Reptile & Amphibian Forums

okay, so i was wondering how i am supposed to tell what breeders/sellers here on kingsnake are selling PURE pituophis ruthveni? any help on this please? i am really interested in this species, but what am i supposed to look out for?
are there papers that can prove the seller is reputable?

Good question but you probably won't get any good answers...and once you do you'll probably find out they were wrong ...it seems to be like an onion ...the b.s., confusion and obfuscation comes in layers. And half the problem seems to be that even people who honestly think they have pure don't. It's a cryin' shame really.
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See all my snakes at SerpenTrack.com

I have been breeding and collecting snakes for about 54 years and that is a million dollare question. At this point I would say the only way to know that you have 100% pure ruthveni is to catch them yourself...which is pretty certain you won't be able to do becasue they are so rare. With that being said, there are those in the business who have taken a lot of precautions and do have "pure" lines. You will have to be like everyone else, do your homework. Part of the problem is this: I purchased my stock through a pretty reputable person who assured me that they where 100% pure ruthveni. He purchased his stock though a person who also assured him that they were 100% "ruthveni". Now, when I get ready to sell some of my offspring, the person I purchased from cannot and willnot (and rightly so) verify that what I am selling is 100% pure. The buyer will just have to take my word on it. And this is done time and time again. So..the truth is...UNLESS YOU HAVE WILD CAUGHT ANIMALS...THE ONLY GUARANTEE THAT ONE CAN GIVE IS THE GURANTEE OF THE WORD OF THE ONE YOU PURCHASED IT FROM. As previously stated...that person cannot guarantee animals that he had know control over after he sold them. Believe me, there are many other factors involved as well that muddy up the waters. I think part of the problem is many of us have a pre-conceived idea of what we think a ruthveni should look like...and if it doesn't meet those pre-concieved looks, we call it a hybrid. In 54 years I have seen two actual wild caught ruthveni and about a half dozen pictures of wild ruthveni. Now, I've seen hundreds of animals and pictures of so called ruthveni, but I cannot say that they were pure ruthveni...I just don't know. So, my basis on what I call a pure ruthveni is based basically on about eight specimens. Most of the ones I have seen in captivity do not look like those. Again, ruthveni may vary over its range. Now, when I purchased mine, they looked pretty much what you normally see in captive "ruthveni". But low and behold, when I bred them, I got several different looking morphs, some like the wild ones I had seen and some more like the cpative animals I see. My feelings on this subject is this...this is a hobby...something I get tremendous pleasure from doing...it is NOT SCIENTIFIC EXPIREMENTATION...so if it quaks like a duck..swims like a duck...walks like aduck...looks like a duck..then I have a duck. That is about as close of a guarantee you can get on ruthveni...unless you go back to point one...go catch your own!!!!

Dan

thank you so much! i really appreciate all of this help, but i was afraid that would be the answer. dont get me wrong, i love researching and observing these animals as a hobby, not for a scientific experimentation. i have read a ton of articles, books, and believe me, i have done my research. i thought maybe you could tell by the markings on their bodies? i know you wouldnt know for sure unless it was bred, but is that okay?

but i just wanted to make sure there wasnt a sure way to guarantee the purity of the species that i was going to buy. i know there is not really a way to tell, but do you guys know any reputable breeders of this species?

