hand and they are, in my experience at least, reluctant to bite. I have however wondered what effects may be exhibited if a person was bit/envomated.
>>
>>Any info much appreciated, regards, Ryan Potts
>>

I've heard of some decent bites by Alsophis. Here are the abstracts and details for a two papers.

Rev Cubana Med Trop. 1980 May-Aug;32(2):145-8.
[Notes on bites of the snake Alsophis cantherigerus Bibron (Reptilia-Serpentes colubridae) in Cuba]
Jaume ML, Garrido OH.

The two single cases of persons who were bitten by the abundant and current species of Cuban snake which is commonly known as "jubo" (Alsophis cantherigerus) and the bothersome lesions as a result of the enzymatic content of its saliva are reported. Likewise there are in the Antilles region other species of that genus which also cause such lesions since they also have the same characteristic. Bibliography on these ophidia and their main toxicology are pointed out.

Toxicon. 2010 Feb-Mar;55(2-3):558-69. Epub 2009 Oct 14.
Biological and proteomic analysis of venom from the Puerto Rican Racer (Alsophis portoricensis: Dipsadidae).

Weldon CL, Mackessy SP.

The Puerto Rican Racer Alsophis portoricensis is known to use venom to subdue lizard prey, and extensive damage to specific lizard body tissues has been well documented. The toxicity and biochemistry of the venom, however, has not been explored extensively. We employed biological assays and proteomic techniques to characterize venom from A. portoricensis anegadae collected from Guana Island, British Virgin Islands. High metalloproteinase and gelatinase, as well as low acetylcholinesterase and phosphodiesterase activities were detected, and the venom hydrolyzed the alpha-subunit of human fibrinogen very rapidly. SDS-PAGE analysis of venoms revealed up to 22 protein bands, with masses of approximately 5-160 kDa; very little variation among individual snakes or within one snake between venom extractions was observed. Most bands were approximately 25-62 kD, but MALDI-TOF analysis of crude venom indicated considerable complexity in the 1.5-13 kD mass range, including low intensity peaks in the 6.2-8.8 kD mass range (potential three-finger toxins). MALDI-TOF/TOF MS analysis of tryptic peptides confirmed that a 25 kDa band was a venom cysteine-rich secretory protein (CRiSP) with sequence homology with tigrin, a CRiSP from the natricine colubrid Rhabdophis tigrinus. The venom was quite toxic to NSA mice (Mus musculus: LD(50)=2.1 microg/g), as well as to Anolis lizards (A. carolinensis: 3.8 microg/g). Histology of the venom gland showed distinctive differences from the supralabial salivary glands (serous vs. mucosecretory), and like the Brown Treesnake (Boiga irregularis), another rear-fanged snake, serous secretory cells are arranged in densely packed secretory tubules, with little venom present in tubule lumina. These results clearly demonstrate that venom from A. portoricensis shares components with venoms of front-fanged snakes as well as with other rear-fanged species. Venom from A. portoricensis, in particular the prominent metalloproteinase activity, likely serves an important trophic function by facilitating prey handling and predigestion of prey.
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Venomics Research Laboratory,
Department of Biochemistry,
Bio21 Institute,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

.

thanks for the link...it was/is an interesting read!

page 10:
"...In some non-front-fanged taxa (e.g. Heterodon) the
venom duct opens directly into the oral cavity rather than to
the lumen of the fang sheath and the surface of the fang..."

page 22:
"...Smooth surface and no enclosed venom canal Colubridae: Coluber, Dasypeltis, Lycodon,
Masticophis, Oligodon, Pituophis,
Philothamnus, Spalerosophis. Dipsadidae: Diadophis, Heterodon,
Hydrodynastes, Hypsiglena. Lamprophiinae: Lamprophis, Lycophidion..."

so did I get it right, that they can not pass the "glands fluid" activ into the body?
They need to chew on the surface and "need some kind of luck" that it will pass against the blood flow?

Stefan
-----
Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

>>
>>so did I get it right, that they can not pass the "glands fluid" activ into the body?
>>They need to chew on the surface and "need some kind of luck" that it will pass against the blood flow?
>>

This is not an impediment to it being delivered. It just requires longer contact time. For their prey capture purposes, this works just fine.

For the vast majority of rear-fanged snakes, even dangerous genera such as Philodryas, something as simple as very light gardening gloves and a long sleeved shirt provide adequate protection. I wouldn't rely on this for a boomslang though!!!
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Venomics Research Laboratory,
Department of Biochemistry,
Bio21 Institute,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

it´s fine to get in contact with an expert

so after reading your post a second time, I have at least 2 more questions:
1. what else did I get wrong?
2. what causes the hognose venom to the human boddy?

looking forward for the answers, because I´m always interested to learn something new.

all the best
Stefan

-----
Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

what causes the hognose venom to the human boddy?
>>

Not sure I understand the question mate.

Cheers
B

sorry, my mistake...sometimes my english break down
I´m interested to know for what kind of prey the hognose venom is made for?
and
what will it cause in the human body? (necrosis, haemolysis...)
-----
Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

>>sorry, my mistake...sometimes my english break down
>>I´m interested to know for what kind of prey the hognose venom is made for?

