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a point I would like to make ...

pinstripe15 Jun 27, 2010 04:04 PM

I have a point I would like to make regarding herpetoculture. In defending against the arguments of anti-exotic politicians, we often say that breeding reptiles in captivity is one way to prevent the extinction of these animals. Since reptiles are disappearing across the planet, this is a very penetrating statement for someone who wants to conserve nature.

But is this really what we are doing? Let's look at the ball python, for example. Python regius has been bred en masse for decades, and this popularity has been fueled by the "production" of some very striking morphs, including albinos and leucistics. However, any biologist will tell you that such creatures cannot survive in the wild. Albinos can hardly be exposed to sunlight, or their health is threatened. Other morphs create problems as well; how on earth could a lavender ball python avoid detection by predators if its camouflage has been stripped away? Since many of these traits are recessive, the pythons' offspring wouldn't be any better off, though whether such an animal would live long enough to breed is debatable.

What I am saying is, if ball pythons were to become critically endangered in the wild, how could captive-bred individuals serve the wild populations if the vast majority of them were unable to survive in the wild? A reintroducing program would certainly be a dramatic failure if all of the captive pythons were genetically anomalous.

So is the captive breeding of such species as the ball python, corn snake, king snake, bearded dragon, and leopard gecko really giving us a reservoir of specimens in case wild populations were to become endangered? It would appear not. My point is this: perhaps it is unwise to continually be trying to "engineer" oddball reptiles simply because they are more visually pleasing to someone who cannot appreciate reptiles otherwise. Instead, why not concentrate on exploring "normal" animals for all their ordinary glory? Is a normal ball python really all that bad? And when the wolves come knocking at our doors with things like HR 669, can we really say that professional breeders are aiding conservation?

Best regards,
Pinstripe

Replies (16)

kingofspades Jun 27, 2010 04:22 PM

Sure, some of the morphs we are breeding can't be released into the wild to help wild populations should that need arise, but normal ball pythons will never vanish from the pet trade, as well as morphs that could live in the wild, like yellowbellies, paintballs etc etc.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Watever Jun 27, 2010 04:51 PM

Nope

The only thing is that the more it's captive that are breed and sold in the pet industry (pet store etc...), should minimize the number of imports. If you import less, there should be more in the wild population to help maintain it.

But that's about it.

And the question should be : Is selling captive animals in the pet trade really help minimize the imports ? Or is the captive breeding increase the popularity of those and in the inverse, increase the number of cheap imports ?

The link between captive breeding and imports is not necessarily true. Have there been any research on this ?
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love this world, don't hate it.

mrtigger Jun 27, 2010 05:13 PM

Alot of people breed the "normals". I always see beautiful Normals at every show and they are great for people to become educated learning about conservation and Herpetoculture. I also believe that the industry has promoted and encourages captive bred instead of wild caught.

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Jeff Davis
1.0 Norm Royal Python(Rescue)
1.0 Albino Ball Python (high contrast)
2.0 Shi Tzus
1.0 Pug
0.1 Lovely Wife

boaphile Jun 27, 2010 05:15 PM

Our interest in these animals alone increases the understanding and experience of those around us that we bump into within our daily lives about these wonderful creatures. Most of us have done school programs educating kids hands on about the wonders of nature we possess and care for ourselves. The extremists do not do this at all and in fact take the stance that would mean the complete elimination of this possibility and thus reduce the interest in and education of others about our natural world. In that sense we absolutely ARE conservationists.

The notion that conservation means the eventual reintroduction of captive Reptiles is void of an understanding of how that process works. Reintroduction of captive Reptiles has never happened anywhere. In fact the reintroduction of any species is exceedingly rare. That possibility is virtually non-existent as such a reintroduction could spread disease unknown to other wild populations.

So while you are entirely correct that a Banana Ball would not do well in Kenya, there is nobody that would advocate trying to do so. So that is a moot point.

The fact is that while some Reptiles may in fact someday be extinct in the wild, if we are allowed to keep and breed those animals, they will live on in captive collections for the masses to enjoy in the future.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

prprjp Jun 28, 2010 07:34 PM

Virgin isle boas and Aniguan racers are at least two snake species that have been reintroduced to the wild from captive bred stock. I believe the smooth snake has too. Species of Cyclura have also been bred in captivity and reintroduced. Probably other species as well, although it is very uncommon as you indicate.

I agree 100% on the value of keeping snakes in captivity as an educational and thus conservation tool.
Ryan

jason Jun 27, 2010 05:42 PM

Would we know as much as we do about the captive propogation of these animals if it weren't for the genetic mutations that drive breeders to create the next big thing? Highly unlikely. We owe a great deal of our knowledge on the species to the "freaks". And, as was already pointed out, reintroduction programs using CB animals, especially multigenerational captive animals, are exceedingly rare. If ball pythons were to go extinct in the wild, what would be the reason? If it was something like massive habitat loss, there would be no reason to reintroduce them anyway. By keeping and breeding them, we ensure that:

A-the demand for WC animals is decreased, and
B-there will always be that species of animal alive on the planet, in all it's various paint jobs, for people to enjoy.

And two more points I want to make-Just about anyone who breeds ball pythons ends up with normals every season, and they're not going anywhere any time soon, and while it is unusual, I remember back in the day, before ranchers in Africa looked for anything remotely odd on farm hatched babies, that those fancy morphs were imported into the country as WC adults or subadults, so some of those animals do survive. In fact, I seem to remember a large breeder importing a gravid female lavendar albino some years ago.
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www.cafepress.com/jbartolettherps

Bolitochrome Jun 27, 2010 05:57 PM

Furthermore, I have heard that there are programs where the exporters in Africa are breeding Ball Pythons in captivity. They keep the strange babies for export loads and release the the normals back into the wild. Albeit, this is hearsay, but it makes good ecological and economic sense for them to be doing so.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

pinstripe15 Jun 27, 2010 07:56 PM

Thanks for all of your replies. I enjoyed learning about this issue, that is why I posted. Also, thank you very much for being cool-headed, I wasn't sure how regius fans would respond.

Best regards,
pinstripe

kingofspades Jun 27, 2010 09:33 PM

No one mentioned the fact that the ball python import trade in Ghana is highly regulated as well.
There is a set number of imports allowed, a set number of eggs allowed to be caught etc etc.
I don't think, barring a natural disaster, that the ball python populations are in any trouble.
-----
"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

JLSReptiles2011 Jun 28, 2010 09:06 AM

Something I would like to point out.... I read on some breeders site that is noteable or from some reliable source, I can't remember where, that if there was an albino, lavender albino or any of the various morphs that would stick out like a sore thumb in the wild they would still survive. Because of the fact of them being nocturnal. If they would not have survived in the wild then the many morphs that were WC and now are captive breeders simply would not have made it to the USA because they never would have survived in the wild, which means they would have never existed because a predator would have killed them. Does that make sense?

snakesatsunset Jun 27, 2010 08:45 PM

Well considering most morphs, albinos, pieds, caramels, pastels, stripes, ghosts, axanthics, and almost all others were found in all stages of life in the WILD. I have seen 4ft male Pieds come in with ticks and scars straight from benin.
I have seen over 3 dozen wc ADULT albinos.
Bob Clarks LAVENDAR albino was wc and GRAVID.
They can survive....they do not live above ground or come out during day....simple as that.

jeff favelle Jun 27, 2010 10:56 PM

Ball Pythons are going to become extinct because of loss of habitat, not because of not having enough founding stock to repopulate the wild.

Also, ANY ecologist will tell you that its a biological no-no to introduce even animals of the SAME species into new areas as little as a few miles away. This puts a halting stop to ANY CB Ball Pythons as being valid candidates for re-introduction into the wild. Its why every single nature book tells you to release an amimal EXACLTY where you found it. Human-made gene drift is a BAD thing.

vmartino Jun 28, 2010 02:40 PM

I do not think you will hear many people on these forums arguing that they are breeding their snakes as a means of providing a captive population that can be reintroduced if the species becomes in danger of extinction. Most do it because they love the way the animals look, and love the act of breeding. It an amazingly fun experiment in genetics! As for saying that WE DO NOT HELP AT ALL... thats going too far. Even though many of the morphs we produce would not survive in the wild, there are tens of thousands of normal ball pythons and normals het for some recessive gene that COULD survive in the wild. I do not see where you are going with this...
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Vince Martino

EvilMorphgod Jun 28, 2010 04:28 PM

Ball Pythons would be a poor example of your argument. MANY crazy mutations could live in the wild. First off, Python regius is big time nocturnal. Albinos and such could and would survive! Secondly, they can also handle the sun almost as well as a normal since they may not exactly be seeing long term sun exposure (nocturnal). ALbinos such as Albino Water monitors can live in the wild and we are talking a sun worshipping lizard.

As far as reintroduction of Ball Pythons we could do it but have no present need. We understand so much more about this species since we have basically worked out many of the kinks in their care. There are however species that justify reintroduction. Let's say Pinesnakes in some of their former haunts. The first thing is to utilize a reptile breeder and their knowledge on breeding colubrids/pinesnakes. Let's say Bart Bruno, an expert in my book! His knowledge and understanding far exceeds any biologist studying them and he would be the BEST way to create and maintain animals for release. His experience is quite valuable since his original drive was based on his love for the species. The true experts at the keeping and breeding of reptiles most likely lies in the private sector. People that love the species and learn many of the animal's secrets are the key.

NOT THE BIOLOGIST that may be the ones trying to reintroduce them back into the wild.

There are endless points to why keeping and breeding reptiles is GOOD, and far less that are negative!

Having retarded politicians talk about the keeping and breeding of reptiles is like listening to a first grader sucking his thumb and explaining quantum physics! They don't understand why we even like animals!!! Let them explain why so many of them are corrupt and why they want to make so much money. How can they justify that they are worth their weight in HorseSheet?

This country is suffering from these stuffed shirts...

GRrrr.......

SATAN - Hell does not even want these wastes!
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

JLSReptiles2011 Jun 29, 2010 07:10 AM

Yeah, I commented on morphs not being able to survive either. I said they are nocturnal and their colors wouldn't make a difference if they lived or died. If it did then great base morphs we have now wouldn't exist because their WC forefathers and mothers would have been predated on. Yeah, some of the morphs may have been eaten, but I they had just as good odds as normals because of being nocturnal. Now if the BP glowed in the dark then it would probably be screwed. Corns and rats on the other hand are diurnal and would definitely would be at greater risk of predation with all the morphs there are.

dustyrhoads Jul 01, 2010 12:25 AM

>>I have a point I would like to make regarding herpetoculture. In defending against the arguments of anti-exotic politicians, we often say that breeding reptiles in captivity is one way to prevent the extinction of these animals. Since reptiles are disappearing across the planet, this is a very penetrating statement for someone who wants to conserve nature.
>>
>>But is this really what we are doing?

Yes, that is an excuse we often hear for take from the wild and breeding. But as much as some like to tell themselves that we're doing this, no hobbyist or commercial breeder who I know of has done a single thing to prevent extinction in the wild (other than vowing to sell captive-bred only and instilling a love for the animals in others). Telling ourselves that captive breeding for the pet trade is beneficial to that end is just kidding ourselves.

>>My point is this: perhaps it is unwise to continually be trying to "engineer" oddball reptiles simply because they are more visually pleasing to someone who cannot appreciate reptiles otherwise. Instead, why not concentrate on exploring "normal" animals for all their ordinary glory? Is a normal ball python really all that bad? And when the wolves come knocking at our doors with things like HR 669, can we really say that professional breeders are aiding conservation?

Here's why breeding "normals" will do nothing to help conservation biologists: because it is MUCH more complicated than just producing 'normals'. Successful headstarting programs for snakes is practically non-existent. It's barely in its infancy as a research field. It is something that only scientists with a higher education in population genetics, evolutionary biology, and ecology can pursue with any degree of hope for success. Even then, it would take some incredible amounts of work from skilled reptile veterinary pathologists to ensure that captive stock aren't introducing foreign microorganisms to the wild stock. Can you imagine the logistics involved in such an endeavor?

Case in point: Producing mere normals would not be enough, not by a long shot -- you have to produce specimens that are phenotypically AND genetically similar to the population they are released into. For instance, Panther Canyon Trans-Pecos Ratsnakes look different than Trans-Pecos from just a couple of miles' walking distance to the east. In order to ensure even the slightest chance of survival for snakes released, you have to make sure that the Panther Canyon locality receives an actual Panther Canyon suboc. Otherwise, all of your hard work will be in vain -- natural selection will weed out each of the snakes you worked so hard to prepare for reintroduction, and this holds true even if their progenitors evolved in a canyon only a mile or two away from where you are releasing them.

You also have to find out approximately how many wild Trans-Pecos Rats are in the immediate area. With organisms that are as elusive and well-hidden as snakes, assessing this amount can be very hard to do with any accuracy. You also have to mathematically find out how much habitat, food, water, and other resources are available. Releasing a single animal in an area that already has six snakes and can only support six does no good.

It's hard enough to do with native species -- organisms whose locality types we often can learn by taking drives in our cars through their habitats with fellow herpers, a very few of whom may actually breed those specific locality types. And you have to know the locality types down to exact geographic spots, say within a quarter-mile or less, depending on the species and their home range with respect to the immediate geography. Some species, like Xantusia, never leave their Yucca log they live underneath their entire lives. Getting this kind of exact locality knowledge about exotic species of herps is practically impossible!

No one, to my knowledge, is breeding exotic species of ANY herps down to the locality of the exact creek, wash, canyon, or mile. And this is exactly what would be needed -- just the TIP of the iceberg of the enormous efforts it would take to conserve species in the wild via reintroduction.

This is why, as so many ecologists and evolutionary biologists have told us before, that preserving and/or restoring habitat in the first place is the MUCH cheaper, MUCH simpler, MUCH more effective method of conservation. As EO Wilson said, the so-called 'ark method of conservation' will never work. It is far too expensive, far too complicated, and far too ineffective to do any good.

Thanks for posting this. It's an important topic that interests me, and one that more than a few herpetoculturists are unfortunately mistaken about.

*For those who are interested, below is a link to one of the only researchers I know of who is tackling this issue of reintroducing herps into the wild for conservation.

DR
Prof. Richard B. King - Faculty of NIU - Ecology/E

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