I guess what really becomes the "catch" in all of this is the phrase "guarantee pure ruthveni bloodlines." Like everything else, what does a "guarantee" mean and what is it really worth? If you read between the lines, all most people really "guarantee" is that they were told that what they purchased was "pure ruthveni" and will guarantee what they are selling is "pure ruthveni"! So, in actuality, the only thing being "gauranteed" is the persons word. How would you prove that a animal is or is not "pure ruthveni"? If you PROVE that it is not "pure ruthveni" what are your options? You have none! So, anyone guaranteeing their stock as "pure ruthveni" are doing so only on the word of someone else...unless that stock originated from or are actual wild caught animals. I cannot guarantee the animals I sell are "pure ruthveni", because I cannot prove it. Do I believe them to be so? Yes...based on what little information that I have concerning "ruthveni". Again, there are many breeders of "ruthveni" on here. Only one or two have stock that came from actual wild caught animals. Many others have purchased from them, so their animals are good also. But, anything removed from the wild caught animal loses it's "guarantee" as pure ruthveni." Doesn't mean that it isn't pure, it just can't be guaranteed. I hope this helps. There are plenty of LA pines out there that would be difficult to prove or dispprove their purity. Thus, what I previously referred to as hobbiest acceptance vs scientific proof.

Dan

LA Pines do have features or phenotypical expressions that classify them as ruthveni. I am not sure of the specifics, but there should be several articles and papers on the subject you can search on line. Hopefully some of the pit folks will chime in on this subject. Keep in mind MANY wild type animals change in looks with only one or two generations in captivitiy. Not sure if its the lack of being subjected to the variables in nature such as temp changes, sunlight, etc., but most wild types "clean up" when captive bred. This ads further confusion when looking at captive bred animals that are pure, but still look different than a fresh wild caught animal.

When dealing with LA Pines, its definitely buyer beware!! There are several reputable pituophis breeders who work with LA Pines. Check around on this forum and in the classifieds.

Best of Luck!!

thank you! i had no idea this can be so complicated, but i will definitely check out the classifieds!
any tips though on raising this species?

They are no different than any other bull, pine, gopher snake, or even corn or king in respect to care from what I can tell. A friend of mine has his in his snake room in a rack system with his other bulls and corns.

hmmmmmm okay. well this would be the only snake, wouldn't have to worry about any other species. i was thinking a 4 x 2 x 18in bin? with aspen, heat pad, water dish, etc. i am really excited about this, but i might have to wait until next february (mom isnt too keen on having snakes back into the house again.) she likes my fish a lot more hahaha but ive got plenty of time to get everything together, talk to breeders, and ask more questions. thanks!

You also need to be ready to pay some money for one or for a pair. LAs are in many cases the highest priced Pituophis you can get. Before I got my pair, I had kept many Bulls and Pines before, so I knew how to care for them and was very comfortible with the genus. So the question is, how comfortible are you with keeping Pits? They his, snap and are not always calm- yes that can be said for other snakes but Pits are impressive about it- and thats why I love them. So do your research about Pits in general first on line and in books, a favorite of mine is a very simple and very upfront book called " The professinal Keeper's Guide to Bullsnakes, Pinesnakes and Gopher Snakes" by Kenneth Kelly. Its short, inexpensive and it works.

but i have seen some single males being sold for $125? is that too low? and yes, i am comfortable with their attitude. from my experiences though, most of them are very good bluffers. i know what im getting myself into, but i will definitely check out that book!

yes on average that IS to low and I would be unsure of their liniage, I have not seen one for below 200 and I have only bought them after talking with the seller a good bit. The more the seller can tell you about the background of his/her animals the better.
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Boa: 1 Hogg Island, Bulls: 3 normal, 1 Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada, 1 Kingsville, TX Red, 1 MN, Corns: 2 Okeetee, SC, Foxes: 2 Western, Gophers: 2 Sonoran, Cochise Co. AZ, Kings: 1 Black Eastern (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, 4 Coastal CA, 2 NC Eastern Chains- (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.), 1 Gray Banded 'Blair's', 3 Speckled, Harris Co. & Liberty Co. TX, Pines: 2 Northerns (M from NC, F from SC), 2 Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), 1 Southern, Pythons: 3 Ball, Rats: 2 Black, Henderson Co. NC, 1 White Sided, 1 Albino Black, 1 Western Green, Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ, 11 Tarantulas, 130 Orchid plants, 40 assorted Tropical plants and violets, 3 Freshwater Planted Aquariums with West African Dwarf Cichlids