Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My took my blood out today and noticed something on his lip. It wasn't there a few days ago, but since then he's gone into shed, and now he has what appears to be a piece of skin hanging down from beneath his top lip, and it covers part of the area where his tongue comes out, beneath the two heat pits in front. He doesn't like it when I touch it. I'm thinking it is not a big deal, and that I should wait until after he sheds to see if it comes off, but I wanted to see what you guys thought. Should I be worried?

A few weeks back I fed him a rat that I had thrown against the concrete to kill it. I've been doing this a lot, and I could have sworn that he was dead, so I put him in. Once the rat hit the floor he started breathing, but nothing else was happening. The snake was already on the rat by the time I thought to take it out, so I left in there thinking he would be alright. Tank (my blood) started to eat it, thinking it was dead, grabbed the rat on the mouth, but then it started to stuggle. So he started to constrict it with only a small grip on the very tip of the rats nose. I was very worried the rat would be able to bite through his lip or something, but after it was all over he seemed alright, no bleeding in the mouth or anything. This piece of flesh is not from the outside of his mouth, but seems to come from the inside of the top lip.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Derek

Hi Derek -

Without a close up photograph, there's very little anyone could say. Are you sure it's not a tongue shed?

-Joan

Man what is going on here, you know you have to realize that if you are going to post some thing like what you posted regarding slamming some poor rodent against the concrete some one is going to give you s...! for that. There in lies the problem with our young keepers. Every one wants to keep some thing or other, but, there is more to keeping an animal with a beautiful cage, properly heated with humidity at the right level. What about humanely euthanizing the poor feed animal that is about to give its life to feed another.

You guys kill me with your post about slamming a rat against the concrete, and that other one about clipping teeth. Jeez! where is all of this going. There is more to keeping bloods and short tails (and any other critter!), and that includes humanely dispatching your feed charges that you proffer out to your snakes - kids. For god sake!! learn some thing from this. Try C02 or a cervical dislocation, and you won't run into these kinds of problems in the future.

Apologies in advance, but there is not other way to say it.

Tongue shed???

I apologize if I came on too strong, but you have to realize that there is and are other methods available to you to humanely or conscionably dispatch rodents and other food sources. You can pick up a C02 cartridge with a discharge canister, used by pastry chefs or learn to perform a cervical dislocation which to me is just a bad, but, at least it puts the animals out quickly and with little effort and with no chance of getting your reptile injured in the process of feeding them. Talk to Robyn at Proexotic, or Kara at Nerd. Or better yet, try switching it over to frozen thawed. What a "novel idea". Good luck with the blood, hopefully it's nothing.
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One man's fear is another man's fantasy!!

I did not find out until recently that there was a pet store that sold frozen/thawed rats, so I have been purchasing them since the incident. He's already eaten two thawed rats since it happened. I am not going back, and I only killed them in that fashion because it was quick, and I thought painless. I thought they died on impact, or at least lost consciousness, and it is still better than feeding live , for both the rat and the snake.
Either way, I did not enjoy doing it, and I'm glad I found a source that carries frozen rats. I can understand your concern, and I in no way want to convey that snake keepers are inhumane to other animals in order to keep what society generally views as viscious animals.

And no I don't think it is a tongue shed.

Any more ideas?

Derek

Googo, I think your abit harsh and wrong. While co2 would be the ideal method, if a keeper has only 1 or 2 snakes it's just not practical. As for cervical dislocation, while it works great with mice it's not very effective with rats. Most times you will end up with a piece of the skin from the tail in your hand and a live rat in pain. If done properly (a sharp, quick swing of the rat against concrete) it is VERY quick and deadly to the rat. You can't be shy with this method and just do it with authority. As for the shed tongue thing, I just don't know! Take care, Scott.
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Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.
But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
—Martin Luther King Jr

I don't agree with you Scott, as for Cd, I find that the only thing that can go wrong with this method is that you don't do it with enough force and improperly do it and leave the animal paralized and alive (and yes! probably in pain).

Mind you, the only time that I've had to do this was most recently, and I hadn't done it in many years with the advent of frozen rodents available. When I did have to, it was quick, and uneventful. As for painless - I can't honeslty say for sure whether it was for the poor rat as it was rendered imobile almost immediately. In either case - it is true that there aren't many options left to the keeper and that such prescribed methods are not for the lay person. I am not a proponent nor do I adhere to dispatching a rat using such gruesome tactics, as was posted in the initial thread, but what ever works for you. I am not here to critize what others do with their time and husbandry practices, but I will say this, I don't always agree with them and I will voice my views on them when the time comes.

The last thing that we need is some animal rights group pointing the finger at what keepers do, to keep their animals alive and have some new legislation being lobbied to ban the keeping of herps all together because of inhumane practices used to feed herps, by some unscrupulous and senseless keepers.

As for anonyous? I think not! Angel Morales, is the name.
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One man's fear is another man's fantasy!!

hate us already That's alright, I'm not too fond of them myself.
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Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.
But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
—Martin Luther King Jr

You gotta be kidding. Slamming a rat on concrete is so much more humane than what is "natural" that I cannot possibly see what the problem is. Anyone who has watched a snake kill a rat would know that it is a slow, suffocating, terrifying death. Is it inhumane? NO! It is the way nature has ordained things to be. As far as CO2, it is a much slower death also.
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"You have insulted my footwear; my sandals do not like to be laughed at." --Samauri Jack

Conversely speaking!! - you've got to be kidding "me", when you say that you think that the slamming of a rat is the same thing. How can it be the same thing? Care to eloborate Papa? How long have you been euthanizing rodents in this way. And don't tell me that you don't get your hands dirty and blood all over the place doing this, bacause I'm not buying that one from you or any one practicing this kind of euthanasia.
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One man's fear is another man's fantasy!!

I have some reptiles that wont anything but fresh killed.Im a big guy and believe me there is no pain for them.I use an old burlap bag with a garbage bag for a liner.I can slam five at a time this way.It may not be pretty but it works just fine.I just make sure i do it at nite so the neihbors dont freak.

No one told me you could slam them on the ground! Ive been snapping there neck with a hammer! In all seriousness snapping there neck is probably the quickest most painless.....or the most bloody painful experience for the rat. I actually usually feed mine live and monitor him closely becuase hes such an aggressive eater (he has actually snapped there necks on occassion) and I dont need to worry about him. If someone has a problem sorry, its actually the natural process. You all need to stop giving this guy a fricking hard time about how he feeds his snake, and actually attempt to help him with his problem! Im not an expert in the field but if you got some pics for them and made an attempt to look inside his mouth (eehh very causiously) to see if there is a bite inside it would probably help people be able to tell you what to do. Aside from that I guess treat it with betadine and neosporin and see if it doesnt go away.

The neck is indeed the way to go but there is a much cleaner way to do it. Hold the rat/mouse by the tail and let them try to run away. With their legs extended, pin their neck down with a screwdriver/scissors/hemostats/pencil. Push firmly and then pull the tail. This separates the spine and it's over like that. They'll flinch a little as their body has the last-minute reflexes, but it's humane and it's clean (no blood).
Good luck,
Jason

I've been doing it for years for snakes that won't take F/T. As for blood, there is none. I put them in a bag, and wam! they're dead instantly, with no blood or mess of any kind. Stop making assumptions and learn the facts. Suffocation is not a better way to kill quickly.
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"You have insulted my footwear; my sandals do not like to be laughed at." --Samauri Jack

I can slam 5 on the ground at the same time.Sorry for the confusion.

Dear All,

Just for information.

Asphyxiation with CO2 can be grim. High partial pressures of CO2 affect blood chemistry leading to acidosis. This triggers a number of physiological responses including pain, hyperventilation, panic and a feeling of iminent doom. The body is trying to say "There isn't enough air in here, get out! NOW!" This is a defense response to a natural environmental condition and it works pretty well.
Nitrogen gas is a much more insidious asphyxiant. The atmosphere is mostly nitrogen gas and very high partial pressures of nitrogen gas do not occur naturally in the environment. The body, therefore, can't detect it or has learned over time to ignore it. CO2 freely exchanges from the blood into a nitrogen gas atmosphere, acidosis does not occur and the symtoms described above are not expressed. Nitrogen induced hypoxia is not easily detectable, you would simply black out without warning and die.
Nitrogen would be a much more humane asphyxiant for euthanasia than CO2. But be warned, it is dangerous, if your N2 cylinder had a leak YOU might not wake up.

PS I buy mine F/T from a pet shop. The rodents are dispatched using cd administered quickly and humanely by an experienced expert. I would not feel qualified to do the task myself.

Regards,

Peter, Cooljosh's Dad