Their primary prey is amphibians, although some species will take other prey. Very little has been done on their venom but the effects in humans seem to be confined to very minor localised swelling and pain. The boy-genius who let one chew on him for quite some time showed the full extent of the envenomation can affect more of the limb. This was an exceptional case unlikely to be replicated so should be viewed as the full-envelop of the potential effects.

I cannot stress enough that these snakes have been safely kept by 10s of thousands of people and the fact that they are technically venomous does not detract from the fact that they are of only trivial concern from human medical perspective. Their venom was evolved to help with prey handling of very small, non-dangerous prey items.

Cheers
B

>>and
>>what will it cause in the human body? (necrosis, haemolysis...)
>>-----
>>Greetings from Berlin
>>Stefan & Raimo
>>
>>Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Venomics Research Laboratory,
Department of Biochemistry,
Bio21 Institute,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Thanks for visiting the forum Dr.

Reading The Snake Charmer, by Jamie James, mostly for entertainment and out of admiration for Dr. Joe Slowinski, I was fairly shocked by a thesis I was introduced to in that book suggesting that there is no such thing as a purely non-venomous colubrid snake.

Are there examples of colubrid snakes that don't have the potential to cause reactions that could be called envenomation if chemicals from their mouth get into pierced or torn flesh?

In speculation, if a common Garter snake was born with the structural deformity of possessing a hognose snake's rear fangs, but no other abnormalities, would that Garter technically be a venomous snake?

Thanks for the discussion and for sharing that paper!
-----
Adam Schroeder
formerly "hogsandpythons"

Garter snakes possess the glands and there are a couple bites on record of them producing localised swelling. Yet these should be considered as dramatic exceptions to the otherwise completely harmless to human rule.

The advanced snakes that have secondarily lost the glands are those that have switched to a new form of prey capture (such as the ratsnakes, which use constriction) or to egg-eating (e.g. the African egg eating snake, with the elapids the Australian terrestrial genus Brachyurophis has atrophied venom glands in the egg eating species, and within the sea snakes the egg-eating marbled sea snake also has dramatically atrophied glands).

Below is the link to our paper that covers the above
Evolution of an Arsenal

-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Venomics Research Laboratory,
Department of Biochemistry,
Bio21 Institute,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

in my opinion this will not be a problem
Hognoses are no longer rear fanged...they´re Xenodontinae!
-----
Greetings from Berlin
Stefan & Raimo

Reptiles-Breeding-Enterprise.com

Good point Stefan... I have not gone over the entire species list but I do not believe there are any rear fanged colubrids listed in that sub-family...

About the shipping... Like I basically said, certain cicumstances would allow it but it was generally not allowed especially by the average Joe...

Most hubs and stores do not ask any questions anyway...

>>Hognoses are no longer rear fanged...they´re Xenodontinae!

'rear-fanged' was never a natural group but rather was an arbitrary distinction based upon relative enlargement of the rear dentition.

Some of the the Xenodontine snakes in fact have some of the most spectacular rear-fangs out there. So your statement about the no longer being rear-fanged misses the mark widely.

However, as I stressed in the previous posts, hognosed snakes should not be considered 'venomous' from a practical perspective. This is analagous to all spiders being technically venomous, but only handful being of human medical importance.

Cheers
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Venomics Research Laboratory,
Department of Biochemistry,
Bio21 Institute,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

page 10:
"...In some non-front-fanged taxa (e.g. Heterodon) the
venom duct opens directly into the oral cavity rather than to
the lumen of the fang sheath and the surface of the fang

Practical purposes..I agree. But is is a SNAKE, and it has venom. People or companies who are shipping don't care to know the intrical points of envenomation delivery.

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

>>Practical purposes..I agree. But is is a SNAKE, and it has venom. People or companies who are shipping don't care to know the intrical points of envenomation delivery.
>>

Yes but that is a point of education that needs to be addressed about biological variability.
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Venomics Research Laboratory,
Department of Biochemistry,
Bio21 Institute,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

I am wondering why Tricolors were not allowed - does anyone know? That seems arbitrary to me but I am interested to know if there is some reason... other than them being foreigners

Florida Wildlife Commission Definitions effective July 1, 2010

excerpt from Rule 68A-1.004
(94) Venomous reptile – All members of the class Reptilia including their taxonomic successors, subspecies, or any hybrid thereof, regardless of surgical alteration, determined to have the potential to cause serious human injury due to the toxic effects of its venom or poison. Including all venomous reptiles of the class Reptilia belonging to the families Elapidae, Crotalidae, Viperidae, and Hydrophiidae; all reptiles in the genus Heloderma; and all reptiles in the family Colubridae belonging to the genera: Rhabdophis, Boiga, Dispholidus, Thelatornis, and Atractapsis.
Florida Wildlife Commission Definitions effective July 1, 2010

-----
Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

copy and paste this:
https://www.flrules.org/gateway/ruleNo.asp?ID=68A-1.004
-----
Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx